Edinburgh 2010: a backwards marathon training log

aero2k

After a marathon, many of us find ourselves doing simple things, such as walking down stairs, backwards. I have found it convenient, having run Edinburgh on May 23rd, to write a retrospective training log. I've tried to include all the stuff people might ask about, while keeping it reasonably brief. As I've got so much help and inspiration from reading many of the logs here, I'm posting it here - I'll probably stick it in the sub-3 thread as well.

You'll find it here; all feedback welcome.

tisnotover

Thanks for posting the log, always good to see other people's training logs and it was your one from DCM '09 that gave me the proper motivation to go for Cork this year !

Looks like we're at very similar paces, based on your 10k times and tempo run paces. Mixing the tempo intervals with PMP runs is a good thing I reckon. Also good to see the progression in your tempo pace from 6:15min/mile to 6:10min/mile.

One comment I'd have is that maybe your interval work could be done at a faster pace, what do you think ?
And the other would be on PMP, if I was going again i'd def try and get in a longer PMP run of 13miles straight?

Your def well suited to the longer races...maybe you should do the Ultra

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

..maybe you should do the Ultra

That's fightin' talk - last time I'll give a Corkman a shout!

You're definitely right about the PMP miles. When I signed up for Edinburgh I had a goal of 2:55, so I decided to do similar training as per DCM '09 but with a PMP pace of 6:40. When I had done a few runs, and also raced the kilomathon on March 14th, I realised I could go a bit faster. I think more PMP miles would have lessened the slowdown over the last few miles too; knowing I had done them would have been a psychological boost.

As for the intervals, I think you're a bit quicker than me over the shorter distances, and I notice you like the short sessions, but I really struggled over the shorter, faster intervals, anything around or under 6 min/mile was really hard, and it was only when I started doing longer stuff that 6:10 per mile felt okay. That became my new HMP, prior to DCM '09 HMP was 6:30.

4 days before Edinburgh I did 2 x 1 mile, at around 5:45 and 5:51, and they were the two fastest miles I've ever run in training, also faster than any of my current PB race paces, so I'm hoping when I get back into proper training I'll be able to take it up to a slightly higher level.

RacoonQueen

tisnotover wrote: »

Your def well suited to the longer races...maybe you should do the Ultra

He is, next year. :pac:

tisnotover

aero2k wrote: »

That's fightin' talk - last time I'll give a Corkman a shout!

You're definitely right about the PMP miles. When I signed up for Edinburgh I had a goal of 2:55, so I decided to do similar training as per DCM '09 but with a PMP pace of 6:40. When I had done a few runs, and also raced the kilomathon on March 14th, I realised I could go a bit faster. I think more PMP miles would have lessened the slowdown over the last few miles too; knowing I had done them would have been a psychological boost.

As for the intervals, I think you're a bit quicker than me over the shorter distances, and I notice you like the short sessions, but I really struggled over the shorter, faster intervals, anything around or under 6 min/mile was really hard, and it was only when I started doing longer stuff that 6:10 per mile felt okay. That became my new HMP, prior to DCM '09 HMP was 6:30.

4 days before Edinburgh I did 2 x 1 mile, at around 5:45 and 5:51, and they were the two fastest miles I've ever run in training, also faster than any of my current PB race paces, so I'm hoping when I get back into proper training I'll be able to take it up to a slightly higher level.

You'll have to come out to the 25mile mark next time

Its interesting to see the approaches like. Running intervals at 6min/mile is fine like and does work for you, but you've seen the progression on that now as well with the 2*1mile that ya ran 4days before Edinburgh.

I suppose a goal could be to get the tempo pace down to 6:00min/mile maybe before your next marathon ?

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

I suppose a goal could be to get the tempo pace down to 6:00min/mile maybe before your next marathon ?

I've loads of ideas going round in my head, mainly about avoiding ultras...

I've sort of decided there's no point in doing another marathon unles I can do a 10 in under 60 ( the Frank Duffy in the Phoenix Park in August is a bit hilly so maybe I can say 60:30). That would mean making my 10k pace from the Great Ireland Run on 18th April last another 3.8 miles, or 23 minutes. A bit scary now, but not an outlandish goal.

littlebug

Just for a second (I swear) I thought you'd got fed up with this old fashioned running forwards business........

gol eht htiw kcul dooG

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

He is, next year. :pac:

See how I thanked every post except this:p

In all seriousness, I'd love to do one. Maybe for my 50th? I have a feeling that running for more than 3 hours would be a problem, mentally as well as physically.

There are so many things I'd love to do, like this, or even this - it's hard to find time, and energy. (not to mention money...)

Think I'll sign up for the Raheny 5k on the 20th!:D

tisnotover

aero2k wrote: »

I've loads of ideas going round in my head, mainly about avoiding ultras...

I've sort of decided there's no point in doing another marathon unles I can do a 10 in under 60 ( the Frank Duffy in the Phoenix Park in August is a bit hilly so maybe I can say 60:30). That would mean making my 10k pace from the Great Ireland Run on 18th April last another 3.8 miles, or 23 minutes. A bit scary now, but not an outlandish goal.

But its great to give yourself that goal. Its like what Gringo said on the sub-3 thread about getting to your goal(e.g. <60, 10miles) before commencing a new marathon training programme. Its not that outlandish. Youre already at 6:10 tempo pace !

Abhainn

Good man aero2K. Don't worry about the hills on that 10 miler. Should be no bother to you
Try also the book "Survival Of the Fittest " by Mike Shroud.

Will be reading your log with interest

aero2k

Abhainn wrote: »

Good man aero2K. Don't worry about the hills on that 10 miler. Should be no bother to you
Try also the book "Survival Of the Fittest " by Mike Shroud.

Will be reading your log with interest

Thanks Abhainn,

I actually like that course - I train on parts of it at least once a week - I was just a bit disappointed with the time last year. Looking back I was purely focused on marathon training, so it actually wasn't a bad run. Like yourself, I think it's just that the bar has been raised a bit...

Funnily enough I think if those hills were in a marathon I wouldn't regard them as hard, but in a 10 mile, or worse a 10k, they're awful. It's all about the pace I suppose.

I'll certainly have a look at that book.

I'll probably just add to the log whenever I race, and try to figure out what gives me the most benefit in terms of preparation.

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

I've sort of decided there's no point in doing another marathon unles I can do a 10 in under 60 ( the Frank Duffy in the Phoenix Park in August is a bit hilly so maybe I can say 60:30). That would mean making my 10k pace from the Great Ireland Run on 18th April last another 3.8 miles, or 23 minutes. A bit scary now, but not an outlandish goal.

Don't sell yourself short....I've looked through your edinburgh training and you have no tempo running at LT pace hence the 60min 10 miler is going to seem daunting just like a marathon would seem dautning if you'd no long runs.

The don't sell yourself short bit...no reason why you don't have a sub 60 10 miler in you. 6 mile tempos, starting this week at 6:15 pace and knock off 1 or 2 seconds each week >10 weeks to the frank duffy...no bother to you. I love the 6 mile tempos in a sadistic type of way...they never get easy, because you up the pace all the time. but they get you tremendous stamina that stands to you during the race. And I love 10 mile races, pure racing on the limit, pacy running where you empty the tank entirely over the course of an hour.

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

..you have no tempo running at LT pace..

Yeah, that's a gap alright. I was tempted to try and insert a tempo run on Thursdays between my Tues intervals and Sat long run, but I felt I was better off with the rest.
Do you think I'd be better starting with a full 6 miles @6:15 or something like 3x2?

Gringo78 wrote: »

...no reason why you don't have a sub 60 10 miler in you..

I'm inclined to agree, it's just that getting it out might be a challenge!

Gringo78 wrote: »

And I love 10 mile races, pure racing on the limit, pacy running where you empty the tank entirely over the course of an hour.

In my cycling days I did a few 25 mile time trials, all about 12 bpm over LT heart rate, tough but very satisfying. I find running flat out more difficult.

Thanks for the input. I was going to go over to your log and ask a few questions - I was very impressed to see what you achieved over the last few months on relatively little mileage. Now that you're here maybe you can help with the following:

I'm thinking of training by HR rather than pace. What kind of HRM do you use, how did you determine your LT HR, and where can I find out more about HRR (Daniels??)

Thanks!

aero2k

Okay, I originally intended this to be a single post log, with perhaps a few questions or comments. Then I began to think that maybe I'd use it for race reports, and give a little retrospective training log for each one, like I did for Edinburgh. All the training would be on one page, and we'd have the finish time to judge how successful it was. However, I feel it's beginning to spread beyond that, and here's why.

Keen followers of my posts (I know that's plural, I'm trying to make this a positive thinking log) will have read about my efforts to resist the siren calls of RQ and HM, not to mention tisnotover, who would have lured me to my destruction on the rocks of an ultramarathon. In veering one way to excape their clutches, I ended up falling under the influence of the evil Gringo78, and that is why, despite struggling to manage a sub 8 min mile for the past three weeks, I found myself lacing up my Hyperspeeds (my lightest shoes) this morning, and heading to the park for my first proper tempo run.

4 miles warm-up: 8:31, 7:35, 7:38, 7:15, followed by 6 @ 6:15 - actual splits: 6.13, 6.15, 6.14, 6.12, 6.13, 6.12. and a warmdown of .74 miles. (I'd have done more but I was passing close to home at that point.)
Probably my best ever training session - I had started out wondering if I'd even manage the pace for the first mile, then thinking "I'll try to hang on for another couple" before finally having to ease up on the last rep as I was at 6:07 halfway through. Breathing was hard but relatively comfortable, and the legs weren't (too) wobbly.

Plan now is another one of these midweek, a race next Sunday, and the Dunshaughlin 10k on Sat 26th.

Gringo78, thanks for the suggestion - any chance of you coming on here to post along the lines of "aero, how about running 2:45 for DCM '10?:D

aero2k

aero2k wrote: »

Probably my best ever training session

I've just realised today marks 365 consecutive days running.....

tunguska

I dont believed you cracked and started a log aero!! Youre betraying the non-log brigade no end I tell ye.
Whats the story, is it Raheny next sunday? Ive been eyeing up my hyperspeeds lately aswell, even though the last outing ended in disaster. I still think I could be making a long outing in them, sometime in october perhaps............

tisnotover

great running there aero, quality training !!

delighted your dipping into the training logs too !

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

I'm thinking of training by HR rather than pace. What kind of HRM do you use, how did you determine your LT HR, and where can I find out more about HRR (Daniels??)

I have a spreadsheet which I'll dig out and attach in a few days...calculates the daniels HR's for you. Its just a rough guide really, after looking at your HR data for a few tempos's and races you'll know yourself what are the correct ones.

I use the HR strap for the forerunner 305...its basic really, takes 1 or 2 miles before you start to get reasonably accurate readings but I have a field set up avg lap HR which is what I use...helps run the tempos a little more accurately pace wise especially on windy days or on uphills...this pace adjustment by HR would stand to you in undulating races.

aero2k wrote: »

Gringo78, thanks for the suggestion - any chance of you coming on here to post along the lines of "aero, how about running 2:45 for DCM '10?:D

maybe not, you might actually benefit more from concentrating on 10 mile PB in frank duffy and then starting a half program targeting waterford ac HM in december....you could hit a 1:17:xx there by skipping dublin marathon and you'd then be in very good shape to hit the endurance training for a spring marathon at least 2:45 and maybe even <2:40.

Do Dublin, and you may miss the 2:45 target, and then you'll soldier on a scrape it in a spring marathon...maybe...now wouldn't 2:39:xx be so much better?

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

I dont believed you cracked and started a log aero!! Youre betraying the non-log brigade no end I tell ye.
Whats the story, is it Raheny next sunday? Ive been eyeing up my hyperspeeds lately aswell, even though the last outing ended in disaster. I still think I could be making a long outing in them, sometime in october perhaps............

Hi tunguska,

Sorry for the sellout. I reckon I'll be ok as long as I don't mention.....

Undecided about Raheny yet - I might go to Kilcoole for the 5 mile with a mate.

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

I have a spreadsheet which I'll dig out and attach in a few days...calculates the daniels HR's for you. ?

Cheers, no rush as I'm trying to fix my HRM at the moment.

Gringo78 wrote: »

I use the HR strap for the forerunner 305...its basic really, takes 1 or 2 miles before you start to get reasonably accurate readings but I have a field set up avg lap HR which is what I use

I have the same one and it has never seemed as good as my old Polar. I'll try that average lap HR field, it's bound to have less spikes.

Gringo78 wrote: »

maybe not, you might actually benefit more from concentrating on 10 mile PB in frank duffy and then starting a half program targeting waterford ac HM in december....you could hit a 1:17:xx there by skipping dublin marathon and you'd then be in very good shape to hit the endurance training for a spring marathon at least 2:45 and maybe even <2:40.

Do Dublin, and you may miss the 2:45 target, and then you'll soldier on a scrape it in a spring marathon...maybe...now wouldn't 2:39:xx be so much better?

This all sounds very appealing. Much as I love Dublin, I think it's going to come round too quick. I think my VO2 max is okay, but LT as a % of VO2 max is a bit low, as is LT pace. (I've no evidence to substantiate this other than gut feeling - haven't done a test since 2001).

Many thanks for all the feedback, I'll take it all on board.

Git101

I stayed away from reading training logs as I thought the potential for my head to go into meltdown with all the information was too great.

I did go looking for a certain posters log on your recommendation and how surprised was I to discover that aero2k had started a log of his own.

Fair play to you, your log makes interesting reading and I suspect may inspire me to train smarter in the future.

misty floyd

Deadly stuff Aero, this is really useful. See you at the race series and then DCM. You know you'll do DCM All the best.

aero2k

misty floyd wrote: »

You know you'll do DCM

Cheers, Misty,

No way I'm doing DCM '10.

Of course, I told Git101 "no way am I writing a log":D

However, it is an unconventional log. I'll post up some musings from time to time, and a backwards look at training. If I tried to follow other peoples' formats, most of my posts would be along the lines of "did 4 (or 8) today. Felt slow and tired, but really enjoyed being in the park."
Now that might be good for my mental health, but not for motivating me, or anyone else, to go fast.

An update:

I went a bit mad on Monday (no RQ, HM, tno, oh, and you too xebec, not mad enough to do an ultra) and ordered 7 running books online. It would have been 8 but the Mike Stroud book mentioned by Abhainn was out of stock - I'll look for it in the library.

Time to start taking this running thing seriously.:)

aero2k

So, a couple of brief race reports. I signed up for the Dunshaughlin 10k a few weeks before heading off for Edinburgh - I figured it would give me a target to make sure I didn't fall by the wayside if I did a very good - or very bad - marathon. Then I heard about the Tommy Lynam 5k in Raheny last Sunday. Ok, it was a bit sooner than I'd planned to return to racing, but I reckoned "how much harm can I do in 5k?!".

Raheny 5k

Nice course on closed roads within the beautiful St Annes Park.
A hectic start, then settled in for splits of 5.40, 5.55, 5.52 and finishing in a PB of 17:53. I felt I was dying for the second half, but the splits show otherwise (it was a 2 lap course). The course may have been a little short....

Dunshaughlin 10k.

I felt really tired all week leading up to this. In each of the previous weeks I'd done a tempo run of 6@ 6:12, but I wasn't able for it this week so just did 3 x 1m @ 6:10 on Thursday, and a short run with some strides on Friday.
The plan was to go for 36:30, and to start of at 36:00 pace and hold it for as long as possible. I had a good warm-up and settled into a good rhythm soon after the start - I had to ease a bit from the 5:35 pace I was dragged along at. There was a teeny bit of weaving needed but by the time I hit the 1k marker, I had a nice clear run all the way. Halfway came round in 18:11, a little slower than I wanted but not too bad. I noticed Patricia-unprouncable-surname from Raheny ahead so I caught and passed her, and went in pursuit of the guy in front of her. I passed him on the hill in mile 5, only for him to blaze by me in the last 200. That 5th mile was a killer, and my attempt at having a drink around midway didn't help either, I reckon it cost me 5-10 secs (my mouth was very dry and I thought I'd be able to rinse it and spit out - epic fail!).
Splits were 5:49, 5.49, 5.59, 5.55, 6.11, 5.55 and an average of 5.56 per mile for the last .2, to finish in 36:53 by my watch. I felt like my legs were falling off for the last mile or so, so I was pleased to see that the splits show I matched my race average (5:56) for this section.
Average HR 180 - also good as I did 6:12 per mile in the Adidas half last year, with an average HR of 184.
I'm hoping I can go sub 36 on a good course if I do some VO2 max training - to date my only real VO2 max stuff has been a couple of 5 k races, almost one year apart.
I'm still wading through the books - planning to award myself an honorary doctorate over the next week or so.:)

The bad thing about running a PB last night, despite a poor week leading up to it, is it makes me wonder about what might have been in Edinburgh if I'd been a little bit more aggressive between miles 5 and 10. I think I let a sub 2:50 get away.....

Git101

Great running aero, well done

aero2k wrote: »

The bad thing about running a PB last night, despite a poor week leading up to it, is it makes me wonder about what might have been in Edinburgh if I'd been a little bit more aggressive between miles 5 and 10. I think I let a sub 2:50 get away.....

What happened to the "positive thinking log"
Not to put it too bluntly but get over it and look to future races

RacoonQueen

Well done last night. Shame I missed out I opted for a very slow 7ish miler instead.

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Well done last night. Shame I missed out I opted for a very slow 7ish miler instead.

Thanks RQ. You could have done that run with 520 others!
I just realised that in my pre-race focused state it never occured to me that I could have collected your number and mini-dresslarge t-shirt for you, not to mention the factor 30 suncream!
Was it hot enough for you in Eniscorthy?:D

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

What happened to the "positive thinking log"
Not to put it too bluntly but get over it and look to future races

Don't worry Git, it's all positive here.

I was at that Ronnie Delany talk in City Hall a few weeks back, and one of his (many) remarks that made an impression was "you learn more from your defeats than your victories". (I have to substitute good and not-so good performances here, as I'm unlikely to win anything).

I'm looking back at Edinburgh fairly dispassionately; I allowed fear of the unknown (i.e. how hot would it get and what affect would that heat have on me) to inhibit my running in the early stages of the race when it was critical to set down the pace for later. I didn't have a well defined goal.

Two mistakes I won't make again - that's progress.

RacoonQueen

aero2k wrote: »

Was it hot enough for you in Eniscorthy?:D

The weather was teasing me. It was lashing rain 20 minutes before the start, cue my happy face, then the sun came out... :rolleyes:

Krusty_Clown

Great running, and a pity we didn't get a chance to say hello. How did Tunguska get on (seeing as he doesn't have a log of his own!).

tisnotover

Great going aero, well done !
That tempo pace is very strong, any plans to do a half anytime soon ?