Edinburgh 2010: a backwards marathon training log

aero2k

Seres wrote: »

glad to see you are still hammering at it , two solid performances , well done

I had intended to hammer it a bit more last Saturday, but a combination of the crowd, the wind, and my own sluggishness put paid to that. Funnily enough I felt worse on Thursday but managed a 5:26 opening mile...I wish I could figure out the difference. Maybe I was more relaxed on Thursday.

You're knocking out a few scary sessions yourself. Are you still on for the half in the Phoenix park in September?

ronnie085

aero2k wrote: »

Just to satisfy my curiosity, why cut the corners? If you wanted to shorten the route, you could have turned left onto Chesterfield Ave just after the start.:pac:

To be honest it was just a reaction to being passed, without thinking i latched onto the back of a faster moving group which happened to be on the path, more of a reflex than purposely trying to shorten the route.

Racman

aero2k wrote: »

I had been passed by at least 10 people who took to the paths on the s-bends, so heading down Military road I decided to get as many of them as I could.

6:15 for mile 5 but I managed 5:39 pace for the last 100 yards where I picked off 3 of the "cheats".

Interesting comment. My understanding is that the course must be measured by the shortest possible route, unless it is taped or coned off, so paths are part of the shortest (and thus measured) route. I must ask the official course measurer about this when I see him next. For what it is worth, I ran across the path, following the people ahead of me and, until I find out otherwise, my conscience is clear!

Nice feature on you in The Irish Times too.

Seres

aero2k wrote: »

I had intended to hammer it a bit more last Saturday, but a combination of the crowd, the wind, and my own sluggishness put paid to that. Funnily enough I felt worse on Thursday but managed a 5:26 opening mile...I wish I could figure out the difference. Maybe I was more relaxed on Thursday.

You're knocking out a few scary sessions yourself. Are you still on for the half in the Phoenix park in September?

the benefit of these will be reveiled soon enough i suppose , ya the adidas half in september is the main goal , will prob do the 10miler also , havent had a race since the mini marathon so looking forward to the few i have planned ahead , have you a target race at the moment ?

aero2k

Racman wrote: »

Interesting comment. My understanding is that the course must be measured by the shortest possible route, unless it is taped or coned off, so paths are part of the shortest (and thus measured) route. I must ask the official course measurer about this when I see him next. For what it is worth, I ran across the path, following the people ahead of me and, until I find out otherwise, my conscience is clear!

Nice feature on you in The Irish Times too.

Thanks, I guess that was my 15 sec of fame. I picked you out in the crowd in the Indo pic - great time btw, did you get a prize?

As for the measurement, I just assumed you had to stay on the road. Maybe Condo can clarify?

I've been equally puzzled by the number of people who don't understand tangents and so hug the kerb, even on the "long" side of the road.

ronnie085 wrote: »

To be honest it was just a reaction to being passed, without thinking i latched onto the back of a faster moving group which happened to be on the path, more of a reflex than purposely trying to shorten the route.

That's perfectly understandable. I find it takes a conscious effort from me not to just follow. As mentioned, I hate the stride disruption (not that my stride is anyway smooth). I'll have to find the first person to hit the paths, and ask them their reasons.

Seres wrote: »

the benefit of these will be reveiled soon enough i suppose , ya the adidas half in september is the main goal , will prob do the 10miler also , havent had a race since the mini marathon so looking forward to the few i have planned ahead , have you a target race at the moment ?

I'm in for the 10 and half as well. I won't be starting either at 5:15 pace!

aero2k

Okay, I don't usually post about training sessions. I tend to reserve this log for races, however today's session nearly turned into a race. Inspired by Krusty_Clown and others who've been turning in some scary impressive sessions recently, I decided that today's 15 would start out around 7:45 pace, and finish up around 7:00. In keeping with the title of this log and sometimes life in general, I ended up getting it a bit backwards.:)

I had planned to get out at 9am, but for various reasons I delayed that. I checked my email and saw that tunguska had invited the_roadrunner to join him and a friend for 20 in the park this morning. I thought to myself that that would be a savage session.....

I headed out, and after about a mile I thought I recognised a couple of the lads heading towards me. Sure enough it was the aforementioned trio, so I did a quick about turn and jumped in at the back. 7.30 pace was a bit fast for me that early in a run, however we were soon hitting 7ish, and this was on trails and rough grass, so worth maybe 10 sec on smooth road for the same effort. I struggled to keep up some of the time, but extra little efforts got me back in touch, and if the legs were suffering at least the breathing was fine. In fact I even managed a deeply intellectual chat with TRR about the merits of nude running, and I had a brief moment of horror when I thought he was going to give a practical demonstration - thankfully he restricted it to removing his T-shirt. The other pair soon followed suit but I decided to stay covered up - I'm trying to avoid the paparazzi since my IT appearance..

After following the lads over terrain I didn't even know existed, we finally got to the end of their run - they did an extra loop just to make their target of 20 for the day. I'm convinced I saw tunguska do a sneaky 10 laps of a beech tree just to be sure to be sure, but maybe that was just the heat messing with my head.:D

I had about 7 more to do so I headed on after a brief chat with TRR. I slowed a little but managed to average 7:14 for 15.6 miles - a lot quicker than I usually manage.

Splits were 8:21, 7:02, 7:03, 6:51, 6:58, 7:03, 6:43, 6:57, 7:11, 7:20, 7:15, 7:07, 7:16, 7:21, 7:44 and the last bit at 8:07. See if you can work out where the lads picked me up, and dropped me off!

This brought back memories of my cycling days and club league races. These were run on a handicap basis, and I started off with the slow vets, who at that point were faster than me. After a few weeks I moved to a faster vets & B riders group, and then a while later a really good A rider who was a regular winner of open races and had appointed himself as my mentor, persuaded me to go off in the last group; the A riders. This was a small group, so there was no hiding place. The first week I lasted a couple of miles before I had to suffer the indignity of being shelled out the back and having the aforementioned mentor do a U turn to come back and try in vain to pace me back on. The following week was a bit better, and after a few weeks I no longer felt out of my depth.

That's over 10 years ago so I'm not quite as strong physically, but I'm thinking it might be no harm to find a group for the long runs. We'll see...

Thanks to TRR, tunguska and friend for a most enjoyable few miles.

RacoonQueen

Sounds like a club membership is calling out to you!

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Sounds like a club membership is calling out to you!

I've spent my whole life avoiding many such callings! Anyway, who'd want to join a club that would have the likes of me as a member?:pac:

btw, shouldn't you be at work - self employed people are supposed to work 24/7...

TheRoadRunner

Crap just wait until KC hears about nudey running. I'll never live it down. Yeah those trails are the business and are where I train in the park. Builds leg strength and saves legs from a pounding on the road. You seemed comfortable enough, were chatting away so that's a good sign. I'll let you know next time we are running there. Loads of extra trails to run as well.

RacoonQueen

aero2k wrote: »

btw, shouldn't you be at work - self employed people are supposed to work 24/7...

I'm enjoying the last of my three weeks 'leisure time' - fooking busy next week. Not happy.

aero2k

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Crap just wait until KC hears about nudey running. I'll never live it down.

With the demise of the news of the World, I'm doing my bit to expose celebs' deepest, darkest secrets. Don't worry, you survived "boxergate", you'll get over this one too.:D

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Yeah those trails are the business and are where I train in the park. Builds leg strength and saves legs from a pounding on the road. You seemed comfortable enough, were chatting away so that's a good sign. I'll let you know next time we are running there. Loads of extra trails to run as well.

Cheers, I'd be worried about keeping up over a long run, but I'm never too far from home in the Park so I'd manage to hobble if the worst came to the worst.

I enjoyed the company, the chat and the run.

I'm making a habit of this group running thing. I bumped into Kate O'Neill and a gang this morning at almost the same spot that I met you yesterday. I joined them for 5 or so miles over many of the same trails we did yesterday - thankfully the pace was a bit more sedate.

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I'm enjoying the last of my three weeks 'leisure time' - fooking busy next week. Not happy.

If you want to have a moan, I can direct you to someone else's log...

It's good to be busy - idle hands and all that!

aero2k

Frank Duffy 10.

I'm even later than usual posting this report - I suppose if I'd gone sub 60 I'd have been a bit quicker to the keyboard.

I'll keep it brief. I had one of my now familiar pre-race niggles of the "will I even make it to the start line" variety. 10 days before the race I was struggling to walk, and missed 3 days running in succession. A trip to Krusty's favourite west Dublin dominatrix - I was disappointed at the lack of whips and chains but not at the level of pain inflicted - improved matters considerably and I was moving freely on race day, the only hiccup being a last minute dash back to the house for a pitstop.

I got a much better starting position than for the 5 mile, and a reasonable start too. I could see Racman ahead and thought he'd be good to follow, but the slight gap between us refused to close and I wasn't happy to increase the effort at that stage. Krusty came by around 3 miles, looking smooth and strong, and though I was feeling okay, again the effort required to increase my pace and stay in touch seemed too much. Still I was on sub 60 pace so I just kept plugging away.

It all started to go wrong on Wellington road. I felt I got up the hill okay but I struggled to get my rhythm back as the road levelled out and by the time I passed the 5 mile mark (29:55) I knew I was in trouble. I made a big effort to increase the pace and was pleased when a glance at the Garmin showed 5:50 pace; then I decided to have another glance only to see I had mis-read and it was 6:50!. I made another effort but it didn't bring much success, and several people passed me before the 6 mile mark. I kept plugging away though, and although I didn't get up much speed, I got a reasonably comfortable tempo going. Aerobically I was fine, but the legs just felt weak, with no spring in my step. The hill just after 9 was a bit of a struggle, but again it was the flat bit after that caused most trouble. All hopes of a PB were out the window but I still wanted to beat last year's time.

Alas, I crossed the line in 62:13, 10 seconds and 44 places worse than last year.

Splits were 5:49, 5:56, 5:46, 5:59, 6:09, 6:36, 6:27, 6:14, 6:01 and 6:39 (+22 sec to cross the finish line). I was surprised to see my HR didn't drop much for the second half - average 179.

So what went wrong? Maybe I started a little too fast, or maybe I should have flogged myself to stay with Racman or Krusty. To be honest though, I think it just wasn't there on the day, and my target of sub 60 was too ambitious. No regrets though, it's a cracking course and we had great conditions so I don't think I'd have forgiven myself a more cautious start, even if I had managed a PB (that would have needed 60:42). I need more hard training if I want to improve. I'll review things after the half and see what changes I can make.

On a positive note, my new Adizero Pro shoes (no, of course I didn't do the rookie thing of running in brand new shoes - I ran all of 3 miles in them the night before!) felt really lively and comfortable, all 180 gr. of them!

Congrats to those who had terrific runs - TRR, tunguska, Racman, Krusty and others. Thanks to menosceno for the shout on the finishing straight - I wonder did he know how much I needed it? Git101 was unhappy with his time - like me he's been struggling a bit lately. I was disappointed that Seres couldn't make it, I know she'd have loved that course. She'll have another chance in less than 3 weeks.

aero2k

Okay, if I can bring a log back to life after almost two years, maybe I can do the same with my tired old body.

On the instigation of Git 101, I've posted some ramblings on London and Cork. Be warned, it's a long report so I've linked it here.

Garmin for London and Cork, pics from Cork.

Krusty_Clown

Your average HR in Cork, is around the same as my Max HR. You have an engine like a Ferrari. You just need a new suspension/set of wheels.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Your average HR in Cork, is around the same as my Max HR. You have an engine like a Ferrari. You just need a new suspension/set of wheels.

I thought someone with a slow-revving Bavarian boxer might compare me to a Honda RC45 or similar.:)(There's a great video of Joey Dunlop riding one on the IOM TT circuit with the rev counter bouncing around 15k).

Tbh I'm not sure if I fully trust the Garmin HRM, it takes a few miles to settle down and it seems spikey, however it is consistent after a change of strap. Back around 2000/1 my max HR was 200 with TLAC approx 170. I don't look at the HR during a run - I found that much easier to do in cycling time trials with the watch mounted on the handlebars. I would target 180-185 for a 1 hour effort - I'd probably be a few beats lower now for a 10 mile race.

Leg weakness has always been a challenge - on the bike I could compensate with the gears and high revs to use the heart & lungs to the max, but it's not so easy running - there seems to be a narrower band of cadence that's comfortable.

Anyway, you seem like a big hearted guy...

Krusty_Clown

aero2k wrote: »

I thought someone with a slow-revving Bavarian boxer might compare me to a Honda RC45 or similar.:)(There's a great video of Joey Dunlop riding one on the IOM TT circuit with the rev counter bouncing around 15k).

Used to have a CBR250 MC19 that would rev to 19k RPM. Mad yoke. Too mad, unfortunately. I binned it after just three months. The pipe and slippers Bavarian boxer is just that bit more sensible.

I wouldn't doubt the HR readings after the 2 mile mark. Seems very regular. What happened to you at the 17.34 mile mark?! Definitely looking at some decent times, if you can just get a prolonged injury free spell. Easier said than done.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What happened to you at the 17.34 mile mark?!

I have to admit, in posting the Garmin links I was hoping for a detailed analysis - glad you didn't let me down! I presume you mean the 186 HR - I'm not sure, but I remember feeling warm around that time, it was definitely uphill, and I think I might have glanced at the watch, seen a pace beginning with "7", and decided it was a bit early to let the rot set in.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Definitely looking at some decent times, if you can just get a prolonged injury free spell. Easier said than done.

That's the thought that's been keeping me going for the last 2-3 years. To be fair, it's not an injury as such, I think a sprain / strain / broken bone etc. might be easier to recover from, at least the cure would be definite. My problem seems to have a large congenital aspect - several family members have similar pelvic tilt / lower back issues, however I'm the only one that occasionally tries to run fast & long! I know I probably sound all sentimental going back to my cycling days, but it was a problem then too, so not strictly an injury.

Anyway, I'll trust in the physio for a few months and stick to short, easy runs. Suits my basically lazy nature!:)

Krusty_Clown

I've had pretty good success with increasing the mileage but doing lots of shortish easy runs (for example 2 x 5.5 miles, or 3 x 5.5 miles). It takes the physical stress out of increasing the mileage, and greatly improves aerobic capacity (dropping your heart rate for a similar effort). It takes a lot of time though, as you have to get ready/hydrated/clean-up a couple of times a day. Thankfully, I can fit a lot of running around commuting to work and back, but if I remember correctly, you don't have the same luxury. Could you run out to work or is it just too far?

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thankfully, I can fit a lot of running around commuting to work and back, but if I remember correctly, you don't have the same luxury. Could you run out to work or is it just too far?

I'm really lucky in my work set-up in that we have a small but well equiped gym with decent shower facilities. I used to drive (in fact I worked for the same employer many years ago and I cycled most days, but I'm too much of a wuss now as the route is scary) but I sold the car at Christmas and I take the train now. I wore the Garmin one day on the way home and I was surprised at how short the journey was - I reckon if I follow the Royal canal it's about 10.6 miles, so perfect for a midweek tempo on the way home. I have been toying with the idea for a long while but postponed it in the hope of sorting out my digestive problems - the park is a favourite as I'm always close to home. My working hours are flexible too and I can work from home so I have loads of options.

The main challenge for me is time. Many years ago myself and Git101 shared an interest in basketball - he was the one with the talent. I decided to give up, based on a clash between training and some evening clases, not to mention a complete lack of co-ordination. When I explained the situation to our wonderful coach, he responded :"aero, you have too many irons in the fire". That's still the case! I haven't got your ability to survive on a few hours sleep, and when I have the time I'm often slumped in a chair too knackered to work up enthusiasm. I do realise that it's mostly a case of developing good habits - it wouldn't be too hard to manage a 6am 5 miles and a little run in the evening. The focus will be on the core work for now though, I'm planning not to race for a few months until I feel stronger. I'll probably make an exception for the Liberties 6.5k as it's just mad. Right up your street I reckon - loads of pubs on the route if you fancy more beer & running!:)

tunguska

Bloody hell, you hit 197bpm after 11mins in cork!! And a steady 170+ thereafter with a few 180s thrown in there aswell. How did you feel?
Yeah looks like you were going great guns until mile 19 and then you fell off the cliff a bit. Im sure though you'd sort that out with some long MP runs.

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

Bloody hell, you hit 197bpm after 11mins in cork!! And a steady 170+ thereafter with a few 180s thrown in there aswell. How did you feel?
Yeah looks like you were going great guns until mile 19 and then you fell off the cliff a bit. Im sure though you'd sort that out with some long MP runs.

Cheers - good to exchange posts with you again after a long hiatus.

I don't believe that early heart rate, it always seems to spike in the first 2-3 miles. Maybe that was when I nearly fell over the wheelchair runner!

Nothing too dramatic happened at 19 miles, I think I managed to keep up the effort if not the pace. Once I got going with the sub-3 lads and particularly once I had negotiated the drags out of the tunnel (around 7 miles) and up the Mahon point slip road (8-9 miles) I felt very comfortable and confident of a reasonable time. I felt strong and fresh the whole way, and the heart and lungs were never under any real pressure, but I think the short, sharp hills after 19 miles broke up my rhythm enough that the pace dropped, and my hip flexors were in a bad way then so I thought it was safer not to risk cramping up - I was intent on going sub- 3:15 to get a GFA time for London 2014, and any stopping or walking might have put paid to that.

All in all, for the way I felt throughout, the success of most of my decisions, and the finishing time with respect to the training, I reckon it was my best marathon performance.

You're right about the MP runs - I had a few really good ones coming up to London, however I was a bit crocked after them. It's all about the core!

tunguska

aero2k wrote: »

It's all about the core!

I used to think that aswell but not so much now. Personally I think its all about your overall form thats important. I mean a strong core will definitely help but you can have a strong core and terrible form which would still get you nowhere(and probably injured). My calve went after 4 miles of ballycotton in march and as a consequence I had to jog/walk back to the finish. It wasn't exactly the sharp end of things and I got to see some truly shocking running forms on my way back. One thing that really stood out was how hunched up a lot of people are when they run. Its as if their whole body just folds in on themselves. I think just being aware of your form when you run would sort something like that out on its own, without having to do specific core streghtening exercises. But at the same time I also saw lots of those runners with bad form with earphones on which is probably a really good reason why theyre form is so poor. If youre listening to music while running theres no way your focusing on your form and making corrections as you go. Anyway I think core work is beneficial but I also think awareness of form is probably more important still.

Good to have you back by the way. A friend has moved to chapelizod recently and I'll probably be running in the park a fair bit so hopefully we'll run into each other.

Git101

Ahh Aero, I was content in my own little world where it was ok for me to have my fat head on and avoiding the training log section helped ease my guilt.

Then it happened, the email notification, "New post in Edinburgh 2010"
If it was just a case of dropping by your training log every now and then that would be fine, but as to know, it's not as simple as that. Scrolling through the main page I'm already noting familiar names and thinking I'll drop in there later for a look.
I've popped by Krustys log and laughed out loud at the beer mile post. I have no doubt that this will lead to reading some more of the excellent contributions of the various posters.

The guilt is creeping back.......Feck ya

PS I'd forgotten just how much I enjoyed reading the log section. Glad you're back.

BeepBeep67

tunguska wrote: »

I used to think that aswell but not so much now. Personally I think its all about your overall form thats important. I mean a strong core will definitely help but you can have a strong core and terrible form which would still get you nowhere(and probably injured). My calve went after 4 miles of ballycotton in march and as a consequence I had to jog/walk back to the finish. It wasn't exactly the sharp end of things and I got to see some truly shocking running forms on my way back. One thing that really stood out was how hunched up a lot of people are when they run. Its as if their whole body just folds in on themselves. I think just being aware of your form when you run would sort something like that out on its own, without having to do specific core streghtening exercises. But at the same time I also saw lots of those runners with bad form with earphones on which is probably a really good reason why theyre form is so poor. If youre listening to music while running theres no way your focusing on your form and making corrections as you go. Anyway I think core work is beneficial but I also think awareness of form is probably more important still.

Good to have you back by the way. A friend has moved to chapelizod recently and I'll probably be running in the park a fair bit so hopefully we'll run into each other.

Agree with this, whenever I fatigue I can hear my coaches voice in my head from 30+ years ago 'run tall, push those heels out behind you' the difficulty is recognising it and implementing it.

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

I mean a strong core will definitely help but you can have a strong core and terrible form which would still get you nowhere(and probably injured). ... Anyway I think core work is beneficial but I also think awareness of form is probably more important still.

Agreed, but I reckon it's easier to develop and maintain good form if the core is strong. I suppose what I'm trying to argue for is balance - no good having great lungs and weak legs, or in my case reasonable legs, good heart/lungs, and a core with enough gel to supply Asics! I'm really looking forward to being able to do one sit-up:(

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Agree with this, whenever I fatigue I can hear my coaches voice in my head from 30+ years ago 'run tall, push those heels out behind you' the difficulty is recognising it and implementing it.

Indeed, it's much easier to identify bad form in others, than fix it in yourself.

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

The guilt is creeping back.......Feck ya

PS I'd forgotten just how much I enjoyed reading the log section. Glad you're back.

I'm glad you're back too. My two best marathon times have been in races that you were in as well. Any chance of us doing another together - maybe DCM '14 to celebrate "significant" birthdays?

Git101

aero2k wrote: »

Any chance of us doing another together - maybe DCM '14 to celebrate "significant" birthdays?

Consider it a date..... We might even squeeze another marathon in before the "significant" birthdays