AIRGUNS YOUR VIEWS ON THEM.

Sam I Am

While I see the point and like the idea of licencing the user rather than licencing the firearm. It would mean that someone who is only interested in air rifle has to pass the same level of scrutiny, club membership, lands to shoot on, home security (monitored alarm etc etc) as someone who wants to own 1 of everything, from air rifle to, I dunno, an AK47 (or some other super duper excessive something or other).
This is of course all hypothetical, if only discussion, but how about a system whereby you are licenced to own/use a particular class of firearm - as with the driving licence... just cos I'm able to drive a car, doesn't mean I should head off in an artic.

juice1304

just like in the states you mean

Grizzly 45

Err,No??Certain types of irearms in the US are liscensed on a federal level.It is a myth that everything is freely available over there.
Well coming back to dealing with air rifles.Most of the world sees them as in the non firearm category too,as they dont use a powder charge to propel the bullet.We just had to be one better here in the 1960s I guess...,have heard the story that the "Usual suspects" were converting them to fire .22 LR ammo..If they were doing that...why not just build yourself a homemade SMG it is just as complicated and more effective.
So by rights,air guns should be off ticket items..But because of Moron abuse,it wont happen.

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

Careful what ye wish for lads. The UK model also includes police checks on lands to determine if they're suitable for a certain calibre, or not, if you have a closed ticket.

You should study the guidelines again :eek:

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

You should study the guidelines again :eek:

I've read them, not my fault you've no mountains

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

I've read them, not my fault you've no mountains

I have they're just not in my immediate area My point would be that is this not the beginning of the Gardai "checking" the proposed area for the firearm sought as they do in UK?

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

I have they're just not in my immediate area My point would be that is this not the beginning of the Gardai "checking" the proposed area for the firearm sought as they do in UK?

Possibly could be alright. I'd question how well they could implement such a system given the complete lack of checkpoints for drink driving etc I see in this part of the world since budget/over time cutbacks. If they can't do that job, they surely can't spare people to check land. I won't go near having an informed opinion on what calibres that land would be fit for as it may well ruin my day thinking about it.

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

Possibly could be alright. I'd question how well they could implement such a system given the complete lack of checkpoints for drink driving etc I see in this part of the world since budget/over time cutbacks. If they can't do that job, they surely can't spare people to check land. I won't go near having an informed opinion on what calibres that land would be fit for as it may well ruin my day thinking about it.

I agree with you 100% BUT look you hardly expect common sense to be a part of it though

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

I agree with you 100% BUT look you hardly expect common sense to be a part of it though

Expecting common sense is often a bridge too far.

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

Expecting common sense is often a bridge too far.

Ya, unfortunately

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If they were doing that...why not just build yourself a homemade SMG it is just as complicated and more effective.
.

They did :eek:

Grizzly 45

An "Ulster funnygun" or "Harland&Wollf Special";) Crude,homemade,and 100% more effective than some monkeyd together single shot .22 air rifle converted to fire .22lr rounds.:rolleyes:

cavan shooter

I thought about getting a 22 air rifle but at €1000 for weiruch went for a 22 rimfire instead. Dont get me wrong I used a top of the range pneumatic, but I found that a very good one with decent accuracy and range couldnt stand side by side to even a inexpensive rimfire. Yes I know Im not comparing like for like, however in the end I stuck to rimfires.

IMO all firearms except for airsoft toys should be licenced, I dont believe in being able to buy over the counter firearms without some "control". This annoys some people and I am sure I'll be slapped into my box shortly,

You cant ignore the fact that some plick will buy an air rifle etc and act the maggot with it etc etc shooting cats, dogs and even cars as has happened in the UK.

a licence acts as a deterent in many instances, you have to show you have a good reason,
some spare cash,
and an interest (member of a club) or at least you went to an effort to get farmers signatures.

ivanthehunter

Look if you're into vermin control in a hobby way, you're let down by not having access to an air rifle--
All too often the rimfires are simply too powerful to be considered around farmyards and "house locked fields".. To be an all-rounder at the vermin control you need to be able to meet land owners requests to deal with vermin under any circumstances....
Here the inherently Irish unavailability of air rifles due to our indifferent licencing policies regarding air rifles verses reg rifle, has left safe shooters at a disadvantage, unsafe shooter are taking risky shots..




Also
IMO it should be common practice that any rifle hunter should be allow hold one 12ft/lb air-rifle against their name. The control could be set by registration as it is in Spain by any 16 year old kid..

I would not like to see the system that allows for uncontrolled sales to any body over 18.... I'd feel as if i should go out walking wearing safety glasses:eek:....

The powers that be are not going to allow individuals to buy all their guns on one licence but some common sense might seep through and allow the addition of an air rifle to an existing standard rifle licence..

To be able to deal with vermin one should have access to
an air rifle, a rimfire, a shotgun and a foxing grade rifle.

Grizzly 45

IMO all firearms except for airsoft toys should be licenced, I dont believe in being able to buy over the counter firearms without some "control". This annoys some people and I am sure I'll be slapped into my box shortly,

You cant ignore the fact that some plick will buy an air rifle etc and act the maggot with it etc etc shooting cats, dogs and even cars as has happened in the UK.

Trouble is an air rifle is only seen as a "firearm " here in Ireland.The PTB anywhere else classify it as a non firearm,as they do spear guns,crossbows and anything else that does not use a powder propellant in an enclosed cartridge case.In some cases even muzzle loaders that are single shot can be bought no problem.You need to liscense the powder component.So in Europe in some parts,you can have rakes of different types of BP single barrel muskets or rifles,or pistols no problem as wall hangers,as you wont get the powder for them without a seperate liscense.[Germany]
Others ,you can buy any BP firearm and ammo over the counter,provided you are a resident without any registration [France]
Poland sells over the counter air rifles that are well over the12ftlb limit,Ditto ASFIK Spain
Both countries sell airguns freely and yet you NEVER hear of them being abused by Numpties over there,and there are plenty of muppetts over there as well.With more opportunities to create problems.. So why is it that we seem to either have [a] a growing pouplation of idiots and morons who ruin it for everyone else?? a more totalitarian govt in both Ireland and the UK on this [c] maybe because we have unarmed police forces,and the continent they are armed,so the chance of some fool mucking around with an air rifle might attract a leathl response from the copper on the beat?? Think it is a combo of all three.:(

ivanthehunter

The problem here from the get-go is that rifles are not divided in to classes for the purpose of licencing.

A first time licence shooter can successfully apply for a 223 or a 270 without ever building up any skill with a little rimfire first..:eek:

And i hear you about the BP muzzle loader issue-- hobbys are being severely curtailed if your an average earner. If you filthy rich you can go buy any amount of original BP muzzle loading rifles at 10-15K a pop with out licence. But if you want a skillfully crafted working reproduction then its licence time plus 2-3k???.. wheres the extra danger that warrants such a policy??? FIIK?..

A vermin shooters needs at least four guns IMO and if the government thought one caliber would suit all then we'd only be allowed one..

daveob007

It all comes down to the fact that airguns are not classed as such here but classed as firearms which is a joke if you look at other countries who do not even licence them.
We can use far more powerful firearms for hunting/vermin but have to join a range for the use of a .177 air pistol or air rifle which has hugely less lethal power than even a .22 rimfire.
Even if they still insisted on a licence they could at least allow the use of airguns on private land for target shooting or even on your own property.
We do seriously need a new system where all guns are broken down into their various categories unlike the new system that declares a firearm/airgun as restriced or not.
I don't want them licence free because there will be ass___es who will shoot you dog or break your windows,or injure you child,but would like to the laws been relaxed in relation to airguns that go up to a certain power limit.
Some people are afraid that yobbos will abuse them but the fact is that there are plenty of them around because they are simple to bring into this country form the uk/france/spain by people who go on hols.
Even before airsoft was allowed here loads of young fellas were bringing them home from spain and little trouble was caused,the same goes for airguns.but theres always one that will do the stupid thing.
The novelty wears off pretty quickly unless you are a shooter and many sheds and attics around the country have these things rusting away after the novelty has worn off.

ivanthehunter

daveob007 wrote: »

The novelty wears off pretty quickly unless you are a shooter

The reality is that vermin shooters here in Ireland can not commit to buy an expensive air rifle, not because of cost but because of the unwritten policy of limiting the number of firearms an individual owns.
IMO most people are put of with the idea of confrontation with the authorities about firearms and will opt out of such confrontation for any number of reasons ranging from financial to fear, but thats just my opinion.

This harsh reality is compounded by the restrictions of use as set out in the wildlife acts with the main issue revolving around bird shooting or its statues as illegal, yet we have all heard of citizens being granted written permission for the local Garda Stn's to carry out that very act.

I'm unsure of the existence of a legislative policy that allows for such permissions to be granted by An Garda but the simple fact remains that this piece of legislation is unworkable and cannot be adhered and the garda could vouch for that if they were all for fair play.

Air rifles IMO should not be counted on the "Security requirements" as long as its under a stated energy value. I'd like to see 12 or 18 ft/lb units available and i even pay the 80euro/(I'd licence it!) and lock it up---but its seems laughable that a shotgun can sit in a house with no safe and that buying a limited power air rifle could put you into the monitored alarm zone or higher:mad:

landkeeper

modern airguns ar far from toys , and are a fantasic way for a young lad to learn how to judge range and distance , it's a shame in my book that it's not possible to get an airrifle here without all the rigmarole , i don't think that they should be uncontrolled but a simple system could licence them if needs be , an air rifle is a versatile and usefull addition to anyones collection , rats in and around buildings etc quietly and safely , i grew up with a succession of air rifles starting with a humble bsa airsporter , through various wiehrauchs and feinwerkbraus in fact i bought my first shotgun nearly 30 years ago with money earned shooting rabbits for the local game dealer @ pound a piece and pigeons coming in to roost ah happy memories
it'd be good to see the airifle as a option for young lads to learn with

ivanthehunter

landkeeper wrote: »

it'd be good to see the airifle as a option for young lads to learn with

This POV is probably noted by the British military machine.. IMO;)

kildare.17hmr

I agree with landkeeper some sort of simple system would be much better and get young people into the sport. simple fact is that if some little muppet wants 1 to break windows of shoot the neighbours cat he'll get 1 if its legal r not but the way it is now its 2 expensive for young people to get involved! im 25 and was always into shooting so i joined the FCA and was on shooting team for years and only now can i afford to own a rifle myself. would have had an air rifle long ago and used it propperly if things had of been different

tac foley

ivanthehunter wrote: »

If you filthy rich you can go buy any amount of original BP muzzle loading rifles at 10-15K a pop with out licence. But if you want a skillfully crafted working reproduction then its licence time plus 2-3k???..

Sir - a slight thread drift, if you will. The whole point about Black powder shooting firearms is that they are substantially CHEAPER than modern high-grade steel nitro-propellant firearms. With very few exceptions, a high-grade replica Colt from Uberti or Pietta will cost less than a third the price of ANY Smith & Wesson revolver made, let alone a semi-auto full bore pistol. Second-hand BP handguns are almost ludicrously easy on the pocket - there are a few in my local gun-store for less than £100.

Rifles and muskets, depending on what era interests you, are again substantially cheaper, even when brand new, than 90% of most modern centre-fire rifles.

True, the upper level of cartridge-shooting target rifles, like the Sharps and Remington rolling block, can be comparatively pricey - but all I see on THIS forum is a large number of shooters with eu2000 rifles topped with eu1000 scopes, shooting expensive ammunition. I can shoot my .451 Whitworth rifle replica for about 10c a shot - out to 1200 yards...............any of my BP handguns can be shot for literally all day for less than an old punt.

Come over here and I'll be happy to show you how cheap BP shooting CAN be.

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Rovi

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - a slight thread drift, if you will. The whole point about Black powder shooting firearms is that they are substantially CHEAPER than modern high-grade steel nitro-propellant firearms. With very few exceptions, a high-grade replica Colt from Uberti or Pietta will cost less than a third the price of ANY Smith & Wesson revolver made, let alone a semi-auto full bore pistol. Second-hand BP handguns are almost ludicrously easy on the pocket - there are a few in my local gun-store for less than £100.

Rifles and muskets, depending on what era interests you, are again substantially cheaper, even when brand new, than 90% of most modern centre-fire rifles.

True, the upper level of cartridge-shooting target rifles, like the Sharps and Remington rolling block, can be comparatively pricey - but all I see on THIS forum is a large number of shooters with eu2000 rifles topped with eu1000 scopes, shooting expensive ammunition. I can shoot my .451 Whitworth rifle replica for about 10c a shot - out to 1200 yards...............any of my BP handguns can be shot for literally all day for less than an old punt.

Come over here and I'll be happy to show you how cheap BP shooting CAN be.

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The problem here Tac, is that unless the BP firearm is a genuine antique, it falls under exactly the same laws as modern cartridge firearms, to say nothing of the practical impossibility of legally getting hold of the Black Powder or even a modern substitute.

ivanthehunter

Rovi wrote: »

The problem here Tac, is that unless the BP firearm is a genuine antique, it falls under exactly the same laws as modern cartridge firearms,

It seems that the ownership of such originals is outside the grasp of the average individual due mainly to the high prices of these rare items and so the take up on these originals is natural slow..

However it seems that somehow a lower priced exact reproduction is an item to be licenced. even though it presents the same hazards as the original.

I fail to see how this is even allowed in our modern society. It smacks of one law for the rich and another for the poor..

Are working guns not controlled enough in this nanny state!!

Would love to have a Sharps but cant justify the cost of even a reproduction anytime soon:(

tac foley

ivanthehunter wrote: »

However it seems that somehow a lower priced exact reproduction is an item to be licenced. even though it presents the same hazards as the original.

Sir, you mean, I hope, that its improper use can be equally lethal.

It is a matter of extreme irony that here in UK I can possess a genuine American Civil War Model 1861 Springfield musket without any form of licencing whatsoever, but as you say, a replica has to be licensed exactly the same as a .50cal MacMillan or AI.

Sadly the same rules pertain to the Sharps rifle/carbine - as the 45-70 ammunition used for most of them is still available - AND the Trapdoor Springfield. But NOT the Snider..nobody, it seems is making .557 Boxer ammunition these days.

Best

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ivanthehunter

Yes
The same hazards..

Even if you choose to make one- as thousands do worldwide each year, you'd find yourself at odds with the law and have to splash out a 1000euro for a firearms dealers licence IIRC

The genuine enthusiast finds obstacles at every turn.. and not all are logical, fair or proportionally adjusted to suit..

Its like the medieval reenactment issue of building mock weapons with low energy's and soft projectiles- as such they cant legally build some of them with out a RFD's licence again..
Surely these people should be given an exception immediately but really the whole firearms issue needs redress.

firefly08

You cant ignore the fact that some plick will buy an air rifle etc and act the maggot with it etc etc shooting cats, dogs and even cars as has happened in the UK.

because there will be ass___es who will shoot you dog or break your windows,or injure you child

This attitude is everything that's wrong with the firearms/licensing situation in this country, IMO. Not to pick on you guys in particular, of course - these quotes are just 2 examples of the kind of response I see all the time here.

It seems to suggest that when people are ignoring the laws, the solution is...more laws. Do you realize that even if all firearms were unlicensed, shooting people, and people's pets and property would still be illegal?

Although this may not be the intent of people who hold that opinion, you really are basically saying that people can do what they like and are not responsible for their own actions. If someone shoots you, then the government has failed you by not stopping that person from owning a gun. Bull****.

My opinion on the original question is: completely de-regulate air rifles for every adult with no record of violent crime - but start holding people responsible when they hurt other people, regardless of what tool they use.

daveob007

I can see where you are coming from but the fact is that we shooters get the stick if just 1 idiot acts the maggot
99% of us would not misuse airguns if they were licence free but it just takes one to damage the sport.
a simple letter of permission from your super should be enough to allow ownership and not our draconian system.
If someone has criminal intent to cause injury or damage they will do it without an airgun anyway but we need some basic control for our sakes so the chances of abuse are minimal,they media would have a field day if your neighbours cat gets a pellet in the ass,or worse a child.
Airgunning is a great sport and good way to get started in shooting or even continue in airgun sports and its an awful pity we cannot enjoy it like our neighbours in the uk/france/spain etc etc

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

a simple letter of permission from your super should be enough to allow ownership and not our draconian system.

If the super's willing to give that letter, 99.999% of the time they'd give a licence as well, so it's not exactly a great advance.

Besides, airsoft is still going strong, and someone shot a female garda in the face with an airsoft in the first month that they became legal to buy here.
They didn't ban airsoft, they just arrested the little thug that did it.
And a few years back when some thug was shooting people on pearse street with a hunting air rifle, they didn't ban air rifles, they arrested the thug who was doing it (and he didn't have a licence either btw).

Point being, paperwork isn't as effective as enforcing existing law. (It does, however, require you to pay for gardai...)

Airgunning is a great sport and good way to get started in shooting or even continue in airgun sports and its an awful pity we cannot enjoy it like our neighbours in the uk/france/spain etc etc

I seem to recall that the UK, France and Spain all have far more serious problems with "troubled youths" - the UK has had to invent an entirely new sanction for them (ASBOs). If they can do it, so can we. It's therefore not a case of there being some legislative or mechanical or technical or social reason against it; it's just a political one. Change a "one" to an "eight" in part (b) of the definition of "firearm" in section one of the act and that's all it'd take. One word. (Technically, the limit is 7.5J in most other EU states, but "seven point five" is three times more work than "eight" ).

So it's just a case of the Minister not wanting to do it. And that's the entire reason.

guns4fun

Great to see so much interest in the topic,I thought there would not be too many replies.
I do know that the FCP during their talks on the new firearms licencing system did try to get airguns downgraded from firearms but the doj just wanted nothing to do with it.
I will be putting my views to my local opposition tds in the hope that they might see some common sense,and after all the opposition will form the next government in some sort of shape or form which exclude ff and the greens.
I would urge all here and beyond to do the same.
Just on the topic of airguns in the uk,,I was there lately and went into another shop who sell all kinds of airguns.
I was like a child in a sweetshop,spring powered guns co2 precharged etc all with no licence.
Felt sick coming away from there knowing that I could not make a purchase but worth a visit for accessories and spares.
ok we have a huge choice of airsoft guns here but they are not the same.