Cheating in the Leaving Cert

tracker-man

Mick Daly wrote: »

I wouldn't think too much about it. Move on. It's not your problem.

He still doesn't get it Yes Mick Daly, yes it is our problem. I won't waste my time or effort in giving a detailed explanation, its all been said before. How can you still not understand it is, very much, our problem when you cheat.

shellita

I saw one of the more intelligent girls in my class cheating in the L.C and I thought it was so unfair as she would have got more points than most of us without cheating.

Knowing she did cheat I lost all respect for her, told my friends and we all just pitied her.

Cheating will not make your life different, if you cant get the grades without cheating then you wont be able for the college course!!!!!

ajjmk

it's kinda off the topic, but it has been mentioned quite a few times in this thread..i have to ask, what exactly is "trolling"..!?

Sigi

ajjmk wrote: »

it's kinda off the topic, but it has been mentioned quite a few times in this thread..i have to ask, what exactly is "trolling"..!?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

randylonghorn

ajjmk wrote: »

it's kinda off the topic, but it has been mentioned quite a few times in this thread..i have to ask, what exactly is "trolling"..!?

"A troll is one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument ..."

shellita

I only got a D in Ordinary Leaving Cert Maths.

Yet I went on to do Software Engineering where I had 5 Mathematical subjects including Engineering Maths in first year but as it was something I was interested in and I wanted it I passed every exam over 5 years for my degree !!!

god_in_a_coma

I'm a repeat student and on the off chance I don't get my course again I'm gonna be majorly p***ed at anyone who did and cheated.

drg85

shellita wrote: »

I only got a D in Ordinary Leaving Cert Maths.

Yet I went on to do Software Engineering where I had 5 Mathematical subjects including Engineering Maths in first year but as it was something I was interested in and I wanted it I passed every exam over 5 years for my degree !!!

Glad for you, you obviously had it in you somewhere!

However, I've seen dozens of students with massive passion failed cause they simply can't hack it.. AND some of these students came in with As and Bs in HL math..

the_barfly1

DeVore wrote: »

I have my morals and I'm successful in business. Its possible, it just depends if you consider your self respect worth the work. I do.


DeV.

Apologies, I should have specified big business, a la Large Corporations and the likes, the mega money makers!

Sigi

god_in_a_coma wrote: »

I'm a repeat student and on the off chance I don't get my course again I'm gonna be majorly p***ed at anyone who did and cheated.

Why?You've had two chances and if you fail second time round you really cant blame anyone else.

KnifeWRENCH

Sigi wrote: »

Why?You've had two chances and if you fail second time round you really cant blame anyone else.

You don't have to fail to not get your course. Some people are just unlucky.

Sigi

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

You don't have to fail to not get your course. Some people are just unlucky.

Sorry yeah I meant not get the course.

Ms.Forbes

Samskeyti wrote: »

There's cheating happening in my school, the majority of students use the fact that the toilets are in our P.E hall and that the superintendents have no reason to follow them in. The students hide notes written from before the exam in their socks and pants and some even got away with having a phone on their lap for an entire paper and reading saved messages from it. Others used the bathroom to call students from other schools and got full answers on questions.

Our principal is a complete waster as students were caught cheating in the L.C.V.P exam and nothing was done about it. I thought if you were caught cheating that you couldn't sit another state exam? Should I inform the superintendents of how stupid they're being or e-mail the State Examinations Commission? I know for definate that Irish will be the exam that most will cheat on because of learning notes off by heart will prove too much effort for them. Help??

Yes examiners and teachers alike seem to take no notice of these things for instance one student in our school last year failed French and still got accepted in to UCC despite the fact it is an absolute requirement to have at least Ordinary level D3 in a language.. Clearly unfair! Does anyone think for a second that Drumcondra or Mary Immaculate College would accept you despite the fact you didn't get a C3 in Irish ... not a chance!

DeVore

the_barfly1 wrote: »

Apologies, I should have specified big business, a la Large Corporations and the likes, the mega money makers!

Boards is the biggest private media company in the state... I'm 40 and I could retire tomorrow. You dont have to be a dick to succeed in life and its much nicer en route too

DeV.

MichelleSm1th

MichelleSm1th wrote: »

Are you doing the leaving cert this year? If not, which I highly believe you are not, then you clearly are out of touch with the youth of today! Whilst you will be busy with your life in later years commenting on things that have nothing to do with you, I will be progressing successfully in life doing things worthwhile like saving lives and helping the poor.

Shouldn't you be studying or something instead of being on the internet in the middle of your leaving cert?

Blushingblue

Go off to make dinner and this thread grows from page 30 to 58! Catching up....

fufureida wrote: »

Wow. People lie about everything these days.

Hey guys I bought my boobs in tesco last week.

Could be true if you were the lotto winner who bought the ticket in Tesco Wilton last week

blankguitarist wrote: »

I was thinking actually. Technically, are you not cheating by learning off an essay? It's something most people do, and a lot of the time people will hand up identical essays, especially for History and English. It doesn't sound like much, but i know for a fact that in LCVP, Engineering, and DCG, which we did portfolios for, we were warned time and time again not to plagerise or copy eachother's work. They said if any of us had simliar or identical material we'd be investigated, and our grades would be witheld.
BUT, in written exams, people (especially in grind schools, but also in my school, which is a comprehensive) are handing up essays their teachers handed out to them to learn off.
Just a thought.

Good point. For my Leaving, our Irish teacher gave our class these summaries for the poems and stories to learn off instead of us coming up with something. The summaries came from a revision book and old answers from previous leaving certs. I remember learning them word for word and writing it down on the exam without thinking about the question at all.

When I went to college, in first year one of tutors in tutorial gave us summaries to learn off for Christmas one year (she did tell us to use them as guides and to add our own stuff, but we were so used to just learning stuff off the majority just learned them off), and the Lecturer was disappointed in none of us expressing our thoughts about the subject but the thoughts of the tutor.

shellita wrote: »

I saw one of the more intelligent girls in my class cheating in the L.C and I thought it was so unfair as she would have got more points than most of us without cheating.

Knowing she did cheat I lost all respect for her, told my friends and we all just pitied her.

Cheating will not make your life different, if you cant get the grades without cheating then you wont be able for the college course!!!!!

Same during my Leaving, actually she made it quite obvious to class about it afterwards. She got her high points course, barely. A few years later I heard she was caught doing it in some final exams. Bumped in to her a few weeks ago and she believes that pressure from her parents made her cheat!

Ms.Forbes wrote: »

for instance one student in our school last year failed French and still got accepted in to UCC despite the fact it is an absolute requirement to have at least Ordinary level D3 in a language..

Do you know how that happened? One of my friends was going for the same course as me and we needed a B3 in Maths to get it, I got in but she got a C1 and didn't.

Blerdiii

Healium wrote: »

I think you have the wrong school XD
I didn't know you knew anybody in my school
Unless you mean the ladies

ha i had the wrong school first but i actually do know a few lot!
but tbh where we live noone gives enough of a **** to cheat XD

KnifeWRENCH

blankguitarist wrote: »

I was thinking actually. Technically, are you not cheating by learning off an essay? It's something most people do, and a lot of the time people will hand up identical essays, especially for History and English. It doesn't sound like much, but i know for a fact that in LCVP, Engineering, and DCG, which we did portfolios for, we were warned time and time again not to plagerise or copy eachother's work. They said if any of us had simliar or identical material we'd be investigated, and our grades would be witheld.
BUT, in written exams, people (especially in grind schools, but also in my school, which is a comprehensive) are handing up essays their teachers handed out to them to learn off.
Just a thought.

It's an interesting thought, but I guess it could be argued that learning off essays like that requires a lot of work. Like I had to rote learn tons of potential essays for Irish; it was pretty much the way we were taught to do it. Three years later I've forgotten pretty much all my Irish but at the time I spent ages learning those essays off. At least if you spend ages learning off essays, you've done some bit of work. It's not like just writing it down once, not learning it and then somehow cheating off of it on the day of the exam.

The LC is mostly just a glorified memory test anyway; learning off essays and stuff is just a way to "beat the system".

hsharz

if you learn off answers or complete essays that isn't very clever.

I didn't do L.C., as I did my school leaving exams in another country , however if they would have found 2 people answering about the same thing, it would have been investigated as cheating. No matter how far away you might have been seated.

and also yes getting points to get your preferred course is/seems extremly important but at the end there are other people who want the same thing with honest work. cheating always will be unfair.

I personally wouldn't report anybody (not saying you shouldn't), because I feel it's socially unaccepted + cheating is extremly stupid if you consider the consequences, e.g. cheat in a college exam it will be written on your "degree"--- good luck explaining that to your potential employer.

Scan Man

hsharz wrote: »

if you learn off answers or complete essays that isn't very clever.

I didn't do L.C., as I did my school leaving exams in another country , however if they would have found 2 people answering about the same thing, it would have been investigated as cheating. No matter how far away you might have been seated.

The Leaving Cert is basically one big memory test, there's only a limited number of options in terms of essay choices in most subjects so there's always going to be an overlap, in fact the examiners relish the overlap rather than having to correct something which deviates from the curve in an unconventional manner.

For instance, the guy across the row from me wrote a very similar story using the exact same information which we'd learned, but we were seated in front of the Superintendent throughout the exam and neither left the room at any stage. We only discovered the similar when sharing stories on what questions we'd answered outside the exam!

If you're looking for original thinking, you're in the wrong country I think. I've always been encouraged to learn by rote, the French and Irish Oral examinations being a good case in point where an examiner probably heard 22 people say a very similar story about what they did at the weekend.

randylonghorn

Scan Man wrote: »

... in fact the examiners relish the overlap rather than having to correct something which deviates from the curve in an unconventional manner.

Where did you get that idea?

Certainly, having corrected HL Eng P II a couple of times, I can assure you that what I relished was some modicum of originality, rather than the strong sense that what I was reading had passed from the notes of the teacher to the notes of the student, and subsequently to the exam paper, without passing through the brains of either party!

cruibin

OP is right to be hacked off about cheating - and right to point it out. We don't condone cheating in sport and we lambast politicians if they cheat on expenses, yet we do turn a blind eye if someone cheats in a state exam, and I would think many boards members know or know of someone whos done that.

So fair play to the OP, I hope they do well in their exams and get to where ever the want to get to in life off the back of their own hard work.

hsharz

I've heard these kind of things (especially learning off conversations for oral exams) but never really wanted to believe them.

if that's what examiners want to hear I feel very sorry for all students having to do this as it makes no sense. An exam should only test what you have learned over the period of a course not how much you can memorise (okay a good amount of studying will always be involved---but not only). ---> to be provocative: Why even bother then to teach sth--just give everybody a sheet of paper to learn off?

but that's beside the point- I'm sorry.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

hsharz wrote: »

I've heard these kind of things (especially learning off conversations for oral exams) but never really wanted to believe them.

if that's what examiners want to hear I feel very sorry for all students having to do this as it makes no sense. An exam should only test what you have learned over the period of a course not how much you can memorise (okay a good amount of studying will always be involved---but not only). ---> to be provocative: Why even bother then to teach sth--just give everybody a sheet of paper to learn off?

but that's beside the point- I'm sorry.

Don't be sorry, you're dead right. however, it's seen as the simplest way to get high points and so its common practice.

Scan Man

randylonghorn wrote: »

Where did you get that idea?

Certainly, having corrected HL Eng P II a couple of times, I can assure you that what I relished was some modicum of originality, rather than the strong sense that what I was reading had passed from the notes of the teacher to the notes of the student, and subsequently to the exam paper, without passing through the brains of either party!

English Paper 1 is generally an exception, but from my experience at both Junior and Senior Cycle, most teachers have recommended the learn by rote approach.

I'm not a fan of it, but it seems to be the reality, when whole areas of certain courses, and therefore, parts of the paper are conveniently snipped out as it's regarded as too awkward and your recommended to go for the other part. As mentioned, the classic examples are the Oral Examinations and any of the pre-submitted reports in Geography, History, etc.

So in conclusion, I'm going to go the predictable route and blame the teachers and the system.

Scan Man

hsharz wrote: »

I've heard these kind of things (especially learning off conversations for oral exams) but never really wanted to believe them.

if that's what examiners want to hear I feel very sorry for all students having to do this as it makes no sense. An exam should only test what you have learned over the period of a course not how much you can memorise (okay a good amount of studying will always be involved---but not only). ---> to be provocative: Why even bother then to teach sth--just give everybody a sheet of paper to learn off?

but that's beside the point- I'm sorry.

* Sorry for double post.

No need to apologise, it's sadly been my experience of the system which is geared around getting the highest number of people successfully through the exam at the end of it.

As witnessed above, I can't speak for all examiners, as I've never met one. However, I'm basing my position on what the teachers advise the majority of students to do.

I certainly enjoyed elements of the Leaving Cert course, especially in English (Shakespearian drama mainly) and in Biology, but most of the course is a frantic rush to fill heads with facts and a few skills.

randylonghorn

Scan Man wrote: »

English Paper 1...

I was talking about English II, but no matter ...

Scan Man wrote: »

... most teachers have recommended the learn by rote approach.

And here we see the grind school culture seeping into mainstream "education".

Scan Man wrote: »

So in conclusion, I'm going to go the predictable route and blame the teachers and the system.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't blame students at all.

It IS the system in particular which is at fault.

There are some signs recently of the SEC copping on and being slightly less predictable (Boland anyone?) and hopefully they will follow that trend.

I suppose the LC will always be based heavily on memory, but it would be nice to see the culture of rote-learning readymade answers to hotly tipped questions being undermined at least, and students being encouraged to actually think and apply what they know to the questions.

It might surprise you, but even at the present time, students who actually do that often do better!

Scan Man wrote: »

I certainly enjoyed elements of the Leaving Cert course, especially in English (Shakespearian drama mainly) ...

Bless you for giving me some hope for our young people!

[/VictorMeldrew]

Cormac2791

aine92 wrote: »

I had the option to cheat? Nobody has the option to cheat! Its not like a form where ya tick (A) or (B) and thats that?

Like I have said to all the others, cheating shouldnt be condoned and I dont know how you could stand around all your teachers, them patting you on the back saying congratulations you clearly worked very hard, and smile and say yeah I did, thanks?! HOW?

I dont have a superior conscience, I have a perfectly normal, anti cheating conscience.

Go Aine!! :P =]

Lukker-

It's pretty much just a lottery for me. I only know snippets of each course, but what I do know has completely covered me with questions to spare. Can all come down to luck I s'pose.

Bree123

Consider this: A good student has put in so much hard work for the last two years. This student applied him/her self to each class more than most of the other students. The pupil also missed only a few school day's.

By unlucky chance he/she gets several, how to put it, crap teacher's (one of them happens to be among those 40% of maths teachers that is not qualified to teach the subject)
But that's ok the student can always go home study really hard and learn how to do the work him/her self.

The exams arrive.......the student hopes he/she will do very well considering the amount of work she has put in. If the pupil does not do well he/she will not get into the course that will land him/her the career they have wanted for their entire life.

The exams are not going to well for said student he/she does not understand why. It is a little unfair after all that work. The student knows he/she has not got that great a memory but those evenings spent cramming the brain with all that pointless rubbish should pay of surely.

The student is getting increasingly frustrated as he/she notices other pupils doing very well that did not put much work in, instead they went drinking every weekend.

The student was told by many of the teachers that he/she would do very well and all the work put in was great "you are a great student, getting over 400 points shouldn't be a problem"

Other pupils cheat but this one does not as its not fair on students like him/her self who have worked very hard.

Exams are over and results are out. The student did not do very well at all.
Maybe the student should have cheated then they would have gotten the results they wanted.

The student was not stupid, there was only a certain amount of pointless crap that he/she could regurgitate back onto the page in the 2 and a half hours that represent 2 years of hard work.

The joke that is leaving cert.