Cheating in the Leaving Cert

randylonghorn

Bree123 wrote: »

...crap teacher's (one of them happens to be among those 40% of maths teachers that is not qualified to teach the subject).

I don't want to go off-topic here, but this "40% of maths teachers are not qualified" bit which has been thrown around a lot lately gets to me a bit.

What they mean by that is that maths is not a major subject in their degree, that's all. It doesn't mean that they haven't studied maths in college; it doesn't mean, in practice, that they don't know the course inside out or can't teach it.

I loved maths, did it for LC Hons, did it in first year in college.

The best maths teacher I ever had was (technically) not qualified according to their definition; the worst one I had was!!

Ok, I'm not arguing that people shouldn't have the best teachers possible, or that they shouldn't be fully qualified ... but having maths in final year in degree doesn't necessarily mean you will be good at teaching it, or vice versa.

Anyway ...

[/OffTopic]

/slaps self

EuropeanSon

randylonghorn wrote: »

I was talking about English II, but no matter ...

And here we see the grind school culture seeping into mainstream "education".
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't blame students at all.

It IS the system in particular which is at fault.

There are some signs recently of the SEC copping on and being slightly less predictable (Boland anyone?) and hopefully they will follow that trend.

I suppose the LC will always be based heavily on memory, but it would be nice to see the culture of rote-learning readymade answers to hotly tipped questions being undermined at least, and students being encouraged to actually think and apply what they know to the questions.

It might surprise you, but even at the present time, students who actually do that often do better!


Bless you for giving me some hope for our young people!

[/VictorMeldrew]

I must say that I never, ever would consider learning anything by rote. It sounds soul destroying. Especially not whole essays. And if you are looking for hope for our young people, as you say, I did love the poetry of Walcott, Kavanagh and Yeats, though I found Rich, Boland and Longley soul destroying too. Lear had some lovely memorable quotes too, though I felt the story was a bit predictable and formulaic.

Damien1989

This has been featured on 3e News

http://bit.ly/drVWQz

Blerdiii

hope anyone who cheats gets whats coming to them. i need my a1s and im not even going to college here.

Bree123

randylonghorn wrote: »

I don't want to go off-topic here, but this "40% of maths teachers are not qualified" bit which has been thrown around a lot lately gets to me a bit.

What they mean by that is that maths is not a major subject in their degree, that's all. It doesn't mean that they haven't studied maths in college; it doesn't mean, in practice, that they don't know the course inside out or can't teach it.

I loved maths, did it for LC Hons, did it in first year in college.

The best maths teacher I ever had was (technically) not qualified according to their definition; the worst one I had was!!

Ok, I'm not arguing that people shouldn't have the best teachers possible, or that they shouldn't be fully qualified ... but having maths in final year in degree doesn't necessarily mean you will be good at teaching it, or vice versa.

Anyway ...

[/OffTopic]

/slaps self

Yup that's a funny point actually. I found out recently the teacher I went to to get extra classes in maths was actually among that 40%, were as the teacher I had for normal classes was fully qualified and was not really.....hmmm....helping my understand things. She was a very nice person indeed but I just couldn't get my head around what she was teaching.

I was just trying to make the point that for some reason hard work doesn't always pay of for students and this is when cheating become appealing.

Emmpty

I definitely agree with Bree123 with the amount of pressure put on kids to get points, its nearly made out to be the end of the world if you don't do well.
I know people who have been getting sick before exams from stress.
So its not hard to imagine how desperation would drive you to cheating.
Still I'd hate to get results back and know that I didn't actually earn them.

It really is a terrible system.

Blushingblue

Damien1989 wrote: »

This has been featured on 3e News

http://bit.ly/drVWQz

Going to that school was kind of pointless. I mean, no offence to anyone, but those boys aren't going to go ahead on TV (or is this on TV, I don't know, I don't watch 3e) and say "Yeah sure I've seen classmates doing it for every exam" because everyone will know who brought it to attention. And plus if one of the students had a range of ideas on how it happens, people might be suspicious of him or others he knows.

jfrmbray

Who wants to write the letter to the times then?:P

Look at the UK,every niche is catered for in the education system.If you're not academic or simply not interested you can go to college(which isn't university) and learn an applied trade,for example marketing.

They also have the exams beautifully divided up,with you having the option of taking paper one at christmas time and paper two in the summer.Relieves the pressure and encourages a more consistent work-load throughout the year...


Don't even get me started on how good coursework is.

On another note,I'm completely ****ting it about my english result,despite it being my favorite and arguably strongest subject.I thought I wrote an "A" standard essay for my lear Q,although I only used about 6 quotes.Listening to people's stories of using in excess of 15 has completely terrified me.I
think that such things should be provided in the examination hall.Provide the quotes but let the students provide the thoughts....

Sorry for such an un-eloquent and off topic response,I have a french exam in the morning and I'm very tired.

tommytomtom

Ah Mick D, no need to pretend you didn't cheat now.....Mods have already stated twice they won't give out the IP address and even if they did all they could do would be investigate and low and behold, find absolutely no evidence!

Me and a couple of friends were discussing the best way to cheat before the exams and came up with ways to best prevent the chances of being caught and I think we did a good job.....If i was caught I would accept it because it would clearly be my own fault but it's not going to happen. I don't think anyone who has ever cheated in an exam has ever felt guilty about it because it's just not that big a deal

tinkerbell

You should really report it, the Leaving Cert grading system like all other exams is based on a curve - X pass, Y fail and Z are on the border and then they look at those on the border and decide who from them pass or fail. Those who cheat are getting more into the pass zone and then those who have done ok but haven't cheated are pushed into the border zone and could end up failing / getting lower grades because of the cheaters.

It's not like a class test where you get X% but exams like the LC etc you are also compared against classmates so any cheaters could end up affecting your grades, your college place, etc.

Finical

I'm a repeat and I've worked really hard all year, well doing my best and I will be struggling to get 300 points. I want about 320 and would be delighted with that. I hope cheaters get found out, this country pisses me off enough as it is. So many things wrong with it and the education system is one of them.

Professional Griefer

jfrmbray wrote: »

Who wants to write the letter to the times then?:P

Look at the UK,every niche is catered for in the education system.If you're not academic or simply not interested you can go to college(which isn't university) and learn an applied trade,for example marketing.

They also have the exams beautifully divided up,with you having the option of taking paper one at christmas time and paper two in the summer.Relieves the pressure and encourages a more consistent work-load throughout the year...


Don't even get me started on how good coursework is.

On another note,I'm completely ****ting it about my english result,despite it being my favorite and arguably strongest subject.I thought I wrote an "A" standard essay for my lear Q,although I only used about 6 quotes.Listening to people's stories of using in excess of 15 has completely terrified me.I
think that such things should be provided in the examination hall.Provide the quotes but let the students provide the thoughts....

Sorry for such an un-eloquent and off topic response,I have a french exam in the morning and I'm very tired.

Don't worry about that, you don't need quotes. It says reference, you won't be docked marks for not using any!

unknown13

TBH. I think the LC is ok. The LC rewards people who have put in work for their exams. It is fair with the way the points work. The drawbacks of the LC is that people shouldn't be forced to do subjects they do want to do. I was hopeless at maths and did FL, those hours spent doing FL maths could have been spent doing some other subject.

Cian92

....

fufureida

unknown13 wrote: »

TBH. I think the LC is ok. The LC rewards people who have put in work for their exams. It is fair with the way the points work. The drawbacks of the LC is that people shouldn't be forced to do subjects they do want to do. I was hopeless at maths and did FL, those hours spent doing FL maths could have been spent doing some other subject.

I agree and disagree. As much as I hate maths I still think it's an important logical skill to have. I also think the lc is far from ok.

My fiancé went to school in England and for his A levels he only had to do four subjects: Maths, applied Maths, Chemistry and Physics. Not my cup of yes but he did what he wanted to and is now in his last year of uni.

I hate this country. People think it's so first world blah blah blah when it's actually IMO borderline 3rd world. It's the arse of Europe with nothing going for it. sorry but that's how I feel living here since I was 7 now I'm 20. The leaving cert is catered for people who can learn off needless information and brag about it in exam booklets on exam day. The info we learn is most of tge time pointless. Like English: I love the subject but who really cares if you know 30+ quotes off by heart in king Lear? No one. Who cares if you know tge poetry of boland or not? It's so pointless and un-practically. Why not call the class English literature?

It's just my opinion, no one has to agree. Tge lc is a pile of arse.

randylonghorn

Cian92 wrote: »

This thread has hit the front page of The Irish Times. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0615/1224272522104.html

I hate to break it to you, Cian, but ...

Lukker-

unknown13 wrote: »

TBH. I think the LC is ok. The LC rewards people who have put in work for their exams. It is fair with the way the points work. The drawbacks of the LC is that people shouldn't be forced to do subjects they do want to do. I was hopeless at maths and did FL, those hours spent doing FL maths could have been spent doing some other subject.

Disagree, I've crammed mornings before exams and just gotten extremely lucky. Put so little work into English, Irish and Geography yet all those papers I got lucky in because what I studied the day before came up. Now compared to Business which is what I put the most effort into, I just was stumped by some of the questions which in previous years would have had no problem answering. Too much left to luck.

You can't condense 6 years of learning into a 3 hour exam. But that pretty much sums up Ireland.

fufureida

I was quoted on Irish times!!!

randylonghorn

Lukker- wrote: »

You can't condense 6 years of learning into a 3 hour exam.

True, but that problem is the same everywhere.

Ok, other countries probably have more continuous assessment, and tbh I would be in favour of seeing more of that coming in here, but that system has its own problems.

Especially in the context of this thread, one of the main issues with continuous assessment can be ensuring that it is entirely the candidate's own work.

Mr Cawley

fufureida wrote: »

I agree and disagree. As much as I hate maths I still think it's an important logical skill to have. I also think the lc is far from ok.

My fiancé went to school in England and for his A levels he only had to do four subjects: Maths, applied Maths, Chemistry and Physics. Not my cup of yes but he did what he wanted to and is now in his last year of uni.

I hate this country. People think it's so first world blah blah blah when it's actually IMO borderline 3rd world. It's the arse of Europe with nothing going for it. sorry but that's how I feel living here since I was 7 now I'm 20. The leaving cert is catered for people who can learn off needless information and brag about it in exam booklets on exam day. The info we learn is most of tge time pointless. Like English: I love the subject but who really cares if you know 30+ quotes off by heart in king Lear? No one. Who cares if you know tge poetry of boland or not? It's so pointless and un-practically. Why not call the class English literature?

It's just my opinion, no one has to agree. Tge lc is a pile of arse.

Personally I think the English exam is the greatest measure of natural ability.

fufureida

Mr Cawley wrote: »

Personally I think the English exam is the greatest measure of natural ability.

English paper 1 should never change.

Paper 2 is a piece of poop.

randylonghorn

becca23 wrote: »

The principal and superviser have been tipped off yet they are still being allowed to sit their exams everyday.

I suspect that in general candidates will be allowed to sit their exams pending an investigation by the SEC into any allegations.

Otherwise, all it would take is for a malicious student to point the finger at someone else, they would be withdrawn from the exam, and there might be no foundation to the allegations whatsoever ... but that student would have suffered intense personal trauma, and could not sit the Leaving Cert until the following year.

Mr Cawley

fufureida wrote: »

English paper 1 should never change.

Paper 2 is a piece of poop.

why?

JamesJB

fufureida wrote: »

English paper 1 should never change.

Paper 2 is a piece of poop.

Agreed about paper 1, although I dislike the textbook we had for it. 'Words'. It didn't cover half of the possible B questions and was basically just a collection of literary references.

Paper 2...hmm. I think the unseen poem is just slotted in there somewhat needlessly. Not that it's too hard or anything, just an annoyance even though I love (and even write) poetry.

King Lear was ok. Comparative was standard. Loved the Yeats essay, my only gripe is that you can't refer to poems not on the course, at least not too much. Most of my favourite Yeats quotes/poems aren't the ones we study...

pointofnoreturn

unknown13 wrote: »

TBH. I think the LC is ok. The LC rewards people who have put in work for their exams. It is fair with the way the points work. The drawbacks of the LC is that people shouldn't be forced to do subjects they do want to do. I was hopeless at maths and did FL, those hours spent doing FL maths could have been spent doing some other subject.

I would disagree, regarding the Maths the failure for the Irish education system to accept that it has to modernize and "get real" about it's current teaching methods and behaviors.

fufureida wrote: »

I agree and disagree. As much as I hate maths I still think it's an important logical skill to have. I also think the lc is far from ok.

My fiancé went to school in England and for his A levels he only had to do four subjects: Maths, applied Maths, Chemistry and Physics. Not my cup of yes but he did what he wanted to and is now in his last year of uni.

I hate this country. People think it's so first world blah blah blah when it's actually IMO borderline 3rd world. It's the arse of Europe with nothing going for it. sorry but that's how I feel living here since I was 7 now I'm 20. The leaving cert is catered for people who can learn off needless information and brag about it in exam booklets on exam day. The info we learn is most of tge time pointless. Like English: I love the subject but who really cares if you know 30+ quotes off by heart in king Lear? No one. Who cares if you know tge poetry of boland or not? It's so pointless and un-practically. Why not call the class English literature?

It's just my opinion, no one has to agree. Tge lc is a pile of arse.

On my personal experience with the LC, I struggled too, I made damn sure I got the support I could get "reader, scribe, extra time..." yet barely made about 260 points, I see the LC and Points as s Process of elimination, it doesn't look at the candidate opportunity, it makes a judgment based upon about 6 subjects that are poorly thought, out dated and examined based on everyone else performance! /across 3hrs! Thats why people cheat and thats why we find it unfair!

I remember studying Higher Maths (sat OR), Applied Maths, Higher Physics, and most technical subjects, only English with no European languages ,6 years later I managed to move to Switzerland and pick up a pretty decent job, speck some Germany, bit of French and they said it would be hard! Now I respect the few good teachers I had in the past, but even there ability to improve was pushed down due to the constraints and artificial limitations in the Irish LC system!

As I have a small hobby to follow the way education is thought around the world and it never ceases to amaze me how much better it is in other counties!

I once spoke with a very passionate girl from Australia. She just finished her studies and loved to work in Ireland and the Irish education system to support special learning, she had great ideas but she was warned that her motivation and passion for teaching would die quickly in Ireland. Why? teachers here don't want to learn new methods! she now works in the UK

Now this thread is all over the news, so the word is out, BUT! the same people that have to advise on that change are more then likely the same the prevent that change!

..so we are stuck yet again..

Mr Cawley

JamesJB wrote: »

Agreed about paper 1, although I dislike the textbook we had for it. 'Words'. It didn't cover half of the possible B questions and was basically just a collection of literary references.

Paper 2...hmm. I think the unseen poem is just slotted in there somewhat needlessly. Not that it's too hard or anything, just an annoyance even though I love (and even write) poetry.

King Lear was ok. Comparative was standard. Loved the Yeats essay, my only gripe is that you can't refer to poems not on the course, at least not too much. Most of my favourite Yeats quotes/poems aren't the ones we study...

Sir I assure you that is not the case!

Clemon

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0615/exams.html

I see this thread has made rte. Congratulations to all involved.

fufureida

Clemon wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0615/exams.html

I see this thread has made rte. Congratulations to all involved.

Go back to sleep lol.

Deiseblaa

Im in a 'private school',there are loads of people cheating!
One girl has been caught by other students with her fone in her bra which she takes out during the exam and uses it to cheat!
Suposably the principal has been told but has told them that she cannot do anything about it because the superintendant has to physically catch the person in Question in the act!
It's not fair, Many of us have worked hard all year and our results reflect that! Why should they be allowed away with breezing through the exams and getting "600 points" when they dont rightly deserve it!

Superintendants should do there job and watch each student,SEC should employ more superintendants so theres more than one per room!
I know in my actual classroom nobody has because its impossible the women spends her day walking up and down the room!

I could be one of those people who have to repeat next year because I didnt get my points,It sickens me to know that 'they' got into college because they had the nerve to cheat!


DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT >>> ACTUALLY wait its TOO LATE now!
They've practically finished there exams and aced them at that!

randylonghorn

fufureida wrote: »

Go back to sleep lol.

Go back to being nice! :P

Clemon, what she means is that you're about the fourth one to break that bit of news!