Nationalism in Dublin in the 19th century

Blisterman

Whenever I hear about the Irish nationalist movement in the 19th century, after Catholic emancipation, I hear it being motivated by rural poverty and famine. Dublin, although there was poverty, was not badly affected by the famine. Was there as much nationalist feeling at the time in Dublin as there was in other parts of the country?

Rebelheart

There was plenty of British nationalism in Dublin in that century, that´s for certain. The cult of royalism was abundant with innocuous organisations such as the Dublin Society being renamed the "Royal Dublin Society" (same for numerous others), Dun Laoghaire and the streets along Dublin´s southern coast given dreadful royalist names like York road and God knows how many battles from Dalkey to Monkstown replacing ancient Irish placenames. Cultural rape on an enormous scale. The rabble was out and desperately creating a new British nationalist cult in a new Ireland.

Surely you weren´t implying in your title that only the Irish had something as low as "nationalism"?

MarchDub

Blisterman wrote: »

Whenever I hear about the Irish nationalist movement in the 19th century, after Catholic emancipation, I hear it being motivated by rural poverty and famine. Dublin, although there was poverty, was not badly affected by the famine. Was there as much nationalist feeling at the time in Dublin as there was in other parts of the country?

Who or what exactly are you listening to? You provide no information on your sources for this amazing observation. For one, it was Daniel O'Connell's willingness to include the poorer tenants that eventually won him Catholic Emancipation. It was not originally a grass roots effort by any means nor was the motivation behind the later Repeal movement a result of Irish poverty or the Famine. It was ideologically based.

The Young Irelanders - of the 1848 rising - were mostly from privileged backgrounds. Thomas Davis - graduate of Trinity College - founded the Nation newspaper in Dublin in 1842 with the expressed aim of supporting and championing Irish nationalist identity. He had a widespread readership both in Dublin and beyond. Later Pearse would say that it was Davis who really did the most in promoting the notion of Irish identity as a separatist cause.

Likewise other Young Irelanders, William Smith O'Brien came from a highly privileged background, Harrow and Cambridge educated. Thomas Francis Meagher also - educated at Clongowes Wood and Stoneyhurst. They broke away from O'Connell on the issue of how to win a separatist parliament in Dublin. They also wanted to establish a non-sectarian state and declared that the sectarian divisions in Irish society were being propagated by the British presence who saw it as a means of control.

That very Dublin family, the Wildes of Merrion Square, were represented in the Young Irelanders by Oscar's mother, Jane Wilde, who wrote seditious articles for The Nation under the name Speranza. The newspaper was seized and closed down by Dublin Castle authorities on the publication of one of her articles calling for revolt against the British presence in Ireland.

walrusgumble

Dublin has always led from the front (and Belfast too, considering the formation of the United Irishmen movement). It could possibly be said that without Dublin and its people and excluding certain well known people in later years (and I suppose places like Cork and Tipperary in the 1919-1921) the rural side of the country would not really have given a fiddlers as to their nationality (I am referring to the big prosperous farmers) so long as they had the right to own their own land or fair rent etc, I suppose one may not be able to blame them, .

What about the Gaelic Revivial in literature. It might have being a bit wishy washy for the average tenant farmer but Dublin born people like Yeats (O'Casey, if I am correct was into more sureal and hated the mythology lark) did alot to give us some reminder of who the Irish are.

Its not like Dublin was the only city or town that was "west brit".What about the big garrison towns that enjoyed prosperity with the coming and goings of the army, which gave employment to its people. Look at the brief hostility townspeople had in the aftermath of 1916? Why? many towns and villages outside of Dublin had streets and halls named after the British

It far to much generalisatation to say Nationalism was motivated by poverty and land hunger, yes, it was an influence for many a Fenian, but why didn't they rise during the Famine times? More the same to say Dublin was ignorant to what was going on in the big houses during the famine.

(I am not a Dubliner by the way)

donaghs

Nationalism and poverty aren't necessarily connected. Some of the Dublin Catholic business elite like William Martin Murphy were prominant Nationalists in the Home Rule movement. But in 1913, workers rights was a more pressing issue for the Dublin poor - and WM Murphy was an opponent of this.

As stated earlier, many nationalists came from privileged backgrounds. And it could be argued that the devastation caused by the Famine was a hindrance to Irish nationalism. As shown by the failed attempt at a Rising during it.

On the other hand, some people have said that the growing prosperity in Ireland (particularly rural Ireland) from the 1890s to 1916 led to less poltical agitation.

So, in summary, I think the history of Ireland is far too complex to be described in terms of the original question.

T runner

walrusgumble wrote: »

, it was an influence for many a Fenian, but why didn't they rise during the Famine times?

Maybe because they were emigrating, dying or dead?

brianthebard

T runner wrote: »

Maybe because they were emigrating, dying or dead?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Irelander_Rebellion_of_1848

Denerick

Following the Famine most Nationalist movements originated in Dublin. In fact its fair to say that Dublin was the breeding ground for emerging Fenians, and the grass roots elements of Irish nationalism are greatly overstated. The Fenians were largely bourgeouis and urban.

deise go deo

Interesting thread, The first appearance of 'nationalst' volunteers was in the mid lands, around Athlone, They pre-dated the Irish Volunteers by several months.

walrusgumble

deise go deo wrote: »

Interesting thread, The first appearance of 'nationalst' volunteers was in the mid lands, around Athlone, They pre-dated the Irish Volunteers by several months.

aye use to gather at the Fair Green where the old Marist Brothers National School sits, near St Mary's Church. On the 11th of October 1913, a general parade of about a thousand men was held at Fair Green, Athlone, Co. Westmeath under Mr. Paddy Downing. The men were a combination of the Hibernian Rifles, a dissident faction of the Ancient Order of Hibernians and the Midland Volunteer Force.

However, on the 22nd of October 1913, an estimated five thousand men, including many British Army reservists, paraded with a fife and drum band in twenty companies with company commanders and a general officer commanding through Athlone with no weapons. A member of the Midland Volunteer Force organising committee named M. D. Hayes opened the meeting with the words: ‘As Loyal Irishmen to our King and Country, the objects of the Midland Volunteer Force must enlist your sympathy and approval.’ Athlone was a staunchly Irish Parlimentary Party town prior to 1916 and home of TP O'Connor

Michael O’Rahilly (The O’Rahilly) as we know who died during the Rising produced a Gaelic League magazine titled, An Claideamh Soluis (The Sword of Light). He and Eoin Mac Neill, to wrote an editorial for a new issue of the magazine. Mac Neill compiled an article entitled, ‘The North Began,’ published circa the 1st of November 1913 in which he advocated that Home Rulers should imitate the example which Carson’s Volunteers were setting them from a number of the northern countries. "He stated in the article that, ‘All Irish people, Unionist as well as Nationalist, are determined to have their own way in Ireland … There is nothing to prevent the other twenty eight counties from calling into existence citizen forces to hold Ireland for the Empire …’ (So at least you can understand Michael McDowell's attitude towards Republicanism and the North, - also consider McNeill's son was to die in Sligo at the hands of the Free State during the Civil War)

As we know the volunteers came into existence at the Rotunda In the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin on the 25th of November 1913, where a group of parties interested in the implementation and defending of Home Rule was set up and were known as The Irish National Volunteers. It was a gathering of extreme and moderate Nationalist opinions. The new movement comprised of men and women from The Gaelic League, The Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB), Sinn Fein and some party supporters of the Irish Parliamentary Party. A Provisional Committee of thirty men was set up and elected as their first president Professor Eoin Mac Neill, Unknown to Mac Neill, twelve members of the Provisional Committee belonged to the Irish Republican Brotherhood, the I.R.B. Thus from the start, the Committee of the Irish National Volunteers was influenced by men of extreme Nationalist views. Membership was open ‘to all able-bodied Irishmen without distinction of creed, politics or social grade.

In December 1913, the committee of the Irish National Volunteers issued a written appeal to the public which ended, ‘To every Irishman who believes in a self-respecting, self-reliant Ireland to do his part in equipping the First National Army of Defence established in Ireland since the Great Days of Grattan.’ (What was so great about the days of Grattan one wonders if you are poor, landless and discriminated on the basis of one's religion, funny now mention of Wolfe Tone)

http://darkcloudsshining.com/?page_id=10
http://darkcloudsshining.com/
http://darkcloudsshining.com/?page_id=12
http://irishmedals.org/gpage5.html
http://books.google.ie/books?id=_xeSuTqlkhQC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=midland+volunteers+%2B+athlone+%2B+1914&source=bl&ots=4ZSd7gynFQ&sig=FRl-MszH6jokJ_hGPh9038xq_O0&hl=en&ei=dRNPTLG5D4K80gSVhamaBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=midland%20volunteers%20%2B%20athlone%20%2B%201914&f=false

http://books.google.ie/books?id=_xeSuTqlkhQC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=midland+volunteers+%2B+athlone+%2B+1914&source=bl&ots=4ZSd7gynFQ&sig=FRl-MszH6jokJ_hGPh9038xq_O0&hl=en&ei=dRNPTLG5D4K80gSVhamaBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=midland%20volunteers%20%2B%20athlone%20%2B%201914&f=false

http://www.athlonelive.com/forum/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=383


Most of them went off to fight in World War 1.


on a separate note, we al have heard the story of many a grand father and great grand father who fought in the GPO on 1916;)
http://irishmedals.org/gpage.html
http://irishmedals.org/gpage1.html