Praying for the lost

wolfsbane · 11-06-2010 7:02pm #1

Arising from the discussions on free-will, this question should make us either reflect on our theology or our practice - or both.

Q. Do you pray for the lost, and if so, what do you ask God to do for them?

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Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

Fanny Cradock · 11-06-2010 11:38pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Arising from the discussions on free-will, this question should make us either reflect on our theology or our practice - or both.

Q. Do you pray for the lost, and if so, what do you ask God to do for them?

I assume you mean those who are still alive?

PDN · 11-06-2010 11:39pm

I pray that God will put people across their paths who will confront them with the Gospel.

philologos · 12-06-2010 12:35am

I do so occasionally, although I really should more. Generally I pray that the Lord will help them to understand how important it all really is, and to find God, and to learn more about Jesus Christ. I pray that their lives will be transformed, and that they might continue to grow in the faith.

antiskeptic · 12-06-2010 1:36pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Arising from the discussions on free-will, this question should make us either reflect on our theology or our practice - or both.

Q. Do you pray for the lost, and if so, what do you ask God to do for them?

___________________________________________________________________
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

I pray that God won't yet give up on them yet. I don't pray for healing or happiness or anything that might bring succour outside that to be found in God. I pray his will be done.

dermothickey · 13-06-2010 8:59am

it is good to pray that ALL beings Open their Hearts to God. Believers and non-believers alike. Plenty people believe yet still are too busy in their own emotions and prejudices etc. God is always waiting

wolfsbane · 13-06-2010 5:54pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I assume you mean those who are still alive?

Sorry about that - Yes.
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1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

homer911 · 13-06-2010 6:22pm

I pray that God will soften their hearts..

wolfsbane · 13-06-2010 6:35pm

A lot of good requests there. Mostly that God would help them towards conversion.

But do any of you pray that God save them? The nearest to that seemed to be dermothickey's Open their Hearts to God.

When I pray, and most of the Christians in the churches I have experienced, we ask God to save so and so, mentioning individuals by name. Here it is Wicknight, Sam Vimes, and several others we have engaged in debate. I don't want them merely to be challenged by the gospel, I want them converted by it - so that's what I ask for.

Is this not in line with Paul's prayer for his fellow-countrymen?
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

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Fanny Cradock · 13-06-2010 6:43pm

How do you square this with predestination?

philologos · 13-06-2010 6:51pm

^^ One could also ask how one squares it will free will. One is effectively asking for God to intervene in peoples lives, and affect their choices.

wolfsbane · 13-06-2010 7:13pm

Jakkass wrote: »

^^ One could also ask how one squares it will free will. One is effectively asking for God to intervene in peoples lives, and affect their choices.

Yes, that is the reason I'm asking the question. Do you pray like a Calvinist (ask God to save the individual) or do you believe He can only influence him (and so you pray to God to bring the gospel to him)?

And regardless of your theology, what do you actually ask? I've heard many I know who would choke if they were called Calvinists, who nevertheless earnestly ask God to save their lost family and friends.
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John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

philologos · 13-06-2010 7:24pm

I find the question of Calvinism and Arminianism very difficult. I can find passages that could refer to both very easily. It's something that I am going to really need to think about more.

wolfsbane · 13-06-2010 7:28pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

How do you square this with predestination?

It fits perfectly with predestination.

God has predestined the ends - the salvation of His people. He has also predestined the means - our prayers, the preaching of the gospel, every event and influence that brings the gospel to them and that prepares them to gladly receive it.

So I have no hesitation asking God to save the lost. I know He will save His people. I know He has told me to pray for all. I know He often answers Yes to my prayers. So I have good encouragement, especially when I find my prayers for an individual being greatly helped by Someone other than myself.

I have known at times when prayer was about to be answered, such assurance that was given about it. I'm sure that is true for some of you too.
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James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

wolfsbane · 13-06-2010 7:35pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I find the question of Calvinism and Arminianism very difficult. I can find passages that could refer to both very easily. It's something that I am going to really need to think about more.

Yes, it is a matter of reconciling the many passages on 'both sides' of the free-will debate. I have found it much easier to do so from the Calvinist position than any other.

Our brethren who differ have to explain not only the opposing passages, but the practical effects - like this one on prayer for the lost. I think practical effects are a helpful way to test doctrine.
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John 17:2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Fanny Cradock · 13-06-2010 10:23pm

Jakkass wrote: »

^^ One could also ask how one squares it will free will. One is effectively asking for God to intervene in peoples lives, and affect their choices.

Extending the above logic out, any interaction where one person influences another - from a goalie stopping a certain goal to one person attempting to encourage/ dissuade another with regards to decisions - could be considered a reduction of free will. I don't think this is so. But perhaps this is because we set different boundaries on freedom of choice and what constitutes free will. Besides we are talking about truth here - God making himself known to somebody. I would argue that such an epiphany is liberating if it reveals an underlying reality. The author of John said it better: And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

PDN · 14-06-2010 11:55am

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, that is the reason I'm asking the question. Do you pray like a Calvinist (ask God to save the individual) or do you believe He can only influence him (and so you pray to God to bring the gospel to him)?

And regardless of your theology, what do you actually ask? I've heard many I know who would choke if they were called Calvinists, who nevertheless earnestly ask God to save their lost family and friends.

If you're a Calvinist then surely you believe that they are either predestined to be saved or predestined to be damned - so not much point in praying about it?

antiskeptic · 14-06-2010 11:59am

PDN wrote: »

If you're a Calvinist then surely you believe that they are either predestined to be saved or predestined to be damned - so not much point in praying about it?

You could pray that God unpack their election sooner.

antiskeptic · 14-06-2010 12:04pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

God has predestined the ends - the salvation of His people.

So that is sure to come about

He has also predestined the means - our prayers, the preaching of the gospel,

So those prayers are sure to come about too. Because if those prayers weren't prayed, then some who God predestined to be saved wouldn't be saved.

Which appears to mean you have no choice but to pray those prayers (because God predestined it). Which means there is no "you" as such in this area (in the sense of you having a will that is anything but a puppet of God's will).

.

wolfsbane · 14-06-2010 7:37pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

So that is sure to come about

So those prayers are sure to come about too. Because if those prayers weren't prayed, then some who God predestined to be saved wouldn't be saved.

Which appears to mean you have no choice but to pray those prayers (because God predestined it). Which means there is no "you" as such in this area (in the sense of you having a will that is anything but a puppet of God's will).

.

I am glad to will and do God's good pleasure:
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If that makes me a robot, I'm a self-aware and happy one!

New Covenant Robots Rule! I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
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John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

wolfsbane · 14-06-2010 7:40pm

PDN wrote: »

If you're a Calvinist then surely you believe that they are either predestined to be saved or predestined to be damned - so not much point in praying about it?

But God has ordained that prayer be a means of their salvation. Just as is conviction, repentance and faith.
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John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Zombrex · 15-06-2010 2:15pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

But God has ordained that prayer be a means of their salvation. Just as is conviction, repentance and faith.
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John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Do you believe then that you don't have a choice to pray for them or not, that if it is predestined that they will be saved it is also predestined that you will pray for them to be saved?

I would wonder then what really is the purpose of prayer?

wolfsbane · 16-06-2010 8:03pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Do you believe then that you don't have a choice to pray for them or not, that if it is predestined that they will be saved it is also predestined that you will pray for them to be saved?

I would wonder then what really is the purpose of prayer?

The purpose of prayer is to bring the prayer to a deeper faith in God. It is both a conversation between lovers and trust expressed in petitions asked for. It subdues the sin of independency from God and strengthens assurance of His love.

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Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

PDN · 16-06-2010 9:56pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

The purpose of prayer is to bring the prayer to a deeper faith in God. It is both a conversation between lovers and trust expressed in petitions asked for. It subdues the sin of independency from God and strengthens assurance of His love.

So you believe that you will pray as a Calvinist because God predestined you to do so, and I will pray as an Arminian because God predestined me to do so? Yes?

Zombrex · 16-06-2010 11:34pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

The purpose of prayer is to bring the prayer to a deeper faith in God. It is both a conversation between lovers and trust expressed in petitions asked for. It subdues the sin of independency from God and strengthens assurance of His love.

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Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

How does that fit with pre-destination?

If you choose not to pray does that mess up God's predetermined salvation? Or can you not do this, a.k.a you praying is itself predetermined.

Just curious, I don't know much about the Calvinist view point, though to be honest it seems the most consistent with the nature of God.

Soul Winner · 17-06-2010 12:25am

PDN wrote: »

So you believe that you will pray as a Calvinist because God predestined you to do so, and I will pray as an Arminian because God predestined me to do so? Yes?

What about me? Was I predestined to be a royal pain in the *ss?

antiskeptic · 17-06-2010 2:52pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

I am glad to will and do God's good pleasure

If not sinlessly perfect, then I imagine there are plenty of times when you are not glad to will and to do Gods good pleasure. Am I to take this to mean that God isn't working in you to will and to do according to his good pleasure at these times? That he's let his foot off the gas - so to speak - and you slide inevitably and robotically into sin?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If that makes me a robot, I'm a self-aware and happy one!

It's just that Paul uses this languge of exhortation all the time. As if our "working out" what God is "working in" was something we had a choice in. You might be "self-aware" but the issue here is your ability to chose or not.

If predestined to pray/not pray then there is no "you" - just a "self-aware", "happy" but unchoosing robot.

If choosing to pray/not to pray then the prayers cannot be predestined and neither can a salvation which utilises prayer in the mechanism

It seems to me that being predestined to choose is an oxymoron.

wolfsbane · 20-06-2010 7:54pm

PDN wrote: »

So you believe that you will pray as a Calvinist because God predestined you to do so, and I will pray as an Arminian because God predestined me to do so? Yes?

Yes, but any sinful thing will be by His permissive will, not His prescriptive will. He has predestined all things that come to pass, but not all things are good in His sight - He permits the latter to achieve His perfect, holy ends.
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Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

wolfsbane · 20-06-2010 8:16pm

antiskeptic said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I am glad to will and do God's good pleasure
If not sinlessly perfect, then I imagine there are plenty of times when you are not glad to will and to do Gods good pleasure. Am I to take this to mean that God isn't working in you to will and to do according to his good pleasure at these times? That he's let his foot off the gas - so to speak - and you slide inevitably and robotically into sin?

God lets me sin from time to time; for my humility no doubt. So He is still working in me to will and do of His good pleasure, even though in those times it is not in the immediate context but in the ultimate one.

Quote:
If that makes me a robot, I'm a self-aware and happy one!
It's just that Paul uses this languge of exhortation all the time. As if our "working out" what God is "working in" was something we had a choice in. You might be "self-aware" but the issue here is your ability to chose or not.

If predestined to pray/not pray then there is no "you" - just a "self-aware", "happy" but unchoosing robot.

I disagree. The new 'me' is just as real as the old one. The new me is the old me washed and renewed by the Holy Spirit, the old will that served me (and Satan) overthrown and the new will that serves God in charge.

You seem to suggest that any will that cannot chose to renounce the faith is 'robotic' - will we be robotic in heaven? Or might there be a new rebellion there in a million or so years?

If choosing to pray/not to pray then the prayers cannot be predestined and neither can a salvation which utilises prayer in the mechanism

It seems to me that being predestined to choose is an oxymoron.

In the matter of salvation, one chooses what one wants. If one hates God, one will always ultimately choose to reject Him. If one loves God, one will always ultimately choose to accept Him. ALWAYS.

Does that mean the choice is not free, from the heart? God predestines my acceptance and ensures it by giving me a new heart. So my choice is both free (from the heart) and predestined.
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Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

wolfsbane · 20-06-2010 8:20pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

What about me? Was I predestined to be a royal pain in the *ss?

Yes, but only permissively.

I'm sure God has much greater things predestined for you.

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Romans 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

wolfsbane · 20-06-2010 8:40pm

Wicknight wrote: »

How does that fit with pre-destination?

If you choose not to pray does that mess up God's predetermined salvation? Or can you not do this, a.k.a you praying is itself predetermined.

Just curious, I don't know much about the Calvinist view point, though to be honest it seems the most consistent with the nature of God.

Nothing I do can change God's predetermined purpose. All that I do serves that end, whether I do good or evil. It does not make my evil right or me less guilty, but if I am a true believer it does not disqualify me from heaven either. It will lead to chastisement in this life, even the severest chastisement if I am slow to repent. But turn from the sin I will, or be taken from it. God judges His people in this life that they will not be condemned in the next:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

My failing to pray is included in all this.

And, Yes, an honest reader of the Bible will be struck with its teaching that God is absolutely sovereign.

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Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Zombrex · 20-06-2010 9:15pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Nothing I do can change God's predetermined purpose.

Doesn't that include not praying?

If praying can't change anything it seems some what pointless.

PDN · 21-06-2010 7:58am

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, but any sinful thing will be by His permissive will, not His prescriptive will. He has predestined all things that come to pass, but not all things are good in His sight - He permits the latter to achieve His perfect, holy ends.

So, according to your beliefs, He predestines all things to happen and we are powerless to change that course of events.

However, you draw a distinction between His prescriptive will (where He predestined us to do nice stuff and we have no power to do otherwise) and His permissive will (where He predestined us to do nasty stuff and we have no power to do otherwise).

Do you understand why it sounds as if you are simply engaging in semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that your theological system makes God the author of sin?

wolfsbane · 22-06-2010 7:29pm

PDN wrote: »

So, according to your beliefs, He predestines all things to happen and we are powerless to change that course of events.

However, you draw a distinction between His prescriptive will (where He predestined us to do nice stuff and we have no power to do otherwise) and His permissive will (where He predestined us to do nasty stuff and we have no power to do otherwise).

Do you understand why it sounds as if you are simply engaging in semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that your theological system makes God the author of sin?

It may sound like that, but so must any account that takes in the Biblical precepts that God has ordained all things that come to pass, yet He is not the author of sin.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

The Bible is full of God's sovereignty in both allowing evil to happen (when He could have stopped it) and directly causing good to happen. ALL of it works toward His predetermined end - the salvation of His people and the glory of His name:
Job 1:9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 1:20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said:

“ Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the LORD.”
22 In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

His work in causing men to savingly believe is positive, changing them from the sinners they were:
Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”

But His work in causing men to do specific evil is permissive, a channelling of their evil thoughts in one direction and not another:
Revelation 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

John 19:10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”
11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

Perhaps the supreme text for this teaching:
Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
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John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

wolfsbane · 22-06-2010 7:34pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Doesn't that include not praying?

If praying can't change anything it seems some what pointless.

God changes things, not our prayers. But He has ordained we pray for the things He is has (unknown to us) ordained to happen. Since I see the direct connection between believing prayer and God's power manifested, I gladly pray.
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Matthew 6:8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.

Zombrex · 22-06-2010 8:00pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

God changes things, not our prayers. But He has ordained we pray for the things He is has (unknown to us) ordained to happen. Since I see the direct connection between believing prayer and God's power manifested, I gladly pray.

Isn't your act of praying a "thing"?

Or do you mean in a general sense that God has ordained that we will pray, but doesn't actually ordain individual instances, ie Wolfsbane will pray at 7.35 on Friday

This is what I'm not following (and I suspect is also PDN's query).

You appear to be saying that God predetermines everything, every action every act ("God has ordained all things that come to pass")

But you also seem to be saying that we are free to choose to do what we wish at any particular moment in time ("God's sovereignty in both allowing evil to happen (when He could have stopped it) and directly causing good to happen"), including sinning or not praying or praying if we want to.

If God is not directly making everything happen (ie making you pray at 7.35 on Friday, or making you have lunch, or making you clean your bed), then I'm not following how you say he ordains everything that comes to pass.

And if he is doing all this then surely that means we have no free will we are simply doing what God decided we would do millennia ago?

lmaopml · 23-06-2010 1:18pm

Hi Wicknight,

There are a number of views on predestination. Every Christian believes in some form of predestination philosophy, and some in a more predeterminism - God's foreknowledge is all over the bible....God's omniscience is absolute, the 'alpha' and 'omega'...

The issue is the very nature of the 'predestination' / 'predeterminism' itself, in relation to God's 'foreknowledge', whether his foreknowledge effects our 'freewill' ( if we have it ) and if it does then ? - and if it doesn't ? then?

There are a number of different philosophies that cross over at some points, but seperate entirely at others, each one is based on what the bible has to say....

Most denominations would agree that there is most definitely an 'elect' who will finally be 'saved', that not 'all' will be 'saved'....but nobody knows 'who' as God is the final judge - and that's outside our scope in linear time...

I don't believe any Christian believes it's necessary to actually believe in one or other philosophy to be 'saved'? ( I don't think )...so it's an aside to actually being saved. However, some philosophies that, effect the author of sin, or whether 'all' are called by God.....have some mind bending philosophical crash points! St. Augustine, which I believe is where the debate started ( correct me if I'm wrong..lol ) and the later thomist and molinist views give some insight and understanding..

wolfsbane · 24-06-2010 9:16pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Isn't your act of praying a "thing"?

Or do you mean in a general sense that God has ordained that we will pray, but doesn't actually ordain individual instances, ie Wolfsbane will pray at 7.35 on Friday

This is what I'm not following (and I suspect is also PDN's query).

You appear to be saying that God predetermines everything, every action every act ("God has ordained all things that come to pass")

But you also seem to be saying that we are free to choose to do what we wish at any particular moment in time ("God's sovereignty in both allowing evil to happen (when He could have stopped it) and directly causing good to happen"), including sinning or not praying or praying if we want to.

If God is not directly making everything happen (ie making you pray at 7.35 on Friday, or making you have lunch, or making you clean your bed), then I'm not following how you say he ordains everything that comes to pass.

And if he is doing all this then surely that means we have no free will we are simply doing what God decided we would do millennia ago?

God has ordained all that will happen - the roll of every grain of sand, etc.

He moves people to do good, He constrains them in the bad they choose to do - nothing happens that He has not predetermined.

Man's will is free to choose according to his nature - but God also acts upon their minds that they freely choose what He has determined. The desire of the heart causes the will to choose.

It has the same outcome as if no free will existed, but that does not mean the individual has not actively participated in the choosing. God's ends are achieved and the individual receives the reward/punishment according to their choice.
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Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

wolfsbane · 24-06-2010 9:25pm

Any confirmation/change of mind about what we can pray for in relation to the salvation of men?

'Father, save Joe' or must we stop at 'Father, help Joe see clearly so that he can choose to be saved'?

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Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

PDN · 24-06-2010 9:26pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

God has ordained all that will happen - the roll of every grain of sand, etc.

In which case any reference to His 'permissive will' is sleight of hand. According to you He has ordained every evil act, every rape of a child, every murder. He has not just 'permitted' them - He has ordained them.

Zombrex · 25-06-2010 8:17am

wolfsbane wrote: »

God has ordained all that will happen - the roll of every grain of sand, etc.

He moves people to do good, He constrains them in the bad they choose to do - nothing happens that He has not predetermined.

The bit I've highlighted is the bit I'm not following.

Does God's ordaination (sp?) not include the choices we make themselves?

So if I choose to rape someone that is because God has pre-ordained that I will?

Or are our choices different to God's predestination and it is just the acts that God allows to happen or not happen, ie I choose to rape someone but for some reason I'm stopped because God does not allow it?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Man's will is free to choose according to his nature - but God also acts upon their minds that they freely choose what He has determined. The desire of the heart causes the will to choose.

Freely choosing what He has determined seems like an oxymoron.

wolfsbane wrote: »

It has the same outcome as if no free will existed, but that does not mean the individual has not actively participated in the choosing.

To me it would imply it does. If we are all following a script predetermined by God since the beginning of time, then none of us would seem to be participating in choices, merely carrying out the predetermined actions, like actors on a stage.

wolfsbane · 26-06-2010 8:38pm

PDN wrote: »

In which case any reference to His 'permissive will' is sleight of hand. According to you He has ordained every evil act, every rape of a child, every murder. He has not just 'permitted' them - He has ordained them.

Not if He ordains them by permitting them. As per the text below:
___________________________________________________________________
Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

wolfsbane · 26-06-2010 8:50pm

Wicknight said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
God has ordained all that will happen - the roll of every grain of sand, etc.

He moves people to do good, He constrains them in the bad they choose to do - nothing happens that He has not predetermined.
The bit I've highlighted is the bit I'm not following.

Does God's ordaination (sp?) not include the choices we make themselves?

So if I choose to rape someone that is because God has pre-ordained that I will?

Or are our choices different to God's predestination and it is just the acts that God allows to happen or not happen, ie I choose to rape someone but for some reason I'm stopped because God does not allow it?

Let's say you desire to rape someone, but God has determined that will not happen. He could construct the circumstances so that you will fail in any attempt: she is never where you could catch her, or you are run over by a bus, for example. Or He could remove the thought from your mind. Or He could allow the thought to remain but fill you with such fear that you never act on it. And so on. All of those options are themselves what God has fore-ordained/predestined, as well as the end result (no rape).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Man's will is free to choose according to his nature - but God also acts upon their minds that they freely choose what He has determined. The desire of the heart causes the will to choose.
Freely choosing what He has determined seems like an oxymoron.

OK - but its not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
It has the same outcome as if no free will existed, but that does not mean the individual has not actively participated in the choosing.
To me it would imply it does. If we are all following a script predetermined by God since the beginning of time, then none of us would seem to be participating in choices, merely carrying out the predetermined actions, like actors on a stage.

Your evil desire to rape was not implanted by God. It is of yourself and Satan. God permits or not, and that finalises the 'script'.
_________________________________________________________________
Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

patrickk · 27-06-2010 3:09pm

There is a lot of people depressed now and feeling lost.Ive been feeling lost many times in my life am no saint by far but I do say that praying the rosary has helped me continue to lift depression from heart and that feeling of lost .We all know that drugs(prescribed or otherwise) and alcohol are only very temporary release and having said that I believe God has blessed the medical field with many drugs that save people from suicide and alleviate symptoms of bipolar disorder .God will always promote life He wants us to live as long as we can in this world to feel the joy ,happiness in life and also experience sadness and pain .I dont think anyone will disagree with me when I say without experiencing sadness we dont appreciate joy so much .God wants us to be happy but He will show us many things in life so we can raise our hearts to Him and praise Him when our hearts are joyful.
One last thing I believe very strongly in the Rosary.The Rosary has been said to have helped many people down the centuries get through many difficulties in life .The same applies still.The Rosary has helped me go many times from feeling lost to back in touch with God .A website I would use to get to know how to say it again as I had forgotten it is here,God bless you all ,Peace to you all and for all your hearts,I hope you feel the Love of God and Our Lady every day:

www.comepraytherosary.org

Zombrex · 27-06-2010 4:28pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Wicknight said:

Let's say you desire to rape someone, but God has determined that will not happen. He could construct the circumstances so that you will fail in any attempt: she is never where you could catch her, or you are run over by a bus, for example. Or He could remove the thought from your mind. Or He could allow the thought to remain but fill you with such fear that you never act on it. And so on. All of those options are themselves what God has fore-ordained/predestined, as well as the end result (no rape).

True, but the issue is if God fore-ordains/predetermines everything then does he not predetermine that at some point I will desire to rape someone?

wolfsbane wrote: »

OK - but its not.

Ok, put it another way, how does the opposite what he has predetermined come about? And if it can't how are we free to pick an out come out of possible futures?

Say God has predetermined that on Sept 5th 2012 at 10.55 I will have a strong desire to rape the girl sitting next to me on the bus, and he has also predetermined that I listen/give in to this desire and will rape her after she gets off the bus, rather than say try to resist this desire and go seek psychological help.

Firstly, if it is preordained that I will feel this way, how then can I not have a strong desire to rape the girl sitting next to me on the bus? Does this not make God responsible for my desire to rape someone (ie my desire to commit evil)?

Secondly if I still do have this desire how can I choose to ignore my desire and not rape her if God has already decided I will? Does that not make God responsible, forcing me as it were, for raping her (ie my choice to act on my desire to commit evil)?

I'm not quite sure how there can be a sense of free will or a sense of responsibility if everything, such as how we feel or what we do is predetermined by God?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Your evil desire to rape was not implanted by God.

I'm not sure what you mean by implanted. If it is not determined by God then God does not predetermine everything

If he doesn't predetermine our feelings, or our desires, the state we are in at any given moment, then there is no issue (at least as regard to the desire bit, still a bit of a problem with the acting on desire bit). But it seems to contradict your earlier statements that everything is predetermined by God.

wolfsbane · 27-06-2010 6:32pm

Wicknight said:

True, but the issue is if God fore-ordains/predetermines everything then does he not predetermine that at some point I will desire to rape someone?

Only permissively - the intention arose in you, and God decided it would be allowed to happen.

Ok, put it another way, how does the opposite what he has predetermined come about? And if it can't how are we free to pick an out come out of possible futures?

It can't. You may be permitted to totally desire and work for a different outcome, but it will not come to pass.

Say God has predetermined that on Sept 5th 2012 at 10.55 I will have a strong desire to rape the girl sitting next to me on the bus, and he has also predetermined that I listen/give in to this desire and will rape her after she gets off the bus, rather than say try to resist this desire and go seek psychological help.

Firstly, if it is preordained that I will feel this way, how then can I not have a strong desire to rape the girl sitting next to me on the bus? Does this not make God responsible for my desire to rape someone (ie my desire to commit evil)?

God did not implant your evil desire - it and many others were going to naturally arise in your heart because of your fallen nature. God selected the one that would be permitted. He did not make an innocent you desire evil - you happily did that yourself. IF you had desired good things, God would not have selected a bad thing for you to do instead.

Secondly if I still do have this desire how can I choose to ignore my desire and not rape her if God has already decided I will? Does that not make God responsible, forcing me as it were, for raping her (ie my choice to act on my desire to commit evil)?

No, it is only your actual intent we are speaking of, not the various temptations that arise for us all.

I'm not quite sure how there can be a sense of free will or a sense of responsibility if everything, such as how we feel or what we do is predetermined by God?

I appreciate the difficulty in distinguishing the threads. The key is remembering that the evil desires arise from within us and are not given by God. He selects what will be permitted to be put into action.

I'm not sure what you mean by implanted. If it is not determined by God then God does not predetermine everything

If he doesn't predetermine our feelings, or our desires, the state we are in at any given moment, then there is no issue (at least as regard to the desire bit, still a bit of a problem with the acting on desire bit). But it seems to contradict your earlier statements that everything is predetermined by God.

I'm sorry if I was unclear. Which desire is permitted to be acted on is predetermined by God - but God is not the creator of the sinful desire. The sinner's heart is evil, so evil desires must arise. God determines which, if any, will be permitted to happen.
_________________________________________________________________
Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

Zombrex · 27-06-2010 6:44pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

It can't. You may be permitted to totally desire and work for a different outcome, but it will not come to pass.

But does God choose what I desire to do? Or does this come about independently to God's predetermination? That is really the core of the issue.

If I desire to rape a school girl is that part of God's predetermination of the universe, or is it something that comes about independently to God?

Just trying to clarify that point.

wolfsbane wrote: »

God did not implant your evil desire - it and many others were going to naturally arise in your heart because of your fallen nature.

So that is something that happens outside of God's influence, his predetermination?

wolfsbane wrote: »

He did not make an innocent you desire evil - you happily did that yourself.

Thats fine, but I hope you agree that means God does not predetermine everything. Systems, such as my evil nature, operate independently to God's predetermination.

wolfsbane wrote: »

No, it is only your actual intent we are speaking of, not the various temptations that arise for us all.

So you are saying God does not predetermine what we want to do, nor does he make us do evil things we don't want to do, he simply some times allows us to do evil thing we wish to do and some times he doesn't?

Would that be an accurate reflection of your position?

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm sorry if I was unclear. Which desire is permitted to be acted on is predetermined by God - but God is not the creator of the sinful desire. The sinner's heart is evil, so evil desires must arise. God determines which, if any, will be permitted to happen.

I get you now, this was just not clear from the original idea that God predetermines everything. I think the confusion was what was meant by everything. If I'm following you meant everything we do, rather than everything we do, feel, wish, desire etc.

I think you and PDN are far closer in theological position that originally thought.

wolfsbane · 27-06-2010 6:45pm

patrickk wrote: »

There is a lot of people depressed now and feeling lost.Ive been feeling lost many times in my life am no saint by far but I do say that praying the rosary has helped me continue to lift depression from heart and that feeling of lost .We all know that drugs(prescribed or otherwise) and alcohol are only very temporary release and having said that I believe God has blessed the medical field with many drugs that save people from suicide and alleviate symptoms of bipolar disorder .God will always promote life He wants us to live as long as we can in this world to feel the joy ,happiness in life and also experience sadness and pain .I dont think anyone will disagree with me when I say without experiencing sadness we dont appreciate joy so much .God wants us to be happy but He will show us many things in life so we can raise our hearts to Him and praise Him when our hearts are joyful.
One last thing I believe very strongly in the Rosary.The Rosary has been said to have helped many people down the centuries get through many difficulties in life .The same applies still.The Rosary has helped me go many times from feeling lost to back in touch with God .A website I would use to get to know how to say it again as I had forgotten it is here,God bless you all ,Peace to you all and for all your hearts,I hope you feel the Love of God and Our Lady every day:

www.comepraytherosary.org

I sympathise with your sorrow and pain. But repetitive prayers are not the real answer - they are just psychological tools for easing the symptoms. Dealing with the cause requires sincere prayer to God that He would help.

The Rosary fails that on two counts:
1. It is the vain repetition the Lord warns against:
Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
2. It glorifies a human as it glories God - something forbidden by God. Mary is our sister, not a semi-Goddess. We must pray to God alone.

Let us heed the Lord's call to the needy:
Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

PDN · 28-06-2010 5:56pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm sorry if I was unclear. Which desire is permitted to be acted on is predetermined by God - but God is not the creator of the sinful desire. The sinner's heart is evil, so evil desires must arise. God determines which, if any, will be permitted to happen.

So, just to clarify, if I have an evil thought then that is entirely caused by my freewill? It was not predestined for me to have that thought?

wolfsbane · 28-06-2010 6:52pm

PDN wrote: »

So, just to clarify, if I have an evil thought then that is entirely caused by my freewill? It was not predestined for me to have that thought?

Essentially, Yes. Moral evil does not come from God.

But to be more precise with your question - the evil thought is caused by your nature and its desires. God has predestined whether or not you will be allowed to think it, and then whether or not you will be allowed to act upon it. He did not make/predestine your nature to be evil.
___________________________________________________________________
Ecclesiastes 7:29 Truly, this only I have found:
That God made man upright,
But they have sought out many schemes.”

PDN · 28-06-2010 6:54pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Essentially, Yes. Moral evil does not come from God.

But to be more precise with your question - the evil thought is caused by your nature and its desires. God has predestined whether or not you will be allowed to think it, and then whether or not you will be allowed to act upon it. He did not make/predestine your nature to be evil.

So, if I act upon that thought, let's say I kick a cat, is that solely down to my free will or has God presdestined it? (I'm not asking if He permitted it - but if He predestined it).

Praying for the lost

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