Calibres and their uses?

bunny shooter

Should people be using "big" calibres for shooting rabbits, crows and other "small" vermin species?

What are people opinions on using say a 243/6.5x55/.308 on rabbits?

In my area lads use at most a .22lr/.22 WMR/.17 HMR to shoot rabbits. Fox shooters are using .220 Swift/.22.250/.22 Hornet/.17 REM/.223 & .204 Ruger/222 REM.

Lads who have .243 and above are only shooting deer with them. Not many target shooters in my area as the nearest ranges are all approx 1.5-2 hours away.

I use my Swift for foxes, never bunnies.

Opinions please ..........................

tomcat220t

No ,all them larger round ,.308,6.5x55,270,.....ect are going to pass through rabbits,crows and other small vermint ,thus increasing the chances of ricochets ,imo.

rrpc

Well you know my opinion on this from the other thread, but to expand a little on that, you should always use a calibre appropriate to the quarry and the conditions.

You don't use a .22 on deer and you don't use a .243 on bunnies.

It's a simple equation: the bullet needs to stop the quarry and the quarry needs to stop the bullet.

All the requirements and safety considerations on a range need to be duplicated as much as possible in the field. In some respects, greater care needs to be taken in the field as the conditions and physical characteristics are not as controlled as on a range.

tomcat220t

My idea of a suitable varmint round is flat shooting ,good in wind ,light recoil ,accurate ,and more important is a very fragmentable round that wont over penetrate or ricochet .Non of the larger rounds ,especially .243 and up .

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

Well you know my opinion on this from the other thread, but to expand a little on that, you should always use a calibre appropriate to the quarry and the conditions.

You don't use a .22 on deer and you don't use a .243 on bunnies.

It's a simple equation: the bullet needs to stop the quarry and the quarry needs to stop the bullet.

All the requirements and safety considerations on a range need to be duplicated as much as possible in the field. In some respects, greater care needs to be taken in the field as the conditions and physical characteristics are not as controlled as on a range.

If one does hill to hill shooting using Ballistic tipped rounds large than .224 rounds will have a safe backstop. The simple use of safe backstop makes the round choice and the distance required.

Shooting bunnies with a .243 @300,400 or 500 is no more dangerous than any calibre if there is a safe backstop.

Rick O'Shea's Are a major concern with FMJ or target ammo. A head shot with a .22lr using cci stingers is no different than .308. The difference is that the .308 burrows into the ground ~ 4 " behind the bunny.

If one was to shoot rabbits hill shooting a .22lr is at a distinct disadvantage as average range is 200 yards.
The only difference between a .308 and a .223 on bunnies is a bigger bang and more felt recoil.

The situation may change, the rules stay the same.
Safe backstop, ensure you are on target you know the rest.

I personally do not often use .308 on bunnies. but as a range as you have stated is CONTROLLED and hunting is not a controlled environment it is of the utmost importance that the hunter knows what happens the round at various ranges that are not on a target range. What is teh hold over 267yards 317, 149 etc.
Most hunters hone there skills on the small targets so the big Targets are easy take down at same ranges.
I appreciate this is my opinion and others may disagree, lots who shoot target never hunt, and lots who hunt never shoot competition.

I believe its a personal choice and not a given.
If you want to start stalking going off with exp on 3 given ranges will not give the user confidence when the Deer presents it self at in between ranges. So Using the deer calibre in Off season I believe, for some is a good way to gain understanding of the rifle when conditions are not controlled.

I'm not advising a .308 for varminting, but I am not saying it can not be used either; if extreme care and vigilance is taken

bunny shooter

I applied for my .22lr for target & rabbit shooting. I applied for my .220 Swift for target & fox shooting. I applied for my .303 for target shooting.

My Super granted these licences for these rifles on those grounds.

Therefore, if I take my .303 out to shoot bunnies am I breaking the conditions that my .303 licence was issued on?

So if someone gets a .243/.308/6.5x55 to shoot deer & to use it on an authorised range and they are shooting bunnies with it and the Gardai are called where would/might they stand legally with regard to their licence?

tomcat220t

Hi tack,as much as you and i agree that one cant have too accurate a rifle ,you also can never be too safe,either .Back stops is a must with every caliber but is no compensation for the use of a correct round for a given job,sorry !

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

I applied for my .22lr for target & rabbit shooting. I applied for my .220 Swift for target & fox shooting. I applied for my .303 for target shooting.

My Super granted these licences for these rifles on those grounds.

Therefore, if I take my .303 out to shoot bunnies am I breaking the conditions that my .303 licence was issued on?

So if someone gets a .243/.308/6.5x55 to shoot deer & to use it on an authorised range and they are shooting bunnies with it and the Gardai are called where would/might they stand legally with regard to their licence?

I applied "on advisement" for all categories. I hold all purposes for shotgun and rifles, then I can use either in both. There is the scope in the form to apply for hunting and target on the same form so I put it down for that reason.(it suited me as I use both for both purposes, might not suit every one)

I did not have a .22lr anymore so the question never came up.
I would advise any one renewing to put both down to cover them selves. If you did not tick Target in theory you could not use it on a range either

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

If one does hill to hill shooting using Ballistic tipped rounds large than .224 rounds will have a safe backstop. The simple use of safe backstop makes the round choice and the distance required.

Shooting bunnies with a .243 @300,400 or 500 is no more dangerous than any calibre if there is a safe backstop.

A hill is not a safe backstop. Unless it's a cliff face within a reasonable distance of the target, a ricochet will clear it easily. That's why they put raised and ground baffles on ranges.

Rick O'Shea's Are a major concern with FMJ or target ammo. A head shot with a .22lr using cci stingers is no different than .308. The difference is that the .308 burrows into the ground ~ 4 " behind the bunny.

Until it finds a rock to bounce off. The difference is that the kinetic energy of the .308 is much greater than the stinger and will carry it farther.

If one was to shoot rabbits hill shooting a .22lr is at a distinct disadvantage as average range is 200 yards.
The only difference between a .308 and a .223 on bunnies is a bigger bang and more felt recoil.

The disadvantage is to whoever happens to be in the danger area from your shot. The .22's danger area is much more limited than that of the .308

I appreciate this is my opinion and others may disagree, lots who shoot target never hunt, and lots who hunt never shoot competition.

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a question of safety. You do not use an inappropriate round for the quarry. Taking a shot at a bunny at 300 yards is just unnecessary and dangerous. There is still considerable energy in a 308 at that distance or even at 500 yards, but your ability to hit the target is hugely compromised by the distance involved and even if you did hit it, the rabbit is hardly going to reduce the energy by more than the merest fraction.

Why are you arguing this point? There are different calibres for a reason, and the reasons aren't unidirectional.

jwshooter

tomcat220t wrote: »

No ,all them larger round ,.308,6.5x55,270,.....ect are going to pass through rabbits,crows and other small vermint ,thus increasing the chances of ricochets ,imo.

the most dangerous cal/bullet combo in a .22 using subs ,ricochets are "VERY" common and dont get me started about 223s using FMJs.

i could not name the day i heard a 110gr v max ricochet .

suitability of the land to the cal is more important that the cal to uses .if i had shooting on a 70 acre flat farm i would not bring a centre fire.

saying that im friends with a guy in the uk he runs a game/vermin control business mostly shooting deer in gardens .

he uses a 25-06 tikka mostly with 70gr Btips ,i v shot deer with him ,there is no problem seeing the animals just getting the back stop right is the problem.

this brings us to the most important part of any rifleman's understanding of what there doing .

BACKSTOPS .....there are more people injured ever year with air driven pellets than all the rest of the firearms put together .why ?
the lack of understanding of back stops and what happens when a bullet misses or passes through the intended quarrie.

using super fast cals with highly fragmentable bullets would be safer that any .22 using subs or 223 using FMJ on flat ground .

you would be a fool to use any rifle on flat ground BTW.

Tackleberrywho

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi tack,as much as you and i agree that one cant have too accurate a rifle ,you also can never be too safe,either .Back stops is a must with every caliber but is no compensation for the use of a correct round for a given job,sorry !

i'm not expecting every one to agree.
I said it was a personal choice, I shoot bunnies on very similar ground to deer so the conditions are the same so it is good FOR ME to hone my skills there. Very different wind conditions on a flat range to hills, my local range for example wind always is on the right where I hunt there is up drafts and don drafts and side to side and swirls etc

Can we agree to differ? I use my .223 955 of the time but in the last week of August i take out the .308 for a week or two on the bunnies to make sure she is in good fetle and I am used yo it. As ranges are only open weekends mostly and the 1st of sept is a wednesday I will be out tuesday and monday bashing bunnies, so on wednesday i will be sharp. Just like I break clays before I go for Duck etc.
Just my routine

rrpc

jwshooter wrote: »

the most dangerous cal/bullet combo in a .22 using subs ,ricochets are "VERY" common and dont get me started about 223s using FMJs.

i could not name the day i heard a 110gr v max ricochet .

Can you hear this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc

tomcat220t

jwshooter wrote: »

the most dangerous cal/bullet combo in a .22 using subs ,ricochets are "VERY" common and dont get me started about 223s using FMJs.

i could not name the day i heard a 110gr v max ricochet .

suitability of the land to the cal is more important that the cal to uses .if i had shooting on a 70 acre flat farm i would not bring a centre fire.

saying that im friends with a guy in the uk he runs a game/vermin control business mostly shooting deer in gardens .

he uses a 25-06 tikka mostly with 70gr Btips ,i v shot deer with him ,there is no problem seeing the animals just getting the back stop right is the problem.

this brings us to the most important part of any rifleman's understanding of what there doing .

BACKSTOPS .....there are more people injured ever year with air driven pellets than all the rest of the firearms put together .why ?
the lack of understanding of back stops and what happens when a bullet misses or passes through the intended quarrie.

using super fast cals with highly fragmentable bullets would be safer that any .22 using subs or 223 using FMJ on flat ground .

you would be a fool to use any rifle on flat ground BTW.

I agree that the .22 sub or .223 fmj are good at ricocheting but the .270 110gr is hardy a great option on rabbits or crows ,either ?

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

Can you hear this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc

I have seen that video before and it is frightening :eek:

Simple how things can go very wrong very quick :eek:

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I applied "on advisement" for all categories. I hold all purposes for shotgun and rifles, then I can use either in both. There is the scope in the form to apply for hunting and target on the same form so I put it down for that reason.(it suited me as I use both for both purposes, might not suit every one)

Did you miss the bit on the form that asked you to give reasons on a seperate sheet as to why you required the specific firearm?

Because I have serious doubts that your Super would have granted you a licence for a .308 to shoot rabbits.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

.....Because I have serious doubts that your Super would have granted you a licence for a .308 to shoot rabbits.

This is the point I was trying to make above. I had to explain in detail exactly what I wanted each firearm for. "Hunting" wasn't good enough I had to explain what I was going to be hunting with each firearm and what type and where I was going to be "target" shooting.

jwshooter

rrpc wrote: »

Can you hear this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc

not very relevant unless we knew the bullet he was using ,dont think it was depleted uranium .

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

Can you hear this?

AFAIK that was shooting a .5BMG FMJ at an Iron plate.
an iron plate at an angle is asking for trouble, so too is FMJ's.

But a .5BMG is not here and not used on rabbits

I have only head a ricochet from my .22lr when i had one using subs.

I use ballistic tipped rounds and I being interested in metals i have dug them out of the ground and there is almost nothing left of them as they are a very thin copper wall designed for maximum transfer of energy.

I also have rabbit shooting on a sand cliff face, i have posted pics on the hunting thread, so you have answered that part for me.

Most dangerous part of shooting in a sand pit is landslide not Rick O'shea

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

Did you miss the bit on the form that asked you to give reasons on a seperate sheet as to why you required the specific firearm?

Because I have serious doubts that your Super would have granted you a licence for a .308 to shoot rabbits.

He granted my .308 licence many years ago. So the renewal was a formality.
I said I was a hunter first and foremost and we talked in depth about hunting of all game/vermin.
I asked for ammo limit to hunting and target and i got it.

My primary purpose has not changed as I use the .308 95% of the time on deer, but I ticked all boxes so i applied and was granted all.

I am not advising that a .308 is the best varmint round for Irish conditions, I am saying that it can be used.
Most hunting fatalities in this country have historically been shotguns.
Yet they are the easiest licence
Rabbits are no more dead with a .22 or a .30wsm and the backstop is the same.

rrpc

jwshooter wrote: »

not very relevant unless we knew the bullet he was using ,dont think it was depleted uranium .

Missed the point there jw, we only heard the ricochet because it came straight back. You won't hear the ricochet from a large calibre rifle using a heavy round unless it's coming at you.

Why?

Because (a) the sound from a heavy bullet is at a lower frequency than a lighter one and low frequency sounds don't travel as far, (b) the distance to the impact point is usually farther away and (c) the sonic crack from the shot will drown it out.

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

Missed the point there jw, we only heard the ricochet because it came straight back. You won't hear the ricochet from a large calibre rifle using a heavy round unless it's coming at you.

Why?

Because (a) the sound from a heavy bullet is at a lower frequency than a lighter one and low frequency sounds don't travel as far, (b) the distance to the impact point is usually farther away and (c) the sonic crack from the shot will drown it out.

well how cum I can hear the wha-thump when i hit a bunny/deer and if I hit the dirt then so?

A lot of science mentioned here, I have a few spend heads somewhere. I may look them up and post a pic

I like to dig them out of the dirt and examine expansion

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

well how cum I can hear the wha-thump when i hit a bunny/deer and if I hit the dirt then so?

Because it's relative to distance as well. Sound attenuates at 6dB by doubling of distance; the farther away and lower the frequency, the less you'll hear. People hear .22 subs more because the impact is closer, the frequency higher and there's no sonic crack to drown it out.

All rounds ricochet and fragment, there's reams of documentation produced and test data accumulated over decades to prove that. Centre fire rounds can backsplash as much as 50m, are you seriously suggesting that if they can do that, they also can't ricochet?

Sikamick

Quote [rrpc] A hill is not a safe backstop. Unless it's a cliff face within a reasonable distance of the target, a ricochet will clear it easily. That's why they put raised and ground baffles on ranges.


I would have to disagree with you on this one, show me the ground baffles and cliff faces on the Bisley full bore ranges and where ground baffles are used on other ranges they are no more than a couple of feet high and are not set out like hurdles on a race course.

Also the longer the distance the more chance of ricochet, so if what you say is correct why should there not be similar baffles systems set up on say 600 yard ranges.

There is an article and study done in Canada on the web about the dangers of ground baffles.

We have ranges around the country that have been checked by the range inspector and have not been required to put ridicules baffle systems that we see be put in else where.

As for the use of the Video of the guy shooting the 50 Cal, informal target shooting, 50 cal being shot by a clown at a piece steel, every thing is relative, shoot at a hard surface, expect a ricochet.



Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Quote [rrpc] A hill is not a safe backstop. Unless it's a cliff face within a reasonable distance of the target, a ricochet will clear it easily. That's why they put raised and ground baffles on ranges.


I would have to disagree with you on this one, show me the ground baffles and cliff faces on the Bisley full bore ranges and where ground baffles are used on other ranges they are no more than a couple of feet high and are not set out like hurdles on a race course.

Also the longer the distance the more chance of ricochet, so if what you say is correct why should there not be similar baffles systems set up on say 600 yard ranges.

Because they are danger area ranges and don't require baffling.

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

He granted my .308 licence many years ago. So the renewal was a formality.
I said I was a hunter first and foremost and we talked in depth about hunting of all game/vermin.
I asked for ammo limit to hunting and target and i got it.

My primary purpose has not changed as I use the .308 95% of the time on deer, but I ticked all boxes so i applied and was granted all.

So you didn't tell him you would be using it for rabbits.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

Because they are danger area ranges and don't require baffling.

Then why would the same range have to baffle 100,200 and 300 yards range with them same back drop behind the backstop. There is exactly the same distance behind all the backstops on this particular range.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Then why would the same range have to baffle 100,200 and 300 yards range with them same back drop behind the backstop. There is exactly the same distance behind all the backstops on this particular range.

Sikamick

Are they not different ranges?; side by side?

And isn't the no danger area range set up that way to allow use of the danger area range beside it in safety?

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

So you didn't tell him you would be using it for rabbits.

I did, in my Interview

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

Because they are danger area ranges and don't require baffling.

You must never have been in Carna when folk were firing .303 FMJ and hitting the the butts with FMJ, Helmets had to be worn by all in the Butts

I can hear from the shot hit or not with .308.
i have heard someone else's fmj centrefire ricochet and it was very loud.
They did not know they had let a FMJ mix in with hollow points. i only use one ammo for all to eliminate the chances of this happening.

Hornady BT's the way forward

It wasn't me!

Rabbits shot with .22 sub hollowpoints will be passed clean through; rabbits shot with small centrefires will be passed clean through. Deer shot with deer rifles will be passed clean through. I don't really care what anyone wants to use to shoot their game as long as they're doing it safely. The bullet is more than likley not going to be stopped by the game (indeed, there's a voice in my head saying that if it is, you probably should have used more gun in certain cases) so the backstop is all important. If you're on flat land, get elevated by climbing ditches until the angle is steep enough to be safe or build a high seat. As long as the shot is safe, the rifle used is relatively unimportant.

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I did, in my Interview

So you're confirming that you got a license for a .308 for shooting rabbits? Well done! A certain Mr. O'Leary had to go to the High Court to get one for shooting Red Deer. :rolleyes: