Finally, Saville report issued.

Morlar

Here is the report - interesting reading so far.

http://report.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/volume01/

My name is URL

Some of the reactions to this on the ARRSE Forum are hideous. I know it's a fairly biased sample of people but the fact that serving soldiers are defending the actions of those involved in the killing of innocent people doesn't bode well for any hopes that shit like this can be avoided in future. Some of the cnuts are even verbally attacking the families of people who lost loved ones

owenc

Yes, but no soilders will be arrested.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

That would be Colonel Wilford, who was awared an OBE for his work in Derry.

He was awarded an OBE for his long service. What happened in Derry had nothing to do with it. Your version is the one given as an excuse for murdering three innocent people in Donegal.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He was awarded an OBE for his long service. What happened in Derry had nothing to do with it..

Evidence please?

In either case, he should not have been awarded an OBE.

3.19: "Colonel Wilford either deliberately disobeyed Brigadier MacLellan's order or failed for no good reason to appreciate the clear limits on what he had been authorised to do. He was disturbed by the delay in responding to his request to mount an arrest operation and had concluded that, by reason of the delay, the only way to effect a significant number of arrests was to deploy Support Company in vehicles into the Bogside."

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Your version is the one given as an excuse for murdering three innocent people in Donegal.

It isn't my "version". He received the OBE only months after Bloody Sunday. Timely coincidence, or an award to show the soldiers that the British Government backed them.

Interesting that we're discussing this, and not the elephant in the room. Just an observation.

RachPie

Can't believe it took this long for that to happen! Justice at last.

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

Yes, but no soilders will be arrested.

Would it upset you if they were?

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

Would it upset you if they were?

Well, i think they should be as according to those people on bbc news the people they shot were innocent. Why, do you think i wouldn't want them to be arrested just because they were british.

admiralofthefleet

what i find sickening is that on the day when the families of the 14 people were finally told their loved ones were innocent the british queen was enjoying a day at the races in ascot, she should be ashamed of herself

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

Well, i think they should be as according to those people on bbc news the people they shot were innocent. Why, do you think i wouldn't want them to be arrested just because they were british.

I didn't assume anything. I was merely asking for your opinion.

GAAman

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

what i find sickening is that on the day when the families of the 14 people were finally told their loved ones were innocent the british queen was enjoying a day at the races in ascot, she should be ashamed of herself

Indefensible and Unjustifiable

Says it all for me

My God the feeling when the result was read aloud in the guildhall square today, i was there having marched the route that was supposed to have been marched. I spoke to a man today who fought back tears to tell me of his experience on bloody sunday, we passed where he was saturated by the water cannons, then walked on to where the initial shots rang out, to where murders took place. I am not ashamed to say i got a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye listening to him. I was also stood beside him and helped hold him up when the big screen broadcasted the live sky news feed and the result was almost overwhelming for him.

He wept as he told me "I never thought i would live to see the day" having heard that the "soldiers" essentially murdered innocent people

Powerful stuff altogether

I will be putting up pics and the video of the guildhall later on this evening

owenc

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

what i find sickening is that on the day when the families of the 14 people were finally told their loved ones were innocent the british queen was enjoying a day at the races in ascot, she should be ashamed of herself

Get overyourself ( no offence), the queen is an 80 year old woman, why should she waste her life worrying about people who have died, i think thats really stupid, plus, what was the point in this stupid investigation, it was a waste of £200 million pounds which could've been used to do something else... it really was, there were no investigations for the 3000 people killed in the troubles or any other day in that period so why should their be a need for this one. Such a waste of money, i'm actually quite angry at that, we could've got something else done with that money that would be suitable for the WHOLE of Northern Irelands population.

ejmaztec

owenc wrote: »

Well, i think they should be as according to those people on bbc news the people they shot were innocent. Why, do you think i wouldn't want them to be arrested just because they were british.

Weren't the victims also British, in the eyes of the law?

owenc

ejmaztec wrote: »

Weren't the victims also British, in the eyes of the law?

Depending on what they wanted to be called , but if you go by birth certificate yes.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Evidence please?

In either case, he should not have been awarded an OBE.

It isn't my "version". He received the OBE only months after Bloody Sunday. Timely coincidence, or an award to show the soldiers that the British Government backed them.

Interesting that we're discussing this, and not the elephant in the room. Just an observation.

What's to discuss that hasn't already been said? I'm not a big fan of David Cameron, but I thought his apology was on the nail. Now we have to wait and see what happens to the soldiers, but I've commented enough on that over in Politics.

It would be good if you stuck to the facts though, no OBE's were given out for what happened in Derry.

Fratton Fred

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

what i find sickening is that on the day when the families of the 14 people were finally told their loved ones were innocent the british queen was enjoying a day at the races in ascot, she should be ashamed of herself

Where was the President today?

The Queen is not political, she does not get involved in political debates or discussion. That's why we have a Prime Minister, to run the country.

gurramok

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It would be good if you stuck to the facts though, no OBE's were given out for what happened in Derry.

You had said it was given for long service. He was just a junior officer in 1972 when he received the OBE.?

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

You had said it was given for long service. He was just a junior officer in 1972 when he received the OBE.?

He was a Lieutenant Colonel was he not? not exactly junior.

gurramok

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He was a Lieutenant Colonel was he not? not exactly junior.

An OBE awarded 6 months after Bloody Sunday. The senior officers above him knew he made a serious fatal mistake and yet he was awarded the OBE.

Do you think he should surrender the OBE as his holding of it stains that British institution?

It wasn't me!

owenc wrote: »

Get overyourself ( no offence), the queen is an 80 year old woman, why should she waste her life worrying about people who have died, i think thats really stupid, plus, what was the point in this stupid investigation, it was a waste of £200 million pounds which could've been used to do something else... it really was, there were no investigations for the 3000 people killed in the troubles or any other day in that period so why should their be a need for this one. Such a waste of money, i'm actually quite angry at that, we could've got something else done with that money that would be suitable for the WHOLE of Northern Irelands population.

Seriously? I'm a proud supporter of the British Army as an institution and I'm absolutely ambivalent on the nationalist/loyalist issue, really couldn't give a toss, but you question why it was important to investigate? That really is ignorant. Probably the best £200 million spent in the last twenty years by that government. And frankly, any time civilians are killed, there should be investigation, and plenty of times it won't be a criminal action, but where it is, such as here, there should be prosecutions. Anything else is just wrong and foul.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

An OBE awarded 6 months after Bloody Sunday. The senior officers above him knew he made a serious fatal mistake and yet he was awarded the OBE.

Do you think he should surrender the OBE as his holding of it stains that British institution?

Yeah, I do actually.

His senior officers may have known what he did, but they didn't get him an OBE for what happened in Derry. That is just an excuse used for the murder of three innocent people and TBH, a pretty ****ty excuse at that.

owenc

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Seriously? I'm a proud supporter of the British Army as an institution and I'm absolutely ambivalent on the nationalist/loyalist issue, really couldn't give a toss, but you question why it was important to investigate? That really is ignorant. Probably the best £200 million spent in the last twenty years by that government. And frankly, any time civilians are killed, there should be investigation, and plenty of times it won't be a criminal action, but where it is, such as here, there should be prosecutions. Anything else is just wrong and foul.

Well then, do you suggest that they go and spend more pointless money on the investigations of the deaths of the other 3000 people.

gurramok

owenc wrote: »

Well then, do you suggest that they go and spend more pointless money on the investigations of the deaths of the other 3000 people.

Eh they are. Ever hear of HET?

It wasn't me!

owenc wrote: »

Well then, do you suggest that they go and spend more pointless money on the investigations of the deaths of the other 3000 people.

Yep, and they already are, as gurramok says. It's not pointless, unless of course you think we shouldn't pay a police force to investigate murders and a judiciary to try and punish the offenders. Do you think that a legal system is a good idea?

owenc

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yep, and they already are, as gurramok says. It's not pointless, unless of course you think we shouldn't pay a police force to investigate murders and a judiciary to try and punish the offenders. Do you think that a legal system is a good idea?

Why do you think that they should be wasting that money on stupid investigations which the majority of people don't care about whenever they could be using that money for better things like roads, shops etc..

It wasn't me!

owenc wrote: »

Why do you think that they should be wasting that money on stupid investigations which the majority of people don't care about whenever they could be using that money for better things like roads, shops etc..

Please do the following two things:

1. Answer the question I asked you.

2. Cite a source for your assertion that the majority of people don't care about investigations like this. Given how astronomically huge the Saville Report was and how much news it generated, I think you're going to be pushed here.

GAAman

owenc wrote: »

Why do you think that they should be wasting that money on stupid investigations which the majority of people don't care about whenever they could be using that money for better things like roads, shops etc..

The majority? Eh there were around ten thousand people there today, now i have always been shíte at maths but i think your opinion against ten thousand doesnt make you the majority :rolleyes:

owenc wrote: »

Why do you think that they should be wasting that money on stupid investigations which the majority of people don't care about whenever they could be using that money for better things like roads, shops etc..

Actually upon reflection lads, dont feed the troll

owenc

GAAman wrote: »

Actually upon reflection lads, dont feed the troll

I'm sorry? Just because i don't agree with you!:rolleyes:

GAAman

owenc wrote: »

I'm sorry? Just because i don't agree with you!:rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes until they roll out of your head

You have made several inflammatory comments here in what i can only describe as a troll-esque manner, insisting that the majority did not want such amounts spent on finding out who killed who where and why because it did not matter. Well just because it does not matter to one person in colraine named owen :rolleyes: does not mean nobody cared.

It was emphatically proven today that the majority cared, not only the people of Derry but much farther afield as evident by the huge amounts of european, asian and american news crews.

That enough for you or would you like some more?

karma_

owenc wrote: »

I'm sorry? Just because i don't agree with you!:rolleyes:

Your starting to sound like Gregory Campbell now there owen.

Being so close to Derry you of all people should recognise the hurt those people have had to endure for 38 years.

To have your family killed then labelled as being terrorists, what if that was a member of your family, how would you feel then? would it still be a pointless investigation?

The big difference about Bloody Sunday was it was carried out by the forces of Law & Order, by the very people who should have been there to protect the citizens of Derry and they turned on them instead, then it was whitewashed because the military didn't want to look bad.

The people of Derry deserved this news today, they can finally get closure not just because their loved ones were taken but because their name was blackened on top of it.

About the cost, what price the truth?

It wasn't me!

Fear not. He has no intention of answering questions he doesn't like, so no breath-holding necessary.

ejmaztec

owenc wrote: »

Why do you think that they should be wasting that money on stupid investigations which the majority of people don't care about whenever they could be using that money for better things like roads, shops etc..

The Universe couldn't hold a face-palm big enough to cover this post.:eek:

Dudess

The whataboutery from Campbell et al is disgusting. To equate the welcoming of this news to failure to acknowledge republican atrocities is a cheap, nasty shot.... :mad:

Reminds me of when zealous Israel apologists skirt around the excessive use of force by the IDF.

An atrocity is an atrocity is an atrocity - inability to admit it when it has been carried out by your "side" or someone aligned to your "side" is stubborn children territory...

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

The whataboutery from Campbell et al is disgusting. To equate the welcoming of this news to failure to acknowledge republican atrocities is a cheap, nasty shot.... :mad:

Reminds me of when zealous Israel apologists skirt around the excessive use of force by the IDF.

An atrocity is an atrocity is an atrocity - inability to admit it when it has been carried out by your "side" or someone aligned to your "side" is stubborn children territory...

Completely agree.

The difference in this whataboutery is, McGuinness is now in Govt.

Maybe Palestinians will face the same type of questions in 40 years time.

Not just do people have to answer questions about Bloody Sunday, what about Bloody Friday? What genius decided that was a good idea?

Part of the whole problem is, inquiries can be sought for Bloody Sunday, Shoot to Kill etc. and rightly so.

People expect apologies from the current British Govt. for actions 40 years ago. Former IRA members, now members of the NI Govt., don't get that scrutiny.

Dudess

Agreed - there are endless numbers of people who lost loved ones to IRA murders going through their own living nightmares, but for politicians to use that as currency for damning today's outcome and the welcoming of it, is just a low blow.

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

Agreed - there are endless numbers of people who lost loved ones to IRA murders going through their own living nightmares, but for politicians to use that as currency for damning today's outcome and the welcoming of it, is just a low blow.

Oh, you'll get that unfortunately.

Anyway, this isn't the thread for it. I'll bow out now.

It's a thread to remember what happened on that day.

Morlar

K-9 wrote: »

Not just do people have to answer questions about Bloody Sunday, what about Bloody Friday? What genius decided that was a good idea?

The IRA throughout faced lengthy sentences if caught - every act was thoroughly investigated by MI5/6 RUC, Army intelligence, Gardaí etc and many did of course get lenghty sentences from non jury courts or based on supergrass evidence. Not to mention internment without trial torture at castlereagh and so on.

The difference is when the british army killed catholics they got medals from the queen, commendations, awards and an establishment whitewash that in this case stood for 38 yrs giving loyalists propaganda with which to knowingly lie through their teeth about what they knew went on.

m@cc@

owenc wrote: »

there were no investigations for the 3000 people killed in the troubles or any other day in that period so why should their be a need for this one.

Of course there was/is!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7233834.stm

And my friends father was re-questioned a few years ago about his role as a fireman in the aftermath of the Enniskillen bombing.

owenc

K-9 wrote: »

Completely agree.

The difference in this whataboutery is, McGuinness is now in Govt.

Maybe Palestinians will face the same type of questions in 40 years time.

Not just do people have to answer questions about Bloody Sunday, what about Bloody Friday? What genius decided that was a good idea?

Part of the whole problem is, inquiries can be sought for Bloody Sunday, Shoot to Kill etc. and rightly so.

People expect apologies from the current British Govt. for actions 40 years ago. Former IRA members, now members of the NI Govt., don't get that scrutiny.

Yes, but hes deputy first minister, and he is not the man you want in power beleive me now, my dad was a police man and he told me some very bad stories about him and what he did, which i will not say on here.

owenc

Morlar wrote: »

The IRA throughout faced lengthy sentences if caught - every act was thoroughly investigated by MI5/6 RUC, Army intelligence, Gardaí etc and many did of course get lenghty sentences from non jury courts or based on supergrass evidence. Not to mention internment without trial torture at castlereagh and so on.

The difference is when the british army killed catholics they got medals from the queen, commendations, awards and an establishment whitewash that in this case stood for 38 yrs giving loyalists propaganda with which to knowingly lie through their teeth about what they knew went on.

Does it matter who they killed they still killed someone! Frigg sake, i'm not taking loyalist sides!! Just wondering what were they lying about?

m@cc@

owenc wrote: »

Yes, but hes deputy first minister, and he is not the man you want in power beleive me now, my dad was a police man and he told me some very bad stories about him and what he did, which i will not say on here.

I'd sooner have him in parliament and accountable rather than hiding in the shadows.

owenc wrote: »

Does it matter who they killed they still killed someone! Frigg sake, i'm not taking loyalist sides!! Just wondering what were they lying about?

Does it matter that the British army killed Irish Catholics? Is there some part of the Northern Ireland conflict you're not clear about? The question can be asked would the same feroicity have been carried out if the protest had been organised by Unionists?

aDeener

Dudess wrote: »

The whataboutery from Campbell et al is disgusting. To equate the welcoming of this news to failure to acknowledge republican atrocities is a cheap, nasty shot.... :mad:

Reminds me of when zealous Israel apologists skirt around the excessive use of force by the IDF.

An atrocity is an atrocity is an atrocity - inability to admit it when it has been carried out by your "side" or someone aligned to your "side" is stubborn children territory...

they are one and the same in their frame of thinking. dirty bastards

owenc

m@cc@ wrote: »

I'd sooner have him in parliament and accountable rather than hiding in the shadows.

I don't care hes a bad man he was in the IRA!:eek:

owenc

m@cc@ wrote: »

I'd sooner have him in parliament and accountable rather than hiding in the shadows.



Does it matter that the British army killed Irish Catholics? Is there some part of the Northern Ireland conflict you're not clear about? The question can be asked would the same feroicity have been carried out if the protest had been organised by Unionists?

I'm saying that it dosn't matter who was killed they were still killed.

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

I'm saying that it dosn't matter who was killed they were still killed.

Woeful logic.

If someone is killed, it "matters".

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

Woeful logic.

If someone is killed, it "matters".

Yes, but they don't waste £200 million pounds investigating it... i really am very angry with them, wasting my money on that, i really couldn't care less if they gave an investigation, seriously though, if they are doing this they should start investigating every other deaths!! How would you like that! ... plus this is really bad for Northern Ireland, as it may start the troubles again because of one side only getting prosucuted when personally, the other side shot at the british troops.

stovelid

Fantastic news for the stoic families that not only lost their loved ones but also had them posthumously vilified by the British establishment.

The predictable imbecility - and disgusting disrespect for the dead - from the likes of Campbell and Michael Rose is no surprise and should not be allowed to spoil the fact that justice has been done and the dead (and their loved ones) can now be at peace.

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

Yes, but they don't waste £200 million pounds investigating it...

That's what happens when they don't investigate it properly the first time.

owenc wrote: »

i really am very angry with them, wasting my money on that

Since when did you pay tax? Aren't you only 16?

owenc wrote: »

, i really couldn't care less if they gave an investigation, seriously though, if they are doing this they should start investigating every other deaths!! How would you like that! ... plus this is really bad for Northern Ireland, as it may start the troubles again because of one side only getting prosucuted when personally, the other side shot at the british troops.

*sigh*

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

That's what happens when they don't investigate it properly the first time.



Since when did you pay tax? Aren't you only 16?



*sigh*

I will pay tax.. and i am not 16, that rumour is doing my head in, i am near that though , i'm not for telling you .

Morlar

owenc wrote: »

I will pay tax.. and i am not 16, that rumour is doing my head in, i am near that though , i'm not for telling you .

I am not being sarcastic, facetious or trying to be funny but about an hour ago I read one of your posts above and thought to myself 'this guy is a 10 yr old.'