UFC 115 - Discussion

Zero-Cool

UFC 115 - 12th June

Any thoughts or predictions? Any good money worth being put down?

Particularly looking forward to Cro Cop v Barry. Would like to see Cro Cop take it but I can see Barry destroying him

Here is the preview show:

http://mmalinker.com/videos/view/31181/UFC_115__LIDDELL_VS_FRANKLIN_PREVIEW_SHOW

Main card

• Light Heavyweight bout: Chuck Liddell vs. Rich Franklin[1]
• Heavyweight bout: Mirko Cro Cop Filipovic vs. Patrick Barry[1]
• Welterweight bout: Paulo Thiago vs. Martin Kampmann[1]
• Heavyweight bout: Ben Rothwell vs. Gilbert Yvel[1]
• Welterweight bout: Carlos Condit vs. Rory MacDonald[1]

(Thanks wiki)

callaway92

Franklin
Cro Cop
Thiago
Yvel
Condit

Only 1 i'm worried about is Yvel gassing, but other than that I think i'm right. This has the makings of a very exciting card

Catsmokinpot

Looks like a decent card, I think Barry is going to get his ass handed to him.

Stuffy

Paulo Tiago to win is a very solid bet.

I wouldn't be surprised if Yvel and Rothwell both gassed, Franklin will prob outwork Liddell aswell and win.

Cro Cop is a can now, it could go either way and will prob end in a TKO for someone

Trashbat

To be honest this card doesn't fill me with excitement. I haven't been impressed by Franklin lately and Chuck probably should not be in a ring. Neither provide the level of promise such a fight would have had a few years back.

As much as I Love Cro Cop, I think UFC are just trying to run down his contract now. I'd love to see him kick someone in the head again, but i dont think thats gonna happen on this outing.

This one could be dull. Thiago against Kampmann has potential, but i only see it going one wat tbh.

Zero-Cool

Trashbat wrote: »

As much as I Love Cro Cop, I think UFC are just trying to run down his contract now. I'd love to see him kick someone in the head again, but i dont think thats gonna happen on this outing.

Exactly! It shows him in the preview giving a target a head kick but can guarantee he won't throw one in the fight.

Professey Chin

This is Mirkos last fight on his contract so who knows what'll happen depending on his performance

sheehy83 wrote: »

Exactly! It shows him in the preview giving a target a head kick but can guarantee he won't throw one in the fight.

I think we might since he has zero ground game to worry about in this fight

rovert

Here is the preview pushing stand up wars and Berry in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUpuI3qkTqw

Chuck Liddell vs. Rich Franklin= Franklin: Chuck should just stay away from the octagon these days. It's worrying how bad his speech is.
Mirko Filipovic vs. Patrick Barry= Cro Cop: Barry isn't great and even half of the old Cro Cop could smash him.
Paulo Thiago vs. Martin Kampmann= Thiago: Will be nice to see a bit of grappling on the card with these guys so good at it. Think Thiago will take it.
Ben Rothwell vs. Gilbert Yvel= Yvel: Both of these guys are coming off a loss to guys who are on rolls atm so should be interesting because they're fighting for their jobs.
Carlos Condit vs. Rory MacDonald= Condit: Expecting a submission match up early on. Condit to take it by experience.

unknown13

Deleted User wrote: »

Paulo Thiago vs. Martin Kampmann= Thiago: Will be nice to see a bit of grappling on the card with these guys so good at it. Think Thiago will take it.

This aint hitting the ground Kampmann struggles against decent strikers and this fight is going to be a longer repeat of the marquardt and daley fights. Tiago KO's him in the second or third round

pablohoney87

These days franklin really annoys me. He said the exact same thing about pretty much all his fights since he lost the title.
Always mentions how his opponent slows down as the fight goes on and he speeds up.

MarkFairman

I know its a bit out there. But I think Cro Cop could win this one on the ground. He ground game is not too bad and has won by submission before.

While Barrys is pretty much non existant,

They are both strikers but Cro Cop has been working on his ground for longer.....and seeing as he can barely kick these days maybe looking to take this to the ground and surprise people would be a good strategy.

Will it happpen? probably not

Professey Chin

pablohoney87 wrote: »

These days franklin really annoys me. He said the exact same thing about pretty much all his fights since he lost the title.
Always mentions how his opponent slows down as the fight goes on and he speeds up.

Its pretty accurate though.He does have really good cardio

Zero-Cool

Cro Cop needs a big win for the UFC to make up a new contract but I don't think UFC or Cro Cop wants a new contract. Never know, he might be explosive in the fight and surprise everyone but most likely will struggle against Barry

pablohoney87

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

Its pretty accurate though.He does have really good cardio

He does have good cardio but the way he says it it sounds like pacing himself rather than good cardio. Not disagreeing but it seems like they could just tape an interview with him once and play it on each countdown.

scudzilla

I was gonna go for Rich by decision but then i just saw this!!!!!!





Chuck is lookin ripped, no longer has a beer belly but a full blown six pack, Dana has said he looks the best he's ever seen him.

Chuck by 1st round KO

Gitb1

scudzilla wrote: »

I was gonna go for Rich by decision but then i just saw this!!!!!!





Chuck is lookin ripped, no longer has a beer belly but a full blown six pack, Dana has said he looks the best he's ever seen him.

Chuck by 1st round KO

Chuck without the belly looks weird!

Was not expecting him to be in the shape for this fight or ever again for that matter

scudzilla

Gitb1 wrote: »

Chuck without the belly looks weird!

Was not expecting him to be in the shape for this fight or ever again for that matter

Maybe he's had the wake up call and realises he's got 1 shot left.

He looks fcukin scarey in that pic

DrPhilG

Chuck's been at the photoshop!!!

fakearms123

I actually disagree with people's choice of Rich Franklin beating Chuck by decision, and not because of Chuck's new six pack but because of Chuck's new motivation, i think Tito saying all those things about Chuck being an alcho and stuff was the best thing to revive his career, i think he will finish Rich Franklin early and then they will give him Tito who he will finish as well, he won't make it anywhere near the top 5 guys but I would love to see him fight Rogerio Nogueira, that would be an amazing fight!

SuperWoody101

rovert

The ballroom dancing paid off.

Noffles

Holy **** .... Chuck looks incredibly fit....!!! I would of tipped Franklin for this one as Chuck has been knocked out a little too often lately but if he's that fit and that prepared then I think he CAN take Franklin.. and hope he does!

Shame it wasn't Tito though, but in reality I'm sure Tito would of found some reason if he's seen these images, not to fight!

pablohoney87

All those naked workouts have paid off

TechnoPool

whats up with the toe nails painted black? i saw kyle noke had it done in his last fight on TUF aswell

mailburner

chucks been out far too long

for me it'll be thiago and franklin

think itllb be an easy win for thiago.
when he knocked out swick and koshchek
its very hard to see kampmann troubling him and
a ud for franklin imo

SuperWoody101

Just watched the countdown show and I am pumped for the Barry/Cro Cop fight. Must get some beers in for this one.

fakearms123

Actually Chuck has been painting his toe nails black for years now, don't really know what it means, maybe its just a good luck thing, Kyle Noke is on chuck liddell team so he is probably just following suit

DrPhilG

fakearms123 wrote: »

Actually Chuck has been painting his toe nails black for years now, don't really know what it means, maybe its just a good luck thing, Kyle Noke is on chuck liddell team so he is probably just following suit

I think he said in his book that he just took a notion to do it and why the hell shouldn't he. Fair enuff...

cardio,shoot me

im surpised how many people think barry is going to lose, his stand up is streets ahead of cro cops current stand up. on the ground its cro cops, but i doubt he'll try to go there out of pride, barry by tko.

paulieeye

DrPhilG wrote: »

I think he said in his book that he just took a notion to do it and why the hell shouldn't he. Fair enuff...

no one's gonna call him a pussy for doing it anyway

SuperWoody101

paulieeye wrote: »

no one's gonna call him a pussy for doing it anyway

He is a pussy for doing it

I don't care what he does as long as we see a good fight I am happy.

evil_seed

i'm not a huge franklin fan tbh, and don't know too much about him either. Has he the power to trouble chuck? i think chuck had the power, and looks to still have the power to knock out anybody.

Oh_Noes

Very excited about this card, IMO Franklin/Liddell is a much better matchup than Ortiz. People will argue about the relevance of the main event to the top of the division, but in reality, we haven't seen the Ice Man since his little run of being knocked out, maybe the lay-off has helped him get his sh1t together. Whatever happens, they're both going to stand and trade, I don't think I've seen Franklin in a boring fight to date.

Hoping to see some good stuff from CroCop too, Barry is a very under-rated opponent and a past-prime CroCop is still a very good fighter.

Preliminary card (Spike TV)

• Lightweight bout: Tyson Griffin vs. Evan Dunham[1]
• Lightweight bout: Mac Danzig vs. Matt Wiman[1]

Griffin/Dunham should be very interesting, wasn't too long ago people were talking about Griffin as a title contender, but Dunham is no slouch. These new Spike TV prelim shows haven't disappointed in the past. They seem to match up guys who are going to put on a show so that people will scramble to buy the main card. Anyone heard of the Korean Zombie? :pac:

Professey Chin

evil_seed wrote: »

i'm not a huge franklin fan tbh, and don't know too much about him either. Has he the power to trouble chuck? i think chuck had the power, and looks to still have the power to knock out anybody.

Power probably not.Doesnt rely on 1 shot KOs.Although Chuck can't rely on his chin like he used to
Speed,technique and tactics.He destroys Chuck on every one of those.

fakearms123

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

Power probably not.Doesnt rely on 1 shot KOs.Although Chuck can't rely on his chin like he used to
Speed,technique and tactics.He destroys Chuck on every one of those.

I dont agree with this, Rich Franklin does have power, the guy is a bull, very strong, he has 14 KO/TKO wins in his career, he has consistently fought the best fighters in the world at both middleweight or catchweights which includes Lyoto Machida, Dan Henderson and Anderson Silva twice.

Chuck may have lost his chin because back in the day he took some huge hits and kept on coming so that might play into it.

How does rich destroy chuck on speed, technique and tactics?
Rich's foot movement may be quicker than Chucks but Chuck throws punches a lot faster than Rich.
Technique, Rich doesnt come from the same type of background as Chuck, Chuck has a very strong background in wrestling (college division 1) and a 5th Degree Black Belt in Kenpō Karate which also translates over to his kickboxing, Rich might have better jiu jitsu, he has a higher ranked belt and more submissions in his career.

Now tactics Rich should have the upper hand because Chuck doesn't have a game plan, the reason Chuck has lost his last few fights is because of his tactics, mma is evolving and Chuck didnt, and he got knocked out, you cant rely on power, id imagine he has learnt that on his time off

TechnoPool

well all of frankin's loss's bar 1 have come agaist superior strikers like Silva, Belfort and Machida , and i think while franklin may have an advantage in chuck if a few other area's i can see chuck winning the stand up and Ko'ing him.

I also think Chuck has been in with a slightly better opposition in his career.

Professey Chin

fakearms123 wrote: »

I dont agree with this, Rich Franklin does have power, the guy is a bull, very strong, he has 14 KO/TKO wins in his career, he has consistently fought the best fighters in the world at both middleweight or catchweights which includes Lyoto Machida, Dan Henderson and Anderson Silva twice.

Chuck may have lost his chin because back in the day he took some huge hits and kept on coming so that might play into it.

How does rich destroy chuck on speed, technique and tactics?
Rich's foot movement may be quicker than Chucks but Chuck throws punches a lot faster than Rich.
Technique, Rich doesnt come from the same type of background as Chuck, Chuck has a very strong background in wrestling (college division 1) and a 5th Degree Black Belt in Kenpō Karate which also translates over to his kickboxing, Rich might have better jiu jitsu, he has a higher ranked belt and more submissions in his career.

Now tactics Rich should have the upper hand because Chuck doesn't have a game plan, the reason Chuck has lost his last few fights is because of his tactics, mma is evolving and Chuck didnt, and he got knocked out, you cant rely on power, id imagine he has learnt that on his time off

Compared to Chuck he'd have less power.Im not saying he doesn't have KO power but I think he has less chance of KOing Chuck with one shot then the other way around.

His foot movement is much better then Chucks when it comes to creating angles and moving around and I think his hand speed is higher too.I havn't seen a good example of hand speed from Chuck since he fought Tito.Franklin has constantly shown an ability to combine his hand speed with foot work and land shots quickly before moving away if needed.

Technique wise its difficult to judge on ground work since we dont see liddell there very often(besides a crazy ability to get back up) but in stand-up I think Rich beats him again.He has a very strong clinch game(obviously AS is much betters but that shouldnt take away from Rich),keeps his hands up,uses a large variety of punch combinations,constantly creates angles,uses leg kicks to set up his hands and has a very strong body kick he can use as an offensive and defensive weapon.
Liddells technique has been the same for years and shows no signs of improving or changing.Very flat footed,circles right or goes straight forward,has strong punches but over relys on big shots,hands low and doesnt use his kicks often but they almost seem forced when he does.

When it comes to tactics, I don't see Chuck learning.He's had the same game plan for the last 7 years and even with a long layoff I dont see that changing.The only difference he's made in recent fights was going for a takedown but then he did nothing with them.I even remember Hackleman giving the one against Wandy a stupid name,blitz or something.

sonic.trip

my money is on franklin, cro cop and condit.

fakearms123

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

His foot movement is much better then Chucks when it comes to creating angles and moving around and I think his hand speed is higher too.I havn't seen a good example of hand speed from Chuck since he fought Tito.Franklin has constantly shown an ability to combine his hand speed with foot work and land shots quickly before moving away if needed.

Chuck does have tendency to put weight on that leading leg which makes his movement less fluid but this isn't a dancing competition (no pun intended) although I do think that dancing has helped with his movement, but there is no denying that Chuck has faster hands, you dont have to look back at the Tito fight for that it was evident in the Wand fight and he was beating Rashad up until that KO, rashad hands are just a little bit faster, watch the replay of the KO, you can see Chucks punch wasnt far behind.

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

Technique wise its difficult to judge on ground work since we dont see liddell there very often(besides a crazy ability to get back up) but in stand-up I think Rich beats him again.He has a very strong clinch game(obviously AS is much betters but that shouldnt take away from Rich),keeps his hands up,uses a large variety of punch combinations,constantly creates angles,uses leg kicks to set up his hands and has a very strong body kick he can use as an offensive and defensive weapon.
Liddells technique has been the same for years and shows no signs of improving or changing.Very flat footed,circles right or goes straight forward,has strong punches but over relys on big shots,hands low and doesnt use his kicks often but they almost seem forced when he does.

That crazy ability to get back up shows that his ground game is top notch, I mean how many other fighters can you count that can get back up to their feet within 13 seconds, thats the average time it takes him to get back to his feet, how many times have we seen guys laying and praying on a guy for 3 rounds *cough* Jon Fitch *cough* and they cant get back up to save their life, that shows that he has a great ground game, can you imagine if he used his wrestling in offense to take guys down, he took down wand whenever he tried in that fight and wand has some of the best takedown defense.

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

When it comes to tactics, I don't see Chuck learning.He's had the same game plan for the last 7 years and even with a long layoff I dont see that changing.The only difference he's made in recent fights was going for a takedown but then he did nothing with them.I even remember Hackleman giving the one against Wandy a stupid name,blitz or something.

Yes Chuck has bad tactics in fights but they say you are as good as your last fight, Chuck wasn't doing too bad against Shogun, the punch from Shogun wasn't something that would usually knock Chuck down in the past. Rich on the other hand usually has good tactics but he tends to brawl a lot with guys and it didnt take much of a connection for Vitor to put him away, plus the Wand fight could have gone either way.

Professey Chin

fakearms123 wrote: »

Chuck does have tendency to put weight on that leading leg which makes his movement less fluid but this isn't a dancing competition (no pun intended) although I do think that dancing has helped with his movement, but there is no denying that Chuck has faster hands, you dont have to look back at the Tito fight for that it was evident in the Wand fight and he was beating Rashad up until that KO, rashad hands are just a little bit faster, watch the replay of the KO, you can see Chucks punch wasnt far behind.

That dancing might have helped in his movement in training but I think we'll still see the same flat feet when he's actually fighting.The Wandy fight came down to a mix between his size,reach and technique(compared to Wands full on windmill punches) combined with the speed he does have.I also don't think he was beating Rashad at all.He was being frustrated by Rashads movement and kept coming forward which never suits him.Rashad was landing quick shots at will that entire fight.I cant even remember any meaningful offense he mounted.His uppercut wasn't far behind but he also started the wind up before Evans flashed the jab.Evans has fast hands but not fast enough to fire a short jab and a KO overhand right before most fighters are finished throwing 1 punch.Those wind ups cost him before and will cost him again.

That crazy ability to get back up shows that his ground game is top notch, I mean how many other fighters can you count that can get back up to their feet within 13 seconds, thats the average time it takes him to get back to his feet, how many times have we seen guys laying and praying on a guy for 3 rounds *cough* Jon Fitch *cough* and they cant get back up to save their life, that shows that he has a great ground game, can you imagine if he used his wrestling in offense to take guys down, he took down wand whenever he tried in that fight and wand has some of the best takedown defense.

That shows 1 aspect of his ground game is top notch since thats the only 1 we see.Granted its the most important one for how he fights but we dont know about his guard,submission defense/offense,top control because he never uses it so thats why it cant really be compared all around to Franklins since we have seen Franklin in every situation. He took Wand down twice in the 3rd round if I remember right and did nothing with them.Id argue against Wandys TD defense in recent years too.Im struggling to remember a competitive match in the last 4/5 years for him he wasn't taken down in.

Yes Chuck has bad tactics in fights but they say you are as good as your last fight, Chuck wasn't doing too bad against Shogun, the punch from Shogun wasn't something that would usually knock Chuck down in the past. Rich on the other hand usually has good tactics but he tends to brawl a lot with guys and it didnt take much of a connection for Vitor to put him away, plus the Wand fight could have gone either way.

Chuck was being soundly beaten by Shogun.The little movement he does have was destroyed by a leg kick after a minute.His only things in that fight were getting up from a takedown and getting one of his own(then standing straight up again).That punch would have knocked Chuck down in any era.Shogun has heavy hands and moves forward really fast.It was basically a half hook/half hammerfist into the mouth. Then the GnP KO'd him & brought him back around.
With Rich & Vitor it was more where the 1st punch caught him I think(although it was a stupid brawl to get into with Vitors hand speed).It caught him on right on the temple so good luck to anyone whos not screwed over by that one and when he went down the follow up landed in the exact same place.
True about the Wand fight going either way but im never gonna say a bad word about either of them with that fight

fakearms123

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

Chuck was being soundly beaten by Shogun.The little movement he does have was destroyed by a leg kick after a minute.His only things in that fight were getting up from a takedown and getting one of his own(then standing straight up again).That punch would have knocked Chuck down in any era.Shogun has heavy hands and moves forward really fast.It was basically a half hook/half hammerfist into the mouth. Then the GnP KO'd him & brought him back around.
With Rich & Vitor it was more where the 1st punch caught him I think(although it was a stupid brawl to get into with Vitors hand speed).It caught him on right on the temple so good luck to anyone whos not screwed over by that one and when he went down the follow up landed in the exact same place.
True about the Wand fight going either way but im never gonna say a bad word about either of them with that fight

I wont quote back everything you said but I will admit that it is hard to defend Chuck considering his past 5 fights, but compared to Rich Franklins past 5 fights there is no denying that Chuck has fought the top 3 light heavyweights in the world in Rashad, Shogun and Rampage. I know that Shogun beat Chuck in that fight but Shogun also knocked out undefeated Lyoto recently and Rich has had an easier time with Travis Lutter and Matt Hamill which might make Rich look a little better. For instance if Chuck fought those guys and tko'd them we would probably not give Chuck such a hard time but the fact that even after losing he still only wants to fight the best of the best, that tells you something.

Yeah there is a small thing in my head (not referring to my brain here) telling me that this fight will go to Rich by semi boring decision but after watching the ultimate fighter and seeing these pics of his new physique I cant help but get excited, I remember watching the babalu fight and how Chuck put him away, I guess I want to see that same fighter back, thats what made him so popular, he didnt leave it to the judges.

Rich is a very good fighter, but during his career he never reached the level of Chuck, thats why when they were both champions no one wondered who would win if they fought because Chuck defended his belt against Jeremy Horn, Randy, Tito and Babalu while Rich defended his belt against Nate Quarry and David Loiseau. I like Rich don't get me wrong but Chuck is better in every area besides from jiu jitsu, Rich has gotten out of some sticky situations, his escapes and submissions are great from working with Gurgel, but Chuck has only been submitted once in his career, 11 years ago, in the clinch I think they are even.

If I had to make a prediction right now, i am going to go with Chuck TKO first round, i'll say after 3 mins.

SDTimeout

Would anybody be willing to offer better odds on the 4/6 for Franklin ? Boylesports seem to have it priced right imo but i see alot of people in chucks favour so perhaps i could be offered 6/4 or better ?

Savage Tyrant

Chuck is my second favourite fighter of all time behind Randy. I really hope he comes through this with a win. He looks in fantastic shape, but I have to admit, I'm worried for the lond term implications for him with some of the shots he's been taking in his last fights.

rovert

The Mirko-Barry portion of the press conference was meant to be the funniest press conference ever with Dana in tears of laughter.

Anyone have a link of a replay?

Professey Chin

Dont think the replays are up yet.Was funny though.

Barry said at one stage that if he wins saturdays hes gonna go home and stare out the window for the next 2 years in shock.
Cro-Cop said later on then that if he gets lucky and lands a high kick Barry will still spend 2 years looking out a window with a nurse by his side

DufferO8

where can i watch this? will bravo ever show it?

scudzilla

DufferO8 wrote: »

where can i watch this? will bravo ever show it?

Live on ESPN

Or, if you're like me and can't be arsed getting up or staying awake till stupid o clock just download it early Sunday mornin and watch Sunday Afternoon wit a few tubes

DufferO8

thanks but will the highlights be shown anywhere else because i dont have espn?

scudzilla

DufferO8 wrote: »

thanks but will the highlights be shown anywhere else because i dont have espn?

Maybe in a few months

Downloading it on sunday will be your only bet then, and no, i can't give you any sites or help in finding a torrent site sorry

Professey Chin

Press conference up on ufc.com now