[PR] New rent supplement limits outlined following rent limit review

Graces7

Zamboni wrote: »

If you do not think that it is wrong then we have very obvious different political and social perspectives and I am happy to agree to disagree.

Well, I care about people especially when they are in difficulities Not for their monetary input, which is what your priority here is.

And I try not to judge them either.

RA is not about money; it is about vulnerable people not being forced to sleep on the streets; and sadly more and more in eg Dublin are having to do that these days.

I asked what you would see as a better option, but no reply.

Graces7

Zamboni wrote: »

You're actually off topic again.
This thread is about rent supplement and you're going on about over paid TDs with obscene expense claims.
So I'll just go back to...
There are people on rent supplement who live in more expensive accomodation than actual taxpayers.
This is my problem. This is wrong.

Again, why is it wrong?

If you go on the premise that you should only have what you can earn?

A bricklayer works harder than a pen pusher. Does motre valuable work too, for far less money

Your very base of argument is elitist and unfair.

Graces7

NB.. I a;ways thought that the idea of the richer paying taxes was to provide services for the poorer?

Naive of me, clearly;)

Graces7

K-9 wrote: »

Seems to be a fair reduction considering the fall in rents.

I'm amazed that only 190,000 households rent, I take it far more own property.

No; there are many who do not qualify for RA. Who pay a high rent regardless.

Or a lower one to live in substandard housing.

It is not an easy thing to get..... contrary to what some here think...

The_Conductor

Lets get this thread back on topic folks.

Graces7

We have just had forms to fill in for a review of our Rent Allowance. Is this standard, as last time the RA was reduced like this they simply informed us of the reduction.

Has anyone else had this happen please?

It is giving concern as we are fighting an illegal eviction notice and are a wee bit paranoid.

Thank you

snubbleste

All existing rent supplement tenants are getting a review as a result of the new lower thresholds.
Read the press release post #1

Graces7

snubbleste wrote: »

All existing rent supplement tenants are getting a review as a result of the new lower thresholds.
Read the press release post #1

Thank you; it did not give a date and last time they reduced RA, we did not have to reapply for Rent Allowance.

Is this time different?

Have others had the whole forms to fill in all over again? ie to get the landlord's signature etc all over again? We are concerned that with the eviction notice he has sene, he may withhold permission to try to get us to leave.

snubbleste

Graces7 wrote: »

Thank you; it did not give a date and last time they reduced RA, we did not have to reapply for Rent Allowance.
Is this time different?
Have others had the whole forms to fill in all over again? ie to get the landlord's signature etc all over again? We are concerned that with the eviction notice he has sene, he may withhold permission to try to get us to leave.

Last time your contribution was upped from €13 to €24 per week.
Now the maximum threshold is reduced, so it is up to tenants to negotiate with their landlord to meet the new level or move.

Graces7

snubbleste wrote: »

Last time your contribution was upped from €13 to €24 per week.
Now the maximum threshold is reduced, so it is up to tenants to negotiate with their landlord to meet the new level or move.

I "get" all that.... My query is re individuals all getting new application forms to fill in as we have done?

Given that our landlord is trying to evict us by breaking the lease this seems very strange.

last time we did not have to reapply for Rent Allowance; we simply had a letter which said as you are saying that we could negotiate with the landlord.

This seems different which is why I am asking if anyone here is on RA have they also had to start from scratch, getting the landlord;s details and signature.

If he decides not to sign then we are in deep trouble.

Torakx

I am also worried constantly about my future.No jobs available and i had been working full time since the age of 17.Fully qualified wood machinist but not a single job i can see in dublin let alone ireland at the moment and then id have to compete with the other unemployed machinists.
So 12 years on im unemployed now paying 475 a month for rent sharing an apartment with a friend.Unfortunatly i didnt have money for a deposit so if i try to move when the lease is up i will end up on the streets.
My rent would need to be i think 375 or so a month sharing to get help so i can save for a deposit to move to a cheaper place....
Because they lowered the rates i cant get even rent supplement for long at all.
Add to that a condition that requires i eat food that does not fill my body with toxins and i can barely feed myself.Have lost all the weight i can and it saddens me to see people criticising the poor and homeless or unemployed like its their fault with their situation.
The only fault in mine i believe is i did not have the skills to see the future and chose a construction career instead of a civil servant or bank worker.

There appears to be a battle between the landlords and the government and i doubt ican rely on either to survive.
What are people going to do when the rates are dropped again next year and anoother recession kicks in again.We underprivileged are going to be thrown out onto the streets or put into slums.Least that how bleak life looks for my future.
Thank your lucky stars you have work in whatever section your working guys because you may be joining me later down here where its cold and people are getting desperate.

Graces7

Torakx wrote: »

I am also worried constantly about my future.No jobs available and i had been working full time since the age of 17.Fully qualified wood machinist but not a single job i can see in dublin let alone ireland at the moment and then id have to compete with the other unemployed machinists.
So 12 years on im unemployed now paying 475 a month for rent sharing an apartment with a friend.Unfortunatly i didnt have money for a deposit so if i try to move when the lease is up i will end up on the streets.
My rent would need to be i think 375 or so a month sharing to get help so i can save for a deposit to move to a cheaper place....
Because they lowered the rates i cant get even rent supplement for long at all.
Add to that a condition that requires i eat food that does not fill my body with toxins and i can barely feed myself.Have lost all the weight i can and it saddens me to see people criticising the poor and homeless or unemployed like its their fault with their situation.
The only fault in mine i believe is i did not have the skills to see the future and chose a construction career instead of a civil servant or bank worker.

There appears to be a battle between the landlords and the government and i doubt ican rely on either to survive.
What are people going to do when the rates are dropped again next year and anoother recession kicks in again.We underprivileged are going to be thrown out onto the streets or put into slums.Least that how bleak life looks for my future.
Thank your lucky stars you have work in whatever section your working guys because you may be joining me later down here where its cold and people are getting desperate.

We hear you .... we are pensioners and in very much the same situation.

Hang on in there. as we are doing...

juleserino

Torakx wrote: »

I am also worried constantly about my future.No jobs available and i had been working full time since the age of 17.Fully qualified wood machinist but not a single job i can see in dublin let alone ireland at the moment and then id have to compete with the other unemployed machinists.
So 12 years on im unemployed now paying 475 a month for rent sharing an apartment with a friend.Unfortunatly i didnt have money for a deposit so if i try to move when the lease is up i will end up on the streets.
My rent would need to be i think 375 or so a month sharing to get help so i can save for a deposit to move to a cheaper place....
Because they lowered the rates i cant get even rent supplement for long at all.
Add to that a condition that requires i eat food that does not fill my body with toxins and i can barely feed myself.Have lost all the weight i can and it saddens me to see people criticising the poor and homeless or unemployed like its their fault with their situation.
The only fault in mine i believe is i did not have the skills to see the future and chose a construction career instead of a civil servant or bank worker.

There appears to be a battle between the landlords and the government and i doubt ican rely on either to survive.
What are people going to do when the rates are dropped again next year and anoother recession kicks in again.We underprivileged are going to be thrown out onto the streets or put into slums.Least that how bleak life looks for my future.
Thank your lucky stars you have work in whatever section your working guys because you may be joining me later down here where its cold and people are getting desperate.

If you have been on rent allowance for 18 months, you can qualify for access to the Rental Accommodation Scheme in your local area. It is administered by the County Council. I am not sure if you can apply for a special dispensation if you have been receiving RA for less than 18 months, but it would be worth looking into it.

Its a lousy situation your in and your right, there appears to be very little understanding or empathy around for people in your situation, who now find themselves on the breadline through no fault of their own. Some people just don't get it. They have not experienced what you have experienced and until they do they NEVER will get it.

There are services available, they are difficult to access, and at times it might appear impossible to get to them. But they are out there. Stay on your feet friend, stay strong, arm yourself with as much information on whats available to you as you can and fight the hard fight. Sadly, the reality is that its everyman for himself out there. Best of luck.

Torakx

Unfortunatly my rent is too high to even get rent supplement for more than a month or 2 from what i was told just this morning.Rent allowance is out of the question until i get a deposit and move to a dingy flat full of mold lol
Il be ok i guess.Its just hard to keep spirits high on days when i get refused help and i have no food in the cupboards

Graces7

Torakx wrote: »

Unfortunatly my rent is too high to even get rent supplement for more than a month or 2 from what i was told just this morning.Rent allowance is out of the question until i get a deposit and move to a dingy flat full of mold lol
Il be ok i guess.Its just hard to keep spirits high on days when i get refused help and i have no food in the cupboards

Can you not get your landlord to reduce the rent, or try that with a new place?

We had the landlord here reduce the rent to the ceiling for Rent Allowance. Many will do this to get a tenant.

Worth a try surely?

Torakx

I have been thinking of asking him but really the rent was quite low compared to next door where i moved from so id feelcheeky asking him to drop it 200 odd euro a month.
I have no savings and finding it extremely difficult to gather enough for a deposit if i wanted to move out.
so its a vicious circle until i gather some savings.
Imsure by the time that happens some stupid bill or act will be passed tostoppeople who just moved into a new place from getting rent allowance untilafter another 6 months.
Wouldnt suprise me in the least lol
My situation does not sound that bad,Its mainly getting myself fed to put on some weight is my issue aside from future dwellings.I think its disgracefull the amount of support pensioners are not getting.
This system has once again paid off the banksters and left the rest of the country to fall apart.
I heard for a single personsharing its something like 400 a month limit.
Does anyone know if this is the exact amount? I heard it was lowered recently.

RollYerOwn

A point no-one seems to discuss is that the maximum levels of rent supplement are below the average or even obtainable rent thresholds in the areas.

For everywhere except the commuter counties and Dublin the thresholds are below €550. This means as a previously successful hardworking couple who have fallen foul of redundancy, lack of work etc, you have to sell or dump their worldly goods, move to some kip just so they can afford to pay their bit of the rent that they still have to pay out of their Jobseekers, and then hope to goodness they can get some more work soon so they can afford to live like anyone else who is fortunate to keep their jobs. Evidently they can't then move to something better or plan a family as they would have to repeat ad nauseum. So they stay in the kip for fear of being homeless at some stage in the near future.

And who do we have to thank for this? No less than the hundreds of thousands of lunatics who purchased houses above the cost of their worth that drove up not only house prices, but rents too. There's so much property out there that could be rented at reasonable cost but are standing idle and unoccupied because people are afraid of two things:
1) selling these would not get the return on their exuberant gamble and renting these at a reasonable price would not cover their own mortgages (their problem - they own the place not the renter)
2) if people got the fanciful notion that renting is cheaper than buying then no-one would buy and their investment would remain the burden it has proven to be.

It's all very well punishing those that have fallen foul of bad luck - but don't mistake the majority of the people who are unemployed for being scumbags who don't want to work - the proliferation of jobs in previous years PROVED that the vast majority of people who COULD work WOULD work. If you want to consider free-loaders, consider the "biscuit munchers" - as someone referred to them earlier - who are in jobs where they do little to benefit their employer or society, and keep their job because of their unions. Being given "free money" comes in many guises - and includes just turning up at their place of "employment".

shoegirl

RollYerOwn wrote: »

A point no-one seems to discuss is that the maximum levels of rent supplement are below the average or even obtainable rent thresholds in the areas.

For everywhere except the commuter counties and Dublin the thresholds are below €550. This means as a previously successful hardworking couple who have fallen foul of redundancy, lack of work etc, you have to sell or dump their worldly goods, move to some kip just so they can afford to pay their bit of the rent that they still have to pay out of their Jobseekers, and then hope to goodness they can get some more work soon so they can afford to live like anyone else who is fortunate to keep their jobs. Evidently they can't then move to something better or plan a family as they would have to repeat ad nauseum. So they stay in the kip for fear of being homeless at some stage in the near future.

And who do we have to thank for this? No less than the hundreds of thousands of lunatics who purchased houses above the cost of their worth that drove up not only house prices, but rents too.

I don't think its quite fair to accuse people who paid over the odds for homes of rising rents - most of these were tenants themselves and many of my friends, some of whom shared with me, were watching the rent rise by anything from 8-15% per annum. Between about 1998 and 2001 the price of a 1 bed conversion in Dublin went from about 60 pounds a week to about 150 pounds a week. The landlords exploited the economic situation. In fairness, I don't blame anybody who was paying a 600 a month mortgage on a 2nd property for looking for 1200 in rent - but I do think that somebody who bought that property 20 years ago for 50k and now paying 200 a week on a morgage charging 1200 a month is a stingy, greedy gouger. And a lot of landlords do fall into this category, even the ones who whine about leveraging their borrowings.

Also there were less formal ceilings and restrictions on rent allowance until about 2002 - in fact while unemployment was falling and the country was importing workers from everywhere, the net number of people on rent allowance soared. If you look up articles from ESRI and Welfare websites I think the figure doubled from 1998 to 2002 - exactly at the point when employment was growing fastest! If you spoke to people at that time a lot of the problem was that rent subsidy was seen as an additional entitlement and highly valued. There was always a strong feeling that many welfare recipients were unwilling to take paid work because the total "package" including rent allowance was considerable even then.

Then from about 2002 to 2007 welfare rates themselves grew at twice the rate that the minimum wage grew. I graphed this from 2001 to 2004 and predicted that by 2009 it was likely that somebody on the minimum wage would only be earning about 30% more than the equivalent welfare "package" (that is, rent plus welfare minus rent contribution). In fact the hike in welfare made this the case by about 2005/6.

It isn't the fault of tenants that this situation occured, and it is fair to say that a lot of tenants on welfare live in horrendous conditions - having seen them myself. But its also true that a lot of it was a lifestyle choice consciously made at times when there were alternatives. There are many different sides to the story.

I do feel that poor conditions, poor value for money and massive rent hikes scared a lot of people who might otherwise have been happy to rent into buying prematurely, and this has added to the bust.
The biggest mistake, however, was the assumption that tenants could continue to pay ever spirraling rents - most tenants outside the welfare net are not high earners and cannot afford huge rents - hence the massive drops as there are simply so few who can afford to pay such high prices.

The_Conductor

Also add into the equation the all-time high supply of rental accommodation- and if market forces are allowed to play their inevitable role- rents have only one direction to go.......

Many tenants do seem to be chasing limited supplies of property in some council areas (such as South Dublin) which is almost the only thing maintaining some crazy rental levels (note, levels- not yields)- however as we now have large net outward migration occuring once again- supply even in sought after areas, is increasing.........

If rent-allowance is added into a package of social welfare benefits- alongside the medical card etc- it is a very attractive package- and is quoted by Sean Barrett (ESRI) as one of the many reasons why even with what was considered full employment in Ireland- we still had a stubborn 4% unemployment rate. Of course this also masks people on DA and DB who should never have been included in this figure in the first instance- but it is telling.........

Our little country really needs to be redesigned from the bottom up. People have totally unrealistic salary expectations. Our cost of living is crazy. Our minimum wage is crazy- and our social welfare entitlements are more generous than those in several OPEC oil producing countries (not to mention Norway)........

We really have lost the run of ourselves- and its not just people's expectations of what social welfare levels should be pegged at- its across the board- at all levels of society........ We are not a wealthy country. The boom of the last 15 years was an aberation based on an unsustainable property bubble. People still don't appear to have accepted this inconvenient truth.

Aka Ishur

shoegirl wrote: »

- most tenants outside the welfare net are not high earners and cannot afford huge rents - hence the massive drops as there are simply so few who can afford to pay such high prices.

I think this quote highlights the ridiculousness of the situation tbh.

the_syco

juleserino wrote: »

Zomboni is nothing more than your garden variety Irish elitist.

For working 39 hours a week, we who work get paid on average €100 more than those on the dole.

juleserino wrote: »

Strange really how a nation can sit back and watch a government sink billions into rescuing the wealthy, whilst the rest of the show goes to hell?

Even stranger still is how people think, should our banks fail, that other banks would lend to anyone in a bankrupt state?

Graces7 wrote: »

So why does it bug you so much?

You could say it's because we're paying for it.

You could say jealousy. Jealous that you're working 39+ week and somehow end up with less than the people next door to you who don't work.

RollYerOwn wrote: »

1) selling these would not get the return on their exuberant gamble and renting these at a reasonable price would not cover their own mortgages (their problem - they own the place not the renter)

Would you rent out your house at a loss? Then why should they? In saying that, those who saw having multiple houses as their pension are in for a shock when they are forced to sell them off at a very reduced rate.

=-=

There is talk of putting the poor and unemployed into properties seized by NAMA. Hope this happens sooner rather than later - when demand drops, landlords will hopefully drop rents. Hopefully.

ricman

The government could save millions on rent allowance,let nama give apartments and houses it owns to the local councils who will rent em out at low rates to people on the housing list, one example i know a woman with 1 kid,.SHE payed 70grand in rent allowance for a 3 bed house, over 7 years.
Obviously this money came from the government.

The_Conductor

ricman wrote: »

The government could save millions on rent allowance,let nama give apartments and houses it owns to the local councils who will rent em out at low rates to people on the housing list, one example i know a woman with 1 kid,.SHE payed 70grand in rent allowance for a 3 bed house, over 7 years.
Obviously this money came from the government.

First of all- NAMA own the loans- not the properties. The loans are secured on property- certainly- however NAMA is not a property letting agency- its a financial agency whose remit is to maximise returns from its loanbook, period.

Secondly- the vast bulk of the residential properties associated with NAMA loans are not in areas people have any great interest in living in. Certainly- you have your few high prestige developments- like Elm Park, Dublin 4- they are however, very much the exceptions rather than the rule.

Thirdly- while rent allowance is costing the government an arm and a leg- you're only looking at headline figures. Rental income must be declared and tax paid on it by landlords- and the bulk of that income, is operational income for our sick banking sector. You have to look at the law of unintended consequences here- by pulling the rug from this sector- you crucify a few more folk, make more bad loans, make more investment in the banks necessary by the government, and destroy any nascent sector that may be out there.

The bulk of NAMA property related loans are associated with development land- rather than completed residential units (but include all loans irrespective of their nature over a certain cutoff).

What I was thinking of- is a mad roadshow to the US/France/Germany- flog the rural developments at a knockdown price- with the stipulation that they must be owneroccupied for say 60 days a year, kept in good order and property tax paid on them. Setup small rural industries to service these developments- giving rural residents an alternate income stream, meanwhile giving the government some income from these, and attracting hoardes of tourists to the rural areas.....?

How many single mums do you know who want an apartment in a half built estate in Co. Leitrim?

With respect of rentallowance- its already been chopped twice, and is due a further significant chop in December's budget- possibly in the 20-25% region (its one of the proposals at the moment). Rents have fallen, in line with previous reductions in rent allowance- there is no reason to believe that this will not continue to be the case........

Aka Ishur

Why on earth do they get a say? If a single mum is offered a house anywhere in the vicinity of where she applied, half built estate or not, and she doesnt accept? TAKE HER OFF THE LIST.

The_Conductor

Aka Ishur wrote: »

Why on earth do they get a say? If a single mum is offered a house anywhere in the vicinity of where she applied, half built estate or not, and she doesnt accept? TAKE HER OFF THE LIST.

Ireland differs from France/Germany/The US etc- in the rights of the few override the rights of the many. The social wants of a few- are given far greater weighting than those of society in general.........

Its bizarre, but true.

RollYerOwn

the_syco wrote: »

For working 39 hours a week, we who work get paid on average €100 more than those on the dole.

I presume you are describing people on minimum wage - if you feel that you would be better off, like those so many hundreds of thousands of people who are already, on the dole, then would it be so difficult to lose your job in a way that you could take the enormous benefits you are currently not getting? Try it first maybe.

Having said that I agree it that there is little incentive, once you have lost your job, to work a sh)t job for little more money than you can get on the dole. But once your pride has gone out of the window, once you are desperate to be able to afford just a few pints at the weekend or be able to pay the bills, and once you want your life to go somewhere - anywhere - other than nowhere, then the thought of any job is good - just to be able to have something to do with your time.

If social welfare shouldn't be used to house people - then what's the point in having social welfare?

Idbatterim

the rent allowance should be cut more, it is keeping an artificial ceiling on prices. Remember one of the main reasons for our loss of competitiveness was paying ridiculous wages to pay ridiculous rents and mortgages. I hope another whack is taken off in the December budget, if landlords have big mortgages to pay or expect average Joe taxpayer to keep them in some standard of living that they feel entitled to, they need a reality check.

RollYerOwn

Idbatterim wrote: »

the rent allowance should be cut more, it is keeping an artificial ceiling on prices. Remember one of the main reasons for our loss of competitiveness was paying ridiculous wages to pay ridiculous rents and mortgages. I hope another whack is taken off in the December budget, if landlords have big mortgages to pay or expect average Joe taxpayer to keep them in some standard of living that they feel entitled to, they need a reality check.

Maybe in your area.

I thought it was paying ridiculous wages to pay ridiculous credit buys like new cars and overpriced properties. If we are to look at why Ireland is in a different position to other countries in our corner of the world, then we should look at why Ireland has behaved differently. I think that Ireland buying more new cars per capita per year and having a fixation on owning instead of renting are two important reasons why we're in this mess.

I don't think that rents here form any more of a percentage of people's expenses based on income than they do in other countries. What is different is the other costs of living like food. Oh and the fact that we pay little tax for very few and very insufficient services.

gurramok

smccarrick wrote: »

With respect of rentallowance- its already been chopped twice, and is due a further significant chop in December's budget- possibly in the 20-25% region (its one of the proposals at the moment). Rents have fallen, in line with previous reductions in rent allowance- there is no reason to believe that this will not continue to be the case........

Just on this part, they cut it for outside the major urban centres recently but more or less left it alone in the cities. Asking 800-1000 for a liveable 1bed is still the norm which as we know is still outrageous.

I've noticed rents in the cities are becoming a bit sticky at 800 quid for the decent cheapest on the northside of Dublin due to Rent Supplement holding them up. If they do reduce it by 20-25% in the next budget, that 1bed should fall to around 500quid and thats approaching sensibility.

gurramok

RollYerOwn wrote: »

I don't think that rents here form any more of a percentage of people's expenses based on income than they do in other countries. What is different is the other costs of living like food. Oh and the fact that we pay little tax for very few and very insufficient services.

You have to remember that Irish rents to make them affordable are based on people sharing. How many people rent an apt on their own? Not many I'd hazard a guess with asking of 800-1000 in the cities(i do though!)

A singleton who has a job and paying that 800-1000 rent will get half that in Rent Supplement when they lose their job and that gets NOTHING in Dublin at that allowance. Only solution is to share accommodation and that leads to exploitation by a greedy LL where most have prejudged what RS seekers are like.
Hence for a singleton, only solution is to buy as the system encourages you to buy, lets look at the following example:

Singleton who rents at 900 per month saves maybe 50k for a deposit over the years for a gaff.(prudent). Then she loses her job and ends up seeking RS for a place to live. She will be entitled to way less than 500 quid as she has savings hence no accommodation unless she seeks sharing and thats a fight as her savings militate against her entitlements.

To avoid the above scenario, the only solution is to buy a gaff somewhere before she loses her job. In that way she will not be penalised for having savings(they were sunk into property) and she will be entitled to Mortgage Interest Relief and still retain her place of residence for at least a year. Thats based on a recent buyer where mortgages can be up to half the expenditure per month in comparison to renting.