Labour the most popular party

PeterIanStaker

T runner wrote: »

Concluding that this mess is here because we are Irish and unfit to govern ourselves is illogical and defeatist no matter who peddles it.

Unfortunately, this illogical defeatist sh!te seems to sell copy:rolleyes:

T runner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So FF's shenannigans are causing a cancer which - I'm sorry to say - is infecting even my sense of fairness and ethics....out of pure frustration and disgust.

So people are now blaming Fianna Fail for their own unethical and unfair behaviour. LOL!

yoshytoshy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I mean, I've survived the last 10 years by wanting a fair wage for a decent day's work - no rip-off, and no stroke-pulling - but at this stage when I see useless people getting more in expenses in a year than I get in wages, I have to ask myself why I bother.

So FF's shenannigans are causing a cancer which - I'm sorry to say - is infecting even my sense of fairness and ethics....out of pure frustration and disgust.

It's demoralising having to put up with the ****e that ff are throwning at us on a daily basis.
I tried my best to maintain an honest ,constructive attitude on the forum here ,but as months have gone by it's been erroded to anxt.

T runner

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

If anything, this recession has showed us that we are not. A sizable proportion of the country voted for FF, a party that was pursing ridiculous economic policies that were bound to end in catastrophe. Of the reminder, most voted for FG and Labour, who were offering much the same thing. In the end, the electorate did not vote with economic reality in mind. They only appeared to vote for those who offered them spending increases and tax cuts.

Im sorry but the vast majority of the ballot papers were taken up with FF, FG and Labour in that order. You seem to be assuming that the electorate had a blank canvas to chose from. There was 20% publican candidates, 20% publican TDs. 14% women candidates, All were elected in similar proprtions. You cant vote for parties/candidates that simply arent there.

Saying you get the government you deserve sounds wise but is not always true.


The problem is the quality of the names/parties on the ballot paper and the systems that brought them there.

Our system also ensures the "parish pump" TDs. These are there becuase of the system, because you need to take care of local matters primarily to get elected to a national parliament.

With this type of system you will have "parish pump" style MPs no matter what the country. Its not because we are a particular nationality that things turn out this way...It is a direct result of this type of system.

But Irish people have systematically and blatantly ignored this. And with Labour planning to keep spending static in a demoralized economy without announcing plans to raise tax, I fear that this tendency to ignore economics is still alive and kicking.

Many other citizens of many other western countries have also ignored this principle in exactly the same way as Irish citizens have.

banquo

My sig worked!

BluntGuy

Het-Field wrote: »

Unless Lenihan takes over, there is little there to replace him. I think FF are in huge trouble before the next election, and this will manifest itself in heavy losses in the city, only mitiigated by the rural vote holding up.

I have no idea why Lenihan is so popular, he's an absymal minister for finance. Both Richard Bruton and Joan Burton would wipe the floor with him in any kind of real debate. And neither of them are particularly brilliant.

But yeah, I hardly see many appealing candidates to replace him either. I'd love to believe FF are in "huge trouble" but the fact is a staggering 25% of the nation still gave them their vote in the locals. So I'm pessimistic about the hopes of any FF "meltdown".

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hallelujajordan

hallelujajordan wrote: »

A general election in 2012 with new leadership in both FF and FG will see Labour back where they belong in third place.

eh the place where FF belong is last :mad:

BluntGuy

BluntGuy wrote: »

I have no idea why Lenihan is so popular, he's an absymal minister for finance. Both Richard Bruton and Joan Burton would wipe the floor with him in any kind of real debate. And neither of them are particularly brilliant.

+1 Lenihan is a disaster, banking guarantee, NAMA, going back on cut backs, making cuts in capital expenditure more than current. Ruining the future. A prize bollox so he is.

Dr. Baltar

I'm quite happy about the news of Labour being number one for their social policies. However, economically, I would much rather a right winged party.

Where are the PDs when we need them?

yahoo_moe

banquo wrote: »

My sig worked!

And now it seems to have disappeared... wonder what'll happen to Labour's 30%+ rating?

yahoo_moe

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

A sizable proportion of the country voted for FF, a party that was pursing ridiculous economic policies that were bound to end in catastrophe. Of the reminder, most voted for FG and Labour, who were offering much the same thing. In the end, the electorate did not vote with economic reality in mind.

Who was left to vote for then?

I don't remember any particularly austere proposals at the last general election, particularly not on a nationwide basis.

Eliot Rosewater

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Who was left to vote for then?

I don't remember any particularly austere proposals at the last general election, particularly not on a nationwide basis.

Indeed, I accept that point. However if there was a strong public demand for fiscal responsibility, Fine Gael would probably have positioned themselves there, or a new party might have emerged. I think there definitely was a cultural ignorance of economic necessity.

yahoo_moe wrote: »

And now it seems to have disappeared... wonder what'll happen to Labour's 30%+ rating?

When you log in all the sigs disappear!

BlaasForRafa

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Who was left to vote for then?

I don't remember any particularly austere proposals at the last general election, particularly not on a nationwide basis.

I want to see Fianna Fail out but Labour aren't going to do anything concrete about dealing with public spending and especially about public servants wages and pensions. Gilmore et al won't have the balls to stare down the unions, especially since they are funded by them.

bored and fussy

Labour are a joke they are in fact a sick joke. they are pretending they have all the answers without any pain and there are people who believe them.
God help us all.

http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/7.html
Check it out!

oh yeah and they hire people under the WPP scheme.
http://www.labour.ie/recruit

Champagne Socialists

Sand

@dlopfnep

Considering your post was even less insightful, I find that a little bit hypocritical.

What? Serioulsly what? You talked ****e, i refuse to waste my time on ****e...what? You think its useful to waste my time on your bollocks?

@taxipete

Read my post on what was contained in the motion itself. You see it sometimes pays to look for something yourself instead of just taking a journos word for it.

Labour scares economic liberals and without any real justifacation. Labours record is very favourable to the business community( without which we aint getting out of this hole)

Labour scares economic liberals because its a pathetically populist party where theres a mystical rich untaxed monster constituency which will make up the missing 20 billion.

In reality world, Gilmore and Burtons whining runs up against something called .... Reality.

Labour has an idealogical issue with employers....employers by definition are capitalist, non unnionist scum, practically on par with Michael O Leary.

I think we could end up with a FF/LAB government. LAB and Gilmore are practically inseperable from FF and Bertie Ahern. We like to think Irish people have learned, but have we?

Labour, Gilmore, Fianna Fail, Cowen.... its a perfect match at the end of the day. Isnt it?

Dob74

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I'm quite happy about the news of Labour being number one for their social policies. However, economically, I would much rather a right winged party.

Where are the PDs when we need them?[/QUOTE]


Voted out of existance.

But dont worry there neo-liberal failed policies live on in FF & FG.
And that's why Labour are number one.

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

+1 Lenihan is a disaster, banking guarantee, NAMA, going back on cut backs, making cuts in capital expenditure more than current. Ruining the future. A prize bollox so he is.

Seriously, its comments like that that scare the hell out of me because I know there are hundreds of thousands of people that believe the same . . A majority of people agree with alot of what David McWilliams says ! He is simply the Jordan of economics, a media whore that can appeal to the masses but in the end is full of hot air. .

Most economists (that arent just looking to pander to the likes of labor followers) think that with regards to the guarantee and NAMA, that FF got it more right then wrong . .

The only question on the banking guarantee is all about the subordinated loans, not the guarantee itself. Regarding NAMA, the alternative was to nationalise the banks or let them go under which a majority of respected economists completely disagreed with, but good old idiots labor felt it would be simple.

Cuts HAD to be made in capital expenditure. Do you not understand we just dont have the money and we have to pay more to get a loan ? Or do you actually believe any of the rhetoric that the opposition comes out with ?

I imagine you are one of the "new labor" followers . . This country will collapse into anarchy if Labor become the biggest party and take control of our economic policy. The ONLY people who will be happy will be the public servants who were happy to be Bought by FF in the good times (and are now looking to dissasociate themselves as much from them, it wasnt just the builders whom FF were courting in the good times!) . .

I will get accused of being an FF symapthiser/supporter, Im not. Im a realist and think that some of the stuff written on these boards shows that many of the electorate have learned nothing (support whoever promises the most!). Particularly, throwout comments like Bruton or Burton would be vastly superior Ministers for finance ! This is based on what ? Ah yes, throwing stones at the government and as an opposition party, your job is to simply latch onto whatever is popular and bash it at those in power (irrespective of the rationality of the argument).

Lenihan is widely respected, even by non FF, because everybody knows that he took the job and was thrust into a Sh^tstorm that he had little to do with. He was slow at the start but really grew in stature. No finance minister will get it right all the time, but he has been stern, quicker to make the tough calls and decisive most of the times. He hasnt been afraid to make tough calls (a serious question mark over Labor).

Having the knowledge to do a job is one thing, we desperatly need a finance minister and taoiseach who will lead with confidence. While Bruton would have the best CV, who here has confidence in Kenny to lead ?

BluntGuy

Drumpot wrote: »

This country will collapse into anarchy if Labor become the biggest party and take control of our economic policy.

Yeaaaaaaaaaah, kinda hypocritical for you to accuse others of making "throwout" comments after this.

Particularly, throwout comments like Bruton or Burton would be vastly superior Ministers for finance ! This is based on what ? Ah yes, throwing stones at the government and as an opposition party, your job is to simply latch onto whatever is popular and bash it at those in power (irrespective of the rationality of the argument).

Or maybe it's because when Bruton and Burton discuss finance they (generally) make clear, coherent points as opposed Lenihan's consistent rhetoric about "no alternatives" and "tough decisions" along with his assortment of pseudo-intelligent economic catchphrases.

Lenihan is widely respected, even by non FF, because everybody knows that he took the job and was thrust into a Sh^tstorm that he had little to do with. He was slow at the start but really grew in stature. No finance minister will get it right all the time, but he has been stern, quicker to make the tough calls and decisive most of the times. He hasnt been afraid to make tough calls (a serious question mark over Labor).

Lenihan has called it wrong every single time though. First he told us NAMA would make a profit, then he told us it break even, then he told us he couldn't impose a levy as it would compromise the NAMA bill, then he magically u-turned and said a levy would be imposed, the numbers required to bailout Anglo has just been a lucky dip farce from week to week (I understand this can't all be attributed to him, but as minister he must take ultimate responsibility), he cuts public sector pay but does nothing about making excess staff redundant, instead we get a vague, waffley Croke Park "deal" which benefits absolutely nobody and a recruitment embargo which is damaging vital services instead of tackling waste, he lost us millions by increasing VAT back in 2008, the bank garuntee (again, not all his fault, but he's at the helm of the finance department) etc. He is utterly talentless when it comes economic management. The only talent he seems to possess is giving the illusion he knows what he's on about, which our lazy media (particularly RTE) then lap up, when the disastrous decisions he's taken thus far have proven otherwise.

That said, Lenihan is probably one of the best in the current batch of ministers, which only serves to prove how atrocious the current cabinet truly is.

Having the knowledge to do a job is one thing, we desperatly need a finance minister and taoiseach who will lead with confidence. While Bruton would have the best CV, who here has confidence in Kenny to lead ?

I have more confidence in Kenny than Brian Cowen. He might have the TV personality of a cardboard box, but unlike Cowen he didn't oversee the destruction of our nation's economy. What we desperately need is a Finance Minister, a Cabinet, with some actual talent. Both FG and Labour have frontbenchers who far outclass the current FF shower.

Nodin

Drumpot wrote: »

I imagine you are one of the "new labor" followers . . This country will collapse into anarchy if Labor become the biggest party and take control of our economic policy.

Well, on the one hand I am glad to see hysteria aimed at more than the usual suspects, but.....

Drumpot

BluntGuy wrote: »

Yeaaaaaaaaaah, kinda hypocritical for you to accuse others of making "throwout" comments after this.



Or maybe it's because when Bruton and Burton discuss finance they (generally) make clear, coherent points as opposed Lenihan's consistent rhetoric about "no alternatives" and "tough decisions" along with his assortment of pseudo-intelligent economic catchphrases.



Lenihan has called it wrong every single time though. First he told us NAMA would make a profit, then he told us it break even, then he told us he couldn't impose a levy as it would compromise the NAMA bill, then he magically u-turned and said a levy would be imposed, the numbers required to bailout Anglo has just been a lucky dip farce from week to week (I understand this can't all be attributed to him, but as minister he must take ultimate responsibility), he cuts public sector pay but does nothing about making excess staff redundant, instead we get a vague, waffley Croke Park "deal" which benefits absolutely nobody and a recruitment embargo which is damaging vital services instead of tackling waste, he lost us millions by increasing VAT back in 2008, the bank garuntee (again, not all his fault, but he's at the helm of the finance department) etc. He is utterly talentless when it comes economic management. The only talent he seems to possess is giving the illusion he knows what he's on about, which our lazy media (particularly RTE) then lap up, when the disastrous decisions he's taken thus far have proven otherwise.

That said, Lenihan is probably one of the best in the current batch of ministers, which only serves to prove how atrocious the current cabinet truly is.



I have more confidence in Kenny than Brian Cowen. He might have the TV personality of a cardboard box, but unlike Cowen he didn't oversee the destruction of our nation's economy. What we desperately need is a Finance Minister, a Cabinet, with some actual talent. Both FG and Labour have frontbenchers who far outclass the current FF shower.

OK . .. Will labor support or revers the croke park agreement ? Where will they make the cuts required ? How many things are they sitting on the fence at the moment ? That is why our country WILL collapse. If we have a government that procrastinates over everything and trys to please everybody. Say what you want about FF but in the last year they have made tough decisions, rightly or wrongly. Labor arent even in power and they cannot decide where they stand . . That isnt even a throwout comment, its common sense. I was on the frontline a couple of weeks ago and howlin was there saying how labor have already earmarked the cuts that are required. . When pushed he couldnt actually elaborate on where those cuts actually were, he had some document which he reffered to and when Kenny pushed him, he opened it and made broad stroke comments like "300million in education" or something like that but he couldnt actually say how he would make the savings (in truth everybody agreed he talked himself into trouble!). . Labor are all style and no substance. . Exactly what Bertie Led FF were and look at where we are now . . Voting in a party with NO PLAN is not only not learning from your mistakes, its consigning yourself to even more hardship.

Your comments on Lenihan are way off and sound like opposition waffle with little substance. In truth it reflects how little you understand regarding the running of a country. I wont pretend to have all the knowledge in the world but since he has been the minister for finance he has had to deal with more then ANY otherr finance minister in the history of the state. Not only that, he has been putting out fires for the guts of 2 years and if you do your homework its easy to see how some mistakes were made and why certain things that were said have turned out to be incorrect. The banks lied to us all . Were FG or Lab in power, they would of been lied to aswell, there would be little they could do . . Lets not also forget that the opposition parties voted for the bank guarantee .

Lenihan called it wrong everytime eh ? Why are we regarded highly abroad in relation to how we have tried to dig ourselves out of this collapse ? You see, the irish media know little, if not nothing with regards to how the Irish Economy performs as its usually badly educated journalism that educates the masses. If you want to know how good or bad Ireland is really doing you need only look at foreign press/journalism as they can take a more impartial view (instead of populist government/bank bashing).

How do you feel about your precious other ministers (bruton and Burton) who were demanding more spending during the boom years ? Or is it just that they didnt get a chance to dig us into a deeper hole, something that we should gloss over ? Please do enlighten me how these "superior" financial experts were so wrong . .

Then you say you have more confidence in Kenny because . . Hes not Cowan . . Thanks for that, sort of confirms my whole argument (that you are one of thousands of people who just want a change for the SAKE of change). . I want a change aswell, but believe that by assuming (which is exactly what you do, little evidence to back up your random talk up of opposition party) that the other crowd will be better, simply because they arent the current one ! ! !

Its hip to say "Feck FF" and "they are useless", its not popular to say that they have screwed us, but have done a decent job since the whole economy collapsed. In truth that is exactly what they have done and the comments of the opposition party have left me doubting them even further. Instead of showing leadership (which is what we need), we get a guy who can rant about FF brilliantly but has no substance or clearly laid out plan on what he will do in office, and a lame fish who's partys popularity has just about remained the same even though the countrys biggest party has collapsed . . You can have your "this is as good as it gets" partys . .

Drumpot

Nodin wrote: »

Well, on the one hand I am glad to see hysteria aimed at more than the usual suspects, but.....

they need to be properly analysed as they have gotten off lightly so far . . They really have little substance and sit on the fence on pretty much everything . . Right now, we need a government that makes decisions, unpopular ones, for the greater good and I dont believe for a second Gilemore has the stones to do that . . It will be like the public service partnership all over again, only worse and everybody else will pay for it . . Gilemore has shown NO ability to make tough decisions. if you look at ANY of his rallys or comments, they never commit to anything tough . .

Cowan is a bitter pill to accept, Im disgusted he hasnt stepped down but Im not so sure an election would be the best thing for this country right now. . We are unstable enough as it is and things seem to be slowly moving in the right direction (retail sales, unemployment leveling off). Maybe in a year or so whenthings have settled down nationally and internationally, then we have an election.

there is also my fear that people just vote in anybody but FF, which will definitely lead to clowns getting into the dail. . We need to grow up as a nation and not accept second best just because we are pissed off with the current shower . . We need to demand more from our TDs, from our government . .. The kind of attitudes I see and hear by many, while understandable, is irrational and can lead to making more mistakes . . The best time to make big decisions is after you have calmed down and thought about what happened and why . .

In truth the country being screwed is just as much down to the electorate as it is the politicians, the builders, the bankers etc . . Accepting that and then saying "I want better", "I want politicians with principles and long term strategies" (not just 5 year ones) is a start . . .

I dont promote FF, I am just trying to get people to think rationally, instead of just assuming that the opposition (who have no more credibility then FF IMO) will be better or really differant.

So we are stuck in a rut . . Vote for the clowns that have us in this mess, or the clowns that can only tell us that they wouldnt of made the same mistakes (contrary to what they said in opposition when FF were squandering our gold!). . I know, its not easy, but when your local TD comes to the door, sock it to them . . we should be angry that our opposition didnt offer us the alternative, or give us the confidence to vote them in last time around . . What does that say about them ? Just ask more of your politcian. While its ok to want things for yourself, try and think of the country aswell . .

yahoo_moe

BluntGuy wrote: »

I have more confidence in Kenny than Brian Cowen. He might have the TV personality of a cardboard box, but unlike Cowen he didn't oversee the destruction of our nation's economy. What we desperately need is a Finance Minister, a Cabinet, with some actual talent.

In fairness, Cowen's not exactly a made-for-TV leader either - he's definitely substance rather than style.

the groutch

surprised that independents & others are unchanged, last year's local election results suggested a possible swing in that direction

yosemite_sam

whatawaster wrote: »

Fine Gael need to get rid of Enda Kenny quickly, or they could throw away the next election.

This

T runner

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Indeed, I accept that point. However if there was a strong public demand for fiscal responsibility, Fine Gael would probably have positioned themselves there, or a new party might have emerged. I think there definitely was a cultural ignorance of economic necessity.

Again, there wasnt a "culture of economic necessity" in the majority of western countries including the United States.

Also the "experts" told us that the honey would keep coming in 2007. It is hardly surprising that people did not feel the need to demand a party advocating a fiscally conservative budget.

Again little to do with a specific Irish culture.

thebman

T runner wrote: »

Again, there wasnt a "culture of economic necessity" in the majority of western countries including the United States.

Also the "experts" told us that the honey would keep coming in 2007. It is hardly surprising that people did not feel the need to demand a party advocating a fiscally conservative budget.

Again little to do with a specific Irish culture.

Only the invested interest experts, there were plenty of real experts trying to warn for years but nobody listened to them.

The Irish were no different to any other country. They believed the people that were telling them what they wanted ot hear.

thetonynator

yahoo_moe wrote: »

In fairness, Cowen's not exactly a made-for-TV leader either - he's definitely substance rather than style.

What substance???

Sleepy

T runner wrote: »

I really can't abide this loser racist attitude that says because we are Irish we cant do anything right. Speak for yourself!

Do you feel Irish people are racially inferior? Culturally inferior perhaps?

The Irish people are well capable of governing ourselves.

We still live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

The structures we have are completely out of date, however. Labour have some radical ideas for changing those structures.

Perhaps you feel Ireland will prove its ability to govern itself by voting for FG?

Racist? LOL, you just can't wait to brand anyone that disagrees with you with whatever shock label you can apply to them, can you? It's nothign to do with race, though our culture which sneers at academic learning and evangelises cute-whorism certainly plays it's part.

The vast majority of the Irish population have no understanding of, or interest in, basic economics. They want lower taxes, higher welfare and improved services and have no comprehension of the fact that these are mutually exclusive aims.

So, imho, they need to be governed rather than let govern themselves.

I'd be happy to see this done through either some meritocracy based system where only those with the intelligence and education to understand what they're voting for are given a vote (where the necessary instruction and examination to attain that vote is available to all) or via some form of corporate 'benevolant dictator' where we hire a CEO to lead the country where their remuneration for the position is tied to the long term performance of the state.

Ireland would prove it's ability to govern itself by demanding standards from it's elected officials, by stripping the pensions from and shunning those holders of public office found to be corrupt instead of re-electing the likes of Michael Lowry or Beverley Cooper Flynn. In the current climate, we should be telling our elected officials not to waiver in the face of union opposition to the necessary re-calibration (or bench-marking) of Public Sector remuneration packages and the vast overhauls required in most of institutions which provide these public services.

Instead the opinion polls (and every election in the past decade) are telling our governemnt that we want them to spend borrowed money with no regard for how we're going to pay it back.

At present, tbh, I'd see FG as the least worst option. They're far from perfect but they're not as corrupt as FF, not as ignorant to reality as Labour and not in the pockets of the unions as either of the others are. In the absence of a better option (which will never be allowed to develop whilst we have the out-dated structures you refer to - and I wholeheartedly agree with you on), I don't see any other rational option for the Irish people. (Not liking Enda Kenny not being a rational reason to discount the party).

invinciblePRSTV

donegalfella wrote: »

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Any party who wins power in 2012 will have to raise personal taxes and cut welfare, Labour won't be any different i wager. It's no surprise the public have moved their support to Labour given both parties of the right venomous attacks on the public sector to make political hay.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Pure hyperbole based on a false premise, Of course if you had any cop on you'd know that our low corporation tax rate was originally set by a Labour MoF, and that Labour have promised to keep it low as part of their economic recovery document.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Agreed - Labour didn't cause this.

donegalfella wrote: »

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More hyperbole based on a false premise.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Whilst in Switzerland you can say hi to Irish Labours Sister Party which is the second largest party in Government over there.