Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

Run_to_da_hills

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Now there's a turn up for the books.:D

Dalkey in 1972 was a far cry from the Dalkey of today. The Average price of a council cottage would have been around £700 to £1000 and most of the town would have been renting them from the council as they could not afford. Most in my class would have come from "Working Class" backgrounds which would have had quite a strong republican support among them.

Bottle_of_Smoke

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Quite pathetic, some posts on here. Seems to be a blanket refusal from some posters to see that the BA massacred these people without adding a unwarranted "but" onto it. No matter what preceded the events of that day it doesn't in any way justify it. I hear time and time again that the BA are one of the most professional and well trained forces in the world. Well in this instance, like on multiple occasions in the past, they quite clearly lost the run of themselves. For such a supposably crack force there is NO justification for that. None whatsoever.The blame and responsibility lies 100% on the BA.

McGuinnesses presence there whether he had a tommy gun or not is irrelevant. The fact is he did nothing.

I think it stems from people discussing Bloody Sunday in the context of the troubles and the IRA.

ie 'the IRA committed atrocities but what do you expect given the actions of the BA at Bloody Sunday' etc. Now that the British government have admitted the massacre was unjustifiable Unionists probably fear the IRA campaign will be seen in a more sympathetic manner.

I had a read through the pulseresources.org forum thread, whilst there may be some pathetic posts here the stuff they're saying over there would make you sick.

KeithAFC

Mcguiness is not innocent. He played a huge part in the troubles.

I feel sorry for the people who got killed. That was terrible.

But lets not forget.

Zambia

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

"The officer who gave the order for the paras to deploy, the late Colonel Derek Wilford, either misunderstood or exceeded an order to him to permit limited engagement. His order, and the deadly fire of some of the paras, produced a massacre."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b0facd80-78b6-11df-a312-00144feabdc0.html

Now you can argue 'engage' in military terms means 'have a cup of tea with', if you like.

The report states he let his men chase the rioters. When his orders were to hold his men back. While Wilfords actions are very arrogant there is no evidence to believe he intended for his men to shoot down people in cold blood. There is no record in the report of an order of that nature.

So if you are saying that Colonel Wilford ordered his men to shoot unarmed Civilians, there is no evidence in this report or any others to support it. Engage does not mean murder especially in a crowd control scenario.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I believe you and your Pal Fred are the ones trying to detract and sour from the thread and the report.

You said That the mens officers ordered them to gun down unarmed civilians. I simply asked you to back up your statement by telling me the officer who ordered it. If there was evidence Wilford or any officer gave such an order there would be no case for the 5 soldiers to answer.

As there is a case for the 5 soldier's to answer then the evidence indicates no order was given. They may have the impression they had a green light to shoot people but they did not.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Mcguiness is not innocent. He played a huge part in the troubles.

I feel sorry for the people who got killed. That was terrible.

But lets not forget.

Could you show an ounce of humanity, and at least be respectful instead of posting inappropriate and completely off-topic images?

drakshug

Yeah.

The time for those images are long gone.

The only thing, as someone with no links to Ireland or any of the politics, is that there is going to be a backlash soon. The paras were out of control but it is being used to gain political points and, in some sectors, being used for anti Brit rhetoric.
As I've said before, we knew the civil rights marchers were murdered. At last their families can get some closure if that is any recompense.
However, listening and reading the media it seems that this is a closing chapter. It isn't. There are a lot more closures to be made. If there are insistences on court cases, then it has to be made on both sides.
Anyone who has killed a civilian should be brought to justice.

A Dub in Glasgo

drakshug wrote: »

Most of us from the UK knew that the paras shot innocent people. We didn't need an enquiry for that. David Cameron has apologised for all of us. It was a disgrace what happened.

I have spoken to loads today who had no idea that their soldiers killed so many innocent civilians in NI

Are the various other factions in the troubles going to be subject to enquiries relating to civilian deaths or is it only Republican deaths that are worthy. Napalming pubs. Kidnappings, canary wharf etc etc.
Just wondering if it is going to be balanced.

Probably not as they will be subject to the rule of law even if they were convicted and released early. Huge difference to a state committing a massacre and covering it up for 38 years with no prosecutions.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

Could you show an ounce of humanity, and at least be respectful instead of posting inappropriate and completely off-topic images?

Omagh, Banbridge, we will never forget. No Surrender.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Omagh, Banbridge, we will never forget. No Surrender.

And we will never forget either. Omagh was a terrible attack on civilian life.

You need to drop this "no surrender" rhetoric. It doesn't serve you well.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Omagh, Banbridge, we will never forget. No Surrender.

Disgusting. You wont even acknowledge that these INNOCENT men were murdered?

A Dub in Glasgo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Omagh, Banbridge, we will never forget. No Surrender.

No surrender to what exactly?

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

And we will never forget either. Omagh was a terrible attack on civilian life.

You need to drop this "no surrender" rhetoric. It doesn't serve you well.

No Surrender sums it up perfectly.

We will all live perfectly happy together and im happy now but we will never forget and we will never live under the Irish flag.

caseyann

KeithAFC wrote: »

Omagh, Banbridge, we will never forget. No Surrender.

Trying to stir it a bit,letting your self down:(

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

No Surrender sums it up perfectly.

We will all live perfectly happy together and im happy now but we will never forget and we will never live under the Irish flag.

And how do you propose to stop democratic progress?

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And how do you propose to stop democratic progress?

We live in a democratic country. Both sides are allowed to vote for who they want and so on. Both sides can go for jobs and not get it because of their political or religious beliefs (i don't have a religious belief).

So the country has came on a hell of a lot but we (Unionists) will not live under the Irish flag.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Quite a bit. Have you, or only the bits you like?

It is a good report and states what most people have thought all along.

I'm just making the point that Martin McGuinnes is incredibly hypocritical when he was fully intending to use violence and endanger people's lives that day. Maybe an apology from him wouldn't go amiss.

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, that's what I thought. Deflect, dodge, deny.

I think Fred is right about this to be honest. Whilst it does in no way justify what happened(and I don't believe Fred was suggesting that it did), I think it is fair to say that as a separate issue it was deeply irresponsible of the Provos and Stickies to be armed anywhere near a civil rights march, particularly when that march was surrounded by heavily armed soldiers

Livvie

dlofnep wrote: »

And we will never forget either. Omagh was a terrible attack on civilian life.

You need to drop this "no surrender" rhetoric. It doesn't serve you well.

It just goes some way to explaining why it all happened. Intransigence.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

We live in a democratic country. Both sides are allowed to vote for who they want and so on. Both sides can go for jobs and not get it because of their political or religious beliefs (i don't have a religious belief).

So the country has came on a hell of a lot but we (Unionists) will not live under the Irish flag.

And what happens if a majority votes for a united Ireland?

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

We live in a democratic country. Both sides are allowed to vote for who they want and so on. Both sides can go for jobs and not get it because of their political or religious beliefs (i don't have a religious belief).

So the country has came on a hell of a lot but we (Unionists) will not live under the Irish flag.

Honestly ,what the fúck has this got to do with Bloody Sunday. Take your outdated rhetoric and start a new thread.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And what happens if a majority votes for a united Ireland?

Will never happen.

Bottle_of_Smoke

KeithAFC wrote: »

Will never happen.

He said if

caseyann

KeithAFC wrote: »

Will never happen.

Sorry for off topic
Isnt that what was said about Irish having any say in the running up north.
Never is just a word.


And best wishes to all the families and friends for the getting the truth.It always comes out in the end.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Will never happen.

Heres an idea, how about you return to your local beach and stick your head in the sand? This thread is about Bloody Sunday and the fact that they were innocent people murdered. Not about Unionists for whom "No Surrender" is a rallying call. Dont derail the thread.


My fault for even replying I suppose. My bad.

Byron85

KeithAFC wrote: »

Will never happen.

It won't happen tomorrow but it is inevitable and most likely it will happen within our lifetimes. The democratic process cannot be usurped any longer. It isn't the days of gerrymandering.

If the majority vote to be part of the Republic you have to respect it the same way we in the south respect the fact that the North is part of the U.K. Now, stop wasting my time, your time and everyone else's time in this thread. Innocent civilians were shot dead by an army. It's as simple as that.

Fratton Fred

drakshug wrote: »

Yeah.

The time for those images are long gone.

The only thing, as someone with no links to Ireland or any of the politics, is that there is going to be a backlash soon. The paras were out of control but it is being used to gain political points and, in some sectors, being used for anti Brit rhetoric.
As I've said before, we knew the civil rights marchers were murdered. At last their families can get some closure if that is any recompense.
However, listening and reading the media it seems that this is a closing chapter. It isn't. There are a lot more closures to be made. If there are insistences on court cases, then it has to be made on both sides.
Anyone who has killed a civilian should be brought to justice.

personally I think this should now be the end to it.

with the ris eof the RIRA and CIRA opening old wounds publicly may not be in the best interests of peace.

Bloody Sunday, as the start of it all, needed closure. maybe more should be done to bring those who commited the Omagh attrocity to justice, but everything else i really think needs to be let lie.

KeithAFC

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

It won't happen tomorrow but it is inevitable and most likely it will happen within our lifetimes. The democratic process cannot be usurped any longer. It isn't the days of gerrymandering.

If the majority vote to be part of the Republic you have to respect it the same way we in the south respect the fact that the North is part of the U.K. Now, stop wasting my time, your time and everyone else's time in this thread. Innocent civilians were shot dead by an army. It's as simple as that.

lol, the country will go to war. You will not get a majority to vote for a United Ireland. Stop living in a lala land. It ain't going to happen.

KeithAFC

By the way, i feel so sorry for the people who got killed on Bloody Sunday. It is a disgrace and what happened over the years was a disgrace on both sides. I was just making a tiny point.

Life is much better now

Byron85

KeithAFC wrote: »

lol, the country will go to war. You will not get a majority to vote for a United Ireland. Stop living in a lala land. It ain't going to happen.

I'll say it again for you and leave it at that.


Democratic process.


/discussion.

EuskalHerria

I havn't read over this thread, my time on this earth is more precious to me than that.

What I will say is that this thread does seem to have filled to 26 pages with nothing but relief for the families of those murdered.

This enquire has dragged on and the families of those that were evidently murdered that day have, finally, got peace of mind. As a republican it is my I feel my duty to congratlate David Cameron for recognising the findings and for reacting like any other sane human being would. If my appreciation for the man ends there, at least he had the decency to stand before his parliment and recognise the outrageous acts performed by British soldiers that day.

Hopefully the momentum of the last few days will push forward and those guilty, under the declartions made within the Saville report, will be made accountable for the actions which cost so many people there lives.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

personally I think this should now be the end to it.

with the ris eof the RIRA and CIRA opening old wounds publicly may not be in the best interests of peace.

Bloody Sunday, as the start of it all, needed closure. maybe more should be done to bring those who commited the Omagh attrocity to justice, but everything else i really think needs to be let lie.

Would you include Kevin Crilly who was charged last year in connection with the Robert Nairac, case 33 years ago.

KeithAFC

KeithAFC wrote: »

lol, the country will go to war. You will not get a majority to vote for a United Ireland. Stop living in a lala land. It ain't going to happen.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its way past your bed time.

Don't start an E war.

drakshug

Fratton Fred wrote: »

personally I think this should now be the end to it.

with the ris eof the RIRA and CIRA opening old wounds publicly may not be in the best interests of peace.

Bloody Sunday, as the start of it all, needed closure. maybe more should be done to bring those who commited the Omagh attrocity to justice, but everything else i really think needs to be let lie.

David Cameron has said he would find it hard to sit down at the same table as McGuinness. An apology for shankhill and Enniskillen might also heal wounds.

KeithAFC

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

I'll say it again for you and leave it at that.


Democratic process.


/discussion.

:pac:

citytillidie

KeithAFC wrote: »

By the way, i feel so sorry for the people who got killed on Bloody Sunday. It is a disgrace and what happened over the years was a disgrace on both sides. I was just making a tiny point.

Life is much better now

Point seems to be very out dated, go back and join the knuckle draggers who know nothing but trouble and dont want our wee country to move on and develop with jobs and money.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

personally I think this should now be the end to it.

with the ris eof the RIRA and CIRA opening old wounds publicly may not be in the best interests of peace.

Bloody Sunday, as the start of it all, needed closure. maybe more should be done to bring those who commited the Omagh attrocity to justice, but everything else i really think needs to be let lie.

I would agree on Omagh, but they have been trying and have yet to succeed. Not because they don't want to, but because it wasn't an internal British affair. Bloody Sunday was. Which is why they have the power to make the inquiry that they did. It would be alot harder with Omagh.

As for the rest of the posts previous to this from other posters : This thread is not about whether or not Unionists will live under an Irish flag, or whether or not Irish unification will take place. It is a discussion about Bloody Sunday and I hope we can keep it that way.

citytillidie

drakshug wrote: »

David Cameron has said he would find it hard to sit down at the same table as McGuinness. An apology for shankhill and Enniskillen might also heal wounds.

As was posted the IRA have said sorry for their crimes, those who commented them have spent time in jail for it and during the peace process they were let out.

Zambia

KeithAFC wrote: »

Don't start an E war.

If your actions are childish and immature you should not be surprised when people tell you its past your bedtime.

You have contributed nothing to this thread.

KeithAFC

citytillidie wrote: »

Point seems to be very out dated, go back and join the knuckle draggers who know nothing but trouble and dont want our wee country to move on and develop with jobs and money.

In your opinion. Its a point which means A lot to a lot of people. That ain't going to stop more jobs and money coming into the country.

Times have changed in reality, nothing wrong with an open discussion about it on the internet.

Anyway, back on topic i suppose.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Don't start an E war.

Keith, go away. You're not contributing anything to this thread, and you're doing decent Unionists a dis-service by posting your nonsense.

Zambia

drakshug wrote: »

David Cameron has said he would find it hard to sit down at the same table as McGuinness.

Nobody said being PM was going to be easy.

KeithAFC

Zambia232 wrote: »

If your actions are childish and immature you should not be surprised when people tell you its past your bedtime.

You have contributed nothing to this thread.

In your opinion. Remember to say that.:rolleyes:

loldog

KeithAFC wrote: »

In your opinion. Remember to say that.:rolleyes:

That's a good point Keith.

.

drakshug

citytillidie wrote: »

As was posted the IRA have said sorry for their crimes, those who commented them have spent time in jail for it and during the peace process they were let out.

So now can we have closure from both sides? I hope so or are we going to still get the usual neanderthal Unionist rhetoric and the usual anti Brit Republican Rhetoric.
Crimes were committed by both sides. Enough were killed and maimed.
Let us hope their lives were not in vain and the people of this island can live together in peace and equality.

gsxr1

KeithAFC wrote: »

No Surrender sums it up perfectly.

We will all live perfectly happy together and im happy now but we will never forget and we will never live under the Irish flag.

thats Ok . thats your thing. I have plenty of friends who believe the same

the electorate will vote on such matters.

But this thread is not the place to debate such a matter. Please dont

Exile 1798

There have been a number of very illogical and fact-less posts from supporters of the British Army in this thread trying to deflect from the obvious conclusion that British soldiers should be tried for murder.

I was going to quote them and reply but there have been so many that it would be impossible. Their arguments they can be summed up as this:

* What about the IRA? What about this incident or that incident? These should all be investigated!
* If IRA members aren't charged for this or that, then British soldiers shouldn't be charged over the Bloody Sunday massacre.

The fact is that past incidents involving the IRA are still open to investigation and people accused of involvement are still subject to prosecution. In 2008 an Armagh man was charged with the "murder" of a active duty British soldier in 1977. The year before two Tyrone men where charged with the "attempted murder" of another British soldier from 1981. The PSNI has said that wherever evidence exists they will investigate and pursue prosecution and their actions bare this out.

So not only are the "but what about them?" arguments distasteful, they are also completely wrong in their assumptions.

As Irish citizens are being charged and are open to being charged with the "murders" of British soldiers over 30 years previous, then surely we are right to expect British soldiers to be charged with the murders of Irish civilians from 1972, especially when all the evidence is well known?

dlofnep

Hear Hear!

sensibleken

Exile 1798 wrote: »

There have been a number of very illogical and fact-less posts from supporters of the British Army in this thread trying to deflect from the obvious conclusion that British soldiers should be tried for murder.

I was going to quote them and reply but there have been so many that it would be impossible. Their arguments they can be summed up as this:

* What about the IRA? What about this incident or that incident? These should all be investigated!
* If IRA members aren't charged for this or that, then British soldiers shouldn't be charged over the Bloody Sunday massacre.

The fact is that past incidents involving the IRA are still open to investigation and people accused of involvement are still subject to prosecution. In 2008 an Armagh man was charged with the "murder" of a active duty British soldier in 1977. The year before two Tyrone men where charged with the "attempted murder" of another British soldier from 1981. The PSNI has said that wherever evidence exists they will investigate and pursue prosecution and their actions bare this out.

So not only are the "but what about them?" arguments distasteful, they are also completely wrong in their assumptions.

As Irish citizens are being charged and are open to being charged with the "murders" of British soldiers over 30 years previous, then surely we are right to expect British soldiers to be charged with the murders of Irish civilians from 1972, especially when all the evidence is well known?

This should be the closing arguement in this debate. A British crime is solved and the loyalists shout what 'what about the IRA', then a nationalist crime is solved and the nationalists shout 'what about the British army'.

its a bit like a never ending game of tennis where each player keeps shouting its their turn to hit the ball just as its flying toward them.

the book of the troubles is not finished, this is just one more chapter completed. cant we just be thankfull that these types of declarations can now be made in a peacefull and rational enviroment?

[-0-]

The soldiers medals given to them by the Queen need to be taken off them.
The soldiers also need to be held accountable. They should be locked up or hung.

Fratton Fred

[-0-] wrote: »

The soldiers medals given to them by the Queen need to be taken off them.
The soldiers also need to be held accountable. They should be locked up or hung.

what medals were they given?I know Wilford received an OBE 12 months later, but what other medals were given out?

I doubt very much if anyone is going to be hung over this, it's kind of contrary to UK and EU law.

gurramok

'Bloody Sunday soldiers like 'Nazi stormtroopers'
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bloody-sunday-soldiers-like-nazi-stormtroopers-2223356.html

Fallout from the Saville Report on Bloody Sunday continued yesterday with a former senior British army officer describing the soldiers involved in shootings as "more like Nazi stormtroopers than British paratroopers".

Colonel Richard Kemp, who served seven tours of duty in Northern Ireland and commanded British troops in Afghanistan, said his immediate reaction to the report was that "guilty soldiers should be jailed for a long time".

He went on: "I think that the actions we have heard described are much more like the actions of Nazi stormtroopers than British paratroopers."

Well said Richard.