Edinburgh 2010: a backwards marathon training log

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

Well done again Aero, another cracking time.

Great to see the auld lads getting faster

Thanks Git, unfortunately some auld lads are stil way faster than us!

Git101 wrote: »

Like yourself I was delighted to take a trip around the area again.

Thanks for the sign on, it made for a much more relaxing journey and a chance to have a cuppa with the folks.

No problem, it was nice to do a fun event, and I was actually surprised at how much of the route I was aware of given the pace - the tunnel vision wasn't as bad as usual.:)

Git101 wrote: »

I like to join some of the other lads posting here and suggest that you reconsider the Dublin marathon this year

"the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result" (Albert Einstein).
Since I'm such a nice guy, everytime someone asks me nicely, I will reconsider - but the result of that reconsideration will be the same.:pac:

aero2k

misty floyd wrote: »

Ah it was you (ignore the PM). Great running Aero. Its funny, I was thinking that you looked comfortable and I would never of thought you were 'hanging in'. Well done.

Cheers Misty, the shout was much needed!

The fact that you weren't sure it was me suggests I looked a bit strange, but the fact that I recognised you may mean I wasn't trying hard enough!

aero2k

Garmin details here

Gringo78

Great result and I'm not surprised....your shorter race times, 4m/5m/10k/10m never really matched up with your marathon times so possibly the garmin was holding you back. I think you've made a massive leap there (mentally), it suddenly makes 6min/mile your conservative tempo target, you need to HTFU and hit that pace in tempo's, no reason why you can't. Don't be tempted by the marathon in October...see how fast you can go by Christmas.

Git101

aero2k wrote: »

Thanks Git, unfortunately some auld lads are stil way faster than us!

I was actually refering to you not me ..... I'm not an auld lad

aero2k wrote: »

"the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result" (Albert Einstein).
Since I'm such a nice guy, everytime someone asks me nicely, I will reconsider - but the result of that reconsideration will be the same.:pac:

Ok Aero, I won't mention it again (this month)

Krusty_Clown

Average HR=180?! You're as strong as an ox. 10 Miles at 5:55/mile will feel like a jog around the park by comparison. Congrats!

tisnotover

+1 to all above really Aero, cracking time, I've a feeling you'll be breaking a good few more PB's yet !!

Oh and def sub-60 for the 10miler !

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

Great result and I'm not surprised....your shorter race times, 4m/5m/10k/10m never really matched up with your marathon times so possibly the garmin was holding you back. I think you've made a massive leap there (mentally), it suddenly makes 6min/mile your conservative tempo target, you need to HTFU and hit that pace in tempo's, no reason why you can't.

Thanks Gringo - you put it up to me by talking about the tempo stuff when I was recovering from Edinburgh, and though I found the few sessions tough, I could really feel the benefits. It took me back to the sort of training I used to do in my bike racing days.
Interesting that you mention the mental part. Yesterday was the first time in a running race that I got in with a group early and decided to hang on to them no matter what. (This is also a relic of bike racing, it was an extremely rare occurrence for me to let a gap open in front of me, I would always tell myself that no matter how much it hurt, it was easier than riding on my own). In the end I got dropped about 10 times, and made it back to the group 9 of those times. The last one was just a bit too much mentally, though of course the legs were knackered at that stage also.

I'm going to have a review of training paces and race targets over the weekend, I'll post more here then.

Gringo78 wrote: »

Don't be tempted by the marathon in October...see how fast you can go by Christmas.

Ah, a voice of sanity at last. I might enter a spring marathon to give me a goal, but I may wait until DCM '11. Although I think the marathon is my best distance, I used to enjoy a flat out 20-25 min blast on the bike - I never actually managed to do a 10 mile TT in a race (I won one but it turned out to be short!), but I did a couple of good ones in training.

Git101 wrote: »

I was actually refering to you not me ..... I'm not an auld lad
Ok Aero, I won't mention it again (this month)

T minus 8 days and counting.....

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Average HR=180?! You're as strong as an ox. 10 Miles at 5:55/mile will feel like a jog around the park by comparison. Congrats!

Thanks Krusty!

I think my max and resting HR is probably a bit higher than yours. I used to ride a 25 mile TT (just under 1 hour) at around 184. The best I managed was 200 for 10 min on a treadmill, and 195 for 10 min on a rower. Running on the road seems easy now that I think back to those efforts!

tunguska

Another great run Sean. Frank Duffy will be a very interesting race now. And yes, I will keep at you about the Dublin Marathon. Myself and Git101 will join forces and harrass you night and day until you capitulate. So you might aswell just save yourself the hassle and sign up.

shotgunmcos

Fantastic 4 miles there aero2k, some speed. How much do you think your cycling days ahev contributed to your running? How much of the running perfromance is down to just mileage rather than the speedwork? Oh and what did you do for a 25TT in your hayday so I can guauge the talent this running has sprung from?

Sorry about all the Qs

Well done again Chief.

aero2k

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Fantastic 4 miles there aero2k, some speed. How much do you think your cycling days ahev contributed to your running? How much of the running perfromance is down to just mileage rather than the speedwork? Oh and what did you do for a 25TT in your hayday so I can guauge the talent this running has sprung from?

Sorry about all the Qs

Well done again Chief.

Thanks MCOS, I appreciate the compliment from a multi-talented fella like yourself.

I think the running performance is down to a combination of miles and speed. I averaged close to 60 mpw for Edinburgh with no real speedwork. Since then (2 months) I'm down to about 45 mpw - I run every day - and I started doing tempo runs about 4 or 5 weeks ago. I've done 1 proper VO2 max session, a 5 k race (probably counts as VO2 max) a 10k, a 5 4.9 mile, and last nights 6.5k, so I think the endurance base has helped the training and racing feel comfortable, and in turn the training and racing have brought some speed benefits.

The main contribution from the cycling has been in my approach - in my teens I tried to do the old fashioned cycling training of "300 miles per week good, 600 miles per week better!". As a 16 year old I trained on long weekend spins with 5 senior internationals including one Olympian. This was good and bad - I had something to aim for, but when I inevitably came up short I got disillusioned, and lacking the maturity to handle that I just threw my hat at it.

When by chance I got back into cycling in my mid 30's I had a background in engineering, so I was able to be a bit more thoughtful in my approach. I did a bit of research, set some goals, and focused on quality rather than quantity in training. I used to race a lot more than I do now that I'm running, sometimes up to 3 times per week, but I treated most of those races as training rides, and the rest of my riding was slow and easy.

I think the bike racing and associated training thought me a bit about patience - the results willl come if you put the work in, and also about hanging in when it's not going well: many times I nearly climbed off in a race, but after hanging on another few miles I suddenly felt better. Last night's race certainly brought back memories of grimly hanging onto the wheel in front!

I've also learned to accept that no matter how fit you are, you can't expect to go out every day and set a PB or have a terrific session. Some days are good, some are mediocre, and some are wonderful - that's just how it is.

My time trialling record is, from memory:

'99 National 25 championships 59:47 (winner 53:xx)

I had tried a big road-racing comeback earlier in the season, got disillusioned (again!), sold the bike, and forgot all about it until I strolled into Cycleways one day and bought a bike on impulse 'cos I liked the paint job. The race was 7 weeks away, and I said "I'm going under the hour!"

2000 club championship 59:08 3rd place (winner 57:xx)

2001 club championship 61:08 (injured shoulder in a fall the previous week) winner 55:xx (the late , great Paul Healion, then reigning national champ.)

2003 Oregon State Championships 62:xx - in a poorly trained condition. Winner 52:xx

I did a '10' on an official measured course in 21:50 in training.

I always felt I had a 57:00 25 in me, but life circumstances got in the way. The TT bike is still hanging up in the shed though!

[Just for comparison purposes at my peak I had a LT power of around 270 watts - not that impressive compared to my VO2 max. I think I performed well by having a good aero position and by doing specific training - tempo and cruise intervals on the turbo]

One more thing - sorry for the long post - I've mentioned in other posts being dissatisfied with one result or another. I've got responses that suggest it's something I'm bothered about. On the contrary, although it does annoy me for a bit, I usually have a think about it, look at what went wrong (that I have control over), and try to change it for next time.

Last night's performance definitely had its roots in a sub-optimal Edinburgh race.

seanynova

Hey Aero2k, congrats on the race, that was cracking speed....i see why gringo wants you to stick with the shorter stuff, its in you like. the marathon may always be your favourite and best race but there is no reason why the shorter stuff can't be just as good pace wise...im thinking 10m and half, sub 60 & sub 80?

aero2k

seanynova wrote: »

im thinking 10m and half, sub 60 & sub 80?

So am I!:D

Seres

aero2k wrote: »

Thanks MCOS, I appreciate the compliment from a multi-talented fella like yourself.

I think the running performance is down to a combination of miles and speed. I averaged close to 60 mpw for Edinburgh with no real speedwork. Since then (2 months) I'm down to about 45 mpw - I run every day - and I started doing tempo runs about 4 or 5 weeks ago. I've done 1 proper VO2 max session, a 5 k race (probably counts as VO2 max) a 10k, a 5 4.9 mile, and last nights 6.5k, so I think the endurance base has helped the training and racing feel comfortable, and in turn the training and racing have brought some speed benefits.

The main contribution from the cycling has been in my approach - in my teens I tried to do the old fashioned cycling training of "300 miles per week good, 600 miles per week better!". As a 16 year old I trained on long weekend spins with 5 senior internationals including one Olympian. This was good and bad - I had something to aim for, but when I inevitably came up short I got disillusioned, and lacking the maturity to handle that I just threw my hat at it.

When by chance I got back into cycling in my mid 30's I had a background in engineering, so I was able to be a bit more thoughtful in my approach. I did a bit of research, set some goals, and focused on quality rather than quantity in training. I used to race a lot more than I do now that I'm running, sometimes up to 3 times per week, but I treated most of those races as training rides, and the rest of my riding was slow and easy.

I think the bike racing and associated training thought me a bit about patience - the results willl come if you put the work in, and also about hanging in when it's not going well: many times I nearly climbed off in a race, but after hanging on another few miles I suddenly felt better. Last night's race certainly brought back memories of grimly hanging onto the wheel in front!

I've also learned to accept that no matter how fit you are, you can't expect to go out every day and set a PB or have a terrific session. Some days are good, some are mediocre, and some are wonderful - that's just how it is.

My time trialling record is, from memory:

'99 National 25 championships 59:47 (winner 53:xx)

I had tried a big road-racing comeback earlier in the season, got disillusioned (again!), sold the bike, and forgot all about it until I strolled into Cycleways one day and bought a bike on impulse 'cos I liked the paint job. The race was 7 weeks away, and I said "I'm going under the hour!"

2000 club championship 59:08 3rd place (winner 57:xx)

2001 club championship 61:08 (injured shoulder in a fall the previous week) winner 55:xx (the late , great Paul Healion, then reigning national champ.)

2003 Oregon State Championships 62:xx - in a poorly trained condition. Winner 52:xx

I did a '10' on an official measured course in 21:50 in training.

I always felt I had a 57:00 25 in me, but life circumstances got in the way. The TT bike is still hanging up in the shed though!

[Just for comparison purposes at my peak I had a LT power of around 270 watts - not that impressive compared to my VO2 max. I think I performed well by having a good aero position and by doing specific training - tempo and cruise intervals on the turbo]

One more thing - sorry for the long post - I've mentioned in other posts being dissatisfied with one result or another. I've got responses that suggest it's something I'm bothered about. On the contrary, although it does annoy me for a bit, I usually have a think about it, look at what went wrong (that I have control over), and try to change it for next time.

Last night's performance definitely had its roots in a sub-optimal Edinburgh race.

great motivational read , didnt know you had a log , will be keepin an eye on it , dont get much time to read the logs anymore

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

Another great run Sean. Frank Duffy will be a very interesting race now. And yes, I will keep at you about the Dublin Marathon. Myself and Git101 will join forces and harrass you night and day until you capitulate. So you might aswell just save yourself the hassle and sign up.

I'll have Gringo on my side - things are bad when I have to enlist a Corkman to help fight of two of my own crowd!
Honestly, next you'll be trying to get me to join a club!:pac:

Seres wrote: »

great motivational read , didnt know you had a log , will be keepin an eye on it , dont get much time to read the logs anymore

Thanks Seres, the nice words really mean a lot coming from someone who's had such great recent performances.

Actually I have several logs - I'm on a campaign to gain squatter's rights on Krusty's log, and I've been known to post a whole pile of ramdom sh1te on the first log I come across when my own is too hard to find because I haven't updated it. (that's most of the time!)

I don't post too often, the plan is to post race reports with maybe a look back at the training in the lead-up, and also any interesting stuff I come across. It's also a place for me to think out loud a bit.

I'm actually finding it quite beneficial, the feedback and encouragement have been very helpful.

Seres

aero2k wrote: »

I'll have Gringo on my side - things are bad when I have to enlist a Corkman to help fight of two of my own crowd!
Honestly, next you'll be trying to get me to join a club!:pac:

Thanks Seres, the nice words really mean a lot coming from someone who's had such great recent performances.

Actually I have several logs - I'm on a campaign to gain squatter's rights on Krusty's log, and I've been known to post a whole pile of ramdom sh1te on the first log I come across when my own is too hard to find because I haven't updated it. (that's most of the time!)

I don't post too often, the plan is to post race reports with maybe a look back at the training in the lead-up, and also any interesting stuff I come across. It's also a place for me to think out loud a bit.

I'm actually finding it quite beneficial, the feedback and encouragement have been very helpful.

bit like the cuckoo , was thinkin though maybe kcs log could double up as garmin support thread

aero2k

Seres wrote: »

bit like the cuckoo , was thinkin though maybe kcs log could double up as garmin support thread

I think "cuckoo" sums the whole thing up in so many ways!

I'm trying to follow your good example of stretching and core work, but sadly lacking motivation.

Krusty_Clown

Seres wrote: »

was thinkin though maybe kcs log could double up as garmin support thread

Well, it would beat my usual boring sh1te!

Git101

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well, it would beat my usual boring sh1te!

BTW Krusty my 405 is saying that the "lap data is nearly full - delete old data - how do I do that.....
Only joking I'll RTFM tomorrow

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

BTW Krusty my 405 is saying that the "lap data is nearly full - delete old data - how do I do that.....
Only joking I'll RTFM tomorrow

Stop running so much!:pac:

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well, it would beat my usual boring sh1te!

Krusty, have you not got a 100 mile run or something to do?

Seriously, I have to say I'm so used to reading of your frequent marathons, mountain runs and at least one ultra, I kind of took your 30 mile run yesterday for granted - until I did 12 and a bit today at around 7:20/mile. The legs are feeling it now, and I have a whole new admiration for you.

Git101

aero2k wrote: »

Stop running so much!:pac:

Ok, maybe you're right.... 2 races and 66 miles in one week ... all your fault

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

... all your fault

Yeah,

That and the recent chocolate addiction!:D

Git101

aero2k wrote: »

Yeah,

That and the recent chocolate addiction!:D

You're a bad influence... I must warn the other lads about you

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

You're a bad influence... I must warn the other lads about you

See you've got the A/R/T addiction now as well!:D

Git101

aero2k wrote: »

See you've got the A/R/T addiction now as well!:D

Can't blame you for that one... been a long time lurker or more correctly a very occasional poster.

BTW I was thinking about doing the 10k at Crookstown 8th Aug if you fancy giving it a go. Maybe make a weekend of it?

aero2k

Okay, after hitting the 2 mile mark in the Liberties 6.5k in 10:56 (per Garmin), I thought it would be a good idea to give the last of the Raheny League races (a 2 miler) a bash on Tuesday night. I turned up, paid the €7, had a short warm-up (interrupted by a loo stop), and took my place on the start line at the front of the group.

My legs had felt heavy while jogging and doing strides, but I hoped I'd be okay. This race is 2 laps of a sort of triangular course on a mixture of concrete and very smooth tarmac, with a very gentle incline after the start that turns into a major hill by the second lap. I tried to start as fast as I could without blowing up, and a quick glance (my only one of the race) at the Garmin showed 5.24/mile, so about right. Out in front of me the leaders had almost disappeared, and there was another group of runners about 25m ahead. I managed to catch this group and sat in until the 1 mile mark.

At this stage my breathing was fairly comfortable - it had been pretty ragged for the first couple of minutes, but the legs still felt heavy as we passed 1 mile in around 5:31. I moved ahead of the group then, and felt okay with the increase in pace, but soon after that one very strong runner came up to me, and try as I might I couldn't hang on to him. It was all about damage limitation from then on, and I was passed before the finish by one (or maybe 2? more runner(s). I crossed the line in 11:10.

Garmin stuff:here

So where does that leave me?

Using that race time gives me a VDOT of 57, reasonably consistent with the 5k and 10k times I hit in June, but way behind the VDOT of 60 suggested by last weeks 4 mile time. Being an optimist I'm putting the 2 mile down to race fatigue and Sunday's fairly brisk long run - I usually go long on Sat but had to put it back a day. I feel much better since so I'm leaning towards the higher value.

Also HR was lower - max 184 - than the 6.5k, so I reckon my legs were too tired to trouble the CV system.

What does this mean?

Well VDOT 57 means tempo runs at 6:09, easy runs at 7.41, while VDOT 60 means tempo at 5:54 and easy 7:22. (ref Daniels)

I propose splitting the difference and getting as close as I can to 6.00/mile for tempos for the next 2-3 weeks. I really need to sharpen up for the Frank Duffy; McMillan says it's on, based on the Liberties time, but only just.

I won't be posting much for the next few weeks, I'm going to be pretty busy, but I will update if there's anything worthy of discussion.

Krusty_Clown

So, with just two days to the 10m, what's the strategy aero2k?
6 min/mile for the entire race, and try and pick it up for the last two miles?
Faster before the hill, slow down on the climb, then pick it up again?
Bank some time for the hill?

I think I'll aim for just slightly faster than 6 min/mile, and run a little slower up the hill. Weather looks nice and cool, with just a gentle 4m/s wind, so decent conditions.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

So, with just two days to the 10m, what's the strategy aero2k?
6 min/mile for the entire race, and try and pick it up for the last two miles?
Faster before the hill, slow down on the climb, then pick it up again?
Bank some time for the hill?

I think I'll aim for just slightly faster than 6 min/mile, and run a little slower up the hill. Weather looks nice and cool, with just a gentle 4m/s wind, so decent conditions.

Hope that blister is better!

Thanks Krusty, you've saved me the trouble of checking the weather. I've been too busy to post a reply to all the speculation regarding Krusty vs aero - I actually visualised gaydars going off all over the park as Krusty and aero cross the finish line hand in hand, while aero sneakily uses the hand-hold to pull the all important .01 sec ahead. It won't show up on the chip timing, but I'll know it's there.:D

I think the best strategy is to go for even effort - if you can't manage to bank a few seconds in the first half then sub 60 isn't going to happen. I need to have a look at the Garmin data for the 5 mile - I reckon 20-30 sec slower over the last 5 compared to the first. A lot of people hate the hills, but for me they're not too bad. You hit the first one after a nice fast downhill, and once you get to the top you've a downhill section through the s-bends so it's not too hard to get the legs going again. I think the worst part is mile 9 - it looks flat, but it's slightly uphill, and your legs are wobbly after coming up the second hill. You need to stick to the task and force the tired legs to keep up a good rhythm there, otherwise it's really easy to lose precious seconds.. Once you hit the 9 mile marker you'll get another lease of life as it's all flat or slightly downhill from there.

On a good day I'm pretty sure I could do the first 5 in 29 min, and the second 5 in under 30. Doing those two things consecutively is a whole other challenge.

Given the benign nature of the first 6.5 miles, (especially if the wind is kind) I've been toying with the idea of trying to hang on to a fast group from the start, as per the Liberties 6.5k, though that's a bit of a gamble, and it's a long way to go if I get it wrong. I'll see how it feels on the day - if it all goes pear shaped I can have another go in a few weeks.

As for the (alleged) race against yourself, well I'd rather finish behind you in 59:xx than ahead of you in 60:xx, but the most important thing is to get the best out of myself on the day - I hope that you and all the other 1000's of competitors will manage to do the same.

I'll make time over the weekend to answer a few other things I've missed out on over the last week or two.

misty floyd

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I think I'll aim for just slightly faster than 6 min/mile, and run a little slower up the hill. Weather looks nice and cool, with just a gentle 4m/s wind, so decent conditions.

Looking forward to your two sub 60 attempt reports. Best of luck lads.