Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

dlofnep

This has already been posted on AH, but I'll post it here.

The long-awaited report into the Bloody Sunday massacre will conclude that a number of the fatal shootings of civilians by British soldiers were unlawful killings, the Guardian has learned.

Lord Saville's 12-year inquiry into the deaths, the longest public inquiry in British legal history, will conclude with a report published next Tuesday, putting severe pressure on the Public Prosecution Service in Northern Ireland to prosecute soldiers.

Lord Trimble, the former leader of the Ulster Unionists and one of the architects of the Good Friday agreement, revealed to the Guardian that when Tony Blair agreed to the inquiry in 1998, he warned the then prime minister that any conclusion that departed "one millimetre" from the earlier 1972 Widgery report into the killings would lead to "soldiers in the dock".

One unionist MP who did not wish to be named described the conclusion of unlawful killings as a "hand-grenade with the pin pulled out that is about to be tossed into the lap of the PPS" in Northern Ireland.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/10/bloody-sunday-inquiry-northern-ireland

It's sad that it's taken nearly 40 years for this report to come out. I will be eager to read it in full, but it looks promising. I would hope that we can remain respectful in this thread, instead of using it as a platform to get into tit for tat tantrums.

hideous ape

Had this came out 12 years ago then sure it would have sparked something but now frankly the entire island has moved on...well 99.9% have moved on and those that haven't aren't the traditional grassroots IRA type. Those that are still committed to violence are not really connected to their communities anymore which is where the IRA's real power came from. Now it's a few nutters with agenda's instead of a terrorist group with the full support and backing of ordinary people. Once that link is broken with the people it crosses over to been a handful of violent nutters rather than a backed movement!

Frankly this will simply confirm what most of us believed already!

No former British soldier or Commander will ever by tried for this.

gurramok

Will the PPS prosecute the soldiers though?

British soldiers are held in high esteem by the British and get away with everything regarding NI affairs. Unless we're in a new era and accountability applies to their wrongful killings?

PomBear

hideous ape wrote: »

Had this came out 12 years ago then sure it would have sparked something but now frankly the entire island has moved on...well 99.9% have moved on and those that haven't aren't the traditional grassroots IRA type. Those that are still committed to violence are not really connected to their communities anymore which is where the IRA's real power came from. Now it's a few nutters with agenda's instead of a terrorist group with the full support and backing of ordinary people. Once that link is broken with the people it crosses over to been a handful of violent nutters rather than a backed movement!

Frankly this will simply confirm what most of us believed already!

No former British soldier or Commander will ever by tried for this.

Moved on from a strategic massacre of innocent civilians who were marching for their civil rights?

It's not that you moved, you don't want to care, like the rest of the 26 counties did at the time and will still do, leave their heads firmly in the sand, well done.

Bloody Sunday had nothing to do with the IRA. Saying that shows your cluelessness.

prinz

Good to see it coming close to a resolution. I'm not sure what the best step forward is though with regards to prosecuting soldiers, when other 'unlawful killers' are out and about walking the streets of Northern Ireland.

May be better just to leave it as a finding of unlawful killing that is there on record for all to see.

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

Good to see it coming close to a resolution. I'm not sure what the best step forward is though with regards to prosecuting soldiers, when other 'unlawful killers' are out and about walking the streets of Northern Ireland.

May be better just to leave it as a finding of unlawful killing that is there on record for all to see.

Those 'unlawful killers' you speak of do not represent a sovereign government and many of them have in fact received long jail times unlike those perpetrators in this case.

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

Those 'unlawful killers' you speak of do not represent a sovereign government and many of them have in fact received long jail times unlike those perpetrators in this case.

I presume you would also apply the same to members of AGS who were involved in the deaths of RUC men?

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

I presume you would also apply the same to members of AGS who were involved in the deaths of RUC men?

Whats this?

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

I presume you would also apply the same to members of AGS who were involved in the deaths of RUC men?

Yes, if they were. News to me though of such occurrences.

Would you apply the same in both instances?

Jaap

What was the cost of this enquiry...something like 200 million pounds...to tell us something we already know.
Maybe we should spend a few more hundreds of million investigating other serious incidents during the troubles such as Bloody Friday...the Enniskillen bomb...massacres carried out by both sides...after all many of people say it was a war!!!
I think we should just be moving on in Northern Ireland...not looking back at incidents 40 years, 30 years or even 20 years ago...as no one is going to be brought before the courts and deservedly jailed!!!
Paramilitaries who have murdered and should be still in jail have been walking the streets for years now...the Shankill bomber Sean Kelly served 7 years for killing 9 people in 1993...released in 2000 under terms of the GFA!!! Loyalist murders of course also got released as well!!!
The decent people of Northern Ireland will never get justice for what went on during the troubles...hence we should all move on and concentrate on the future!!!

prinz

Fuhrer wrote: »

Whats this?

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, if they were. News to me though of such occurrences. Would you apply the same in both instances?

http://www.smithwicktribunal.ie/smithwick/HOMEPAGE.html

He said the tribunal, under Mr Justice Peter Smithwick, was investigating suggestions members of the Garda, or other State employees, colluded in the fatal shootings of RUC chief superintendent Harry Breen and superintendent Robert Buchanan in March 1980.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0514/1224270376593.html

Personally I would. Northern Ireland is moving forward. Lot's of people have had bitter pills to swallow so far as seeing murderers and those involved in planning murders etc walk free.

Japer

Jaap wrote: »

What was the cost of this enquiry...something like 200 million pounds...


...hence we should all move on and concentrate on the future!!!

+1. Who is going to pay back this 200 million sterling , plus interest the British government has borrowed ? A future generation of children. What good does a government borrowing 200 million and giving it to barristers etc do....I think the money could be better spent. Even in this country think of what 200 million could do with healthcare, cancer screening etc if properly spent. People should not be living in the past and spending 200 million trying to investigate what happened on the spur of a moment over 40 years ago. Time to move on and build a better future.

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

http://www.smithwicktribunal.ie/smithwick/HOMEPAGE.html



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0514/1224270376593.html

Personally I would. Northern Ireland is moving forward. Lot's of people have had bitter pills to swallow so far as seeing murderers and those involved in planning murders etc walk free.

Collusion is the same as gunning people down now?


Besides, there are far more cases of RUC & MI6 collusion. This is a case of armed soldiers knowingly gunning down unarmed civilians.

wes

I have to say, I don't see why the cost of the inquiry matters. The cost of justice shouldn't matter imho. Personally, I think there needs to be prosecutions, and that a democratic state should hold itselfs to far higher standards than terrorist groups.

prinz

Fuhrer wrote: »

Collusion is the same as gunning people down now? Besides, there are far more cases of RUC & MI6 collusion. This is a case of armed soldiers knowingly gunning down unarmed civilians.

OK so it only applies when it's the British Army. I see. Conspiracy to commit etc goes out the window.

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

http://www.smithwicktribunal.ie/smithwick/HOMEPAGE.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0514/1224270376593.html

Personally I would. Northern Ireland is moving forward. Lot's of people have had bitter pills to swallow so far as seeing murderers and those involved in planning murders etc walk free.

Good to hear you agree that state armies have to be held accountable to killing civilians. The one you highlight is one instance of alleged Garda 'corruption', we await the outcome and if anyone found culpable should be prosecuted.

The problem here is that the British have killed many unarmed civilians unlike the Irish authorities without accountability so justice in this one case(Bloody Sunday) will help heal matters.

Japer wrote: »

+1. Who is going to pay back this 200 million sterling , plus interest the British government has borrowed ? A future generation of children. What good does a government borrowing 200 million and giving it to barristers etc do....I think the money could be better spent. Even in this country think of what 200 million could do with healthcare, cancer screening etc if properly spent. People should not be living in the past and spending 200 million trying to investigate what happened on the spur of a moment over 40 years ago. Time to move on and build a better future.

That cost issue is a problem for their legal system(and probably ours). Of course if the killings were investigated properly in the first place, we wouldn't be discussing this.

Ever hear of the HET? Perhaps they should be closed too?

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

OK so it only applies when it's the British Army. I see. Conspiracy to commit etc goes out the window.

Please point out in my post where I said that the law shouldnt apply when the Irish army gunned down innocent unarmed civilians.

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

The problem here is that the British have killed many unarmed civilians unlike the Irish authorities without accountability so justice in this one case(Bloody Sunday) will help heal matters.

They have been found to have been unlawfully killed. That is as much justice as most got in N.I. sadly.

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

They have been found to have been unlawfully killed. That is as much justice as most got in N.I. sadly.

Not at the hands of the state unfortunately. This inquiry represents only 14 of about a few hundred state killings where no-one was held accountable.

fryup

prinz wrote: »

Northern Ireland is moving forward. Lot's of people have had bitter pills to swallow so far as seeing murderers and those involved in planning murders etc walk free.

exactly, do we really have to go on and on about past misdeads

i mean millions upon millions was spent on Bloody Sunday inquiry is it going to bring back the deceased >no........surely that money would have been better spent on hospitals, schools, job creation etc something constructive

and if we are going to go down that route why not have an inquiry into bloody friday as well:cool:

dlofnep

Japer wrote: »

Who is going to pay back this 200 million sterling , plus interest the British government has borrowed ?

Irrelevant. If the original report was fair and balanced, then it there would have been no need for a Saville inquiry.

prinz wrote: »

Good to see it coming close to a resolution. I'm not sure what the best step forward is though with regards to prosecuting soldiers, when other 'unlawful killers' are out and about walking the streets of Northern Ireland.

May be better just to leave it as a finding of unlawful killing that is there on record for all to see.

Oh yeah - I'm sure that will teach them. It's the equivalent of telling someone that they are "bold" for murder. Is that what you call justice?

The sad thing about it all - that the British Government was quick to jail innocent Irish civilians for the guildford pub bombings - but in any case where Irish civilians have been gunned down, they have been shy to seek justice. Not only in Derry, but also Ballymurphy and a number of other cases over the decades.

I agree that we should all be moving forward - but that process can only happen if Britain accepts it's responsibility for it's actions.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh yeah - I'm sure that will teach them. It's the equivalent of telling someone that they are "bold" for murder. Is that what you call justice?

I didn't call letting murdering scum walk free after the GFA justice either, but it has to be done.

dlofnep

fryup wrote: »

i mean millions upon millions was spent on Bloody Sunday inquiry is it going to bring back the deceased >no........surely that money would have been better spent on hospitals, schools, job creation etc something constructive

Justice for the families is constructive. You can be sure that if it was one of your family members murdered by soldiers, your sudden concern for cash would be quickly evaporated. The costs of this inquiry are the fault of the British Government, and no one else. This could have been resolved 38 years ago, but Britain preferred to keep it's name untarnished rather than accept it's responsibility and give justice to the families bereaved.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

I didn't call letting murdering scum walk free after the GFA justice either, but it has to be done.

At least some of them served time and have accepted their role in what they did - what time have the British army served, what responsibility have they accepted? Many innocent Irish civilians were interned without trial. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

So why was the British system quick to jail Irish civilians, but 38 years on - the cold-heart killings by it's own troops are still unpunished?

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

At least some of them served time and have accepted their role in what they did - what time have the British army served, what responsibility have they accepted? Many innocent Irish civilians were interned without trial. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

...and when this ruling is issued I would expect the British Army and authorities to recognise the findings, accept responsibility and issue apologies, compensation etc.

PeterIanStaker

prinz wrote: »

...and when this ruling is issued I would expect the British Army and authorities to recognise the findings, accept responsibility and issue apologies, compensation etc.

That won't happen sadly.

fryup

dlofnep wrote: »

You can be sure that if it was one of your family members murdered by soldiers, your sudden concern for cash would be quickly evaporated..

murdered by anyone soldier or terrorist

dlofnep wrote: »

The costs of this inquiry are the fault of the British Government, and no one else. This could have been resolved 38 years ago, but Britain preferred to keep it's name untarnished rather than accept it's responsibility and give justice to the families bereaved.

ok point made....but will sinn fein & the ira shows its responsibility by compensating familes of the victims they murdered???

lets see adams & mcguinness in the dock for a change, they've gotten off way too lightly over the years imo

hideous ape

PomBear wrote: »

Moved on from a strategic massacre of innocent civilians who were marching for their civil rights?

It's not that you moved, you don't want to care, like the rest of the 26 counties did at the time and will still do, leave their heads firmly in the sand, well done.

Bloody Sunday had nothing to do with the IRA. Saying that shows your cluelessness.

Eh? I think if you read my post again you'll find it was mainly related to a return to violence!

I was replying with the idea that this report 12 years ago would have had a direct effect on increased retaliation violence or bombings. That's what I was referring to about people moving on, I said nothing about people forgetting or ignoring those that were murdered or the troubles in general. You jumped to that conclusion!

Bloody Sunday indirectly had everything to do with the IRA from the British point of view. It was precisely because the IRA were been supported by their community that made them so difficult to fight. The civil rights march from the Nationalist point of view was just a civil rights march but to the British Government it was the Nationalist community attempting to have it's cake and eat it. As far as the British were concerned this was a bunch of paddy terrorists marching for civil rights. It would be like a civil rights march in Gaza today that Israel decided to fire upon. Sure isn't everyone in Gaza a terrorist????

The British military reaction was them saying you support the IRA but you also want civil rights, you can't have both! Was that the reality on the ground? Hell no it was not. The vast majority of Nationalists North, South and in that march wanted nothing to do with the IRA or any other terrorist group.

You must also have missed my sentence: "Frankly this will simply confirm what most of us believed already!"....that these were simply civil rights marchers gunned down in cold blood. I also stick by my view that the British will never try anyone for this crime.

I live in Cork now but that's not where I am from so I'd appreciate not been called clueless on a subject I happen to have had family killed over!

dlofnep

fryup wrote: »

murdered by anyone soldier or terrorist

That wasn't my point. My point was that you seemed overly-concerned about the costs of the inquiry (which was entirely the fault of the British Government), rather than being concerned about justice for the bereaved families. I pointed out that if it was one of your family members killed, you would be hesitant to toe the same line.

fryup wrote: »

ok point made....but will sinn fein & the ira shows its responsibility by compensating familes of the victims they murdered???

Compensating with what, exactly? Sinn Féin doesn't even have enough money to assist it's offices around the country anymore. How are they to reasonably be expected to compensate anyone?

The IRA however have accepted their responsibility for their roles played during the troubles. The British Government has not. That's the difference.

fryup

dlofnep wrote: »

Compensating with what, exactly? Sinn Féin doesn't even have enough money to assist it's offices around the country anymore. How are they to reasonably be expected to compensate anyone? .

bollix whenever there's an election coming its sinn fein who have all the posters out first all over the place ...it has plenty of money.. cross border smuggling, protection rackets...money laundering >northern bank robbery

dlofnep wrote: »

The IRA however have accepted their responsibility for their roles played during the troubles. The British Government has not. That's the difference.

the ira have accepted their part with a few media friendly statements...my question to you is ....would adams be willing to face an inquiry to explain his part in bloody friday ...i doubt it

gurramok

fryup wrote: »

murdered by anyone soldier or terrorist

ok point made....but will sinn fein & the ira shows its responsibility by compensating familes of the victims they murdered???

lets see adams & mcguinness in the dock for a change, they've gotten off way too lightly over the years imo

Why you trying to turn this into an Ira\SF thread?

The people murdered that day were not members of any of Ira\SF.

Start your own thread if you wish for the IRA to start compensating their victims. FFS.

Japer

fryup wrote: »

exactly, do we really have to go on and on about past misdeads

i mean millions upon millions was spent on Bloody Sunday inquiry is it going to bring back the deceased >no........surely that money would have been better spent on hospitals, schools, job creation etc something constructive

and if we are going to go down that route why not have an inquiry into bloody friday as well:cool:

+1. I do not believe the deaths which took place on Bloody Sunday were planned, premeditated or forseen ....unlike the deaths which occured on Bloody Friday, Le Mons, etc. 200 million sterling should be better spent than on barristers investigating something that happened on the spur of the moment over 40 years ago.

dlofnep

fryup wrote: »

bollix whenever there's an election coming its sinn fein who have all the posters out first all over the place ...it has plenty of money.. cross border smuggling, protection rackets...money laundering >northern bank robbery

Cross border smuggling my hole. Each constituency office has to raise it's own funds for posters which is done through music nights, dinner dances, raffles etc. I know you'd love to believe that it's all obtained through smuggling and money laundering - but you're seriously wrong.

So much money infact, that the local SF office here in Waterford had to close down because they couldn't afford the costs of it. Yeah, I'm sure SF is just basking in wealth. :rolleyes:

fryup wrote: »

the ira have accepted their part with a few media friendly statements...my question to you is ....would adams be willing to face an inquiry to explain his part in bloody friday ...i doubt it

Why don't you make a thread about it and ask? This is a thread discussing the pending findings of Bloody Sunday.

dlofnep

Japer wrote: »

I do not believe the deaths which took place on Bloody Sunday were planned, premeditated or forseen ....

A man waving a white flag, trying to come to the aid of a dieing man was shot in the back of the head. Please, what adjective would you use to describe those actions.

Japer wrote: »

200 million sterling should be better spent than on barristers investigating something that happened on the spur of the moment over 40 years ago.

Irrelevant. The costs of the inquiry are 100% the fault of the British Government. It could have been wrapped up quickly, and relatively cheaply if the original inquiry had of been valid and fair.

Hendrix89

Basically a lot of people in this thread don't want to see murderers jailed because they are/were british soldiers...

You go on about how we should be moving on and forgetting about this and what's happened in the past only to start rambling about IRA victims not having justice (which is not the topic of this thread).. Hypocritical much?

Just because these men wore a soldiers uniform does not make them good people. They are cold blooded murderers and deserve to jailed for the rest of their lives.

The reactions of some people in this thread is exactly what makes me fear that these murderers won't ever face prosecution.

prinz

Hendrix89 wrote: »

Just because these men wore a soldiers uniform does not make them good people. They are cold blooded murderers and deserve to jailed for the rest of their lives..

..and just because others didn't wear a uniform doesn't mean they should be exempt. There are plenty of cold blooded murderers who deserve to be jailed for the rest of their lives. There are plenty of other families who have gotten no justice at all, not even someone being held responsible.

Wolfe Tone

I hope we will finally see justice. This was murder, unadulterated murder.

RDM_83 again

Japer wrote: »

+1. I do not believe the deaths which took place on Bloody Sunday were planned, premeditated or forseen ....unlike the deaths which occured on Bloody Friday, Le Mons, etc. 200 million sterling should be better spent than on barristers investigating something that happened on the spur of the moment over 40 years ago.

I'l dig up link tomorrow to the fact that the british army were going to lower the velocity of their rifles to allow them to shoot particular rioters without the bullet passing through their bodies

Bottle_of_Smoke

fryup wrote: »

the ira have accepted their part with a few media friendly statements...my question to you is ....would adams be willing to face an inquiry to explain his part in bloody friday ...i doubt it

I doubt he would welcome that, but generally one doesn't have a choice about facing an inquiry. Why are you bringing that up anyway?? Its pure whataboutery and utterly irrelevant.

Are you suggesting that because Gerry Adams is lying about his role in the PIRA the investigation into a massacre of civilian's somehow has diminished merit? That's retarded - catch yourself on

celticbhoy1888

the ira got justice in 1979 whoo warrenpoint:P

Scofflaw

celticbhoy1888 wrote: »

the ira got justice in 1979 whoo warrenpoint:P

Please read the Charter, specifically the bits about posting celebrations of murder. Banned for a month.


moderately,
Scofflaw

jank

Those behind the killings should be brought to account for their actions in public and if needs be summoned to a court of law.

Fratton Fred

jank wrote: »

Those behind the killings should be brought to account for their actions in public and if needs be summoned to a court of law.

What will happen though? Could those responsible hide behind the GFA?

Nodin

The GFA released the convicted. As far as I know, it granted no amnesty to the "on the runs". As far as I understand it, they could still be charged and convicted, then released soon after.

FlutterinBantam

jank wrote: »

Those behind the killings should be brought to account for their actions in public and if needs be summoned to a court of law.

Presumably you would include all killings in that statement.?

Aidan1

I'l dig up link tomorrow to the fact that the british army were going to lower the velocity of their rifles to allow them to shoot particular rioters without the bullet passing through their bodies

Interesting. But undoubtedly rubbish - the only way you could 'lower' the velocity of a 7.62x51mm round from an SLR would be to somehow suppress the weapon, and suppressors weren't available for the SLR then (and would probably result in the weapon not cycling).

Bloody Sunday was a tactical and strategic disaster for the British Army, and for both Governments. The evidence has been fairly clear for years that senior commanders were aghast, and were shouting for a cease fire pretty much as soon as the shooting started. Calling it a 'strategic' act is rubbish though, if anything it was a consequence of using entirely inappropriate troops in an ill advised way in a very stressful situation.

It was possibly the biggest PR boost the SF/IRA got in the entire history of the troubles also, and perhaps the most unfortunate thing about this publication is that it will give rise to a whole new round of whataboutery from the 'republican community'. On that note, it will be interesting to see what Saville has to say about the locations and actions of Mr McGuinness that day. Senior republicans got a pass on the criminal justice system because of the peace process, regardless of whether or not they had convictions. I wonder if SF will extend the same definition of justice to former members of the British Army?

celticbest

My question is if the soldiers involved are proving to have murdered innocent civilians will they still receive there Army Pensions?? Also will they be named by the inquiry??

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Presumably you would include all killings in that statement.?

He would if that was the context for discussion. It isn't. We're discussing the Bloody Sunday inquiry. I hope this is clear.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

He would if that was the context for discussion. It isn't. We're discussing the Bloody Sunday inquiry. I hope this is clear.

If it isn't clear, let me reiterate it. Do not attempt to drag the thread into a discussion of every killing that's ever happened in Ulster history.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

celticbest wrote: »

My question is if the soldiers involved are proving to have murdered innocent civilians will they still receive there Army Pensions?? Also will they be named by the inquiry??

Interesting point.

On the basis the killings were unlawful, there is still a court case to go through to ascertain the actual conviction. Is it murder, manslaughter etc. On a case by case basis. We only talk about the dead as well, there are also the injured.

If they are to be named and lose their pensions, I wonder whose decision it is? Is there a commission to cover this sort of thing?

Nodin

I'd presume theres an Army board for that kind of thing. I doubt very much if anything like that was to happen though.