Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

Wolfe Tone

Sofa King Great wrote: »

What did you expect the Solicitor for the soldiers to say exactly?

Something along those lines.. I thought it was interesting and the thread would benefit from it, just like it did from posting that TUV leaders comments. That ok?

sink

"My primary thoughts today are with the thousands of innocent victims of the IRA who have never had justice, nor benefitted from any inquiry into why their loved ones died.
"Thus today's jamboree over the Saville report throws into very sharp relief the unacceptable and perverse hierarchy of victims which the preferential treatment of 'Bloody Sunday' has created."
- Jim Allister

It seems he can't tell the difference between soldiers employed by a supposed democratic and accountable government charged with protecting it's citizens and a terrorist organisation whose only mandate is self appointed and who is accountable to no one. When the latter murders it is undoubtedly a travesty, when the former murders it undermines the very bedrock of a free and fair society. While both acts are equally reprehensible the consequences for the former are far deeper and destructive and so it should be dealt with much greater care.

Sofa King Great

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Something along those lines.. I thought it was interesting and the thread would benefit from it, just like it did from posting that TUV leaders comments. That ok?

Thats fine by me. As you were...

sensibleken

sink wrote: »

"My primary thoughts today are with the thousands of innocent victims of the IRA who have never had justice, nor benefitted from any inquiry into why their loved ones died.
"Thus today's jamboree over the Saville report throws into very sharp relief the unacceptable and perverse hierarchy of victims which the preferential treatment of 'Bloody Sunday' has created."
- Jim Allister

It seems he can't tell the difference between soldiers employed by a supposed democratic and accountable government charged with protecting it's citizens and a terrorist organisation whose only mandate is self appointed and who is accountable to no one. When the latter murders it is undoubtedly a travesty, when the former murders it undermines the very bedrock of a free and fair society. While both acts are equally reprehensible the consequences for the former are far deeper and destructive and so it should be dealt with much greater care.

aside from the fact that there were inquiries for victims of the IRA, they were called criminal trials

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

Now some people can get back to name calling, finger pointing and spitting. Awesome. We've come a long way.

Another sterling contribution.

Wolfe Tone

Cowens comments, sum up how I feel actually! haha

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen said the Saville Inquiry was necessary because the "whitewash of Widgery" had "deeply compounded" the grief of the victims' families. The Taoiseach said the ultimate injustice was the "unjustified and unjustifiable killing of innocent civilians by those who claimed to be keeping the peace". "It was an act of murder that cried out for justice and truth - instead, justice and truth were then denied and cast aside," he added. Mr Cowen said a "shameful attempt to distort history" has now been set aside and the "truth has been set free."

gent9662

Simple fact is that gunfire came out of the bogside, the British army was perfectly within their right to return fire. The collateral damage that was caused as a result of them returning fire was not and should not be classified as murder.

If anybody was to blame for the deaths of the innocent it should be those IRA men that fired at the soldiers. I think the report was a complete waist of time and resources.

amacachi

sensibleken wrote: »

aside from the fact that there were inquiries for victims of the IRA, they were called criminal trials

Yeah, I'm still not sure what kind of inquiry they want tbh.

amacachi

dclane wrote: »

Simple fact is that gunfire came out of the bogside, the British army was perfectly within their right to return fire. The collateral damage that was caused as a result of them returning fire was not and should not be classified as murder.

If anybody was to blame for the deaths of the innocent it should be those IRA men that fired at the soldiers. I think the report was a complete waist of time and resources.

Go **** yourself, how's that? Has to be said tbh. They shot unarmed civilians, many of them in the back. Absolutely nothing to do with the IRA. The soldiers didn't return fire, they shot at people running away and people aiding others who had been injured. One of the victims was shot close-up in the back then shot as he lay injured on the ground, inexcusable.

Otacon

dclane wrote: »

Simple fact is that gunfire came out of the bogside, the British army was perfectly within their right to return fire. The collateral damage that was caused as a result of them returning fire was not and should not be classified as murder.

If anybody was to blame for the deaths of the innocent it should be those IRA men that fired at the soldiers. I think the report was a complete waist of time and resources.

So you think the report was a waste of time because you disagree with its findings? Really?

Nodin

dclane wrote: »

Simple (....) resources.

The soldiers fired first.

If you've alternative information, why did you not bring it to the attention of the tribunal?

youcrazyjesus!

Really disappointed with the reactions from Unionists and some on here. It's a really simple issue. Soldiers massacred innocent civilians who were protesting genuine inequality in society. Anybody muddying the waters, throwing in the PIRA and IRA into statements on today are doing the same things that caused there to be a need for an inquiry in the first place. It's a disgrace. Unionists never, ever learn. They would keel over and die if they were to be any way gracious. It has nothing to do with the IRA.

gent9662

danbohan wrote: »

i think you are a complete waste of time and your parents resources , does it matter , no , does your opinion matter, no , the truth has come out today . now take your twisted logic to some quiet dark place and try deal with your hatred of all things Irish there

I am as Irish as they come my friend, collateral damage happens during a war and can you honestly say that the soldiers were wrong to return fire when fired upon?

The innocent killings were caused the actions of the IRA and it is the IRA who should apologise to the families of the dead. The English followed orders and did things by the book. The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

dlofnep

dclane wrote: »

Simple fact is that gunfire came out of the bogside, the British army was perfectly within their right to return fire.

The report found that it was the British army who initiated fire.

dclane wrote: »

The collateral damage that was caused as a result of them returning fire was not and should not be classified as murder.

Collateral damage? That's an interesting way of describing shooting an innocent man in the back of the head, who was waving a white flag trying to assist a dieing man.

dclane wrote: »

If anybody was to blame for the deaths of the innocent it should be those IRA men that fired at the soldiers.

I think you'll find that the report found that the British soldiers were 100% to blame. David Cameron agrees with this point of view.

dclane wrote: »

I think the report was a complete waist of time and resources.

Waist of time?

It wouldn't have been as costly if the original report had of reported the truth.

danbohan

dclane wrote: »

I am as Irish as they come my friend, collateral damage happens during a war and can you honestly say that the soldiers were wrong to return fire when fired upon?

The innocent killings were caused the actions of the IRA and it is the IRA who should apologise to the families of the dead. The English followed orders and did things by the book. The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

read the report , they were not fired on , it was premeditated cold bloodied murder something the British army very good at .

fontanalis

dclane wrote: »

I am as Irish as they come my friend, collateral damage happens during a war and can you honestly say that the soldiers were wrong to return fire when fired upon?

The innocent killings were caused the actions of the IRA and it is the IRA who should apologise to the families of the dead. The English followed orders and did things by the book. The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

Is that the "How to shoot unarmed teenagers book"?

rightwingdub

Hopefully there will be prosecutions of British soldiers who murdered unarmed civilians, what did Cameron have to say about the Bloody Sunday massacre.

gent9662

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Really disappointed with the reactions from Unionists and some on here. It's a really simple issue. Soldiers massacred innocent civilians who were protesting genuine inequality in society. Anybody muddying the waters, throwing in the PIRA and IRA into statements on today are doing the same things that caused there to be a need for an inquiry in the first place. It's a disgrace. Unionists never, ever learn. They would keel over and die if they were to be any way gracious. It has nothing to do with the IRA.

It has everything to do with the IRA, they were there shooting at the British soldiers. They massacred people in Northern Ireland for years without provocation, innocent people I might add! I'm not a unionist, I'm a normal Irish Catholic joe soap entitled to my say like everybody else.

It seems to me to be quite the contrary this thread has some very strong republican views which seem to be using the publishing of the report as a grounds to put across more and more republican rhetoric!

karma_

dclane wrote: »

It has everything to do with the IRA, they were there shooting at the British soldiers. They massacred people in Northern Ireland for years without provocation, innocent people I might add! I'm not a unionist, I'm a normal Irish Catholic joe soap entitled to my say like everybody else.

It seems to me to be quite the contrary this thread has some very strong republican views which seem to be using the publishing of the report as a grounds to put across more and more republican rhetoric!

I suppose the one victim who was proved to be on his stomach when he was shot in the anus was just collateral damage too? If that isn't murder what is?

If that was your brother/son would you still be spewing the same shít you are now?

dlofnep

rightwingdub wrote: »

Hopefully there will be prosecutions of British soldiers who murdered unarmed civilians, what did Cameron have to say about the Bloody Sunday massacre.

He was actually shockingly apologetic.

dlofnep

dclane wrote: »

It has everything to do with the IRA

No, it didn't.

fontanalis

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it didn't.

It sure did after though!

gsxr1

fontanalis wrote: »

It sure did after though!

Your right there. One of there biggest recruitment days. Along with the hunger strikes.

caseyann

dclane wrote: »

It has everything to do with the IRA, they were there shooting at the British soldiers. They massacred people in Northern Ireland for years without provocation, innocent people I might add! I'm not a unionist, I'm a normal Irish Catholic joe soap entitled to my say like everybody else.

It seems to me to be quite the contrary this thread has some very strong republican views which seem to be using the publishing of the report as a grounds to put across more and more republican rhetoric!

You need to have a look into the past

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayXcfps1MUA

rightwingdub

dlofnep wrote: »

He was actually shockingly apologetic.

What will all the hardline tory backbenchers think:D

Maybe the Lib Dems are talking some sense into him as regards the North.

youcrazyjesus!

dclane wrote: »

It has everything to do with the IRA, they were there shooting at the British soldiers. They massacred people in Northern Ireland for years without provocation, innocent people I might add! I'm not a unionist, I'm a normal Irish Catholic joe soap entitled to my say like everybody else.

It seems to me to be quite the contrary this thread has some very strong republican views which seem to be using the publishing of the report as a grounds to put across more and more republican rhetoric!

Read the report. FFS.

rightwingdub

If there are prosecutions how long will these murderers have to serve, would they not be released after a few months under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement?

Mayo Exile

dclane wrote: »

It has everything to do with the IRA, they were there shooting at the British soldiers. They massacred people in Northern Ireland for years without provocation, innocent people I might add! I'm not a unionist, I'm a normal Irish Catholic joe soap entitled to my say like everybody else.

It seems to me to be quite the contrary this thread has some very strong republican views which seem to be using the publishing of the report as a grounds to put across more and more republican rhetoric!

Erm, Widgery or Saville then, which one do you prefer?

Good to see the victims of this dark day have their names cleared completely as well as being declared unlawfully killed. Good statement too from British PM Cameron.

Bottle_of_Smoke

celticbest wrote: »

Worse atrocities

These soldiers killed unarmed civilians in the name of queen & country, what's worse then the people whom have been charged with keeping law and order being the one who actually commit an atrocity

Soldiers above everyone else through training and discipline should have controlled themselves in a tense situation and not carried out a murder spree....(Unless they were order to).

I'm just thinking of the likes of William Moore who died recently, a man who abducted innocent people, then slashed them up with butcher knives before killing them. The leader of his gang once pulled a guys teeth out one by one with a pliers before killing him.

Others from his gang are still alive and were released under the terms of the GFA.

As I said its not something I'm sure about either way.

Congratulations for the families and well done to Lord Saville and the other judges. Excellent statement from Brian Cowen also.

youcrazyjesus!

Didn't like Miriam O'Callaghan's promo for Prime Time tonight. "Will we learn the full truth about Bloody Sunday?". Implying we might not. That's really low. She should think before doing the promo.

KELTICKNIGHTT

have read the summary report and will take some time too read the full report,alot too take in,i DONT share views by some here,but will say that the familes have found what they have being waiting for so long and the loved ones can rest in peace,,some facts probly will shock me,so details already have.will remain too be seem weather any soldiers will face court will remain too be seem,
Congratulations for the families and well done to Lord Saville and the other judges and all involved

sceptre

I've deleted about 20 posts. They've been collectively labelled "Assorted posts deleted: mainly ****stirring, personalisation, idiocy and making the universe worth less" in the deletion log.

Many of these posts have been personalising the discussion and insulting other forum members. Such posts have been issued with yellow or red cards.

There are still strong views on this topic from at least two sides (and probably not just two). Regardless of your own strong views, insulting fellow forum members, personalising the discussion, accusations of trolling, being a clever little comedy monkey who probably is trolling etc are still prohibited by the forum charter. You might not like the other guy in this discussion or any other but you still don't get to insult the other guy because he/she has views that are "wrong" or opposite to yours. The forum charter still applies as always. If you've not read it (and it's apparent that some of you haven't), I strongly advise reading it before typing an insulting post at your fellow forum members that will get you issued with a formal reminder or a local ban. Your call, the charter exists and is an easy read.

/mod

If none of the above applies to you, just carry on. If it does, please carry on more carefully.

Wolfe Tone

I think that a very important step has been taken here today. The next step is legal action and prosecutions. I think the soldiers themselves should be named and shamed.

sceptre

dclane wrote: »

The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

Er, no.

The report means quite a lot to the people involved (yes, on both sides - even more than two sides considering the political situation at the time). It means a lot to the notion of accountability. And it means a lot to actual accountability. It should have been done years ago, though I'm rather glad it was done in the current climate - carried out in the mid-70s it would been far more likely to be a whitewash.

Justice may take some time and in this case it clearly has. But justice gets there and in this case it clearly has.

You can blame whoever you want for the climate at the time and the actions that led to people being out on the streets on that day. But the conclusions of the report are precise, considered, clear and just. You obviously don't like the conclusions and you've got a right to hold that view. But unless there's something significant and relevant you've got to add that changes (or should change) the conclusions of the report, something isn't wrong or meaningless merely because you don't like it. That's the difference between opinion and fact, a difference everyone would do well to consider and remember.

Unless you've got something significant and relevant to add that changes (or should change) the conclusions of the report, I have nothing to add on my view of your view.

Wolfe Tone

sceptre wrote: »

Er, no.

carried out in the mid-70s it would been far more likely to be a whitewash.

Aka the Widgery report.

sceptre

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Aka the Widgery report.

I forgot about that one:o (don't ask how, just keep walking...). Point well made.

Nodin

dclane wrote: »

I am as Irish as they come my friend, collateral damage happens during a war and can you honestly say that the soldiers were wrong to return fire when fired upon?

The innocent killings were caused the actions of the IRA and it is the IRA who should apologise to the families of the dead. The English followed orders and did things by the book. The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

They weren't fired on - they started the firing. Why do you keep saying they were?

Jaap

danbohan wrote: »

read the report , they were not fired on , it was premeditated cold bloodied murder something the British army very good at .

I think you will find (if you look hard enough) that in the report it says that events on Bloody Sunday were not premeditated!!!

I think the Irish Republican Army were the ones in Northern Ireland who carried out the most premeditated murders...do you want the stats on that to back up my statement???

Jaap

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Really disappointed with the reactions from Unionists and some on here. It's a really simple issue. Soldiers massacred innocent civilians who were protesting genuine inequality in society. Anybody muddying the waters, throwing in the PIRA and IRA into statements on today are doing the same things that caused there to be a need for an inquiry in the first place. It's a disgrace. Unionists never, ever learn. They would keel over and die if they were to be any way gracious. It has nothing to do with the IRA.

The IRA killed 7 soldiers in Londonderry in the 6 months prior to Bloody Sunday...they killed 2 RUC officers in Londonderry 3 days prior to Bloody Sunday...this would have seriously effected how the British Army may have been feeling on Bloody Sunday...tense, maybe panicky, ready to engage...and are you telling me that Martin McGuiness, who from this Saville report was supposedly armed with a sub-machine gun, was out to have a peaceful protest!!! THe IRA did fire shots on the day...I'm sure they are devastated they didn't kill any soldiers!!!
The IRA always have had a part to play in the troubles in Northern Ireland...in fact they played the biggest part!!! They murdered the most amount of people...705 soldiers died...I'm sure 95% of them were killed by the provisionals!!
Good that the families today got their apology...but is Martin McGuiness and all his IRA/Sinn Fein colleagues gonna say sorry to the 7 soldiers and 2 RUC men mentioned above who died in Mr McGuiness' IRA region around the Bloody Sunday time??? Somehow I don't think so!!!

caseyann

Jaap wrote: »

The IRA killed 7 soldiers in Londonderry in the 6 months prior to Bloody Sunday...they killed 2 RUC officers in Londonderry 3 days prior to Bloody Sunday...this would have seriously effected how the British Army may have been feeling on Bloody Sunday...tense, maybe panicky, ready to engage...and are you telling me that Martin McGuiness, who from this Saville report was supposedly armed with a sub-machine gun, was out to have a peaceful protest!!! THe IRA did fire shots on the day...I'm sure they are devastated they didn't kill any soldiers!!!
The IRA always have had a part to play in the troubles in Northern Ireland...in fact they played the biggest part!!! They murdered the most amount of people...705 soldiers died...I'm sure 95% of them were killed by the provisionals!!
Good that the families today got their apology...but is Martin McGuiness and all his IRA/Sinn Fein colleagues gonna say sorry to the 7 soldiers and 2 RUC men mentioned above who died in Mr McGuiness' IRA region around the Bloody Sunday time??? Somehow I don't think so!!!

So that justifies murder of 14 people who were unarmed by those who are under orders and there to keep the streets safe?????? One of whom was shot while carrying a white flag to aide someone injured????

Nodin

Jaap wrote: »

I think you will find (if you look hard enough) that in the report it says that events (.....)ement???

So despite the British inquiry blaming the British, you're trying to blame somebody else.....

fontanalis

Jaap wrote: »

I think you will find (if you look hard enough) that in the report it says that events on Bloody Sunday were not premeditated!!!

I think the Irish Republican Army were the ones in Northern Ireland who carried out the most premeditated murders...do you want the stats on that to back up my statement???

Are you equating a paramilitary organisation with the standing army of a supposed civilised country? Are you calling the British Army terrorists?

caseyann

fontanalis wrote: »

Are you equating a paramilitary organisation with the standing army of a supposed civilised country? Are you calling the British Army terrorists?

They forgot the loyalist among them also.
There is three or four more or less new users with very few posts;) and they seem to be thanking eachother,amd trying to lay blame and accusations on Irish innocents doors and keep bringing IRA into it.

Jaap

caseyann wrote: »

So that justifies murder of 14 people who were unarmed by those who are under orders and there to keep the streets safe?????? One of whom was shot while carrying a white flag to aide someone injured????

There is no justification of any murder during the troubles...but people have to understand what was going on in Northern Ireland at that time...the tension, killings, unrest.
These soldiers probably didn't have any prior experience to this sort of goings-on that was happening in Northern Ireland...many of their colleagues were being shot dead by the IRA in Londonderry and other parts of Northern Ireland...I think if I was in their situation I would be on my guard constantly whilst out on patrol...particularly in Londonderry where there were no-go areas for the army and police!!!
Do you think there should be some form of enquiry in to the 9 deaths I mentioned of army and RUC personnel in the 6 months leading up to Bloody Sunday??? I'm sure Martin McGuiness knows a lot about them!!

caseyann

Jaap wrote: »

There is no justification of any murder during the troubles...but people have to understand what was going on in Northern Ireland at that time...the tension, killings, unrest.
These soldiers probably didn't have any prior experience to this sort of goings-on that was happening in Northern Ireland...many of their colleagues were being shot dead by the IRA in Londonderry and other parts of Northern Ireland...I think if I was in their situation I would be on my guard constantly whilst out on patrol...particularly in Londonderry where there were no-go areas for the army and police!!!
Do you think there should be some form of enquiry in to the 9 deaths I mentioned of army and RUC personnel in the 6 months leading up to Bloody Sunday??? I'm sure Martin McGuiness knows a lot about them!!

And this is not what the thread is about.But you insist on trying to make excuses and white wash it.
So in your thought area.Irish should have been out killing all Brits because they had seen them kill their families and friends for decades before?
Like for like.

They are in a job and knew what they were going into,they know who shot them the IRA no i dont think a inquiry should be into that,then there should be one into the loyalists also.

Jaap

Nodin wrote: »

So despite the British inquiry blaming the British, you're trying to blame somebody else.....

I am just saying that the Saville enquiry says the events on Bloody Sunday were not premeditated...if you don't know what the word "premeditated" means it is kind of planning to do something...maybe a few days in advance!!!
The British have held their hands up, admitted responsibility...fair play to them, they apologised...but don't you think IRA victims killed in Londonderry just prior to Bloody Sunday, they deserve an apology directed at their families and some form of a report on how or why they died from Martin McGuiness and the Londonderry area IRA???

Jaap

caseyann wrote: »

And this is not what the thread is about.But you insist on trying to make excuses and white wash it.
So in your thought area.Irish should have been out killing all Brits because they had seen them kill their families and friends for decades before?
Like for like.

They are in a job and knew what they were going into,they know who shot them the IRA no i dont think a inquiry should be into that,then there should be one into the loyalists also.

I am in to any enquiry in to all murders...loyalist or republican or state murders!!! I value all life in Northern Ireland...protestant and catholic!!!
Obviously you value republican lives more than you do of British lives if you dont think there should be an enquiry in to IRA murders in Londonderry around the time of Bloody Sunday!!!

Jaap

fontanalis wrote: »

Are you equating a paramilitary organisation with the standing army of a supposed civilised country? Are you calling the British Army terrorists?

No...not at all!!! The British Amy is one of the best in the world...many of them sacrificed their lives in Northern Ireland to keep the peace.
But we all know how the IRA liked to justify their terror by calling it a war!!! They obviously see themselves as an army too...hence the name!!

Jaap

caseyann wrote: »

They forgot the loyalist among them also.
There is three or four more or less new users with very few posts;) and they seem to be thanking eachother,amd trying to lay blame and accusations on Irish innocents doors and keep bringing IRA into it.

I think some people on this forum need to take off their green tinted glasses and realise that in Northern Ireland both sides were to blame.
You can't have solely enquiries in to events that only affect one side of the community!!! Come on...more balance!!!

Wolfe Tone

I have read and heard the phrases "unjustified and unjustifiable" along with "you cannot defend the indefensible" today.

Perhaps some here should take that to heart.