Christening & how much to priest

juleserino

Deise Tom wrote: »

Can i take it that you feel all the bishops are bad men, even the ones that were just preists when the abuse was going on.

Come on, the head of the Catholic church in Ireland swore children to secrecy when it was discovered they were sexually abused. Strange really that a man who covered up such activities now holds the top slot in the corporation. What have your "priests" or "parishoners" said about that. Little enough apparently...what could I do?...just following orders...nothing to do with me...same old ****. The pervert priest was paid out, and he walked free and clear. What did your "priests" have to say about that? They were "priests" that let him go, they were "priests" that swore those children to silence.

AND DON'T FORGET HE IS STILL PRIMATE.

Speaks volumes for your church and all within

Pay with prayers, they need those more than your money

dayshah

juleserino wrote: »

Come on, the head of the Catholic church in Ireland swore children to secrecy when it was discovered they were sexually abused. Strange really that a man who covered up such activities now holds the top slot in the corporation. What have your "priests" or "parishoners" said about that. Little enough apparently...what could I do?...just following orders...nothing to do with me...same old ****. The pervert priest was paid out, and he walked free and clear. What did your "priests" have to say about that? They were "priests" that let him go, they were "priests" that swore those children to silence.

AND DON'T FORGET HE IS STILL PRIMATE.

Speaks volumes for your church and all within

Pay with prayers, they need those more than your money

It wasn't just the priests that knew what was going on, it was society in general. People going to school knew there were certain Brothers not to get caught alone with. It was an open secret.

But if you feel that way why get your child baptised in the first place?

Deise Tom

dayshah wrote: »

It wasn't just the priests that knew what was going on, it was society in general. People going to school knew there were certain Brothers not to get caught alone with. It was an open secret.

But if you feel that way why get your child baptised in the first place?

Exactly. It amases me that people will use the church when they want, for christenings, communions, confirmations and weddings and the rest of the time rip it to pieces. People that do this are people with double standards.

juleserino

dayshah wrote: »

It wasn't just the priests that knew what was going on, it was society in general. People going to school knew there were certain Brothers not to get caught alone with. It was an open secret.

But if you feel that way why get your child baptised in the first place?

And what about the children that didn't have the benefit of such intuition, or were not enamored with such by virtue of their age. These crimes when reported were reported to PRIESTS, BISHOPS, LAYMEN, LAW ENFORCEMENT, and now they have been reported to society at large and still the victims wait ,and they will continue to wait, whilst Ireland looks on and lines up for holy ****ing communion, apparently oblivious to it all.

The irish nation failed these victims and continues to fail them today. What I read here in these posts only serves to confirm that Ireland is a nation that appears happy to bury its head in its arse instead of facing these creatures and holding them ALL to account for their crimes.

Such cowardice together with the apparent acceptance of what went before shines a bright light on a malignant and willfully ignorant population.

I could never indoctrinate my child into a club that continues to advocate the suppression of the evidence of child sexual abuse.

What make you think I would darken the door of a church with my child in tow?

deravarra

juleserino wrote: »

Come on, the head of the Catholic church in Ireland swore children to secrecy when it was discovered they were sexually abused. Strange really that a man who covered up such activities now holds the top slot in the corporation. What have your "priests" or "parishoners" said about that. Little enough apparently...what could I do?...just following orders...nothing to do with me...same old ****. The pervert priest was paid out, and he walked free and clear. What did your "priests" have to say about that? They were "priests" that let him go, they were "priests" that swore those children to silence.

AND DON'T FORGET HE IS STILL PRIMATE.

Speaks volumes for your church and all within

Pay with prayers, they need those more than your money

In all fairness, and without prejudice to the state of mind of those who were abused as children, wouldnt it have been better to report a crime to the gardai and not the church?

Dont be placing ALL the responsibility of nothing being done at the church's feet... sure, they did wrong - but if my child was abused by anyone, I wouldnt go to their boss - I'd be to the guards straight away!

deravarra

juleserino wrote: »

And what about the children that didn't have the benefit of such intuition, or were not enamored with such by virtue of their age. These crimes when reported were reported to PRIESTS, BISHOPS, LAYMEN, LAW ENFORCEMENT, and now they have been reported to society at large and still the victims wait ,and they will continue to wait, whilst Ireland looks on and lines up for holy ****ing communion, apparently oblivious to it all.

The irish nation failed these victims and continues to fail them today. What I read here in these posts only serves to confirm that Ireland is a nation that appears happy to bury its head in its arse instead of facing these creatures and holding them ALL to account for their crimes.

Such cowardice together with the apparent acceptance of what went before shines a bright light on a malignant and willfully ignorant population.

I could never indoctrinate my child into a club that continues to advocate the suppression of the evidence of child sexual abuse.

What make you think I would darken the door of a church with my child in tow?

Do you let your child go to school?

juleserino

deravarra wrote: »

In all fairness, and without prejudice to the state of mind of those who were abused as children, wouldnt it have been better to report a crime to the gardai and not the church?

Dont be placing ALL the responsibility of nothing being done at the church's feet... sure, they did wrong - but if my child was abused by anyone, I wouldnt go to their boss - I'd be to the guards straight away!

You just can't get it, can you. Your comment is clearly indicative of this.

It is all there in black and white. Why don't you go and read the reports. Start with the Ryan report. If you can be bothered looking into it further you might graduate to the Murphy report. There have also been a number of reports out of both Australia and Canada that concern the matter as it pertains to those jurisdictions. The US jurisdiction, strangely enough do not have many reports as such, mostly criminal cases and convictions. You might read those also if you profess to love your church.

There is one report in particular that deals extensively with a number of Australian pedophile priests that the Catholic church saw fit to send to the Polynesian islands following high level canonical investigations that led to the discovery of their sexual misconduct with children in Australia. Those men, if one could refer to them as such, were sent to those islands by the same clergy that investigated and found them guilty of such crimes. They wrought havoc among generations of children and their families on those islands. They were sent by those in authority within the church who knew what could and did take place. Read their stories if you like.

The reports all say the same thing, and they do not say it in sound bites. It has taken tens of thousands of pages to account for what took place. One cannot simply communicate the horror of such in the breadth of a newspaper article, which is obviously all you have read, furthermore such detail as required to document the matter properly would not be fit to print in a newspaper, for fear of upsetting readers. This is a fact.

You want to live in denial, well, no one can cure you of that.

As you say, your own words, "sure they did wrong". It was not just wrong, it was abominable, a travesty.

The defense of your church appears to roll off your tongue. It appears ingrained in you, written into your soul. Love of your God is one thing, however love of your Church and the personalities found within is quite something else. A willingness to protect your faith by virtue of protecting the personalities found within is distasteful and shows your person in a very poor light.

It is only because of people like you that such events were aloud to take place and sadly Ireland appears to be populated by those like you that can say with you "sure they did wrong", as though what they did was of little more consequence than the stealing a loaf of bread from the corner store.

So forgive me for saying this, but **** you. You are not going to read those reports, nor will any other holy roller posting here read them either. You all appear rather too busy getting your seats at the front of the que, genuflecting away, whilst sucking down the body and blood of our lord to the tune of Amhrán na bhFiann. We live in a country that feels no shame. Its a ****ing disgrace.

dayshah

juleserino wrote: »

What make you think I would darken the door of a church with my child in tow?

Someone asked how much to give to the priest for a baptism. Given how you feel you could have advised not to bother with baptism. Instead you advise people to get the baptism done, but to pay with a prayer.

I have no problem at all with people who are angry with the church. I've a problem with people who are two-faced enough to complain about how bad the church is, but still want to make use of Church services.

deisemum

deravarra wrote: »

In all fairness, and without prejudice to the state of mind of those who were abused as children, wouldnt it have been better to report a crime to the gardai and not the church?

Dont be placing ALL the responsibility of nothing being done at the church's feet... sure, they did wrong - but if my child was abused by anyone, I wouldnt go to their boss - I'd be to the guards straight away!

Do you have any idea how the church ruled every aspect in this country? The catholic church had the fear of god put in most lay people including politicians, the garda etc.

Some brave people went to the gardai including gardai who's own sons were abused.

deravarra

juleserino wrote: »

You just can't get it, can you. Your comment is clearly indicative of this.

It is all there in black and white. Why don't you go and read the reports. Start with the Ryan report. If you can be bothered looking into it further you might graduate to the Murphy report. There have also been a number of reports out of both Australia and Canada that concern the matter as it pertains to those jurisdictions. The US jurisdiction, strangely enough do not have many reports as such, mostly criminal cases and convictions. You might read those also if you profess to love your church.

There is one report in particular that deals extensively with a number of Australian pedophile priests that the Catholic church saw fit to send to the Polynesian islands following high level canonical investigations that led to the discovery of their sexual misconduct with children in Australia. Those men, if one could refer to them as such, were sent to those islands by the same clergy that investigated and found them guilty of such crimes. They wrought havoc among generations of children and their families on those islands. They were sent by those in authority within the church who knew what could and did take place. Read their stories if you like.

The reports all say the same thing, and they do not say it in sound bites. It has taken tens of thousands of pages to account for what took place. One cannot simply communicate the horror of such in the breadth of a newspaper article, which is obviously all you have read, furthermore such detail as required to document the matter properly would not be fit to print in a newspaper, for fear of upsetting readers. This is a fact.

You want to live in denial, well, no one can cure you of that.

As you say, your own words, "sure they did wrong". It was not just wrong, it was abominable, a travesty.

The defense of your church appears to roll off your tongue. It appears ingrained in you, written into your soul. Love of your God is one thing, however love of your Church and the personalities found within is quite something else. A willingness to protect your faith by virtue of protecting the personalities found within is distasteful and shows your person in a very poor light.

It is only because of people like you that such events were aloud to take place and sadly Ireland appears to be populated by those like you that can say with you "sure they did wrong", as though what they did was of little more consequence than the stealing a loaf of bread from the corner store.

So forgive me for saying this, but **** you. You are not going to read those reports, nor will any other holy roller posting here read them either. You all appear rather too busy getting your seats at the front of the que, genuflecting away, whilst sucking down the body and blood of our lord to the tune of Amhrán na bhFiann. We live in a country that feels no shame. Its a ****ing disgrace.

The kind of spleen venting and bilious splurge of verbals as above is a sad reflection of the reality of an inability to look at something in an objective manner.

Seeing as you made a personal attack on me, juleserino, let me clarify some FACTS for YOU, and put paid to your nonsensical rant and outrageous assumptions which you so eloquently posted above.

1. You make reference to the "my" church here a good few times ...

"You might read those also if you profess to love your church"

"The defense of your church appears to roll off your tongue. It appears ingrained in you, written into your soul. Love of your God is one thing, however love of your Church and the personalities found within is quite something else. A willingness to protect your faith by virtue of protecting the personalities found within is distasteful and shows your person in a very poor light. "

"You all appear rather too busy getting your seats at the front of the que, genuflecting away, whilst sucking down the body and blood of our lord to the tune of Amhrán na bhFiann."

I refer to my posting in comment #74 above.

"better stop there, or they'll make out that we're in the brothers or the nuns lol ...

that would be difficult for me - since they dont take muslims ..."

I am neither a catholic nor a christian - but a muslim. That would make all the above references to me and "my church" a nonsense. I have stated this a number of times across boards, in a few different threads. Perhaps before making assumptions, you should check out your facts!

2. You point out that I said what happened to the children at the hands of priests, and the subsequent attempts at covering it up was wrong. Please refer to the other statement I made in this thread on this matter.

I said in comment #85:
" ...the whole situation made even worse by the woefully poor handling of such heinous crimes by those in charge!

The vast majority of these priests (the good ones) are paying for the crimes of the bishops who did nothing to protect the vulnerable"

and again in comment #91, in reply to another comment:
"
Can i take it that you feel all the bishops are bad men, even the ones that were just preists when the abuse was going on.
No, just the ones who sat back and did nothing, but colluded with authorities, both within and without the catholic church to conceal the most heinous of crimes perpetrated against the most vulnerable in society - the very ones they should have been protecting."

My position on csa by priests and its handling by the authorities, both civil and church has been made VERY clear to by these two statements.

3. I have read segments of both the Murphy and Ryan reports. I do not need to read them in full to understand the nature of what went on. Suggesting that I do need to is absurd, and Im sure you wouldnt suggest that of anyone who was as equally bilious in their attitude towards the RC church as you appear to be.

So, I would like an apology for the accusations you threw on my lap.

Withdraw the statements you made that suggest I stand in defence of the catholic church, and do not see what went on as anything more than "stealing a loaf of bread from the local shop".

Withdraw the following comment about me: "A willingness to protect your faith by virtue of protecting the personalities found within is distasteful and shows your person in a very poor light."

Im not suggesting you do so - I am demanding it!

dayshah

deisemum wrote: »

Do you have any idea how the church ruled every aspect in this country? The catholic church had the fear of god put in most lay people including politicians, the garda etc.

Some brave people went to the gardai including gardai who's own sons were abused.

Someone described the abuse as our holocaust, in that lots of people knew what was going on but kept their heads down.

An excellent film on the matter is Doubt with Meryll Streep.

Pedophiles will try put themselves in a position where they have access to children. They will try get jobs as swimming coaches and so on.

There are good and bad priests. Some people want their children baptised, others don't. I just think if someone gets their child baptised or confirmed they should treat the priest with respect. If they don't want to take part in church services, fair enough.

I don't like the Orange Order. If someone from the Orange Order invited me to some Orange Order dinner I wouldn't go to the dinner, eat the food, and then be rude to them. I just wouldn't go in the first place.

juleserino

deisemum wrote: »

Do you have any idea how the church ruled every aspect in this country? The catholic church had the fear of god put in most lay people including politicians, the garda etc.

Deravarra. You will find the truth of this statement is born out in the reports. The same reports of which you have read segments. The same reports you state you will not read in full. The truth is often BILIOUS and at times hard to swallow regardless of the nature of its expression.

You may profess all you like that you are NOT a catholic, however this fails to negate the fact that you have little or no comprehension of Irish culture. Your comments bear this out. Furthermore, you are ill-informed, and are so by choice.

Why should I apologize to you. Should I be sorry because you are ignorant, for this I am sorry, sorry for you. No doubt, the "**** you" part of my expression was most likely uncalled for, however as for the rest....

juleserino

deravarra wrote: »

Withdraw the statements you made that suggest I stand in defence of the catholic church, and do not see what went on as anything more than "stealing a loaf of bread from the local shop".

Your words:"Sure they did wrong"

Withdraw the following comment about me: "A willingness to protect A faith by virtue of protecting the personalities found within is distasteful and shows your person in a very poor light."

Im not suggesting you do so - I am demanding it!

Replaced "your faith" with "A faith", happy? Probably not

deravarra

juleserino wrote: »

Replaced "your faith" with "A faith", happy? Probably not

Gutless and spineless. Willing to slander me and accuse me without checking your FACTS.

Now, hop along and never address me again.

takola

I think this thread has more than run it's course.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and nobody likes to have somebody elses' shoved down their throat as we've seen some people do in this thread.

This thread was never the place to start an argument about the abuse scandels. It was a simple question, how much should the OP give the priest for a christening. That's all.