Babies hurt in fox attack?

homerhop

Thats so nice, its so heart warming to see you understand the concept of an animal being wild.

morganafay

But don't urban foxes get their food from bins and stuff anyway? So if you fed them but from a distance, and didn't let them know the food came from you, then would that be ok, or still not advised?

homerhop

Here you go Morganafay, a report on urban foxes by David Wall.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/mooneygoeswild/factsheets/fox/index.html

morganafay

Ok so feeding them far enough away from the house is ok according to that . . . not that I'm planning to feed foxes, I have bunnies

Also, while we're on the subject, I heard somewhere that foxes are instinctively scared of dogs and won't go into a garden where they can smell dogs, or if you tie bits of dog hair around your fence they'll stay away. Does anyone know if that's true or a myth? Or any other way of keeping foxes away? We've never had any foxes around here luckily.

homerhop

Minimum contact I would advise, and he also advises not to hand feed. Foxes are not stupid animals and unlike reared pets they will manage to survive if we as humans do not feed them. Have to say morganafay its is nice to see that you are interested enough to see other views and willing to ask questions and read posts and links with an open mind.

Foxes will get used to dogs and have no problem going into a farm yard where there are dogs, never heard the hair thing before. But i have heard that the smell of human urine does deter them. You may not have seen them but you can be sure there are some in your area.

ISDW

morganafay wrote: »

Ok so feeding them far enough away from the house is ok according to that . . . not that I'm planning to feed foxes, I have bunnies

Also, while we're on the subject, I heard somewhere that foxes are instinctively scared of dogs and won't go into a garden where they can smell dogs, or if you tie bits of dog hair around your fence they'll stay away. Does anyone know if that's true or a myth? Or any other way of keeping foxes away? We've never had any foxes around here luckily.

Rural foxes may be scared of dogs, but the urban ones certainly aren't. I lived in London and had big patio windows, foxes would regularly come up to the window and just stand there looking in at us for ages, with the dogs going mad on the other side of the glass trying to get to them:rolleyes:

iguana

The foxes in London are mostly utterly unafraid of humans. I remember one night hearing a ruckus outside and I shined my torch out on the road to see what it was and it was 3 foxes fighting. They stopped when the light shone on them and looked up at me. I thought they would scarper once they saw me but the gave the fox equivalent of a shrug and went back to their fight. Running in and out of the gardens as they went. I've also had them walk along the footpath in front of me see me and just not care and keep sauntering along as I walk right past them.

They never cared much about my dogs either and were often up on our shed looking down at them as my dogs barked at them below. This was really not safe for them as Dougal could get on the shed and I would have to bring my dogs inside lest the fox end up dead. There were often lots of dead foxes in our local park too, as they were too cocky to be frightened of dogs and wouldn't run off until it was too late. I often had to grab a hold of my dogs when a stupid fox would walk right past us at stroll pace.

I really like foxes (I read many Tom McCoughran's as a kid) but I did start to find them quite infuriating in London. That said this case does strike me as strange. While foxes are cheeky I can't see them walking in through the kitchen and ignoring the smells of food that a fox would smell there and going up two flights of stairs to attack a pair of babies.

morganafay

homerhop wrote: »

Minimum contact I would advise, and he also advises not to hand feed. Foxes are not stupid animals and unlike reared pets they will manage to survive if we as humans do not feed them. Have to say morganafay its is nice to see that you are interested enough to see other views and willing to ask questions and read posts and links with an open mind.

Foxes will get used to dogs and have no problem going into a farm yard where there are dogs, never heard the hair thing before. But i have heard that the smell of human urine does deter them. You may not have seen them but you can be sure there are some in your area.

I'd say there are some around (I love in the countryside), I've seen them around at night when driving, but never in my garden. I used to keep my guinea pigs in a run even at night, and it wasn't exactly fox proof. Now I have my bunnies in a shed at night and the guinea pigs in strong hutches and runs so hopefully they are fox proof.

My dogs are small so not much of a threat to foxes anyway

I'd love to see foxes around if I didn't have rabbits/guinea pigs. It'd be really interesting to watch them. My dad said that in my grandmother's garden he saw foxes and a dear, so I'm very jealous of people with wildlife around.

Graces7

This reminds me of the "dingo baby" killing in Australia..

And I believe it can and does happen.

People seem to find it hard to respect the wildness of animals. Years ago, we moved into an old remote cottage where a pine marten had her patch

Everyone said, ah you will soon have her eating out of your hand, and what are you going to call her?

We told them, why would we want to do that? she is a wild creature, raising her young well.. sometimes she needs help with food, but we put that down a way away from the house so as not to force her to come near us. Unconditional support. Not to change her or offend her dignity as a wild creature.

She would come out in daylight when she was stuck for food, and I would put it out for her. But never try more than that.

Her young one year used to run in and out of the house, but we never tried to tame them.

Always a joy to catch a glimpse of them

peasant

morganafay wrote: »

Also, while we're on the subject, I heard somewhere that foxes are instinctively scared of dogs and won't go into a garden where they can smell dogs

Yeah ...they are so scared of dogs that they have a layer in thick hedge right on the other side of the chain link fence where our three dogs stand foaming at the mouth, not two meters away from them.

Scared? Giving them the finger more like

snaps

lol, todays uk mirror the uncle of the babies are now saying they chased the fox out with cusions, yesterday it was a piece of wood!

fits

snaps wrote: »

Parents were watching "Britains got talent" when the attack happened, so this would have been between 8-9.30pm?? Its very rare to see a fox at this time of the evening in what was a very bright hot summers evening in London (Ive never seen a fox in the evening, early light morning yes, but never in the evening)

Its not rare at all! You can see foxes at any time of day but very commonly around dusk which is when this happened.

Fox came in from the back garden doors, through the living room parents were watching tv in, up 2 storys of stairs into childrens bedroom.
1st of all father said cot sides were not fully up.
Then they said cot sides were fully up.
Both parents said in 1st statement that they didnt know what happened.
Then 2 days later they said they caught the fox in one of the cots, trying to grab one of the babies, then they chased it out of the house with a piece of wood????
They have said it was possibly a cub, not fully grown? Surely cubs this time of year would still be very young and still hanging around with the parents??

Might be the fault of media reporting as much as anything else. Both parents may have slightly different stories anyway. If you've ever been through a trauma you will understand that its very difficult to remember the details accurately and other peoples' stories will differ from your own.

It all doesnt seem right to me,

It certainly is very strange indeed, but not beyond the realms of possibility at all.

EGAR

Rural foxes have no problem with dogs either, especially after they figured out that they are locked up. My dogs are so used to foxes going past the kennels at night that they have given up barking at them.

iguana

fits wrote: »

Its not rare at all! You can see foxes at any time of day but very commonly around dusk which is when this happened.

That's true. I forgot to address that earlier. While I always saw more at night there were plenty about in the day time too.

Kess73

snaps wrote: »

eeemmmm, im not to sure about this whole thing. im currently in uk, when this news 1st broke, it wasn't confirmed that it was a fox attack. also the parents said they didn't witness the attack. now all of a sudden since the press are dishing out story money, their (the parents) are coming out with conflicting stories. today the uk mirror ran a 3 page story, with the parents saying they chased the fox out of the bedroom with a piece of wood! im actually wondering if this fox attack actually happened? call me old fashioned, but something to me is just not right here.

Yeah. No fox was seen. Nothing was found to indicate that what attacked the children was a fox.

I must admit the first thing that came into my mind when I first heard the story was something like a terrier attacked the kids and the story of a fox was made up to cover up something like the parents leaving a dog in the room with the kids.

The parents have since changed their story from one that said they came into the room and found the kids in that state to one where they went into the room, saw the fox, and then chased it with a piece of wood that just happened to be in the bedroom. That change in the story just casts more doubt on the story that it was a fox in my mind.

morganafay

Would the parents not have heard the kids crying while they were being bitten at some point, especially since both of them were bitten. And how did the fox sneak out during this time, if they didn't see it?

Discodog

Now a pile of people are appearing who all claim to have been "attacked" by urban foxes. One woman said that a fox had crept into her house & bitten her foot !. The "outcry" may even influence the Tories into trying to repeal the hunting ban even though the Liberals oppose hunting.

I think that it could of been a fox, unlikely but possible. If a fox discovered a baby, maybe attracted by smell or curious of sound, it may of bitten especially if the baby moved suddenly. Having said that the recent cases of dog owners being prosecuted as a result of their dogs attacking children would be a good reason to lie.

We have always fed wildlife, after all that is how the wolf/dog became domesticated. I have told many people to avoid feeding or to feed at a distance but there is a basic human instinct in some of us that loves being close to a wild animal. As a child I was able to hand feed Badgers, Foxes & even Otters. It left an indelible mark.

fits

Discodog wrote: »

As a child I was able to hand feed Badgers, Foxes & even Otters. It left an indelible mark.

So irresponsible. Especially the otters Do you know how vulnerable that makes an animal if they lose their natural fear of humans?

Anyway I just saw a fox this evening at 6 pm. They are out at any time of day.

I doubt this has anything to do with the hunting ban. It has nothing to do with it. Perhaps it will educate people to leave wild animals be wild but no more.

Discodog

fits wrote: »

So irresponsible. Especially the otters Do you know how vulnerable that makes an animal if they lose their natural fear of humans?

Anyway I just saw a fox this evening at 6 pm. They are out at any time of day.

I doubt this has anything to do with the hunting ban. It has nothing to do with it. Perhaps it will educate people to leave wild animals be wild but no more.

You have obviously never been to Shetland where the Otters were & probably are still often hand fed by fisherman. The Otters literally line up on the harbour wall as a boat comes in. I know a lock keeper who has a female Otter that comes to be fed every night & brings her pups too.

Leaving wild animals to be wild sounds such a sanctimonious idea but in reality we all react with wildlife. So should we not feed birds or care for a wild animal that is injured ?. I would rather have a population that errs on the side of being too kind to wildlife.

Urban foxes have little natural fear of humans & I very much doubt if feeding them makes a lot of difference. We have taken over their domain not the other way round.

The then family friends that took me out as a child to feed wildlife devoted their lives to conservation & study. They were anything but irresponsible.

fits

Discodog wrote: »

You have obviously never been to Shetland where the Otters were & probably are still often hand fed by fisherman. The Otters literally line up on the harbour wall as a boat comes in. I know a lock keeper who has a female Otter that comes to be fed every night & brings her pups too.

Leaving wild animals to be wild sounds such a sanctimonious idea but in reality we all react with wildlife. So should we not feed birds or care for a wild animal that is injured ?. I would rather have a population that errs on the side of being too kind to wildlife.

Urban foxes have little natural fear of humans & I very much doubt if feeding them makes a lot of difference. We have taken over their domain not the other way round.

The then family friends that took me out as a child to feed wildlife devoted their lives to conservation & study. They were anything but irresponsible.

Did this happen in Shetland? It sounds anything but 'kind' to me.

snaps

Todays Uk mirror now apparently have photos taken of the fox! Every day now something different, 4th day each day at least 2 page spreads. I feel sorry for the babies that were hurt, but all these conflicting stories and persicusion of urban foxes all of a sudden is like a rollar coaster ride.

More seriously yesterday in Essex (Where im on my hols at moment), 2 people were bitten by Adders (Which are quite poisionous), and that made a little corner paragraph!!

fits

Discodog wrote: »

You have obviously never been to Shetland where the Otters were & probably are still often hand fed by fisherman. The Otters literally line up on the harbour wall as a boat comes in. I know a lock keeper who has a female Otter that comes to be fed every night & brings her pups too.

No I have never been to Shetland, but I have been to the Galapagos where the animals have no fear of humans at all Fortunately there are controls in place to protect them but humans did take advantage of this in the past and nearly wiped out the Giant tortoise population there.

Leaving wild animals to be wild sounds such a sanctimonious idea but in reality we all react with wildlife. So should we not feed birds or care for a wild animal that is injured ?. I would rather have a population that errs on the side of being too kind to wildlife.

Your definition of 'kind' is different to mine I fear. In this case, if people continue to feed animals such as foxes leading to them losing their natural fear and events such as last weekends' in london become more commonplace (which I doubt), the only option will be a cull. Is that 'kind'?

We have taken over their domain not the other way round.

What a strange notion. We are a species of the world just as the fox is. London has been in existence for a long time now. I dont think either species has taken over anyone's domain to be quite honest. We have as much claim to it as the fox does.

The then family friends that took me out as a child to feed wildlife devoted their lives to conservation & study. They were anything but irresponsible.

I beg to disagree. See article below. Is this kindness?

A visitor to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park was bitten by a black bear on Wednesday, May 12, 2010, while hiking on the Laurel Falls trail.

Initial reports stated the man allowed the bear to get within inches of him so he could take a picture of it. The bear bit the man's foot, leaving a "small" puncture wound that did not require medical attention.

On Thursday, wildlife biologists tracked and captured a small, 60 pound female bear. They were also monitoring the trail to see if other bears frequent the area.

We have named the bear, LAUREL.

At first, we thought the incident was just between this man and Laurel. Now, it may be he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the main culprits were other visitors feeding the bear up to two weeks earlier. Officials believe this bear had become food conditioned from visitors leaving food remains along the trail or even feeding it. Food conditioned bears may be bold in their attempts to get food.

According to a press release, park policy requires that a bear that contacts and/or injures a person must be euthanized.

NPS officials also stated the visitor bitten in the incident will not be cited or arrested for his actions, adding that the he had been through enough already.

We have four goals:

1) We wanted to Save Laurel from being put down;

2) WE want to increase awareness of the dangers of approaching, feeding, and harassing bears; *EDUCATE*

3) WE want the enforcement of federal laws designed to protect GSMNP wildlife, by addressing the willful encroachment on, feeding, and/or harassment of wildlife within the park;

4) WE want to help in Reducing the likelihood of future human/bear incidents in the GSMNP by "positively" changing visitors' attitudes and behaviors.

This cause was to SAVE Laurel and now other bears, we do NOT support any rally's , we are a positive group of people that are simply asking that you all options available are always checked out, help Laurels Legacy to live on, please.

"This cause does not advocate any retaliatory or violent action against any tourist. Please, do not include language of this type in Comments or Wall Posts. It will be deleted."

Please, help us attain our goals: Send e-mails to legislators, media and NPS; let them know you want Laurel spared and want better enforcement of laws designed to protect wildlife.
We do NOT claim ownership of all photos , so please ask before using. TY

Web site is http://home.nps.gov
other information is under discussions.

Graces7

Discodog wrote: »

You have obviously never been to Shetland where the Otters were & probably are still often hand fed by fisherman. The Otters literally line up on the harbour wall as a boat comes in. I know a lock keeper who has a female Otter that comes to be fed every night & brings her pups too.

Leaving wild animals to be wild sounds such a sanctimonious idea but in reality we all react with wildlife. So should we not feed birds or care for a wild animal that is injured ?. I would rather have a population that errs on the side of being too kind to wildlife.

Urban foxes have little natural fear of humans & I very much doubt if feeding them makes a lot of difference. We have taken over their domain not the other way round.

The then family friends that took me out as a child to feed wildlife devoted their lives to conservation & study. They were anything but irresponsible.

Shetland is very different from an urban situation is it not?

I agree with fits here that getting foxes too used to people is a bad things; see what I wrote also re my own experiences with a pine marten; I would not have dreamt of hand feeding her and it would have been easy to do so.

Simply; it would have changed her nature and why should i do that?

Also think re the dingo baby episode; there are many attacks by wild animals that are fed too much too near.

Graces7

Kess73 wrote: »

Yeah. No fox was seen. Nothing was found to indicate that what attacked the children was a fox.

I must admit the first thing that came into my mind when I first heard the story was something like a terrier attacked the kids and the story of a fox was made up to cover up something like the parents leaving a dog in the room with the kids.

The parents have since changed their story from one that said they came into the room and found the kids in that state to one where they went into the room, saw the fox, and then chased it with a piece of wood that just happened to be in the bedroom. That change in the story just casts more doubt on the story that it was a fox in my mind.

That was my thinking also..

Discodog

The point is that people do feed wild foxes & I doubt if any will stop as a result of this story. The experts that I know & would trust, in the UK simply do not believe the story as it has been told or retold.

I will stick to my view that it is preferable to have people that are compassionate enough to feed wildlife than not. A friend of mine on Dartmoor went to a lot of trouble to feed the deer this winter as food was so scarce & the animals were desperate. I would consider that to be an act of kindness. The fishermen on Mull love feeding the Sea Eagles. Are they being unkind by throwing unwanted fish to birds ?.

There is another thread here about someone wanting to help a wild Fox with Mange. We all know that some would say to leave it & let nature take it's painful course. Comparing urban Foxes to the Galapagos & wild Bears is somewhat extreme.

There is a strong link with hunting in that it is easier to justify hunting if you portray the fox as unwanted vermin. I guarantee that this story will be mentioned if the Tories seek to repeal the hunting ban.

Frances144

Discodog wrote: »

You have obviously never been to Shetland where the Otters were & probably are still often hand fed by fisherman. The Otters literally line up on the harbour wall as a boat comes in. I know a lock keeper who has a female Otter that comes to be fed every night & brings her pups too.

How absolutely fascinating.

Please could you tell me whereabouts in Shetland this takes place or took place? If you have any names of folk hand-feeding otters, I would be most interested.

fits

Discodog wrote: »

The experts that I know & would trust, in the UK simply do not believe the story as it has been told or retold.

I agree that it is very strange and unusual behaviour. Foxes just dont regard humans as food. There can often be exceptions and 'freaks' for want of a better word in any species. Being over brave with humans would have contributed. I'm not sure I believe the story either though.

I will stick to my view that it is preferable to have people that are compassionate enough to feed wildlife than not. A friend of mine on Dartmoor went to a lot of trouble to feed the deer this winter as food was so scarce & the animals were desperate. I would consider that to be an act of kindness. The fishermen on Mull love feeding the Sea Eagles. Are they being unkind by throwing unwanted fish to birds ?.

Compassion comes in different guises. I wouldnt disagree with feeding wild animals in conditions such as occurred this winter. Fed the birds myself.

There is another thread here about someone wanting to help a wild Fox with Mange. We all know that some would say to leave it & let nature take it's painful course. Comparing urban Foxes to the Galapagos & wild Bears is somewhat extreme.

Is it really? They're both wild animals. Better left alone imo. Treat if you have to, but I still wouldnt feed urban foxes who have ample supply of food. It just doesnt achieve anything good in my opinion.

There is a strong link with hunting in that it is easier to justify hunting if you portray the fox as unwanted vermin. I guarantee that this story will be mentioned if the Tories seek to repeal the hunting ban.

Perhaps it will. I dont know. Repealing the foxhunting ban will do little to affect urban fox populations and behaviour.

Graces7

Discodog wrote: »

The point is that people do feed wild foxes & I doubt if any will stop as a result of this story. The experts that I know & would trust, in the UK simply do not believe the story as it has been told or retold.

I will stick to my view that it is preferable to have people that are compassionate enough to feed wildlife than not. A friend of mine on Dartmoor went to a lot of trouble to feed the deer this winter as food was so scarce & the animals were desperate. I would consider that to be an act of kindness. The fishermen on Mull love feeding the Sea Eagles. Are they being unkind by throwing unwanted fish to birds ?.

There is another thread here about someone wanting to help a wild Fox with Mange. We all know that some would say to leave it & let nature take it's painful course. Comparing urban Foxes to the Galapagos & wild Bears is somewhat extreme.

There is a strong link with hunting in that it is easier to justify hunting if you portray the fox as unwanted vermin. I guarantee that this story will be mentioned if the Tories seek to repeal the hunting ban.

Again, Shetland is very , very different from a large town.

Comparing the two is akin to the comparison you refuse to accept.

And emergency is different from routine. We always fed the pine marten when she was in need, but never hand feeding. And never when she could find food in her true habitat.

Huge difference is there not?

Between truly helping and building a dependency that robs the critters of their true nature and way of life.

goat2

morganafay wrote: »

That is really weird. I don't want to be accusing the parents of stuff, but it is weird how they changed the story.

do people still leave doors open, i have never heard of that, especially in a built up area, and leaving babies in a different room with the house open to all, those babies could have been snatched very easily,

Frances144

London in a heatwave has to be, perhaps, the most horrible place to live. I did it for many years, even pregnant. There is no air, nothing moves, just impenetrable exhausting heat that smells of dog **** and car exhausts (why do you think I live in Shetland now?).

Anyway, I had my 2 babies in London. Ok it was 16 years ago but I don't think things have changed that much. Would I've left the back door open - yes but I would've been in the same room watching telly so nothing would've got passed me. Would I have left internal doors open and windows - yes, but they would not be ground level ones. Would I have left our other back door, which had garden access but not road, open - no way, you don't know who could've slipped in and out without knowing.

Some folk who do not work or live with animals have absolutely no clue how they think or operate or live. They honestly don't. Kids these days don't know where milk actually comes from. There are endless surveys to support this.

I think the story is only changing due to the newspapers' expert ability to make a different story out of one single fact, tbh. They are experts at that.

Out of interest, I have asked on a different forum about the hand-feeding otters and have received a few replies and of the answers I got were - not otters, but seals.......sometimes fish chucked from the salmon cages.....fish was thrown from the fish factory. So, obviously they are fed but not hand-fed, and it is rare and not a national sport!