Cheating in the Leaving Cert

fufureida

I am nice! meanie.

Killer Pigeon

The country needs whistle-blowers like the OP. The fact that people are cheating in general in state exams shows how lenient the State Examination Commission's security policies in exam halls are. It is through standing up and telling the truth to the people in authority and exposing these individual cases which will put in motion the review and improvement of the Examination Commission's anti-cheating policies. Doing so will help stop cheating in the long run and help stop lazy students from literally robbing college places from other student who deserve those places in the future. Already this thread has made it to the Irish Times which shows that the OP's voice is being heard, will inevitably make an impact and his/ her actions were not in vain. To those who call the OP a 'snitch', you are not looking at the wider picture.

absolutejoker

.you were right to draw attention to the cheating ***** as they were possibly screwing people who did study out of their first choice

Killer Pigeon

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

I would disagree, regarding the Maths the failure for the Irish education system to accept that it has to modernize and "get real" about it's current teaching methods and behaviors.

Yes, and also make sure that Leaving cert Maths isn't dumbed down in the process of modernising and improving teaching standards as is evident in the newly proposed "Project Maths" syllabus.

*adele*

Wah wah people are cheating, do you actually think that'll affect you in any way? If you're as much of a nerd as you seem to be I'm sure you'll do just grand. Get your head out of other peoples business and put it back in the books.
I really do hope you feel ok about ruining a few lives because I'm sure as sh1t that nobody's going back to do their leaving cert at 23, thats not to mention the disappointment their parents will feel. I know you, being sad, think that everyone who cheats is a scumbag but a lot of people I've known, who have even contemplated cheating, were good students who were just succumbing to pressure. The "scumbags" who cheat won't have time to learn the course in the toilets, do you honestly think you could get a good grade by reading a couple of notes? Cop on. People will get what they deserve in the end.

I hope the 'stress' of all the cheating(oh my!)makes your mind go blank in your exams, and you get the grades you deserve.

KnifeWRENCH

*adele* wrote: »

Wah wah people are cheating, do you actually think that'll affect you in any way? If you're as much of a nerd as you seem to be I'm sure you'll do just grand. Get your head out of other peoples business and put it back in the books.
I really do hope you feel ok about ruining a few lives because I'm sure as sh1t that nobody's going back to do their leaving cert at 23, thats not to mention the disappointment their parents will feel. I know you, being sad, think that everyone who cheats is a scumbag but a lot of people I've known, who have even contemplated cheating, were good students who were just succumbing to pressure. The "scumbags" who cheat won't have time to learn the course in the toilets, do you honestly think you could get a good grade by reading a couple of notes? Cop on. People will get what they deserve in the end.

I hope the 'stress' of all the cheating(oh my!)makes your mind go blank in your exams, and you get the grades you deserve.

Lose the attidude or else do not post in this thread again.

randylonghorn

*adele* wrote: »

I really do hope you feel ok about ruining a few lives because I'm sure as sh1t that nobody's going back to do their leaving cert at 23

If people cheat, who ruins their lives, themselves or the person who spots them?

Would you feel as sorry for them if they cheated you out of money tomorrow?

I hope the 'stress' of all the cheating(oh my!)makes your mind go blank in your exams, and you get the grades you deserve.

I hope she does get the grades she deserves, if, as she says, she's worked hard.

To come back to my earlier question, how would you feel if I turned round to you and said "oh, since you don't mind cheating, I hope someone cheats you tomorrow, it's what you deserve!"

Have a bit of cop-on, please.




Edit: Lol, snap, Knifey!

t4k30

Bust the mofo's !

fufureida

[/QUOTE]Wah wah people are cheating, do you actually think that'll affect you in any way?

*adele* wrote: »

Get your head out of other peoples business

*adele* wrote: »

If a thousand people are cheating their way into a course that they don't deserve, then it's everyones buisness. Can you imagine that for example that 2000 people have applied for course X, and 500 of those people cheat in their exams, gain 20 points from doing so and manage to get enough points for a course they didn't deserve, stealing the opportunity from others?

*adele* wrote: »

*I really do hope you feel ok about ruining a few lives because I'm sure as sh1t that nobody's going back to do their leaving cert at 23. thats not to mention the disappointment their parents will feel.*

Excuse me? It's not about feeling great, it's about giving everyone the equal chance. The leaving cert is very competitive, just like say a race. A guy whose pumped up on steroids, wins the game: is that fair on everyone else who trained so hard? No it's not.

I'm sorry but you are really stupid if you think people don't repeat at 23. People repeat at 40. Fact.

*adele* wrote: »

...everyone who cheats is a scumbag but a lot of people I've known, who have even contemplated cheating, were good students who were just succumbing to pressure. The "scumbags" who cheat won't have time to learn the course in the toilets...

If they were good students then why cheat. Dishonesty distilled at birth I say. yeah they are scumbags... People who cheat on their partners who they have been with for 6 years are scumbags.... People who commit a crime and end up in prison for 6 years are scumbags... People who cheat in their leaving cert are scumbags.

*adele* wrote: »

I hope the 'stress' of all the cheating(oh my!)makes your mind go blank in your exams, and you get the grades you deserve.

Oooooh. Harsh.*

Lol.

MmmmmCheese

Maybe this has been said before but I find it ironic how people can find the time to complain here instead of studying, and then rant about how people who cheat steal their college place.

Maybe if they spent their time studying, not on here ranting, they wouldn't worry so much about cheaters getting higher points than them in their exams.

fufureida

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

Maybe this has been said before but I find it ironic how people can find the time to complain here instead of studying, and then rant about how people who cheat steal their college place.

Maybe if they spent their time studying, not on here ranting, they wouldn't worry so much about cheaters getting higher points than them in their exams.

Heard of multi tasking? It's a well adapted skill at LC level.

*adele*

Hahah you edited and still failed at quoting? Oh maaaan, someones bitter because cheaters bet him out of that jam making course.

fufureida

*adele* wrote: »

Hahah you edited and still failed at quoting? Oh maaaan, someones bitter because cheaters bet him out of that jam making course.

It's called a mobile phone that doesn't do things right.
The fact that you pointed that out shows how low of a person you really are.

Oh, and she... Btw.

KnifeWRENCH

Lose the attidude or else do not post in this thread again

*adele* wrote: »

Hahah you edited and still failed at quoting? Oh maaaan, someones bitter because cheaters bet him out of that jam making course.

Was it the simplicity of the instructions that confused you?

You're just trolling now. Banned for 1 week.

fufureida

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

Was it the simplicity of the instructions that confused you?

You're just trolling now. Banned for 1 week.

I like your ban stick..

Killer Pigeon

*adele* wrote: »

Wah wah people are cheating, do you actually think that'll affect you in any way? If you're as much of a nerd as you seem to be I'm sure you'll do just grand. Get your head out of other peoples business and put it back in the books.

Comments like that have already been addressed on this thread.

*adele* wrote: »

I really do hope you feel ok about ruining a few lives because I'm sure as sh1t that nobody's going back to do their leaving cert at 23, thats not to mention the disappointment their parents will feel. I know you, being sad, think that everyone who cheats is a scumbag but a lot of people I've known, who have even contemplated cheating, were good students who were just succumbing to pressure.

What you're saying make absolutely no sense. If someone needs to repeat their Leaving Cert it's (a) because they didn't bother their behind to open a book and study and got bad marks because of this (b) thought they could have done better and want to repeat the LC to do get their college course, or (c) had other personal issues that effected their performance during the exams. I would have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for someone who didn't bother to study and was caught cheating during a state exam and couldn't do a state exam until they were ~23. They deserve what's coming to them. It's their own fault for getting caught and their own fault for not having the initiative to study. You should perhaps think about the honest people who put the effort into studying for the leaving cert and who's life was ruined because someone who cheated stole their college place from them. The people you 'know' who contemplated cheating should have thought about studying months in advance and not at the last minute.

*adele* wrote: »

The "scumbags" who cheat won't have time to learn the course in the toilets, do you honestly think you could get a good grade by reading a couple of notes? Cop on. People will get what they deserve in the end.

Cheating is cheating, no matter what way you put it. People could easily write down all the quote they need for the LC English course on a few peaces of paper and hide them in the toilets somewhere. After reading the question on the actually exam paper, they could go into the toilet and learn about 3-4 quote, out the 20 that he/she had written on the piece of paper, and use them for an essay question. This is cheating, no matter what way you put it and raised the mark they got in the end.

Killer Pigeon

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

Maybe this has been said before but I find it ironic how people can find the time to complain here instead of studying, and then rant about how people who cheat steal their college place.

Maybe if they spent their time studying, not on here ranting, they wouldn't worry so much about cheaters getting higher points than them in their exams.

Maybe not everyone on here is actually doing the leaving cert this year.

MmmmmCheese

fufureida wrote: »

Heard of multi tasking? It's a well adapted skill at LC level.

Thanks but I did my leaving cert last year and I know that you don't need distractions like these when you should be focused on your own exams.

MmmmmCheese

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Maybe not everyone on here is actually doing the leaving cert this year.

I know, I'm talking about the people who are.

Killer Pigeon

*adele* wrote: »

Hahah you edited and still failed at quoting? Oh maaaan, someones bitter because cheaters bet him out of that jam making course.

Alert: We have a troll in our midst, everyone run for cover!!

randylonghorn

Jeez, we've had plenty of those over the last few days.

No casualties reported so far!

Killer Pigeon

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

I know, I'm talking about the people who are.

Good point but if these issues aren't raised now they will be later and they should be raised. The question is when is the best time for a case of cheating in exams to be raised, now or after the exam? If the OP reported the case of cheating in two months time would it have had a greater impact as it did now, especially in the media?

rebel girl 15

randylonghorn wrote: »

The best maths teacher I ever had was (technically) not qualified according to their definition; the worst one I had was!!

Ok, I'm not arguing that people shouldn't have the best teachers possible, or that they shouldn't be fully qualified ... but having maths in final year in degree doesn't necessarily mean you will be good at teaching it, or vice versa.

I agree completely with the last sentence, having maths as part of a degree without any pedagogy (learning how to teach) won't make you a good teacher, and vice versa. Most teachers do a degree in one subject, say maths studies and then do a HDip for a year, whereas some other teachers complete a B.Ed programme in their subject, and come out better teachers. Both are as qualified, one has 3/4 years experience in learning how to teach, the other has one. Some of the Teaching Councils definitions of being qualified can be unusual.

Bree123 wrote: »

Yup that's a funny point actually. I found out recently the teacher I went to to get extra classes in maths was actually among that 40%, were as the teacher I had for normal classes was fully qualified and was not really.....hmmm....helping my understand things. She was a very nice person indeed but I just couldn't get my head around what she was teaching.
.

The problem with some qualified teachers imo is that they are overqualified. I'm doing maths as part of a B.Ed program, concurrent degree so my lectures are in with maths studies students, and 95 per cent of the stuff I have learned does not apply to teaching the current or future LC maths course. I'm lucky in that for the next two years we'll have specific lectures dedicated in how to teach maths at JC and LC level, but those taking maths and maybe another subject won't have that, and then will go on to a PGDE course and learn how to teach in general. I had a teacher in fourth year, highly intelligent person at maths and physics, but no offence to the woman, was a very poor teacher, one of the mods here knows who I am referring to. With us, she tried to find the hardest way to do the problem, when an easier solution was there, but she could not see it. I would have guessed that she came out with first class honours in her degree.

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

I would disagree, regarding the Maths the failure for the Irish education system to accept that it has to modernize and "get real" about it's current teaching methods and behaviors.

As I have a small hobby to follow the way education is thought around the world and it never ceases to amaze me how much better it is in other countries!

I once spoke with a very passionate girl from Australia. She just finished her studies and loved to work in Ireland and the Irish education system to support special learning, she had great ideas but she was warned that her motivation and passion for teaching would die quickly in Ireland. Why? teachers here don't want to learn new methods! she now works in the UK

..so we are stuck yet again..

Fixed that (presume you mean countries and no countries?)Get real?? There is a huge review of all curriculum ongoing at the moment - there is no curriculum that covers every syllabi presently, something that is best practise all over the world. Could you explain what do you mean by modernize? Every syllabus is set and teachers are very reluctant to step outside it, maybe its that we should be encouraging them to step outside it may help?? The recent attempt to modernise maths is very very poor! Each syllabus sets out to be the second best type of syllabus, but ends up being the third best type, so whats written down and what is actually done is quite far apart!

Its not that all the teachers here want to learn new methods, they are very much constricted in what they think they can do. A syllabus is there, and that is all that should be taught, use this method to achieve the learning outcomes etc. One year in a HDip (PGDE as it is now known) is extremely hard - learning how to teach in that short space of time, being thrown into a school and told teach while also going to college. The best teachers are lifelong learners and have a principal willing to send them to inservices and are willing to go. But its very hard at the moment, because of all the cuts.

As part of one module this year, we looked at the curriculum from NZ, UK and Ireland, and it was quite an eyeopener. The NZ and UK ones are tied together, subjects and their syllabi branch across and are linked, whereas in Ireland, there is no overarching document to state the aims of the curriculum (i.e. what a student should be after completing second level) and each subject is sat in its own box, no link to another subject. Students in four year teaching programmes are way more likely to hear about things like how to link subjects rather than students in a one year PGDE. Simple example - biology and PE, huge links can be made. Home Ec and Business, Geography and Science. I remember for business we were involved in a link with a major company in the town, but it helped link some of the theory in the book with real life. Take JC maths, using slices of pizza to represent fractions, or using the concept of money in a bank account to understand negative numbers. The other curricula were all about developing the students as a whole, not just as robots who are encouraged to stuff in as much as they can and regurgitate it on a day in June. I think the NZ one had an aspect of continuous assessment, and it is something that is badly needed here!

We had to design our own curriculum from the three above, and to be honest, most of my inspiration came from the NZ one, none from the Irish one. The Irish curriculum tries very hard to be one type, but the reality is much different, whereas the NZ document is set out to be an excllent type and is implemented (told by a guest speaker). Take PE in Ireland, the syllabus is broken into seven strands, but only three of these are predominately used, games is a top one. But some students may be bad at soccer or tennis, particular games but still have to do them. Teachers end up teaching a couple of skills in that particular game for six weeks, and the students end up with some proficiency in a game. Contrast that to NZ, their syllabus is much broader, and the teachers are more open to think outside the box, our guest speaker told us of a six week module that she ran called striking; the students learned how to hit a cricket ball, golf ball, tennis ball, baseball and two other striking actions. Within six weeks, the students got some aspect of technical proficiency in a variety of sports. The syllabus allowed her to make her own decisions yet still achieve the required learning outcomes.

The teacher education system needs to be examined closely as well as devising an overall curriculum - its like having a business where all the departments have a document outlining their specific departmental aims, but there is no mission statement or a document stating the aim of the business.

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Yes, and also make sure that Leaving cert Maths isn't dumbed down in the process of modernising and improving teaching standards as is evident in the newly proposed "Project Maths" syllabus.

That project maths is a bit of a joke going by the sample papers, haven't seen the actual paper, that has huge implications for people going on to third level. The Government thinks that dumbing it down so much will increase the people taking HL maths, and yes it will, but it defeats the purpose of HL, HL in any paper is supposed to pose problems to a student, get them thinking. I read a commnt somewhere along the lines of the Dept of Education was getting bad press about those not taking/failing HL maths that it decided to push all the way to the other side! Colleges will now have a huge problem on their hands, having to make up for the stuff not done at second level, its ridiculous!

The problem is that students depend so much on rote learning that critical thinking goes out the window - the paper has been dumbed down, the HL paper would be quite close in difficulty to the OL paper of 15 years ago, if not below it. Rote learning has become a norm and the LC is a science now, by knowing the format of the paper, the time for each question and how the papers are marked, students can maximise their knowledge from their 5/6 years of being in school. The SEC have copped on to the predictions in the last two years as well, the Irish paper last year and Boland not coming up this year.

Apologies for going off topic so much!

SarahBeep!

If the poster who went to the SEC ever see's me in a pub, make yourself known. I wanna buy you a drink.

Fair play for stepping up, you're the most mature leaving cert in the country. This is gonna stand to you long after those cheaters are stuck making your lunch and scrubbing the floors you'll walk on.

*pats you on back*

evolutionqy7

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

What you're saying make absolutely no sense. If someone needs to repeat their Leaving Cert it's (a) because they didn't bother their behind to open a book and study and got bad marks because of this

you know not every ones a book worm and has a photographic memory...

some stuff like maths is just hard to digest...and especially with the teacher i had (miss i dont get, how can u not get it i just explained it and she moves on)...lol i had no chance of passing it...

if you gave me an open book test i would still scrape it if not fail it cause text books are so poorly written...

did 6 hours grinds every weekend on maths...

2 hours of study everyday all year

took extra classes from a brilliant maths student teacher (main reason i passed maths)

so after all of that i got a D3 in ord maths...so tell me now is that being lazy to open a book...

So what if they take out a book or w/e to look at...you not gonna have an examiner breathing over your right shoulder in real life jobs...some one will always will look for advise or take out a book or google it.

lc has loads of broad subjects too...alot which have no interest to any one! so people dont take it in well...when you go to college or work and do what you like you will do better and show more initiative than you did in ur lc or any other exam...

therokerroar

What's the story about this 'salman' who's name I've seen creep up on not only this thread, but in boards.ie general, quite a bit?

Killer Pigeon

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

That project maths is a bit of a joke going by the sample papers, haven't seen the actual paper, that has huge implications for people going on to third level. The Government thinks that dumbing it down so much will increase the people taking HL maths, and yes it will, but it defeats the purpose of HL, HL in any paper is supposed to pose problems to a student, get them thinking. I read a commnt somewhere along the lines of the Dept of Education was getting bad press about those not taking/failing HL maths that it decided to push all the way to the other side! Colleges will now have a huge problem on their hands, having to make up for the stuff not done at second level, its ridiculous!

The problem is that students depend so much on rote learning that critical thinking goes out the window - the paper has been dumbed down, the HL paper would be quite close in difficulty to the OL paper of 15 years ago, if not below it. Rote learning has become a norm and the LC is a science now, by knowing the format of the paper, the time for each question and how the papers are marked, students can maximise their knowledge from their 5/6 years of being in school. The SEC have copped on to the predictions in the last two years as well, the Irish paper last year and Boland not coming up this year.

Apologies for going off topic so much!

Exactly, I mean the government should think more long term instead of short term in fairness. I've seen the proposed project maths paper and to make a long story short, it's basically like the junior cert but a tiny bit hardy. People who want to do let's say engineering, a vital area in the government planned 'knowledge economy', or other maths related courses wouldn't possible be prepared for the jump from secondary school level to third level and because of this lack of preparedness could come out with a low standard degree.

rebel girl 15

evolutionqy7 wrote: »

So what if they take out a book or w/e to look at...you not gonna have an examiner breathing over your right shoulder in real life jobs...some one will always will look for advise or take out a book or google it.

lc has loads of broad subjects too...alot which have no interest to any one! so people dont take it in well...when you go to college or work and do what you like you will do better and show more initiative than you did in ur lc or any other exam...

Ever wonder why they put in all the formulas into the log tables so students don't have to learn them? What I've been told is that the Dept realized that at any time in the future, students wouldn't be more than a minute away from being able to google the formula

randylonghorn

evolutionqy7 wrote: »

some stuff like maths is just hard to digest...and especially with the teacher i had (miss i dont get, how can u not get it i just explained it and she moves on)...lol i had no chance of passing it...

if you gave me an open book test i would still scrape it if not fail it cause text books are so poorly written...

did 6 hours grinds every weekend on maths...

2 hours of study everyday all year

took extra classes from a brilliant maths student teacher (main reason i passed maths)

so after all of that i got a D3 in ord maths...so tell me now is that being lazy to open a book...

It's not. In fact, you deserve great credit for putting in that much work and passing it.

Not everyone is naturally good at maths, and, as we've just been discussing, not everyone is a good teacher of maths ... many people who are excellent at maths themselves can't explain it to someone who finds it difficult to save their lives.

However ... how does not being good at maths, or any other subject, justify cheating? How does it make it right?

You didn't cheat, you worked hard for your pass. Why should others cheat and get the same result?

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Ever wonder why they put in all the formulas into the log tables so students don't have to learn them? What I've been told is that the Dept realized that at any time in the future, students wouldn't be more than a minute away from being able to google the formula

Sounds about right tbh.

rebel girl 15

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Exactly, I mean the government should think more long term instead of short term in fairness. I've seen the proposed project maths paper and to make a long story short, it's basically like the junior cert but a tiny bit hardy. People who want to do let's say engineering, a vital area in the government planned 'knowledge economy', or other maths related courses wouldn't possible be prepared for the jump from secondary school level to third level and because of this lack of preparedness could come out with a low standard degree.

Irelands education system is looking worse and worse at international level because of it. There will be a huge number of low standard degrees coming out in future - what the Gov did is what it does best, passing the buck; from the secondary schools to the colleges in this case. They made a mess of it, designed it backwards iirc as well. The media built it up about less students taking HL maths, Project Maths is a gigantic leap backwards in terms of developing a knowledge based economy.