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Physician Assistant from RCSI

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13

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    #62
    shanraghPA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭shanraghPA


    IPNA wrote: »
    I am not saying that PAs will be welcomed with open arms here in Ireland. When they first started in the US in the 1970s it was a hard fight to get recognition.

    IPNA is really on target here. There are going to be supporters and there are going to be critics, but there are going to be a far greater number of doubters and 'wait and see-ers' :rolleyes:. Not sure about the word, but anyway... This doubt will be pervasive and we will win the trust and support of the Irish medical community only by constant attention to professionalism, education about our role, and good patient care!!

    This is not about imposing the US system of healthcare in another country (egads!!). What this proposal is trying to do is take the best that other systems have found success with (in many other countries) and do our part to improve the Irish Healthcare system. Check out this article on the Globalization of the PA Profession: http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/25227


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    #63
    ORLY?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭ORLY?


    IPNA wrote: »
    He also said that he has talked with several hospitals in Ireland who said that they would be happy to hire PAs as soon as they graduate.

    Hired as what? There is no PA role in the HSE.


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    #64
    shanraghPA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭shanraghPA


    There will be. You won't HAVE to see a PA, but you will one day, and it won't be that scary! :eek:


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    #65
    ORLY?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭ORLY?


    shanraghPA wrote: »
    There will be. You won't HAVE to see a PA, but you will one day, and it won't be that scary! :eek:

    IPNA said he was told they would be hired as soon as they graduate, this is students in the UK starting in 2011 that he is talking about. That is NOT true. Hospitals can't do jack without HSE say so. The HSE won't be creating new roles without Dept. of Finance say so and that won't be coming any time soon. No way it's happening by 2013.


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    #66
    shanraghPA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭shanraghPA


    What IPNA said was "they would be happy to hire PAs as soon as they graduate" not that they would or could hire them. I think he was speaking to the feasibility for hiring as expressed by the opinions of local authorities.

    Ease up, jack.


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    #67
    ORLY?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭ORLY?


    shanraghPA wrote: »
    What IPNA said was "they would be happy to hire PAs as soon as they graduate" not that they would or could hire them. I think he was speaking to the feasibility for hiring as expressed by the opinions of local authorities.

    Ease up, jack.

    Really? Telling people that particular hospitals have said that they "would be happy to hire them as soon as they graduate", when in reality there is no way they could even consider hiring them, is disingenous, misleading, dishonest and almost fraudulent. People going into these courses need a clear picture of their employment opportunities. They will be spending thousands, moving, giving up jobs, all on the basis of what they are told by the people running them.


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    #68
    shanraghPA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭shanraghPA


    I am truly amazed by the tangential slant you are able to extract from each and every post!

    This is not about being dishonest, this is about conducting due diligence. If you want to sell ice cream you do a market analysis of the number of kids, if you want to sell widjits you find out how many people would want to (theoretically) use your widjits, if you want to provide an educational program you find out how many hospital administrators would be interested in hiring the individual. With accreditation of any new program, that's often the way of it. You can't get accreditation without the training program and you can't continue a training program without accreditation.

    I'm expecting a smart alec comparison between PAs and widjits, so please oblige me. Everybody loves a cute :p, nobody loves a smart :mad:. Y'all figure it out.


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    #69
    ORLY?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭ORLY?


    shanraghPA wrote: »
    I am truly amazed by the tangential slant you are able to extract from each and every post!

    I'm not putting a slant on anything, the way that the statement was phrased suggests that there would be job opportunities available for PAs when they graduate. Most reasonable people would agree, I think.

    If I met with a potential employer and was told that they'd be "happy to hire me as soon as I graduate", I'd take it to mean that there would be a place for me with them.

    Even the concept of the hospital really mattering is misleading, there being happy or not with PAs is irrelevant. It's the HSE that allocates the posts.


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    #70
    shanraghPA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭shanraghPA


    OK, well I think the intent of the post was to convey that there is a level of acceptance of the idea of training and posting PAs to positions within the medical community. Step 1 - there is initial agreement of the feasibility of PAs in the Irish Healthcare system, public or private. Step 2 - pilot.


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    #71
    ORLY?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭ORLY?


    shanraghPA wrote: »
    OK, well I think the intent of the post was to convey that there is a level of acceptance of the idea of training and posting PAs to positions within the medical community. Step 1 - there is initial agreement of the feasibility of PAs in the Irish Healthcare system, public or private. Step 2 - pilot.

    I think you're being a bit presumptive there. Your Step 1, is NO WAY NEAR being done. Not in Ireland anyway.


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    #72
    shanraghPA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭shanraghPA


    Like my mother said, "You won't know till after", but I think you're wrong.

    The Irish people are dog tired of not getting the care they need. Emergency Departments are strained to the last. Junior Doctors need a break. Consultants like the control they have over PAs, many of whom are already familiar with the PA role from their training outside of the country, whether that be the Netherlands, Australia or America. Ireland is ready for this additional resource.

    Like I said before, PAs are not a panacea, but it is a partial solution that increases patient access and enhances the overall quality of care.


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    #73
    lonestargirl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭lonestargirl


    shanraghPA wrote: »
    Like my mother said, "You won't know till after", but I think you're wrong.

    The Irish people are dog tired of not getting the care they need. Emergency Departments are strained to the last. Junior Doctors need a break. Consultants like the control they have over PAs, many of whom are already familiar with the PA role from their training outside of the country, whether that be the Netherlands, Australia or America. Ireland is ready for this additional resource.

    Like I said before, PAs are not a panacea, but it is a partial solution that increases patient access and enhances the overall quality of care.


    I am going to repeat word-for-word a point I made in the very first page.

    I think you are being very naive about how long this legislative change make take to enact. I'd advise you to read up on the RIAI and their campaign to register the profession of architect in Ireland. This started before the foundation of the state and was finally completed with the passing of the Building Control Act in 2007.


    However there is at least one PA already employed as a surgical assist in a private hospital in Ireland - I've met her.


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    #74
    IPNA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭IPNA


    Lonestar you have a point, but we did have architects working in Ireland before 2007. And you have met a PA working in Ireland.

    So this new PA graduates could feasibly find work without legislation.

    I agree with shanraghPA. It is a horse and cart problem. We need to see where it goes and not shoot the horse because we don't agree with this new modality.


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    #75
    lonestargirl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭lonestargirl


    IPNA wrote: »
    Lonestar you have a point, but we did have architects working in Ireland before 2007. And you have met a PA working in Ireland.

    The architect situation is the reverse of the PA situation. There was no law governing the name 'architect' therefore any Tom, Dick or Harry could set up practice and call themselves an architect. We do have legislation covering who can and can't prescribe medication and at this moment in time there is no provision within that for PAs. I was using the architect example as a demonstration of how long it can take legislation of this nature to be passed Ireland (a bad thing imo).
    IPNA wrote: »
    So this new PA graduates could feasibly find work without legislation.

    Only as a surgical assist, they would not be able even order an x-ray as that requires you to be on the medical register.


    As I've said before I'm not anti-PA, I think there is a role for them. I just think it's wrong of RCSI to market the course when there is currently no understanding of how it's going to work in Ireland.


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    #76
    shanraghPA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭shanraghPA


    Is the RCSI actually marketing a course? I haven't found anything on that, but would love to see something if you have a reference?

    On prescribing authority, there is little consistency, even amongst states in the US, on what PAs are allowed to prescribe. I've worked in both restrictive prescribing authority states and liberal states (red and blue ;)), and it doesn't functionally make a difference in practice if you have a proper relationship with your supervising physician. Its an extra step, but ultimately do-able. I would favor initially restrictive as compared to liberal privileges to ensure that the medical community and the public are comfortable with prescribing privileges. Privileges can always be expanded over time.

    http://www.aapa.org/images/stories/Advocacy-state-summaries/Rx_Chart.pdf


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    #77
    IPNA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭IPNA


    Good point.

    It seems that people will focus quickly on the prescription rights but health care providers can do most of their practise without the need to write a script.

    That is the beauty of the PA system. There is always a doctor in the building who can prescribe. It only takes a minute for the PA to leave the consultation room and get a script from his boss.


    Also, the RCSI is not advertising the PA programme. If you try to find information there really isn't anything out there. I don't think that they are trying to pull a fast one on us.

    I agree with the concept that academic institutions are looking for a profit and are focused primarily on the bottom line. That being said, if they pushed a product (PA programme) that is illegal, they will never get more than a couple years of cohort students through before being shut down.
    That doesn't make fiscal sense. The cost to create and start a new academic programme is immense. The administration needs to get return on that investment and will do anything to make sure that there will be decades of students coming for their product.


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    #78
    C r i o s t o i r
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭C r i o s t o i r


    IPNA wrote: »
    I talked with Emeka Okereke from the RCSI. He said that they are planning on starting the two year Physician Assistant programme for the fall 2011. It will be held at the Stephen's Green campus.

    Are there any others out there interested in this?

    As a Physicians Assistant you will work as a Junior Doctor throughout Ireland.

    Are there any jobs/training opportunities opening up for the new graduates from the UK. As Im one of them and would love the chance to work in Ireland :D


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    #79
    IPNA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭IPNA


    According to David Kuhns who runs the Birmingham PA programme and is working directly with RCSI to design their curriculum, there are PAs working in private hospitals around Ireland.

    I would suggest that you talk to the human resources office of each of the private hospitals that you would want to work here in Ireland and see if they are hiring.

    It is only a matter of time before awareness of the PA role increases and the demand goes up.


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    #80
    Vinegar Hill
    Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭Vinegar Hill


    Here is a brief description on what exactly a PA is and what responsibilities they have. Yes I am a PA and live in Ireland. I have been a PA for 15 years now.
    The American Academy of Physician Assistants is the only national organization to represent physician assistants in all medical and surgical specialties. Physician assistants are certified by the National Commission on Certification of Physician Assistants (NCCPA) – a mark of professional accomplishment – and state-licensed. They are health professionals who practice medicine as members of a team with their supervising physicians. PAs deliver a broad range of medical and surgical services to diverse populations in rural and urban settings. As part of their comprehensive responsibilities, PAs conduct physical exams, diagnose and treat illnesses, order and interpret tests, counsel on preventive health care, assist in surgery, and prescribe medications. Founded in 1968, the Academy works to promote quality, cost effective health care and the professional and personal growth of PAs.

    http://www.aapa.org/about-pas

    A PA has credentials certifying every task that he is proficient in performing. This credentialing packet is prepared for the PA student while he is in school and each task is verified by a Physician.

    PAs can perform every task (and has credentials for most every task) that a GP in Ireland can currently perform. These tasks include taking a patient history, detailed physical examinations, ordering lab and x-rays as needed, interrupting these results, and in most states prescribing medications based on his diagnosis. If at any time the PA is unsure or needs to consult with a physician then he is required to do just that. Most PA programs require at least 2 years of the basic sciences before they can even apply. Additionally, only applicants with a medical background are considered. Usually paramedics or nurses. PAs graduate from their training after 4 additional years training, one of which is a year long residency in a hospital. They usually have earned a MSc degree. During the residency phase the PA attends all the clinics in the hospital and has multiple tasks that must be performed and the PA credentialed by the Supervising Physician.

    PAs are required to be certified by the National Registry in the US. This registration process involves sitting medical examinations every 6 years. Additionally, there are specific Continuing Medical Education (CME) requirements that must be met every 2 years.

    I would be willing to answer any questions about a Physician Assistant and his capabilities. You can PM me if you like.

    In short PAs are health care professionals. They are not a replacement for physicians and in fact work as part of a health care team that involves a supervising physician. And for the record, I am board certified in Emergency Medicine.


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    #81
    ORLY?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭ORLY?


    You are a PA in Ireland? Do you mind me asking what you are working at at the moment?


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    #82
    C r i o s t o i r
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭C r i o s t o i r


    @Vinegar Hill. Hi; what county in Ireland are you working in and are you in Hospital or general practice? How have you found the Irish on the role of the P.A.?


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    #83
    Vinegar Hill
    Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭Vinegar Hill


    @O R L Y and C r i o s t o i r, Yes I live in Ireland but I have not been able to find employment in Ireland as a PA. I live in Donegal. I am currently working abroad and return to Ireland frequently because my family is there. I am on a contract that will finish in October and I do not plan to return.

    The news is however that the PA profession is up and running in the UK, US, Canada, and Australia to name a few. Most NATO countries in Europe also have PAs in their military. I practiced for several years in Germany as a PA. There are several countries worldwide now training and or utilising PAs. A brief list of those and the reports can be found here.

    http://www.aapa.org/advocacy-and-practice-resources/practice-resources/international/international-update

    Ireland is currently looking into the PA profession and how it may benefit from it. This investigation is in it's infancy but interest is growing. I apologise if I gave the impression that I was currently working in Ireland.


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    #84
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Vinegar Hill wrote: »
    ...interrupting these results...

    I sincerely hope you mean "interpreting"!


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    #85
    HS41
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭HS41


    Hi,
    as I have prepared a PA programme in Baden-Wuerttemberg (B-W, a State in Germany) I know the problems caused by missing legal detail regulations doing physician's work by non-physicians but well trained persons (e.g. PAs).
    So the first I did was to prepare a law in the State Parliament in B-W. This Law passed in june 2010. Based on this law the Ministry of Health was able to issue a regulation that
    (a) permits selected tasks to be done by a PA
    (b) prescribes a state-controlled examination system (medical, scientific, practical)
    (c) protects "Physician Assistant" and "Arztassistent" names to be used after having passed (b)

    1st of october we began with 12 students at the Karlsruhe Campus of the DHBW (State University of Co-operative Education in Baden-Wuerttemberg)

    Some more information: B-W has 11 million inhabitants, Capital is Stuttgart, the 8 campus of the DHBW have 25000 students

    Cooperations with: AAPA, UKAPA, NAPA, and DGPA

    Excuse, please: my really-not-so-good English


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    #86
    C r i o s t o i r
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭C r i o s t o i r


    Is there any update on the introduction of PA's in Ireland either as job posts or education training programs.
    thanks.


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    #87
    JodiRook
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭JodiRook


    Vinegar Hill wrote: »
    @O R L Y and C r i o s t o i r, Yes I live in Ireland but I have not been able to find employment in Ireland as a PA. I live in Donegal. I am currently working abroad and return to Ireland frequently because my family is there. I am on a contract that will finish in October and I do not plan to return.

    The news is however that the PA profession is up and running in the UK, US, Canada, and Australia to name a few. Most NATO countries in Europe also have PAs in their military. I practiced for several years in Germany as a PA. There are several countries worldwide now training and or utilising PAs. A brief list of those and the reports can be found here.

    http://www.aapa.org/advocacy-and-practice-resources/practice-resources/international/international-update

    Ireland is currently looking into the PA profession and how it may benefit from it. This investigation is in it's infancy but interest is growing. I apologise if I gave the impression that I was currently working in Ireland.

    Hi I am a PA-C living in Dublin I am intersted in speaking with Any PA's here, please PM me. ..j


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    #88
    JodiRook
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭JodiRook


    RE not needing to write your own RX... I tried that, in Texas, on a Temp license, and NO ONE wants to work with you if they have to sign 40 Rx a day for you, they see there own PTs and you will be waiting at there door, or bugging them all day for a sig, you have to be able to write your own Rx or you just cant keep up with Patient flow or write orders for meds on charts. I have a DEA but I do not know how that would help me if I ever found work in Northern Ireland. I hope it comes to ROI soon


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    #89
    jodi rook
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭jodi rook


    I am now back in America working a 3 year contract. I was in Dublin 2 years and could find nothing. I had to leave my husband behind, we want to pay our home off. My question is ...
    What do you see in local legislature showing the role of the PA coming to that area? I want to live with my husband again, AND be able to work. He has told me that PA's come to Ireland will ''never happen'' . I need to find something out there , I love my new job, but he doesn't want to move to America, and I need to work for both my own personal happiness and our finances.


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    #90
    jodi rook
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭jodi rook


    ps I forgot my old password so I can be reached at jodi_rook@yahoo.com


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    #91
    loopylulu
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭loopylulu


    I know this thread is a few years old now but I spotted on the RCSI website today that a postgraduate taught 2 yr course (leading to P. grad Diploma or Masters is enrolling for January 2016. http://www.rcsi.ie/PA


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