Edinburgh 2010: a backwards marathon training log

Git101

aero2k wrote: »

Don't worry Git, it's all positive here.

I was at that Ronnie Delany talk in City Hall a few weeks back, and one of his (many) remarks that made an impression was "you learn more from your defeats than your victories". (I have to substitute good and not-so good performances here, as I'm unlikely to win anything).

I'm looking back at Edinburgh fairly dispassionately; I allowed fear of the unknown (i.e. how hot would it get and what affect would that heat have on me) to inhibit my running in the early stages of the race when it was critical to set down the pace for later. I didn't have a well defined goal.

Two mistakes I won't make again - that's progress.

Glad to hear that...
Always good to learn from mistakes ... because I make more mistakes than most I do it all the time
Just worried that you were getting bogged down in the "what might have been" syndrome.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Great running, and a pity we didn't get a chance to say hello. How did Tunguska get on (seeing as he doesn't have a log of his own!).

Thanks Krusty, I'm just glad I wasn't in your shoes!:D I don't know how you managed to speed up towards the end...
tunguska did 34:17, about 90 secs faster than his (already very impressive) Great Ireland run time. Just between you and me, I saw him having a sneaky gel before the start;)

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

Great going aero, well done !
That tempo pace is very strong, any plans to do a half anytime soon ?

Thanks tno, I need to learn to push a bit harder in the middle third of the race when I felt (relatively) okay.
I've signed up for the Adidas series - 5m on 17th July, 10m 5 weeks later, and 1/2 5 weeks after that. I haven't even done out a proper program yet, but it will have more tempo running, and a bit of VO2 max stuff. I might throw in the odd 2 mile or 5k race instead of a training session if it makes sense.
I'd also like to do the Liberties run (6.5k), I think it's the week after the 5m. I grew up near the route, plus it's a guaranteed PB!
You did well in your race too, good going only 3 weeks after your heroics in Cork!

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

Just worried that you were getting bogged down in the "what might have been" syndrome.

Well, it's hard to avoid that completely, but on the other hand it's a shame to waste a good mistake, especially when it's fairly easy to analyse.
Last night's race was similar conditions to Edinburgh, on a much tougher course, without the "free" 40-60 secs from the downhill start, and one online predictor gives an average marathon time of 2:49:37 over 3 different formulas using last night's 10k time. Given that I trained specifically for the marathon and not for the 10k, I'm inclined to believe the calculators. Definitely an opportunity missed.
Funny, when things go to plan it's often more difficult to figure out why.

DCM '08 was also a wasted opportunity, though in that case I did the best I could on the day, and I had got the training wrong. Thinking about "what might have been" motivated me to put that right next time.

tunguska

aero2k wrote: »

Thanks Krusty, I'm just glad I wasn't in your shoes!:D I don't know how you managed to speed up towards the end...
tunguska did 34:17, about 90 secs faster than his (already very impressive) Great Ireland run time. Just between you and me, I saw him having a sneaky gel before the start;)

These are outlandish allegations and my legal department will be in touch........

Great run on saturday Sean, you and Krusty must've been neck and neck. I'll do a little log hijacking here if you dont mind. Thought this was a great race. Not an easy course at all. Good support out on the roads, a real sense of community about the whole thing which is brilliant. Definitely will be back next year.

Anyway you're steadily making ground at every race and Im sure that 2:45 isnt far away. Whats the target for addidas 5miler?

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

Anyway you're steadily making ground at every race and Im sure that 2:45 isnt far away. Whats the target for addidas 5miler?

Thanks, there's a lot of hard work between here and 2:45, but we'll see.

It's hard to say what the target is for the 5-miler. I did 31:30 last year (31:18 without the stop to tie my lace!) and 29:25 in Jan '10 in the Raheny 5, though that's a much easier course. Coming off marathon training and just getting back into a proper routine, 29:30 wouldn't be too bad, but I'm tempted to give 29:00 a bash...

Gringo78

Gringo78 wrote: »

I have a spreadsheet which I'll dig out and attach in a few days...calculates the daniels HR's for you. Its just a rough guide really, after looking at your HR data for a few tempos's and races you'll know yourself what are the correct ones.

Sorry, away on holidays etc so a little late but eventually as promised. Found this excel program on the net someplace so not sure of everything it does but I found the HR's to be close enough to what I've recorded in races. As you get faster, the formulas adjust to have you running at a higher intensity. Just fill in resting HR, MHR, weight, age and a recent race time.

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

Average HR 180 - also good as I did 6:12 per mile in the Adidas half last year, with an average HR of 184.

Did you run the addidas HM even paced at an avg HR of 184? or did you fall dramatically off the pace in the last few miles? Just seems funny to me that you could maintain such a high HR for the HM but not maintain as high in the 10k?? e.g my HR's are say 168 for HM / 171 for 10 miles / 176 for 10km. What was your avg HR for the Raheny 5k?

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

Did you run the addidas HM even paced at an avg HR of 184? or did you fall dramatically off the pace in the last few miles? Just seems funny to me that you could maintain such a high HR for the HM but not maintain as high in the 10k?? e.g my HR's are say 168 for HM / 171 for 10 miles / 176 for 10km. What was your avg HR for the Raheny 5k?

As always Gringo, you're on the ball. I meant the Adidas 5m. (I wouldn't have done it even paced as it's very hilly.) I averaged 180 for the half, at ave. 6:30 per mile, though there were some spikes in there that might have thrown off the calculation. (The flip side of that coin is that there are some hard hills at the end where I definitely slowed down, and my HR dropped to about 175 - at that stage I knew I was going to make my target time and I'd been ill in the weeks leading up to it, so I saved a little for the big day to come) My ave HR for the last section of the 10k was 185, which was the highest of the race. It was only 5 weeks since Edinburgh and I was feeling a bit tired for the week coming up to it - I wouldn't have bet anything on doing that time when I was driving out to it, though I had a faster target.
My HRM died in the lead-up to Edinburgh and I didn't get organised to get a replacement until recently - it arrived on the day of the 10k, so no info for Raheny, which would have been interesting, or Edinburgh, which would have made a good comparison with DCM '09.
Thanks for the spreadsheet, it'll be a hard taskmaster....

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

Just seems funny to me that you could maintain such a high HR for the HM but not maintain as high in the 10k??

Subjectively, 5:48ish pace felt as comfortable at the start of the 10k as 6:10-6:15 felt in the HM. The breathing was surprisingly comfortable throughout, it was just the legs that went a bit wobbly near the end.

As you correctly prescribed, more tempo running needed.

In 2000/2001 I had a series of VO2 max tests where my LT was identified variously as 169-184 bpm, and max HR approx 200. I'm not sure if I've lost a few beats since - the highest reading I've seen from the Garmin that I trust is 195. (working from memory)

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

I went a bit mad on Monday and ordered 7 running books online. It would have been 8 but the Mike Stroud book mentioned by Abhainn was out of stock - I'll look for it in the library.

What are your thoughts on the books you bought? Its time I bought a few and am looking for some recommendations.

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

What are your thoughts on the books you bought? Its time I bought a few and am looking for some recommendations.

I had great intentions of doing detailed reviews here, but there's such a lot of reading I don't feel it would be fair at this stage. However, let me give some first impressions. Just some general remarks though: Firstly, I think it's very hard to avoid some bias - if you find a book that recommends a similar training approach to what you've been following, then you're automatically well disposed towards it. Secondly, you seem to be very scientific about things, and I personally love stuff that is evidence based and can be experimentally proven; however I think it's best to maintain a healthy air of scepticism when reading any running books. It appears that most experimental studies involve groups where it's hard to have an adequate control group, and it's more or less impossible to have a double blind experiment - except maybe with energy drinks, but still, how would you prove someone hadn't done a sneaky bit of training, or was ill, etc.

Anyway:

The Complete Guide to Sports Nutrition by Anita Bean, and Food for Fitness by the same author. €13.14 & €10.57 respectively

Both very well laid out, easy to read, good info on calculating required calorie intake, and amounts of protein / carbs/ fats required. Very good on supplements. Lots of tasty snack recipes - I bought them for this reason as I'm trying to cut down on refined sugar...
Good hints and tips on preparing for particular events.

Lore of Running 4th Edition by Tim Noakes €17.42

This is a huge (950 pages, smallish print) and very comprehensive book. It is laid out in such a way that you can go to the section that most interests you - you don't need to start at page 1 and work forward. There are several articles looking at some of the top athletes and their training schedules - I found that really interesting. The author doesn't include his own training programs but reviews those from others.
One thing that comes across is that the author is really curious, and he has even questioned his own previous writings to the extent that he now gives the brain a much more important role in training and performance.
It is a bit like a college textbook with the level of detail, but none the worse for that.

I wish I'd read the chapter on the effects of temperature before running Edinburgh!

This is a great book, but probably no good on its own.

Daniels Running Formula.

An excellent book, with programs from 800m to marathon. He also gives a thorough explanation of how to structure your own program depending on goals. Noakes would dispute some of the science, especially around aerobic threshold etc, but he does admit the training methods work. There's also some conflict on the topic of hydration. I like the way his marathon programs give two quality workouts per week to be arranged to suit your own schedule.
I also like the athlete profiles.

Advanced Marathoning and Road Racing for Serious runners by Pfitzinger and Douglas, €13.08 each.

I've had a look through both, the first a bit more thoroughly than the second. Both easy to read, again some profiles of runners included. Less detail in terms of pace tables than Daniels, but the training programs are quite prescriptive: Monday do x, Tuesday do y etc. I suppose it's nice to read something written by someone who has performed at the highest level.
The books are similar, but the second one deals with a range of events including XC.

I'd slightly favour Daniels over P&D, but that might be bias on my part.

Brain Training for Runners by Matt Fitzgerald.

This is a really interesting book. It outlines the idea that rather than lactic acid overload, glycogen depletion, cardiovascular limitation etc, the brain / body has some sort of central governor that acts to prevent damage through overexertion. I haven't tried any of the exercises yet. I'm a bit hesitant to give the time to something unproven, but it is something in the back of my mind.

The prices I've quoted are what I paid on Amazon.co.uk, delivery was free. The total price of almost €90 is about the price of a pair of racing flats, and they won't wear out as quick!

aero2k

Ok, so maybe it was only 4.88, but I'm going by the Garmin for the distance (I'm happy to take the chip time as it's 2 sec quicker than the Garmin!)

I was a bit apprehensive about this. I've been training well the last few weeks, more aiming at 10 miles than 5, but I've been feeling a bit tired too, to the extent that I was contemplating a complete break for a week or two, and I'd probably have taken that break by now if I hadn't entered the race series.

I had an enjoyable 8 mile easy run on Thursday with 8 x 100m strides at the end, and I was pleased to ckeck the Garmin later and see that I'd gone a little quicker than usual for the strides. I did a very easy 3-and-a-bit yesterday and though the legs felt a bit sluggish I thought they'd come round by today. I had the usual pre-race night disturbed sleep, but tumbled out of bed at 6.30 without too much difficulty. The upper body was very tight, particularly the shoulders, due to some ambitious woodwork in recent days. I've been even more hungry than usual for the past two days, and I had to struggle not to stuff my face when this feeling persisted this morning. A big mug of tea, some toast, and a strool down to the shop for the paper. The body loosened up nicely after this and I wasn't conscious of any niggles.

A few mates arrived around 9am, then a quick jump into the gear and off for the warm-up. I couldn't seem to get going much quicker than 8 min/mile, however I felt fine and told myself it was probably down to the wind. I did a few strides and lined up near the front. I got chatting to a friend and this helped me relax a lot. I hoped to be able to keep up with her on the way round as I figured this would guarantee me a PB. Before I knew it the siren was going off and we were away.

The start was fine, over the timing mat in 3 secs, and other than being elbowed (unnecessarily I thought) a couple of times, after 200m or so I was running freely. At this stage I was still pretty close behind tunguska, so I reckoned that was a bit quick, as the 5.2x on the Garmin confirmed. I throttled back to around 5.35, about 10 seconds quicker than planned but I felt comfortable and we had a tailwind, so I decided to bank a few seconds.

I hit the mile marker around 5:15 so I knew it was short, but I didn't make the mental connection with my earlier observation that the start was a bit too far East. I decided to trust the Garmin and sure enough it beeped a short time later, 5:37 for mile 1. Off down the Khyber where I encountered some slight congestion - nothing serious but I had to weave gently. My friend from the start line was 150m ahead at this point, but I felt I was going fast enough so I didn't give chase. I got up the hill at Military road without too much of a struggle - I hid from the wind behind some big guys - apart from avoiding the guy who decided to stop on the right, and limp across to the left to stretch his calf on the kerb.

I covered mile 2 in 5:55 and got a bit of much needed support from the folk at the water station. Upper Glen Road didn't seem as hard as it sometimes is and mile 3 was a 6:01 effort.

Mile 4 is the hardest in this race for reasons I don't fully understand. Although the first part of it where the road meanders through the trees is slightly uphill, that in itself wouldn't explain the 6:24 pace my watch was showing. Looking across the bends ahead I spied my friend through the trees, and resolved to catch her. This helped a lot and by the time I got to the Ordinance Survey HQ and the 3.9 (:D) mile marker I was on 6:07 pace.

The breeze seemed to die down as we approached the turn onto Chesterfield Avenue, and I managed to get the legs going. I passed my friend around 800m to go, and managed to average 5:47 for that .9 miles. I was very happy with the time, 28:51 official, which translates to about 29:25 assuming I could have kept going for another 175m.

Great to see tunguska doing a cracking run, and great PBs from Git101 and RQ. Misty Floyd had a great return from injury to finish just outside 30.

Average 5:54 / mile, ave HR 179, max HR 189.

Shame about the distance.:mad:

Racman

Well done Aero2k. As I said after Edinburgh, you have faster times in you. Even though you were a long way ahead of me there, I was just under 28 minutes today. So, either your speed or my stamina can be improved - or both!

aero2k

Racman wrote: »

I was just under 28 minutes today. So, either your speed or my stamina can be improved - or both!

That's a cracking time, 2nd in your category too. Hope you got a prize for that!
Yes, hopefully we can both improve. Last year I did 31:18 (not including 12 secs to tie my laces) with av/max HR of 184/192, so 5 bpm less this year. Even though I couldn't get the legs to go any faster, the pace felt reasonably comfortable, so I'm hoping with more strides, tempo and VO2 max work I'll be able to get the pace up a bit more.

Git101

Well done Aero2k, a great start for the 10 mile target.

I have to admit I'm totally pissed that the course was seemed short, although even if they had extended it by a few hundred metres I would still have had a PD . Aren't drugs great Ted......only joking

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

Well done Aero2k, a great start for the 10 mile target.

I have to admit I'm totally pissed that the course was seemed short, although even if they had extended it by a few hundred metres I would still have had a PD . Aren't drugs great Ted......only joking

Cheers Git, you did a smashing time too, you're improving a lot quicker than me and I know there's more to come.

Yeah, drugs ftw! (Yes, I do have a TUE)

tisnotover

Great stuff aero, well done, very ncie splits !

Real pity about the course being short...can't believe that in this age like !

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

Great stuff aero, well done, very ncie splits !

Cheers tno, the splits seem to match the Garmin elevation gain/loss fairly well. and there was a nice steady increase in HR all the way - I think I got the effort fairly even, which was the goal. I enjoyed it more than any other 5mile/8k/4.88 mile race and not just for the time, I think I felt better after this than any other one.

Looking forward to the 10 in 5 weeks time.

RacoonQueen

Good to see you again at the finish line and another great result for you. Are you in for the 10k in Parkwest?

seanynova

good time/splits aero2k, even when you dont do too many VO2 sessions etc, its very good speed!

sub2:50 is defo on the cards in the future! just pick a nice autumn or early spring marathon

ive signed up for amsterdam this october, should be cooler than edinburgh but maybe my fitness wont be there this time?

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Are you in for the 10k in Parkwest?

Who do you think I am - you?:pac:

I thought it was a bit dear, and there seems to be mixed feedback on the organisers, though I'd bet it'll be 10,000m long, at least. I'd like to do the Liberties race for sentimental reasons, (no, not just for the free massage) I definitely won't do both. Not sure what the situation on entering at this late stage is, I'll see how the body is tomorrow and check online then.

RacoonQueen

aero2k wrote: »

Who do you think I am - you?:pac:

I thought it was a bit dear, and there seems to be mixed feedback on the organisers, though I'd bet it'll be 10,000m long, at least. I'd like to do the Liberties race for sentimental reasons, (no, not just for the free massage) I definitely won't do both. Not sure what the situation on entering at this late stage is, I'll see how the body is tomorrow and check online then.

I haven't done any of Eoin's races yet. Parkwest is the day after Bogtrotters so it's just a err recovery jog for me. I couldn't miss this one with it being a few minutes from my house.

aero2k

seanynova wrote: »

good time/splits aero2k, even when you dont do too many VO2 sessions etc, its very good speed!

sub2:50 is defo on the cards in the future! just pick a nice autumn or early spring marathon

ive signed up for amsterdam this october, should be cooler than edinburgh but maybe my fitness wont be there this time?

Cheers seanynova, don't worry about the fitness, you'll be building on the base from Edinburgh, and you still have plenty of time if you keep the training consistent.

I've decided to scrap the idea of an autumn marathon. I'm thinking of late March/early April 2011 at the earliest, though I might defer it to Autumn 2011. I haven't ruled out Edinburgh, though that course is wide open to the weather - there's no shelter from sun or wind (or the snow they've had at least once!)

If I could be sure of a calm day, 15 degrees or less, I'd sign up now.

BTW Gringo78 sent me a spreadsheet which allows correction for temperature, it tells me I'd have done around 2:51 on a cooler day in Edinburgh. Not quite the same as actually going out and doing it, but food for thought.

seanynova

aero2k wrote: »

Cheers seanynova, don't worry about the fitness, you'll be building on the base from Edinburgh, and you still have plenty of time if you keep the training consistent.

I've decided to scrap the idea of an autumn marathon. I'm thinking of late March/early April 2011 at the earliest, though I might defer it to Autumn 2011. I haven't ruled out Edinburgh, though that course is wide open to the weather - there's no shelter from sun or wind (or the snow they've had at least once!)

If I could be sure of a calm day, 15 degrees or less, I'd sign up now.

BTW Gringo78 sent me a spreadsheet which allows correction for temperature, it tells me I'd have done around 2:51 on a cooler day in Edinburgh. Not quite the same as actually going out and doing it, but food for thought.

maybe working on the shorter stuff for the next 5 or so months would be good for you, and hit an early spring marathon, rotterdam, paris or barcelona etc, although barcelona may be a bit too early...there is also the cork and waterford halves this autumn/winter, would be good benchmarks, esp waterford half in december i think.

ill see how i go, my programme will be inturupted a bit over the course of the summer but ill do what i can these days and hopefully the tempo pace will pick up to previous levels soon...plenty time yet anyway i guess.

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I couldn't miss this one with it being a few minutes from my house.

Yeah, it'd be like me missing a race in the Park...
(ok, I've missed one or two...)

aero2k

Took me ages to find my log - I should have just posted on Krusty or RQ's log as usual.:D

This was sort of a last minute idea. I grew up close to the course and I'd have walked most of the route as a kid, and I was sorry I missed last year's event. I decided if I felt good on yesterday's run I'd enter, and as it turned out recovery after the 4.9 mile race was reasonably quick, so I thought "sure why not?" I was delighted to get a call from Git101 saying he was thinking of giving it a lash - I never bothered to call him as I was sure he wouldn't make the round trip from the bog for a short race. Of course he was on for gong back to his roots too, and combining it with a quick visit to the folks - his da and son were out in support.

My goal for this race was to beat my previous best average time of 5:50 per mile set in the Raheny Midsummer 5k. That would mean around 23:30 for 4.04 miles. Perhaps inspired by the Brian Maher article in yesterday's Farmer's Journal, I decided not to look at the Garmin during the race, and just to run as fast as I could.

I had a shorter than usual warm-up but still felt ok - maybe thanks to a gentle 3.3 this morning - and after some relaxed strides I lined up with 4 mins to go, second row from the front. Then we were off, a nice route through the RHK grounds, lots of sharp corners but no problems. A fast downhill to a sharp right out the gate gave me a moment of anxiety, but I got out fine. More twists and turns and a short sharp uphill, and we were making our way down James St.

At this stage I was tucked in with a little group including the two leading ladies. They're both faster than me so I decided to try to hang in there for as long as I could. As we passed the Guiness Storehouse we closed on a few lads ahead, and we had pretty much passed them by the time we made the sharp left onto the slight downhill of the Coombe.

I had struggled a bit with the fast start, my breathing had been very laboured, but I had said to myself "just wait a bit and see if it settles down." Now I was breathing very hard, but controlled, and at least once every 100m I found I was hanging off the back of the group and I had to make an effort to keep up. Every time I managed to hang on though, and I was feeling good as we made our way to the uphill bit at the end of Patrick St, heading for the left turn onto High St near Cristchurch.

I had to dig in a bit to keep up there, but I made it okay, and then I had to try to get my breath back as the road levelled out. Soon we were onto Thomas St and one of the leading ladies dropped off the back of our group. I dug in again, and managed to hang on until we'd almost got to James Hospital. The leading lady and one lad got away at that point, and I had just one lad for company.

I was really feeling tired now, but the gap in front wasn't growing too quickly, so I took heart from that. As we left the hospital grounds at Rialto Gate my final companion got a few yards on me. Try as I might I couldn't close the gap, but I managed to keep it down to maybe 20m. We made the right turn onto the last bit of public road before re-entering the RHK, and at the traffic lights at the bottom of the short hill the leading lady was almost wiped out by a taxi doing some sort of crazy manouvre. Thankfully she escaped unscathed and made it on to victory.

I was barely hanging on as we ducked under the archway and turned into the finishing straight. I got a much needed shout from Misty Floyd at that turn, and I was dying all the way up the finishing straight, so much so that I sneaked a little look over my shoulder to make sure no-one could pass me. Thankfully I was safe and in a mercifully short time I was collapsing on the grass beyond the finish line.

Now I could look at the Garmin and what an unbelievable tale it told - I had followed up an opening mile of 5:28 with miles of 5:28, 5:42 and 5:44 for a Garmin time of 22:26 (recorded distance slightly short at 4.01 miles).

Great to see Git101 finish in 25ish, and Chinguetti also having a good run (sorry, couldn't see the clock as he finished).

Off to bed now, I'll update when I get the official results.

Great race, good organisation, marshalling good though very tricky for them with all the corners and the traffic.

misty floyd

Ah it was you (ignore the PM). Great running Aero. Its funny, I was thinking that you looked comfortable and I would never of thought you were 'hanging in'. Well done.

Git101

Well done again Aero, another cracking time.

Great to see the auld lads getting faster
Like yourself I was delighted to take a trip around the area again.

Thanks for the sign on, it made for a much more relaxing journey and a chance to have a cuppa with the folks.

I like to join some of the other lads posting here and suggest that you reconsider the Dublin marathon this year

RacoonQueen

Agh if I'd known so many of yee were doing it I'd have made more effort to get down. Well done aero, that's an absolutely cracking time.