Ireland vs. New Zealand June 12. **Mod Warning, Read OP**

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

Whereas ROG's for the most part has just been down. I think, and hope, the decision was based upon fitness concerns as Sexton is clearly the better player at this point.

Did you miss the 6Ns? Sexton has been out of form since he got injured against the Boks. He had a poor enough game against the Ospreys, missing a sitter that could have won the game. He has lost a lot of weight and his confidence seems shot. Starting him against the ABs was not going to do anything to help with his development.

As for O'Gara - he pulled the game out of the fire against England. He came on too late against Scotland to put a bit of structure on the game. England and Scotland are not anyway close to the standard of the ABs.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Starting him against the ABs was not going to do anything to help with his development.

I think it stopped being an issue of development a long time ago, I just think he's the better player. His kicking has been excellent since he came back after the 6N. Starting him if he's half-fit or having trouble in his jaw clearly isn't going to help him, or the team, though. I think that's what the decision was based upon and I'm not gonna complain about it. The Hayes one is what I'm more annoyed at.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think it stopped being an issue of development a long time ago, I just think he's the better player. His kicking has been excellent since he came back after the 6N. Starting him if he's half-fit or having trouble in his jaw clearly isn't going to help him, or the team, though. I think that's what the decision was based upon and I'm not gonna complain about it. The Hayes one is what I'm more annoyed at.

His kicking has been mainly in grounds he is very familiar with in the Magners or at home in the Heineken Cup. NZ is a different kettle of fish.

There was also a bit of poor decision making at the end when Leinster went for a penalty (which he missed) when they should have gone for a lineout to try and win it. I'm sure ROG would have had the experience to have pointed that out if he was the outhalf.

[Jackass]

All Leinster / Munster BS aside and everything, I just can not see the point of this selection. I think he finally gave one or two players a chance, but the wrong players imo.

I think we need a 7 badly. Wallace isn't half the player he used to be and Jennings should have been given a shot imo.

I was a big supporter of O'Leary for a while, but over the last season I've really gone off him. I think he makes poor decisions and execution is poor. Defence is a major plus though, he's very strong in that department, but Reddan hasn't done anything to displace him, but maybe Boss deserved a shot? He was certainly the best Irish scrum half all season.

Mick O'Driscoll? Absolute joke. As is John Hayes selection.

I think RO'G deserves another shot. Sexton wasn't the best in the green and I think mixing it up is crucial. This selection is more about Sexton being dropped than O'Gara being picked imo, and I think Kidney will be more interested in Sextons response and desire to win back the jersey than O'Garas performance.

Trimble is good but will never be top class. Another missed oppertunity for Carr.

Great to see Cronin selected, but other than that it's a very poor job by Kidney imo.

pappyodaniel

Personally, I'd have started with Sexton and brought on O'Gara to close out the game if things were going well, defence is going to be such a huge issue in this game and that's where RO'G lets us down. His bravery isn't in question, it's his technique of trying to meet a guy physically when the dogs on the street know he has to go low.

The other contentious issue (as usual:rolleyes:) is the inclusion of Hayes. I think it's the right choice and a good kick up the hole for Buckley after his mixed bag of a game last wknd. He should get 30 mins of game time but if things are going badly for Hayes, I fully expect to see Buckley on earlier. On a side-note, I hope Healy regains his confidence after his recent dismantlement in the HEC semi.

Other than that, it's the strongest team available to Kidney. O'Connell, Cullen and Ferris are big losses in the pack while Trimble is a more than capable replacement for Fitz/Earls.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

His kicking has been mainly in grounds he is very familiar with in the Magners or at home in the Heineken Cup. NZ is a different kettle of fish.

There was also a bit of poor decision making at the end when Leinster went for a penalty (which he missed) when they should have gone for a lineout to try and win it. I'm sure ROG would have had the experience to have pointed that out if he was the outhalf.

I didn't see the second half so can't comment on it (though I presume that was Jennings' call). Wasn't that penalty to bring them within 2 or something though rather then for the win? Anyway, I have no real interest in rehashing this.

Podge_irl

pappyodaniel wrote: »

The other contentious issue (as usual:rolleyes:) is the inclusion of Hayes. I think it's the right choice and a good kick up the hole for Buckley after his mixed bag of a game last wknd. He should get 30 mins of game time but if things are going badly for Hayes, I fully expect to see Buckley on earlier. On a side-note, I hope Healy regains his confidence after his recent dismantlement in the HEC semi.

I don't. Buckley got naff all game time in the 6N even when Hayes was being reamed in the scrums. Buckley seemed to be improving the scrum to me when he came on in the 6N. Court definitely was. Starting Hayes is nonsense.

Buckley has had so many "kicks up the hole" that he'll never be able to sit down again. The management either need to stick him or Court (or Ross) in and stick with them cause I genuinely despair if they think Hayes will go on to the RWC.

dromdrom

Arrogance wrote: »

Just on last years GS win. I was happy but at the same time I was aware that (1) It was the weakest 6N in years (2) We were EXTREMELY fortunate to win it and (3) the rugby we played was dire and would of had us destroyed by any SH team in good form.

We beat a very good French team by playing outstanding rugby and also beat a full strength Springboks and drew with one of the most serious contenders for the WC in the space of a couple of months not a a bad performance by Kidney in my opinion. On top of that the core of an excellent Lions team was drawn from the Irish Grand Slam Team, lets leave the hysterics to the British Tabloids following the English Soccer team.

Arrogance

thehighground wrote: »

Did you miss the 6Ns? Sexton has been out of form since he got injured against the Boks. He had a poor enough game against the Ospreys, missing a sitter that could have won the game. He has lost a lot of weight and his confidence seems shot. Starting him against the ABs was not going to do anything to help with his development.

Sextons form was excellent in the 6N. The only thing off was his kicking but as we later learned that was because he was still carrying an injury that affected his kicking throught the tournament. Sexton missed one kick against the Ospreys but since hes fully recovered from his injury has been kicking 90-100% in games.

O'Gara is going to lose us the game against NZ again. Hes going to cower away from tackles and bottle it like he always seems to do against NZ. I honestly dont know what NZ do to him but every year they specifically target O'Gara and every year O'Gara crumbles. We need a strong physical outhalf against NZ the type of outhalf that plays on with broken fingers and broken jaws, the type that isnt afraid to make tackles and doesnt just go high in order to to soften the blow. We need an outhalf who can actually run at the opposition rather than doing simple orchastrated passes and kick away possession like O'Gara does.

Arrogance

dromdrom wrote: »

We beat a very good French team by playing outstanding rugby and also beat a full strength Springboks and drew with one of the most serious contenders for the WC in the space of a couple of months not a a bad performance by Kidney in my opinion. On top of that the core of an excellent Lions team was drawn from the Irish Grand Slam Team, lets leave the hysterics to the British Tabloids following the English Soccer team.

That french team was not interested at all.

As for that Springbok team you cant be serious? They lost ALL their touring games including games against clubs who were missing their international players. They weren't the same team.

You're right though we did make up the majority of the Lions and yet still scrapped past an atrocious English team, should of lost to an average Welsh team and this year were demolished by France and beaten by Scotland.

Podge_irl

Arrogance wrote: »

O'Gara is going to lose us the game against NZ again.

Considering the pack Ireland are putting out I doubt O'Gara will have the opportunity to lose us the game. I would have liked to see Sexton there, but I don't think it would have made a massive difference in the circumstances. Ireland are going to get destroyed up front. The backline is actually tasty enough looking.

That french team was not interested at all.

Based on? It was a good performances, and easily the best of Kidney's reign imo. It's just a shame Ireland's play seems to have regressed somewhat since then.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

I didn't see the second half so can't comment on it (though I presume that was Jennings' call). Wasn't that penalty to bring them within 2 or something though rather then for the win? Anyway, I have no real interest in rehashing this.

Jennings was gone off injured. It was in the last minute or two. Leinster could not have won the game even if he got the penalty. A very bad decision (BOD / Heaslip must have been asleep).

btw, The fact that you didn't see that missed penalty explains why you think he has got his kicking form back as it wasn't a difficult kick.

dromdrom

Arrogance wrote: »

That french team was not interested at all.

As for that Springbok team you cant be serious? They lost ALL their touring games including games against clubs who were missing their international players. They weren't the same team.

You're right though we did make up the majority of the Lions and yet still scrapped past an atrocious English team, should of lost to an average Welsh team and this year were demolished by France and beaten by Scotland.

A truly shocking period for Irish Rugby

Foxtrol

dromdrom wrote: »

Gas really, guy wins two H Cups and he gets slammed as conservative (anyone remember introducing Hurley for the Gloucester Game?) , just happens to be the first coach in Irish history to win a major trophy (he has won 3 now 2 H Cups and a Grand Slam) various calls may be questioned (i.e I think player x should start instead of player y) but to come out and vilify him as some posters on this forum have is ridiculous, I would love to dig up some of the old threads after we won the Grand Slam to pull out some of the quotes that were made then, I can well imagine that some of the people who are having a go now were declaring his genius back then, as Babs Keating says there's only a week between Palm Sunday and Easter Sunday

Winning trophies has nothing to do with his conservatism in selections. There's absolutely no link. Sure he made the odd "big call" but you cant honestly say one of his major skills is blooding youth. Look at the age profile of Munster that he left hanging round McGahans neck. I'm sure its the same people now who were also defending his conservative selections during the Autumn Internationals, saying that the summer tour was the time to blood youngsters. Barring injury when are the likes of Mushy, Court or Jennings going to get a chance and thats not even including any of the younger prospects when we have a fully fit squad.

thehighground

dromdrom wrote: »

A truly shocking period for Irish Rugby

Sure was. And we only managed a draw against Australia to boot. Shocking!

thehighground

Foxtrol wrote: »

Winning trophies has nothing to do with his conservatism in selections. There's absolutely no link. Sure he made the odd "big call" but you cant honestly say one of his major skills is blooding youth. Look at the age profile of Munster that he left hanging round McGahans neck. I'm sure its the same people now who were also defending his conservative selections during the Autumn Internationals, saying that the summer tour was the time to blood youngsters. Barring injury when are the likes of Mushy, Court or Jennings going to get a chance and thats not even including any of the younger prospects when we have a fully fit squad.

Give us a break will you! Kidney had O'Gara & Stringer starting Heineken Cup Finals as 21 year olds.

Mushy, Court & Jennings are hardly youngsters. Healy was capped by Kidney, as was Sean O'Brien & McLaughlin (though McLaughlin is no spring chicken).

pappyodaniel

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't. Buckley got naff all game time in the 6N even when Hayes was being reamed in the scrums. Buckley seemed to be improving the scrum to me when he came on in the 6N. Court definitely was. Starting Hayes is nonsense.

As you know, the replacement prop will be coming onto the pitch fresh and up against a tiring prop so he should be an improvement, anyway, that's what I expect to see this time round, Buckley getting game time.

dromdrom

thehighground wrote: »

Give us a break will you! Kidney had O'Gara & Stringer starting Heineken Cup Finals as 21 year olds.

Mushy, Court & Jennings are hardly youngsters. Healy was capped by Kidney, as was Sean O'Brien & McLaughlin (though McLaughlin is no spring chicken).

Never let facts get in the way of sweeping generalisations.

Foxtrol

thehighground wrote: »

Give us a break will you! Kidney had O'Gara & Stringer starting Heineken Cup Finals as 21 year olds.

So you stand by the age profile and depth he left Munster with after his second reign (the one were he won the silverware you were going on about)?

Mushy, Court & Jennings are hardly youngsters.

True. My post asked when are these guys going to get some international experience against the top sides. I obviously wasnt clear enough trying to point out that if he wont give these guys experience there's not much chance of giving youngsters a go against decent opposition unless his hand is forced.

Healy was capped by Kidney, as was Sean O'Brien & McLaughlin (though McLaughlin is no spring chicken).

Pretty sure everyone of them was down to an injury and not an experimental call.

I probably doesn't sound like it but I do rate Kidney as a coach. I just feel his conservative selections are going to cost us down the line either when we have an injury crisis during the 6 nations or World Cup or when we have a vast wave of retirements post world cup. I dont think that even the staunchest Kidney supporter can disagree with that (though they probably will)

subfreq

I do think that if both fly halves are fully fit then it's a strange decision. The only way to develop a player is to give him opportunities and Sexton wont get that from the bench.

Look at how the Aussies manage guys through difficult patches or introduce them early on. They stick with a fella and I think once Sexton was chosen he should have been given a season of starts. At the very least to really give the guy a chance to breed some confidence.

I chose Bull as well in a thread yesterday and although it's conservative and against logic I felt experience was needed as Cronin gets his first starting cap and Healy only has a handful. Bull is spent but Buckley hasn't shown to be any better. Certainly not shown enough to gamble no experience in a front row against the AB's.

I am surprised that G Murphy didn't get a start on the wing. It's one position where I actually think Kidney should have played safe. Maybe it's just because I don't rate Trimble. Carr's not there so it's pointless starting Johne.

Jennings for 7 is a really good shout by people as well.

All in all it's hard to see how Kidney is developing the team towards the WC taking all this years selections into account. I know there are injuries this time but even so there are still a lot of contentious decisions.

dromdrom

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you stand by the age profile and depth he left Munster with after his second reign (the one were he won the silverware you were going on about)?



True. My post asked when are these guys going to get some international experience against the top sides. I obviously wasnt clear enough trying to point out that if he wont give these guys experience there's not much chance of giving youngsters a go against decent opposition unless his hand is forced.



Pretty sure everyone of them was down to an injury and not an experimental call.

I probably doesn't sound like it but I do rate Kidney as a coach. I just feel his conservative selections are going to cost us down the line either when we have an injury crisis during the 6 nations or World Cup or when we have a vast wave of retirements post world cup. I dont think that even the staunchest Kidney supporter can disagree with that (though they probably will)

But surely you must see the major flaw in your argument, yes the age profile he handed over to McGahan was old and we are now in the process of blooding new talent, however his last act as Munster manager was to win a HC he built a team up and stayed with that team for 2 HC's , young fella's need to be putting there hand up for selection on the basis that they are better than the guy in front , not handed game time for the sake of 'blooding them', look at how he brought through O'Connell, O' Callaghan, Earls, Hurley, Dowling, Barry Murphy (who has since been blighted by injury) each of these guys broke into the team on merit. As he says himself you play your best team for the major matches, and it seems to have worked for him going on his track record.

B0X

But this isn't a major match, it is worth nothing but experience, something some players (e.g. Buckley) need badly. Would you not agree that Buckley should be starting this match with a view to develop him into a suitable replacement for Hayes?

Leinster7

Really worried that we aren't gonna be able to compete in this match much.

Major weaksnesses:

Rog - can't tackle
Healy - can't scrummage/gives away too many penos
Trimble - can't kick and questionable under the high ball
D'Arcy - questionable form throughout the last domestic season
John Hayes - average scrummager

imo, this team won't beat the ABs, and I'll be surprised if we can be competitve let alone win one scrummage.

on the plus side fair play to kidney bean for selecting muldoon, thought that was worthy.

I just hope he actually uses the substitutes, y'know from 55mins to 70mins when they can make an impact on the game (and like most other top world teams do), not just at the end of the match when its lost or won (most probably lost).

CatFromHue

im really looking forward to the game

did anyone read the article in the independent that had john kelly talking about playing the kiwis.

he was on the side that came pretty close and prob should have beat them.

he was saying that there was absolutely no pressure on them as they'd be written off beforehand.

very similar to this tour.

yes the ireland team isnt perfect and we are missing players but look at the positives

john hayes will be replaced at 50-60 mins giving prob buckley a good run out

if rog is having an off game or poor defense sexton can come on and offer something the kiwis havent seen from an irish out half

trimble may not be able to kick, i dont know about this granted i havent seen him kick much but he is a good strong runner and gets stuck in

muldoon will be getting his first proper cap against an international side so will be well up for it, same goes for cronin.

and dont forget everyone has wrote this team off

there is no pressure on them, none!

ask me again though at 8.05 on sat morning and hopefully i wont have that sinking feeling :-(

dromdrom

B0X wrote: »

But this isn't a major match, it is worth nothing but experience, something some players (e.g. Buckley) need badly. Would you not agree that Buckley should be starting this match with a view to develop him into a suitable replacement for Hayes?

Beating the All Blacks for the first time is not a big match?, are you serious?. Do you think that this generation of players who have achieved so much success want to treat this match as a training exercise considering they have never in their careers beaten them, not a hope. This is a test match against one of the best teams in the world it does not get much more serious than that.

maddness

I always think we are gonna win.....not this time. AB's by about 20 - 30.

Foxtrol

dromdrom wrote: »

But surely you must see the major flaw in your argument, yes the age profile he handed over to McGahan was old and we are now in the process of blooding new talent, however his last act as Munster manager was to win a HC he built a team up and stayed with that team for 2 HC's , young fella's need to be putting there hand up for selection on the basis that they are better than the guy in front , not handed game time for the sake of 'blooding them', look at how he brought through O'Connell, O' Callaghan, Earls, Hurley, Dowling, Barry Murphy (who has since been blighted by injury) each of these guys broke into the team on merit. As he says himself you play your best team for the major matches, and it seems to have worked for him going on his track record.

The choice he seems to have made is that he wants to play the strongest possible team at every chance he gets. Thats fine if you're winning every game and have a nice spread of injuries to force your hand to play the alternative. However, without experimenting and giving yourself options you will from time to time you back yourself into corners. It already happened during the Scotland game when he couldn't bring on Cronin when best's darts were all over the place. If Flannery was fit you'd be guaranteed Cronin wouldnt be getting game time tomorrow.

In some ways the injuries Ireland have had this season have been a bit of a positive as they forced Kidneys hand into giving experience to certain players such as Healy, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Earls and now Cronin without having to make the tough calls to drop players in order blood others. We're still however in a situation coming into the world cup were Hayes breaks his leg 5 minutes in and we're left with Mushy who has never had proper exposure to the international game. Same with an injury to DOC or POC were Cullen hasn't been given a proper chance to play a run of games with either or how well Jennings would function in for Wally or who would fit in for BOD, is it Earls, Trimble, Bowe, Luke, McFadden? All the SH teams and France have depth that we don't have because they're willing to experiment with a player or two (or a team) and lose during games that have less importance were we only do it when Kidney's hand is forced.

thehighground

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you stand by the age profile and depth he left Munster with after his second reign (the one were he won the silverware you were going on about)?

TBH, I don't think he left it in too bad a state 2 years ago. There are some players who its going to be difficult to replace, but what can you do if they are not as good as what you have. Only problem area really is TH - other than that we have decent enough cover for the next 2/3 years, but just like Leinster & BOD, there are a few of our playes like POC, Wally, Quinlan & ROG who are going to be extremly difficult to replace.

True. My post asked when are these guys going to get some international experience against the top sides. I obviously wasnt clear enough trying to point out that if he wont give these guys experience there's not much chance of giving youngsters a go against decent opposition unless his hand is forced.

Lets see now - Cullen missed the GS year as he was injured. Jennings is surpassed by Sean O'Brien now - so whats the point giving him experience as he is only emergency cover. (apart from the fact that he seems to get injured a fair bit or got suspended at the end of last year so he missed his chance again as he wasn't match fit for the 6Ns.)

Pretty sure everyone of them was down to an injury and not an experimental call.

Having to play Healy would have a knock-on effect. Kidney would not want to put him into an inexperienced front row (such as Buckley & Cronin). It just would not be fair on the rest of the team.

I probably doesn't sound like it but I do rate Kidney as a coach. I just feel his conservative selections are going to cost us down the line either when we have an injury crisis during the 6 nations or World Cup or when we have a vast wave of retirements post world cup. I dont think that even the staunchest Kidney supporter can disagree with that (though they probably will)

We have a awful lot of injuries now - I hope to god it can never be as bad as this again.

thehighground

Foxtrol wrote: »

The choice he seems to have made is that he wants to play the strongest possible team at every chance he gets. Thats fine if you're winning every game and have a nice spread of injuries to force your hand to play the alternative. However, without experimenting and giving yourself options you will from time to time you back yourself into corners. It already happened during the Scotland game when he couldn't bring on Cronin when best's darts were all over the place. If Flannery was fit you'd be guaranteed Cronin wouldnt be getting game time tomorrow.

In some ways the injuries Ireland have had this season have been a bit of a positive as they forced Kidneys hand into giving experience to certain players such as Healy, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Earls and now Cronin without having to make the tough calls to drop players in order blood others. We're still however in a situation coming into the world cup were Hayes breaks his leg 5 minutes in and we're left with Mushy who has never had proper exposure to the international game. Same with an injury to DOC or POC were Cullen hasn't been given a proper chance to play a run of games with either or how well Jennings would function in for Wally or who would fit in for BOD, is it Earls, Trimble, Bowe, Luke, McFadden? All the SH teams and France have depth that we don't have because they're willing to experiment with a player or two (or a team) and lose during games that have less importance were we only do it when Kidney's hand is forced.

The fact that he had to play Healy has impacted elsewhere. Buckley would probably have got a lot more gametime if Horan didn't have his heart problem, not to mention Flannery & Best through suspension & injury. Injury to POC & DOC - there is Donnacha Ryan (now injured), Leo & then MOD at the moment. And ddid you not notice at the 6Ns that Earls was covering centre, wing and FB. (and he scored 2 tries playing there in the 6Ns). Outside centre is now his fulltime postion at club level.

You really need to have a look at the injury list. It could never get as bad as this again.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Having to play Healy would have a knock-on effect. Kidney would not want to put him into an inexperienced front row (such as Buckley & Cronin). It just would not be fair on the rest of the team.

I've heard this point more times than I remember and I'm sorry but it's a pile of crap. Having Hayes there impedes the progress of the rest of the front row because he can't scrummage anymore and that puts everyone under more pressure. His experience counts for absolutely nothing at the moment as he is simply a substandard player.

I wish it wasn't true. The man deserves a better send-off, but he is a liability at the moment and for the life of me I can't see what he is contributing to the Irish side at the moment.

B0X

dromdrom wrote: »

Beating the All Blacks for the first time is not a big match?, are you serious?. Do you think that this generation of players who have achieved so much success want to treat this match as a training exercise considering they have never in their careers beaten them, not a hope. This is a test match against one of the best teams in the world it does not get much more serious than that.

Oh I agree it'd be nice to beat the All Blacks, but if we beat them now (we won't) and next year in the WC they, or others, cream us in the scrum because we have not developed a tight head for when it really matters, we can look back on missed opportunites like these.

I think that this generation of players are professional enough to know that getting valuable experience for newer, essential players would benefit them in the long run rather than trying to run the ABs close (Let's face it, this is going to be a massacre). Having an ancient John Hayes at the world cup won't benefit us, we have to prepare for his send off, the sooner the better.

Judgement Day

Paddy Power has the All Blacks as massive favourites to win this encounter - All Blacks to win @ 1/10; the Draw @ 30/1 and Ireland to win @ 11/2. There is real money but to made on an unlikely Ireland win.

outwest

Hippo wrote: »

You are joking, aren't you?

no im not, darcey form this year has been poor,
wallace is a under rated player,

Ciaran-Irl

outwest wrote: »

no im not, darcey form this year has been poor,
wallace is a under rated player,

Wallace would be overrun by Benson Stanley I'm afraid. If this (45 sec): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cLJrFm09w happened to Paddy Wallace, he would be cut in two.

He just isn't powerful enough for that position at that level.

outwest

last time in newzealand he managed nonu pretty well,

danthefan

Wallace is a good player without a doubt but I think his constant getting injured or getting his head split open for Ireland has counted against him. He spends as much time off the field as on it. And he's not a bench option either.

I hope for the Aus game we see Sexton at 10 and Wallace at 12.

Ciaran-Irl

outwest wrote: »

last time in newzealand he managed nonu pretty well,

Yeah, he had his best ever game in an Ireland shirt in that match as a late call up for Fitzgerald. He hasn't maintained that level by a long way, and that game was a bit of a one off. The conditions were awful, and Nonu had a rubbish game. If he hadn't been a last minute change, they might well have targeted him better the way other teams have.

Ever notice how often wanders off to get stitches?

Jemo

Was just reading an interview with heaslip there where he noted that POC was pack leader and it got me wondering who would be filling that role this weekend with best gone too. I assume it will be up between Jamie, Doc and Wally. Doc would take over the lineout organisation I imagine as Jamie usually stays out in the backs off shortened lineouts. But for me Jamie should still be pack leader, he is the standout figure for Ireland and this is a big opportunity for him to try his hand at official leadership in a big test, and he should assume the captaincy mantle should BOD be forced off. Of course whilst rog is on the pitch it will go to him, but he has enough on his shoulders as it is I believe and isn't guaranteed his place anymore. Doc is the other main candidate, having captained a midweek lions side and is an ever-present in the irish pack.

d'Oracle

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Wallace would be overrun by Benson Stanley I'm afraid. If this (45 sec): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cLJrFm09w happened to Paddy Wallace, he would be cut in two.

He just isn't powerful enough for that position at that level.

Hospital pass.
ROG would look hard given that opportunity.

Ciaran-Irl

d'Oracle wrote: »

Hospital pass.
ROG would look hard given that opportunity.

Look him up on YouTube then so - there are a few other examples. I promise, he is a hard hitter.

A few thoughts before this thread gets out of control.

RE: Hayes first of all.

I agree that he is no longer a suitable TH, he's done his time for Ireland, and I think its a great shame that he is still being trotted out to perform when he is past it. I want to remember him as a servant of the game, and a player who couldn't be moved from the Irish squad as he was invaluable, not a player who played a final 20 caps of below par rugby, when there are legitimate and suitable replacements. This will be a damaging tour for Hayes, and I'm dreading it.

Alternate Selection
Buckley to start with Court on Bench

RE: Mick O'Driscoll

He's pants, a very average player. But so was Mick Galway when it all boiled down to it, and he was an essential member of our pack. He's there to lead, and control the pack, a job he does very well tbh. He doesn't inspire confidence, and he will struggle in pretty much all other aspects of play.

Alternate Selection
Dan Tuohy to start, Ed O'Donoghue/MOD to sub
Really thought Tuohy had a decent game against the Baa Baas, and is unfortunate not to breaking through in the recent spate of injuries.

RE: O'Gara

No point in arguing here, O'Gara wont be able to defend his line against the AB's, he was bulldozed countless times against the Baa Baas, and its nothing new. However, Kidney knows this, so there is obviously coverage in the way of the pack/O'Leary constantly covering his channel too. The AB's will look to exploit the gaps this will create elsewhere in the pitch. I don't have a problem with the rest of his game one bit. I do however think this means we'll be pinning the ball to the corners a lot more than is necessary.

Alternate Selection

J. Sexton - Possibly lacking gametime though, and match fitness. If there was a game prior to the ABs on the tour, we may have seen Sexton starting, but I think he may have needed another week.

Re: D'Arcy

I love D'Arcy, to bits, but an O'Gara/D'Arcy Axis was the wrong choice here imo. I think O'Gara/Wallace and Sexton/D'Arcy are far better balanced pairings, as Wallace has the creative spark that O'Gara can use outside sometimes, while D'Arcy seems to have become a crash ball, quick ball specialist in recent years, all about moving to second phase and tying in their defence, and giving a quick OH like Sexton premium ball to move through the backline.

Alternate Selection
P.Wallace

That all being said, I am of course looking forward to the game, and really hope we can cause an upset. Ireland never really hold the mantle of favourites well into a game, so a return to form as underdogs would be pretty sweet.

dromdrom

The more I think about this game the more positive I am begining to feel, if (and it is a big if) we can keep the scrum penalties to a minimum and if Wallace and TOL can protect O'Gara we have a shot, a longish shot but a shot none the same, Mushy and Murphy for Hayes and Trimble off the bench for the last 25 mins if we are still in it could be very interesting against a young All Black side, for all the talk about McCaw he has been blunted by the new interpretaion at the breakdown and will not have that big of an influence.

I know I am a hopeless optimist but I remember watching France in the first test last year in similiar circumstances and a young inexpierienced All Black side were well beaten in Dunedin which is a more intimidating palce than New Plymouth.

Judgement Day

dromdrom wrote: »

The more I think about this game the more positive I am begining to feel, if (and it is a big if) we can keep the scrum penalties to a minimum and if Wallace and TOL can protect O'Gara we have a shot, a longish shot but a shot none the same, Mushy and Murphy for Hayes and Trimble off the bench for the last 25 mins if we are still in it could be very interesting against a young All Black side, for all the talk about McCaw he has been blunted by the new interpretaion at the breakdown and will not have that big of an influence.

I know I am a hopeless optimist but I remember watching France in the first test last year in similiar circumstances and a young inexpierienced All Black side were well beaten in Dunedin which is a more intimidating palce than New Plymouth.

Do I hear the sound of straws being clutched at? Let's face it, it is in the natural order of things for the All Blacks to triumph, especially at home. The only thing in Ireland's favour is being massive underdogs; nobody seriously expects them to do better than to lose by an acceptable margin. It will take an act of God Bod to save us.

dromdrom

Judgement Day wrote: »

Do I hear the sound of straws being clutched at? Let's face it, it is in the natural order of things for the All Blacks to triumph, especially at home. The only thing in Ireland's favour is being massive underdogs; nobody seriously expects them to do better than to lose by an acceptable margin. It will take an act of God Bod to save us.

I am certainly grasping at straws! However am more hopeful than I was that we can be very compettive and if its still there with 20 mins to go maybe for once it might go our way, usually when we play the all blacks we are outclassed in every position, however this time I think that our back 3 , centres and 8 are superior with the rest being reasonably competitive.

heybaby

Alas i simply cannot see anything other than an all black victory in this game. Granted the all blacks are fielding the greenest team in years with 5 or 6 debutants, but the margin of victory will really be up to how much they really want it. The very fact they are fielding so many inexperienced players at test level just shows how little they fear our boys. I agree with another poster about Hayes' ill-advised inclusion on this tour, he has been an incredible servant to the irish cause but to continue to play him is tantamount to abusing a national treasure, it makes utterly no sense in playing him, and the onus is on Kidney to mould a replacement, the fact that Kidney hasnt is a real issue, in fact if o sullivan did the same thing, we would be calling for his head, i think Kidney's benefitting from alot of good will here. MOD is no POC and I believe we will struggle on our own lineout, the scrum as we know will really suffer, and Im concerned that darcy and bod are knackered and havent been as potent an attacking combo of late. All blacks by 20plus.

sock puppet

dromdrom wrote: »

I am certainly grasping at straws! However am more hopeful than I was that we can be very compettive and if its still there with 20 mins to go maybe for once it might go our way, usually when we play the all blacks we are outclassed in every position, however this time I think that our back 3 , centres and 8 are superior with the rest being reasonably competitive.

Their centres are better than ours although they haven't played together which will favour us. Read is a very good number 8 too. Our front five and halfbacks are nowhere near as good as New Zealand's. Still I'm still optimistic. Poorer teams on paper can sometimes win.

ktulu123

I've to go to Galway for the weekend, is there any pubs or places that will be open and showing the match?

Cheers

outwest

doubt, it rugby is a bad word to galway publicans.

many times a man u match was put on during rugby,

handsomecake

dromdrom wrote: »

I am certainly grasping at straws! However am more hopeful than I was that we can be very compettive and if its still there with 20 mins to go maybe for once it might go our way, usually when we play the all blacks we are outclassed in every position, however this time I think that our back 3 , centres and 8 are superior with the rest being reasonably competitive.

dagg,rokococo, and jane are miles better then kearney,trimble and murphy.
kearney never passes.he kicks or takes it in to contact. trimble is average,murphy average.
i cant comment on stanley vs darcy as stanley is an unknown quantity at test level,(i know dagg is too ,but this guy is the real deal).despite arguments to the contrary on this forum,conrad smith is a better centre then o driscoll.
kieran read is easily as good as heaslip and 2 years younger.
take the rose tinters off lads...... im a realist

redroar1942

handsomecake wrote: »

dagg,rokococo, and jane are miles better then kearney,trimble and murphy.
kearney never passes.he kicks or takes it in to contact. trimble is average,murphy average.
i cant comment on stanley vs darcy as stanley is an unknown quantity at test level,(i know dagg is too ,but this guy is the real deal).despite arguments to the contrary on this forum,conrad smith is a better centre then o driscoll.
kieran read is easily as good as heaslip and 2 years younger.
take the rose tinters off lads...... im a realist

Dagg has played one season in S14 when he got dropped half way through but he's already a better player then Kearney?
Don't know where you're getting Murphy from but Bowe is the best winger on the pitch, Rokococo is only just starting to show his pre 2007 form again.
Jane is a fine 15 and a decent winger but Trimble will hardly be shaking in his boots.

Smith is a super player but feeds off Nonu for space. He'll still be a threat but isn't as affective without Nonu.
Stanley gets in by default of being the only fully fit half decent 12 in NZ. They really need SBW back in the long white cloud.

Mate I love your passion but your glasses are so tinted black you must go around with a labrador and a white stick.