AIRGUNS YOUR VIEWS ON THEM.

kildare.17hmr

I agree with landkeeper some sort of simple system would be much better and get young people into the sport. simple fact is that if some little muppet wants 1 to break windows of shoot the neighbours cat he'll get 1 if its legal r not but the way it is now its 2 expensive for young people to get involved! im 25 and was always into shooting so i joined the FCA and was on shooting team for years and only now can i afford to own a rifle myself. would have had an air rifle long ago and used it propperly if things had of been different

tac foley

ivanthehunter wrote: »

If you filthy rich you can go buy any amount of original BP muzzle loading rifles at 10-15K a pop with out licence. But if you want a skillfully crafted working reproduction then its licence time plus 2-3k???..

Sir - a slight thread drift, if you will. The whole point about Black powder shooting firearms is that they are substantially CHEAPER than modern high-grade steel nitro-propellant firearms. With very few exceptions, a high-grade replica Colt from Uberti or Pietta will cost less than a third the price of ANY Smith & Wesson revolver made, let alone a semi-auto full bore pistol. Second-hand BP handguns are almost ludicrously easy on the pocket - there are a few in my local gun-store for less than £100.

Rifles and muskets, depending on what era interests you, are again substantially cheaper, even when brand new, than 90% of most modern centre-fire rifles.

True, the upper level of cartridge-shooting target rifles, like the Sharps and Remington rolling block, can be comparatively pricey - but all I see on THIS forum is a large number of shooters with eu2000 rifles topped with eu1000 scopes, shooting expensive ammunition. I can shoot my .451 Whitworth rifle replica for about 10c a shot - out to 1200 yards...............any of my BP handguns can be shot for literally all day for less than an old punt.

Come over here and I'll be happy to show you how cheap BP shooting CAN be.

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Rovi

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - a slight thread drift, if you will. The whole point about Black powder shooting firearms is that they are substantially CHEAPER than modern high-grade steel nitro-propellant firearms. With very few exceptions, a high-grade replica Colt from Uberti or Pietta will cost less than a third the price of ANY Smith & Wesson revolver made, let alone a semi-auto full bore pistol. Second-hand BP handguns are almost ludicrously easy on the pocket - there are a few in my local gun-store for less than £100.

Rifles and muskets, depending on what era interests you, are again substantially cheaper, even when brand new, than 90% of most modern centre-fire rifles.

True, the upper level of cartridge-shooting target rifles, like the Sharps and Remington rolling block, can be comparatively pricey - but all I see on THIS forum is a large number of shooters with eu2000 rifles topped with eu1000 scopes, shooting expensive ammunition. I can shoot my .451 Whitworth rifle replica for about 10c a shot - out to 1200 yards...............any of my BP handguns can be shot for literally all day for less than an old punt.

Come over here and I'll be happy to show you how cheap BP shooting CAN be.

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The problem here Tac, is that unless the BP firearm is a genuine antique, it falls under exactly the same laws as modern cartridge firearms, to say nothing of the practical impossibility of legally getting hold of the Black Powder or even a modern substitute.

ivanthehunter

Rovi wrote: »

The problem here Tac, is that unless the BP firearm is a genuine antique, it falls under exactly the same laws as modern cartridge firearms,

It seems that the ownership of such originals is outside the grasp of the average individual due mainly to the high prices of these rare items and so the take up on these originals is natural slow..

However it seems that somehow a lower priced exact reproduction is an item to be licenced. even though it presents the same hazards as the original.

I fail to see how this is even allowed in our modern society. It smacks of one law for the rich and another for the poor..

Are working guns not controlled enough in this nanny state!!

Would love to have a Sharps but cant justify the cost of even a reproduction anytime soon:(

tac foley

ivanthehunter wrote: »

However it seems that somehow a lower priced exact reproduction is an item to be licenced. even though it presents the same hazards as the original.

Sir, you mean, I hope, that its improper use can be equally lethal.

It is a matter of extreme irony that here in UK I can possess a genuine American Civil War Model 1861 Springfield musket without any form of licencing whatsoever, but as you say, a replica has to be licensed exactly the same as a .50cal MacMillan or AI.

Sadly the same rules pertain to the Sharps rifle/carbine - as the 45-70 ammunition used for most of them is still available - AND the Trapdoor Springfield. But NOT the Snider..nobody, it seems is making .557 Boxer ammunition these days.

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ivanthehunter

Yes
The same hazards..

Even if you choose to make one- as thousands do worldwide each year, you'd find yourself at odds with the law and have to splash out a 1000euro for a firearms dealers licence IIRC

The genuine enthusiast finds obstacles at every turn.. and not all are logical, fair or proportionally adjusted to suit..

Its like the medieval reenactment issue of building mock weapons with low energy's and soft projectiles- as such they cant legally build some of them with out a RFD's licence again..
Surely these people should be given an exception immediately but really the whole firearms issue needs redress.

firefly08

You cant ignore the fact that some plick will buy an air rifle etc and act the maggot with it etc etc shooting cats, dogs and even cars as has happened in the UK.

because there will be ass___es who will shoot you dog or break your windows,or injure you child

This attitude is everything that's wrong with the firearms/licensing situation in this country, IMO. Not to pick on you guys in particular, of course - these quotes are just 2 examples of the kind of response I see all the time here.

It seems to suggest that when people are ignoring the laws, the solution is...more laws. Do you realize that even if all firearms were unlicensed, shooting people, and people's pets and property would still be illegal?

Although this may not be the intent of people who hold that opinion, you really are basically saying that people can do what they like and are not responsible for their own actions. If someone shoots you, then the government has failed you by not stopping that person from owning a gun. Bull****.

My opinion on the original question is: completely de-regulate air rifles for every adult with no record of violent crime - but start holding people responsible when they hurt other people, regardless of what tool they use.

daveob007

I can see where you are coming from but the fact is that we shooters get the stick if just 1 idiot acts the maggot
99% of us would not misuse airguns if they were licence free but it just takes one to damage the sport.
a simple letter of permission from your super should be enough to allow ownership and not our draconian system.
If someone has criminal intent to cause injury or damage they will do it without an airgun anyway but we need some basic control for our sakes so the chances of abuse are minimal,they media would have a field day if your neighbours cat gets a pellet in the ass,or worse a child.
Airgunning is a great sport and good way to get started in shooting or even continue in airgun sports and its an awful pity we cannot enjoy it like our neighbours in the uk/france/spain etc etc

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

a simple letter of permission from your super should be enough to allow ownership and not our draconian system.

If the super's willing to give that letter, 99.999% of the time they'd give a licence as well, so it's not exactly a great advance.

Besides, airsoft is still going strong, and someone shot a female garda in the face with an airsoft in the first month that they became legal to buy here.
They didn't ban airsoft, they just arrested the little thug that did it.
And a few years back when some thug was shooting people on pearse street with a hunting air rifle, they didn't ban air rifles, they arrested the thug who was doing it (and he didn't have a licence either btw).

Point being, paperwork isn't as effective as enforcing existing law. (It does, however, require you to pay for gardai...)

Airgunning is a great sport and good way to get started in shooting or even continue in airgun sports and its an awful pity we cannot enjoy it like our neighbours in the uk/france/spain etc etc

I seem to recall that the UK, France and Spain all have far more serious problems with "troubled youths" - the UK has had to invent an entirely new sanction for them (ASBOs). If they can do it, so can we. It's therefore not a case of there being some legislative or mechanical or technical or social reason against it; it's just a political one. Change a "one" to an "eight" in part (b) of the definition of "firearm" in section one of the act and that's all it'd take. One word. (Technically, the limit is 7.5J in most other EU states, but "seven point five" is three times more work than "eight" ).

So it's just a case of the Minister not wanting to do it. And that's the entire reason.

guns4fun

Great to see so much interest in the topic,I thought there would not be too many replies.
I do know that the FCP during their talks on the new firearms licencing system did try to get airguns downgraded from firearms but the doj just wanted nothing to do with it.
I will be putting my views to my local opposition tds in the hope that they might see some common sense,and after all the opposition will form the next government in some sort of shape or form which exclude ff and the greens.
I would urge all here and beyond to do the same.
Just on the topic of airguns in the uk,,I was there lately and went into another shop who sell all kinds of airguns.
I was like a child in a sweetshop,spring powered guns co2 precharged etc all with no licence.
Felt sick coming away from there knowing that I could not make a purchase but worth a visit for accessories and spares.
ok we have a huge choice of airsoft guns here but they are not the same.

Sparks

guns4fun wrote: »

I do know that the FCP during their talks on the new firearms licencing system did try to get airguns downgraded from firearms but the doj just wanted nothing to do with it.

Actually, no, that's not what happened.
From our report on the first FCP Conference, during a workshop on the second day:

The idea of raising the muzzle energy threshold for airguns from the current 1 joule to the 12 ft-lb level of the UK or the 7-joule level of the German system was brought up, and again wasn't shot down - there's no perceived problem with things like paintball (and I made the point that paintball markers have twice the muzzle energy of an air rifle so if they're okay, we should be too, and I pointed out the problems of bringing in air rifles for competitions). However, while this is a possible thing that may happen (in, say, the Misc.Provisions Bill) it needs to be discussed at FCP level first. Des Crofton made the point that while this is definitely something we should be looking to do, practical limits on people may lead to the FCP having short-term, medium-term and long-term goals, and this may not make it to the short-term list.

daveob007

does this mean that there might be a glimmer of hope sometime in the future????

Sparks

I choose to believe so.