If God asked you to kill your son.........

strobe

That's right...I'm going all Abraham/Isaac on this thread.

So, pretty straight forward question. If God got in contact and commanded you to kill your son/daughter/pet dog/uncle. Would you do it? I mean, it is God giving a direct order, he decides what is good/moral and what is bad/evil. He has decided this is what he wants to happen. He has confirmed that he is genuinly God and he definately wants you to do it.... Would you do it?

KTRIC

Could God not do it him / herself ?


Seems a tad lazy to be honest :rolleyes:

strobe

No KTRIC, sometimes God gets stuck in himself, but I mean if you have an ant farm you don't take a straw and dig the tunnels out for them.......









(But facetiousness aside, I am genuinly interested in the Christians response to the scenario)

ISAW

strobe wrote: »

That's right...I'm going all Abraham/Isaac on this thread.

So, pretty straight forward question. If God got in contact and commanded you to kill your son/daughter/pet dog/uncle. Would you do it? I mean, it is God giving a direct order, he decides what is good/moral and what is bad/evil. He has decided this is what he wants to happen. He has confirmed that he is genuinly God and he definately wants you to do it.... Would you do it?

this seems very like the trick questions the POharisees used to try to catch Jesus out.
If so it tells more about the questioner than asks a question.

Anyway, given you mention Abram and Isaac (who carried the wood of his own destruction up a mount) you are aware that God didn't intend to kill Isaac and actually prevented Abram from so doing? Assuming Abram had the confirmation he still didn't know that God had no intention of killing his son. when I state "his" son the whole story begins to take on a deeper prophetic message doesn't it?

Also, how do you know it is God and this is what he wants?
you see is that not like saying people don't have free will and like just obeying the laws of physics they obey God's will. But they don't have to.

Also you are into the logical contradiction of God telling someone to do something "wrong" while at the same time defining God as someone not being able to do wrong. It reduces to to "How can someone who can never lie tell a lie?" Is it reasonable that God would do that? Christians would suggest that it is not reasonable so the scenario would not arise. As can be seen in the Abram case, God had no intention of seeing the son be killed by his own father.

PDN

No I wouldn't kill my son.

Then again, I haven't had the kind of face to face chats that Abraham had with God, nor did my wife give birth in her 90s etc.

What I do have, that Abraham didn't have, is a Scriptural record of the kind of behaviour God expects from me.

Interestingly, the Bible tells us in Hebrews 11:17-19 that Abraham thought that the way things would pan out would be that he would kill Isaac and then God would raise him from the dead. That's how strong his faith was in the promise from God that his son would provide him a multitude of descendants.

Which, I guess, shows that you can never second guess God - but it did give us a wonderful illustration of substitution and sacrifice which, for 2000 years, has helped Christians understand the purpose of the Cross of Jesus Christ.

crotalus667

ISAW wrote: »

If so it tells more about the questioner than asks a question..

Penn (as in penn and teller)

ISAW wrote: »

you are aware that God didn't intend to kill Isaac and actually prevented Abram from so doing? ..

Ahhh but Abraham did not know that , Abraham is usually only brought up in this question when some one say’s “god would never ask some one to do that”




I will try and put the actual question to you , here it is “If you truly believed I mean truly truly believed that the creator of the universe the all mighty god was telling you to kill your children would you do it ?? Now you cant say he would never ask that of any one because he already asked it of Abraham ,
There are two possible answers to this
A. yes in which case you are dangerous and need to be locked up and kept he F away from me and others
B. No in which case you are not a true believer or a Christian

(ps this is by no means the excat questen it was asked in a youtube vid which is now blocked outside of the us)

PDN

crotalus667 wrote: »

I will try and put the actual question to you , here it is “If you truly believed I mean truly truly believed that the creator of the universe the all mighty god was telling you to kill your children would you do it ?? Now you cant say he would never ask that of any one because he already asked it of Abraham

That's one big logical flaw you've just dropped into.

The fact that God asked something of Abraham does not mean that God could ask the same thing of us.

We have a fuller revelation of God (progressive revelation - look it up) and God has now given us a lot of instructions that Abraham never had. Therefore God would be contradicting Himself if He asked the same thing of us - therefore we know it would not be God.

,

There are two possible answers to this
A. yes in which case you are dangerous and need to be locked up and kept he F away from me and others
B. No in which case you are not a true believer or a Christian

(ps this is by no means the excat questen it was asked in a youtube vid which is now blocked outside of the us)

Are the kind of atheists that watch youtube videos really so stupid as to think that they are the only two possible answers? That is depressing.

philologos

It appears that you are missing the point of why the Abraham and Isaac story is in the Biblical text.

The main point is to distance God, from the practices of others in the neighbouring region such as Moloch who according to the Jewish scriptures did accept child sacrifice, Ba'al, Asherah or any of the other ideas of gods that were in existence at that time.

There is no reason why God would need to do this again, now that His aim of not tolerating such treatment of children is already pretty much widespread.

crotalus667

PDN wrote: »

That's one big logical flaw you've just dropped into.

The fact that God asked something of Abraham does not mean that God could ask the same thing of us.

It is not a logical flaw to believe that once shown to be capable doing some thing that said person is capable of repeating it.

PDN wrote: »

Therefore God would be contradicting Himself if He asked the same thing of us - therefore we know it would not be God..

So you are the one that proposes he is god what does it if matter if he contradicts himself ?? Who are you to question god’s wisdom ??
,

PDN wrote: »

Are the kind of atheists that watch youtube videos really so stupid as to think that they are the only two possible answers? That is depressing.

The question is phrased as to give only two answers and the answers are provided I was trying to clear things up by providing as close to the original question and answers as I could recall , referring to anyone as stupid is inflammatory and not the actions one expects of a mod

The bottom line is that this is not a scriptural question , it is a question about reality , If you where convinced that the actual god demanded you to kill you children would you do it ? Is the question not weather it can be justified with scripture , remember he is god he does not have to answer or justify himself to you .

philologos

I wish people would actually ask questions, not with the ill-informed intent of catching out believers, but actually in order to gain a positive and constructive discussion. Too much to ask?

crotalus667

Jakkass wrote: »

There is no reason why God would need to do this again, now that His aim of not tolerating such treatment of children is already pretty much widespread.

Who said that would be the reason for the demand ?? and how do you know it is not part of a bigger picture ?? You claim that god has a greater mind than humans can comprehend but then you seem to make assumptions on gods will/intentions/wisdom using human logic now that is the definition of flawed logic

PDN

crotalus667 wrote: »

It is not a logical flaw to believe that once shown to be capable doing some thing that said person is capable of repeating it.

So I can lose my virginity again?

It is a logical flaw to claim that a Christian can't say that God wouldn't ask such a thing of them. A Christian can say that, and with good reason and confidence, because God has given us a revelation that tells us never to do such things.

So you are the one that proposes he is god what does it if matter if he contradicts himself ?? Who are you to question god’s wisdom ??

Because this is the Christianity Forum where we discuss Christian beliefs. Christians don't believe in a contradictory God of the type you propose.

If you want to discuss a God that contradicts Himself (ie not the Christian God) then I suggest you take it the Spirituality Forum.

The question is phrased as to give only two answers and the answers are provided I was trying to clear things up by providing as close to the original question and answers as I could recall , referring to anyone as stupid is inflammatory and not the actions one expects of a mod

What you expect from a mod is neither here nor there.

Anyone who frames a question so as to allow only two answers when other answers obviously exist would appear to be dishonest. And anyone impressed by such sophistry is, in my opinion, rather dim.

The bottom line is that this is not a scriptural question , it is a question about reality , If you where convinced that the actual god demanded you to kill you children would you do it ? Is the question not weather it can be justified with scripture , remember he is god he does not have to answer or justify himself to you .

It's not a question about reality, since it is addressed to Christians who believe that God has revealed Himself to us in Scripture. It's a question about a hypothetical situation that would be impossible for any Christian who is not suffering from mental illness.

philologos

crotalus667 wrote: »

Who said that would be the reason for the demand ?? and how do you know it is not part of a bigger picture ?? You claim that god has a greater mind than humans can comprehend but then you seem to make assumptions on gods will/intentions/wisdom using human logic now that is the definition of flawed logic

Given the cultural climate of Caanan and neighbouring regions at that time, and of the culture that Abraham had come from (Mesopotamian), and given that Abraham was just starting to get to know God's character, it seems to me to be quite clearly the point. As I've said already, other parts of the Jewish Torah back up that it was a common practice to sacrifice children to other ideas of gods.

If you want to ignore the cultural climate, and all other factors to make an argument that merely suits your atheist position, be my guest.

There are noted trends of child sacrifice in ancient times in both Phonecia, a neighbour of Israel / Caanan, and in Arabia.

whatdoicare

I'd happily rot in hell after telling God to get stuffed, my childs safety and well being is far more important to me than the whims of some insecure deity playing mind games.

crotalus667

PDN wrote: »

So I can lose my virginity again?

Now you are being silly as you well know asking some one to kill some one else is a repeatable event unlike losing your virginity

PDN wrote: »

Christians don't believe in a contradictory God of the type you propose.

that’s your personal belief you can not label every christian in the forum with the same belief. In any case what is to say contradicting himself is not part of the original plan ??

PDN wrote: »

Anyone who frames a question so as to allow only two answers when other answers obviously exist would appear to be dishonest. And anyone impressed by such sophistry is, in my opinion, rather dim..

Any one who fails to see the benefit of sorting the dangerous from the non dangerous in my opinion, rather dim. I do recall posing this question on a different site about 2 years ago when the vid was still viewable and there where in fact two people that claimed they would answer yes.

PDN wrote: »

It's a question about a hypothetical situation that would be impossible for any Christian who is not suffering from mental illness.

To answer the question one does not have to suffer from a mental illness one only has to truly believe , are you suggesting that any one who claims to hear god , has visions is suffering a mental illness ???

crotalus667

Jakkass wrote: »

Given the cultural climate of Caanan and neighbouring regions at that time, and of the culture that Abraham had come from (Mesopotamian), and given that Abraham was just starting to get to know God's character, it seems to me to be quite clearly the point. As I've said already, other parts of the Jewish Torah back up that it was a common practice to sacrifice children to other ideas of gods.

If you want to ignore the cultural climate, and all other factors to make an argument that merely suits your atheist position, be my guest.

There are noted trends of child sacrifice in ancient times in both Phonecia, a neighbour of Israel / Caanan, and in Arabia.

You have missed the point , you have assumed that you know they why the questen would be asked

philologos

crotalus667 wrote: »

You have missed the point , you have assumed that you know they why the questen would be asked

This is by far the best contender in why God would do this. Just because I can't know 100% what God thinks, doesn't mean that I cannot find a reasonable explanation as to why He would.

God calling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and not going ahead with it, in terms of teaching the point that He wouldn't ever desire this from anyone is something that I find to be one of the strong values that exist in Judeo-Christianity. It doesn't tolerate injustice.

Indeed, God would Himself atone for our sins, through Jesus Christ.

crotalus667

Jakkass wrote: »

Just because I can't know 100% what God thinks, doesn't mean that I cannot find a reasonable explanation as to why He would.

This could go round and round , your getting away from the point, it’s not why he would ask it’s would you obey

philologos

It would be clutching at straws to suggest that there isn't a good reason behind Genesis 22 when one can easily point out given what the area was like, why God would do such a thing.

Our point is, God wouldn't do this again. So we are dealing with a hypothetical.

Morgans

I'm sorry and I do mean to respect, but I find the comment regarding what God would and wouldn't ask Christians to do as "dealing with a hypothetical" very funny.

Fanny Cradock

Morgans wrote: »

I'm sorry and I do mean to respect

But you clearly do.

PDN

I'm sick of indulging trolls.