what use is Irish?

whatthefeck

Hi
CosmicCrusader your story reminds me of a Mark Twain story, where when he was 16 he though his dad was the most ignorant man he ever knew but by the time he was 18 he could not believe how much he had learnt.

Deep down every Irish person wants to be able to speak Irish,myself included!

CosmicCrusader

whatthefeck wrote: »

Hi
CosmicCrusader your story reminds me of a Mark Twain story where when he was 16 he though his dad was the most ignorant man he ever knew but by the time he was 18 he could not believe how much he had learnt

Deep down every Irish person wants to be able to speak Irish,myself included!

My father IS the most ignorant man I've ever known. The only thing I learnt from him is how not to raise a child! But that's completely off track to what this discussion is about, I've no idea how you even got that from what I said?

And yeah I agree with the last part. Everyone says they hate Irish and that it's evil, but deep down they all wish they could speak it.

whatthefeck

The quite was a reference to how I see the Irish attitudes of teenagers (and others) towards Irish. Many changing there attitude with time. I should have made that more clear.

Defiantly not any family aspersion a chara!!

Maigh Eo

For those that are from Mayo check out Gnó Mhaigh Eo and for all those who live in Galway check out Gaillimhe le Gaeilge.

Feicfidh tú ansin cén fáth go bhfuil daoine fós ag labhairt ár teanga dúchas.

Fuinseog

Maigh Eo wrote: »

For those that are from Mayo check out Gnó Mhaigh Eo and for all those who live in Galway check out Gaillimhe le Gaeilge.

Feicfidh tú ansin cén fáth go bhfuil daoine fós ag labhairt ár teanga dúchas.

Gaillimh le Gaeilge is just fot business. having signs as gaeilge does not prove anzthing. its more a decoration or something to look quaint for the tourists na aon ni eile

Maigh Eo

Fuinseog, a chara

Tuigim céard atá le rá agat, ach nach ceapann tú go bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar chuid den ár gcultúr, ár teanga, is ár gcuid fréamhacha is go raibh ag ár sean mhuintir a bheith ag troid in aghaidh muintir Sasanna fadó, so go mbeidh ár teanga féin fós againn sa lá atá inniu ann. Ní amhain é sin ach tá sean traidisiúin i gceist freisin, béaloideas, piseoga, nósanna agus mar sin. Ar chuala tú faoi Gnó Mhaigh Eo? www.gnomhaigheo.ie

Fuinseog

Maigh Eo wrote: »

Fuinseog, a chara

Tuigim céard atá le rá agat, ach nach ceapann tú go bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar chuid den ár gcultúr, ár teanga, is ár gcuid fréamhacha is go raibh ag ár sean mhuintir a bheith ag troid in aghaidh muintir Sasanna fadó, so go mbeidh ár teanga féin fós againn sa lá atá inniu ann. Ní amhain é sin ach tá sean traidisiúin i gceist freisin, béaloideas, piseoga, nósanna agus mar sin. Ar chuala tú faoi Gnó Mhaigh Eo? www.gnomhaigheo.ie

ta an ceart agat. is cuid ar gcultur i an Ghaeilge. don chuid is mo den daonra afach, ta si ceangailte len stair amhain agus nil suim da laghad ag an cuid is mo de na daoine daoin sean saol srl.

cen fath nach labhrann nios mo daoine Gaeilge mar ghnath theanga? nil se chomh deacair.

LimeFruitGum

I've been to a couple of Gaeltachts - Ring, Spiddal, Carraroe, Inis Mór and I usually just heard English when I was there

I went to the Aran islands for a weekend before my college Irish oral exams to get some practise in and I ended speaking more German there than Irish.
Or in the case of Rathcarn, there weren't very many people around to actually get talking to

So if the natives won't speak it with someone who really wants to speak their language, there isn't much hope. I really tried to make an effort to speak in Irish with the locals I met in those areas, but they were just trying to flog me an Irish course or a B&B run by some col ceathrar. :-/

I do understand if the Gaelgóir gets frustrated and switches to English because it is easier, but isn't that just shooting it in the foot? I actually get to speak more Irish in Dublin than I do in the actual Gaeltachtaí.

Fuinseog

labhair Gaeilge leo. is cuma cen teanga a labhrann siad leatsa.

people also have a misconception towards the language. if you learn it in school you only use irish words, while if you speak it as a normal language you use a lot of english. a kind of anglo Gaelic dialect is prevalent in the gaeltacht. when Ros na Run first came on air a lot of people, especially in dublin ridiculed it, because they used so man english phrases and words.

Krusader

An bhfuil tú alright? comes to mind

cupan_tae

I think you need to look at it from their (the locals) point of view. If you walked down the street anywhere and started conversations with everyone you met you would get a similar reaction. I’m sure in Dublin you definitely wouldn’t get too far.... : ) I’m sure the locals between themselves its pure Irish. Imagine if every weekend you had someone approaching you on the steet sparking up little conversations in pigeon English – it would soon ware thin !

I think its time to look beyond the gaeltachtaí. While they are to be respected and preserved they are not the future. There can be a Gaeltacht in any house or any street if one so wishes ! You don’t need to put up sign up and declare it. Just to it , be bilingual, be happy and don’t be searching for something that is already inside you.

Krusader

Sin é go díreach, Táim leat. Gaeilge na cathrach atá an todhchaí

Teifeach

cupan_tae wrote: »

I think you need to look at it from their (the locals) point of view. If you walked down the street anywhere and started conversations with everyone you met you would get a similar reaction. I’m sure in Dublin you definitely wouldn’t get too far.... : ) I’m sure the locals between themselves its pure Irish. Imagine if every weekend you had someone approaching you on the steet sparking up little conversations in pigeon English – it would soon ware thin !

I think its time to look beyond the gaeltachtaí. While they are to be respected and preserved they are not the future. There can be a Gaeltacht in any house or any street if one so wishes ! You don’t need to put up sign up and declare it. Just to it , be bilingual, be happy and don’t be searching for something that is already inside you.

I couldnt agree with you more a chara , well said , i speak Irish as much as i can. Even though i dont live in a Gaeltacht area , i know so many Irish speakers it can sometimes feel like one as i text and chat with them all in Irish , and ANYWHERE We meet like in the pub , street, cafe , Restaurant we chat in Irish
is leor beirt ...
it may seem simplistic to some and wrong to others but Not to me .. if im chating with mates in a bar at a table and its all in Irish .. to me thats Gaeltacht , and the same no matter where this happens .. People need to get outta the idea that you have to go to a Gaeltacht to speak Irish , Today is my Birthday and i am meeting Irish speaking mates and im sure the language of the day will be Irisdh accept when ordering drinks or telling the taxi man where i live lol ..
Irish isnt sacred its for Everyone from the first day learner to the Native speaker , the Gaeltacht isnt sacred .. its a place where Irish is Spoken .. so is my local bar lol
Irish is Irish is Irish , sin é

stephanus

Couldn't the question also be "What use is English"?

Fuinseog

stephanus wrote: »

Couldn't the question also be "What use is English"?

well no, not really. if you go into most shops in ireland with the exception of a few polish ones they will understand english. with irish that is not the case.

stephanus

What I was trying to express was that any language is of use as long as it fulfills the requirements of language.

The question is not of what use Irish can be. The question is what use we make of Irish.

To me "What use is Irish" sounds like giving up on it. That sounds like questioning the usefulness of Irish although Irish can be used in every respect of modern life just as English.

I am following your discussions very closely as I am interested in languages in general and Celtic languages in particular. I am not usually one to express opinions about things going on in other countries and I have thought twice before writing in this thread. I just see that the Irish discussion, if I may call it such, is a culmination of what I perceive to be happening nowadays all over the world: The dying of languages and the giving up on them because they seem to appear useless to cope with modern life.

If I may give my personal tiny wee bit opinion I think that any language deserves to be treated in a dignified way. It is language which has enabled us to become what we are. And that is possible in any language.
It takes a carpenter years to become aquainted with his tools. Questioning the usefulness of a language is like an apprentice saying that a certain tool is useless just because he has not yet had enough experience with it.

After all, language is fun - any language. (It's perhaps the sun getting the better of me and making me write lengthy paragraphs.:rolleyes:)

pog it

It's great to have you on board Stephanus! It's annoying when people from other countries are negative towards the language or judgemental in general. What gives them the right? Those of us pro Irish hear enough of that in this country and so you are a breath of fresh air.

Krusader

to be fair there are alot of europeans and americans interested in the Irish language and there are some universities on both continents that have Irish courses

pog it

Crosáidí wrote: »

to be fair there are alot of europeans and americans interested in the Irish language and there are some universities on both continents that have Irish courses

There are definitely! And it's great that they are interested and are positive towards the language. It helps Irish people appreciate even more what we have. But there are negative outsiders, they were who I was referring to.
We need as much positivity as possible instead of people just discussing Irish and claiming on a census that they can speak it. Just get out and learn it!

Fuinseog

stephanus wrote: »

What I was trying to express was that any language is of use as long as it fulfills the requirements of language.

The question is not of what use Irish can be. The question is what use we make of Irish.

To me "What use is Irish" sounds like giving up on it. That sounds like questioning the usefulness of Irish although Irish can be used in every respect of modern life just as English.

Irish can be used for general chit chat, but not for everything as it does not always have an adequate vocab and some of its lexical borrowings from English are laughable.
there is also only a miniscule modern literature for Irish. there is only one newspaper in the language and that is rather parochial. few authors writing in Irish have much to say.

Fuinseog

We need as much positivity as possible instead of people just discussing Irish and claiming on a census that they can speak it. Just get out and learn it![/QUOTE]


you have beginners classes on ever street corner as well as beginners books. for those who want to progress past a few phrases they find themselves in something of a wasteland.

Fuinseog

Crosáidí wrote: »

to be fair there are alot of europeans and americans interested in the Irish language and there are some universities on both continents that have Irish courses

I am wary of continentals interested in learning Irish. many of them are away with the faeries and think there are druids around Ireland.

deirdremf

DeBrugha wrote: »

The best places for Irish (ie, hearing Irish everywhere by all ages) would be around south Conamara from Spidéal onward in Galway and the Aran islands, and northwest Donegal around Gweedore, and around Dún Chaoin in Kerry in these places Irish is the main language and you will have no problem speaking Irish.

I wouldn't reccomend Dingle, it isn't Irish speaking. One of the places mentioned above is what I would reccomend. In every Gaeltacht area you always get areas that isn't Irish speaking, Mayo is hardly Irish speaking apart from the village of Carrowteige, that is the only area in Mayo where more than half speak Irish still.

Galway or Donegal would be the best bet.

Some people in Dingle can be very rude if you speak to them in Irish. I think twice about spending any money there as a result, and only if I know I'll get served in Irish - or at least politely.
The supermarkets are mostly appalling; although they don't speak much Irish in Lidl, I prefer to shop there. And and I was insulted to my face by one bar owner. I won't step inside that place again.
They were so thrilled with their "world-famous brand name" that they forgot how much they depend on the Gaeltacht and visitors to the Gaeltacht.
I wonder how they're doing now with the recession?

deirdremf

Jay1989 wrote: »

how come, out of curiosity?

But there is plenty of Irish spoken in the area stretching from Dún Chaoin to Feothanach. It's more rural there, but the people aren't as spoilt either as they are in an Daingean.

deirdremf

Teifeach wrote: »

i dont get the train of thought that i went here or there and never heard Irish , or i used it in a Gaeltacht and was replied to with English ,, but recieved what i requested i.e Beer , Tea etc.

Even in strong Gaeltachts many of the people running shops and pubs have spoken English in the home for a long time, sent their kids to boarding schools far from home, and so on.
Many of them prefer to speak to you in English, you will have to be persistent with that class of person, but they are not representative of the general population.
Also it may be cool among teenagers to speak English among themselves, so you will hear a lot more English than you might imagine.

deirdremf

Maigh Eo wrote: »

Fuinseog, a chara

Tuigim céard atá le rá agat, ach nach ceapann tú go bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar chuid den ár gcultúr, ár teanga, is ár gcuid fréamhacha is go raibh ag ár sean mhuintir a bheith ag troid in aghaidh muintir Sasanna fadó, so go mbeidh ár teanga féin fós againn sa lá atá inniu ann. Ní amhain é sin ach tá sean traidisiúin i gceist freisin, béaloideas, piseoga, nósanna agus mar sin. Ar chuala tú faoi Gnó Mhaigh Eo? www.gnomhaigheo.ie

Is maith an áis é sin, go raibh maith agat as ucht é a chur ar mo shúile agam.
An bhfuil a leithéid ann do cheantracha eile, an bhfuil a fhios agat?

Aard

It saddens me to hear that Dingle has lost its Irishness. As a kid, I used to go down there every year to my great-granny, and we'd speak Irish together. In retrospect, it probably had more to do with my not being able to understand her English accent, but, still, Irish was alive and well in her house at least.

deirdremf wrote: »

...and I was insulted to my face by one bar owner. I won't step inside that place again.

Probably embarrassed that you have more Irish than him!

RetroRuss

Dia daoibh!

I've been studying Irish for half a year now, and I think it's a great language. It has a softer overall sound than English, and seems like it's very good for poetry and other creative expression in writing. While the grammar can take some getting used to, I enjoy the ever changing nature of the Irish language. Lenitions and eclipses make every sentence fresh compared to English where it always stays the same. I've found that learning Irish has allowed me to look at language in a whole new way.

It's sad to know that it's not spoken very much anymore, but I do hope that I can go to a Gaeltacht someday where it is still strong. I think Irish has a lot of overlooked potential.

That said, I've really enjoyed this thread. It's interesting to hear about everyone's experiences.

stephanus

Generally speaking I believe that any language is capable of meeting the needs of modern society if only people did it. There may not be the odd word for the odd modern bit but it can be found and expressed. I have experienced the same phenomenon in German. I work for an airline and hey you would not believe the flood of English words and expressions we have to use. My colleagues just use them without thinking about how they could express things in German. They have come so far as to be creative in English terms only even with German words or directly with English. I am so to say the only person in this whole company who uses German terms and who even coins new German expressions for English ones which so far had no German equivalent. And that works and it is really fun exerting my little grey cells . I am not only translating word for word. As a trained translator I implement the whole range of possibilities going so far as to express an English noun with a verb in German. It takes only a little exercise and it works. (founding my own little Gearmáinteacht ) What I am trying to say is that it is possible to bring any language up to "modern" standards and I know this to be true as I am experiencing it.


@Fuinseog: Don't be wary. I am NOT after fairies or druids. I am well aware of the fact that a Gealtacht is not a zoo and that people there should not be judged in terms of Irishness only but in terms of being humans. I simply enjoy Celtic languages and Irish and Welsh in particular. I don't expect to find craic wherever I go in Ireland but people who live their lives as any human being does everywhere else with their ups and downs. Yes that is how far realism has got with me.:rolleyes:

stephanus

Addenda: Please don't misunderstand me. I am not trying to say that you ave to do things this way or that way. I am certainly not in the position to do that. I simply want to show that it is possible to bring any language up to a level to cope with the intricacies of "modern" society and to give those a positive feedback who feel a little down.

the_syco

Fuinseog wrote: »

I have spent the last year travelling through this country and have arrived at the conclusion that less than 5% are able or willing to have a normal conversation in the language.

How does one do this? Was only ever taught to quote poems and stories: never to speak it. Ended up doing Foundo in the LC

Is the Pimsleur Irish course of any use? Would prefer to learn how to say it, than to write it, if only to understand what the lads are on about on the Irish radio station inbetween the Irish songs (I like my trad).

Fuinseog wrote: »

some of its lexical borrowings from English are laughable.

Like how some english words were French, German, etc?

dlofnep

the syco - i've heard really great comments in regards to the oideas gael course in donegal, for people who want to learn spoken irish. they are usually a week long, but alot of people stay for 2 weeks. i think they have like 10 different levels to cater for all kinds of people.

Krusader

Fuinseog wrote: »

Irish can be used for general chit chat, but not for everything as it does not always have an adequate vocab and some of its lexical borrowings from English are laughable.

Why doesn't Irish the vocab for the modern world, I think you need to realise that Irish and English are two different languages in syntax, while English is a verbal language, Irish is largely prepositional

approx, 60% of the English language comes from other languages
approx. 20% of the Irish language comes from other languages
Its inconceivable to think that languages don't borrow from each other

JayeL

I think that it would be best if those promoting the language stopped trying to find a use for it. Irish was the language of the majority of Irish people some time ago; it is not anymore and probably never will be again. Once this fact is accepted, the language can be liberated.

Instead of pretending we're this bilingual country with Irish-speaking monoglots that need everything translated for them, why not transfer the burden of keeping the language alive on those who speak it every day? No grants, no tax breaks, nothing in it for anyone except the love of the language.

The attraction of Irish would then be that it has no other purpose than the love of speaking it. No "use" for it per se, but worth keeping alive for the right reasons all the same.

Krusader

the_syco wrote: »

Is the Pimsleur Irish course of any use? Would prefer to learn how to say it, than to write it, if only to understand what the lads are on about on the Irish radio station inbetween the Irish songs (I like my trad).

Pimsleur is based on Munster pronounciation, so if you like your Kerry and Cork, it will give you a tús maith

heres some reviews on it

http://www.learnirishgaelic.com/productcomparison/productdetails.php?cmp_product_id=7

Jinny Joe

Original Question. What use is Irish ? My answer "None!"
A language is used to communicate. All Irish people can communicate using the English language. Irish is merely a hobby used by comparative few. It is a very expensive hobby paid for by every person in the land, not only in monetary terms but by the many years wasted in early education. This time could be used for other subjects including a living language to help us integrate with the real world. When people reach second level education should be time enough to decide to learn a bygone dead language. Many people study classical languages by choice at adulthood. We should allow the people of Ireland the right to make a choice regarding the Celtic equivalent.
What really surprises me is the way the European parliament bowed to demands to make Irish an official European language ! I suppose this helps spread the cost of a very expensive hobby.

Krusader

Jinny Joe wrote: »

Original Question. What use is Irish ? My answer "None!"
A language is used to communicate. All Irish people can communicate using the English language. Irish is merely a hobby used by comparative few. It is a very expensive hobby paid for by every person in the land, not only in monetary terms but by the many years wasted in early education. This time could be used for other subjects including a living language to help us integrate with the real world. When people reach second level education should be time enough to decide to learn a bygone dead language. Many people study classical languages by choice at adulthood. We should allow the people of Ireland the right to make a choice regarding the Celtic equivalent.
What really surprises me is the way the European parliament bowed to demands to make Irish an official European language ! I suppose this helps spread the cost of a very expensive hobby.

Níl sí marbh, tá mé ag scríobh chugat anois i nGaeilge, Tá sí beo agus tá sí go maith. Is Éireannaigh muide, is í ár dteanga dhuchais. glac leis. tá sí anseo a fhanacht

pog it

Fuinseog wrote: »

you have beginners classes on ever street corner as well as beginners books. for those who want to progress past a few phrases they find themselves in something of a wasteland.

I agree for sure that there aren't a lot of direct learning resources to bring you from say lower intermediate to higher intermediate.
RTE haven't made anything available materials wise in the way that BBC have for Donegal Irish and Scots Gaelic.

But- to be honest, i can't agree that is is something of a wasteland. There is RnaG and a lot of reading material in current affairs, and in literature. And there is TG4. So once you have the basics, like any language, you need to push yourself up to the next level. Lament the lack of resources, but for sure, it's not an excuse for not progressing.

Krusader

Turas teanga is great intermediate resource
start reading adult learner novels

the_syco

dlofnep wrote: »

they are usually a week long

I've found that classroom learning of any sort doesn't suit me, so a week would be a waste, until I learn more than just the bare basics.

Crosáidí wrote: »

Pimsleur is based on Munster pronounciation, so if you like your Kerry and Cork, it will give you a tús maith

Family on my fathers side is from the Kingdom, so no bother there

nbrome

Crosáidí wrote: »

Turas teanga is great intermediate resource
start reading adult learner novels

Can anyone recommend a good adult learner novel? I'm on lesson 23 of Learning Irish by O'Siadhail (if that means anything to anyone).
I like detective-type stories, and would like to avoid love stories and teen stories. As with other languages I find it productive to read, even when I don't understand every word.
I must admit I've been a bit put off by the simplistic covers of some of the adult learner books I've seen on the net.

Enkidu

nbrome wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a good adult learner novel? I'm on lesson 23 of Learning Irish by O'Siadhail (if that means anything to anyone).
I like detective-type stories, and would like to avoid love stories and teen stories. As with other languages I find it productive to read, even when I don't understand every word.
I must admit I've been a bit put off by the simplistic covers of some of the adult learner books I've seen on the net.

Hi nbrome,

Sceon na Mara by Liam Ó Muirthile is a recently published detective novel (2010). You can see the details of it here:
http://coislife.ie/Leabhar.aspx?ID=105

I read the start of it and really liked it, planning on buying it myself.

pog it

An siondacáit by Eoghan Ó Grádaigh

Another detective novel. Tis perfect for intermediate level reading.

nbrome

Thanks guys. I think An siondacáit would be too much for me, it seems to be a normal detective novel and not a learners' one.
Don't know about Sceon na Mara. There is an excerpt from it on that link and I'm undecided as to whether I can manage it. However, will have a longer look at it.
Otherwise I might end up with a love story in a book with a red heart on the cover.

pog it

nbrome wrote: »

Thanks guys. I think An siondacáit would be too much for me, it seems to be a normal detective novel and not a learners' one.
Don't know about Sceon na Mara. There is an excerpt from it on that link and I'm undecided as to whether I can manage it. However, will have a longer look at it.
Otherwise I might end up with a love story in a book with a red heart on the cover.

For someone on lesson 23 of Learning Irish An Siondacáit is a great progression. It was the first book that I read when I first went back to Irish.
Anything you don't know, you can look up, or ask here. Simple.

flynnboy

What is the 'use' of trying to preserve endangered species ?

Enkidu

pog it wrote: »

An siondacáit by Eoghan Ó Grádaigh

Another detective novel. Tis perfect for intermediate level reading.

Hey pog it,

Never tried the book, did you find it a good read storywise? Also is it in standard Irish or a dialect?

pog it

Enkidu wrote: »

Hey pog it,

Never tried the book, did you find it a good read storywise? Also is it in standard Irish or a dialect?

It's a grand little book.. it's not heavily colloquial but I think it's in Munster dialect. That or it's someone very fluent who concentrated on Munster dialect! It's more than decent. Was published in 1969 but it doesn't come over as overly dated to its credit!

Cú Giobach

Crosáidí wrote: »

Níl sí marbh, tá mé ag scríobh chugat anois i nGaeilge, Tá sí beo agus tá sí go maith. Is Éireannaigh muide, is í ár dteanga dhuchais. glac leis. tá sí anseo a fhanacht

Maith an fear/bean, níl a lán Gaeilge agam ach tá mé i nGrá leis an teanga,
Rud amháin, Tá sí beo ach níl sí "go maith", tá sí go hálainn!!! Gaeilge Abú!!!!

Fuinseog

But- to be honest, i can't agree that is is something of a wasteland. There is RnaG and a lot of reading material in current affairs, and in literature. And there is TG4. So once you have the basics, like any language, you need to push yourself up to the next level. Lament the lack of resources, but for sure, it's not an excuse for not progressing.[/QUOTE]

RnaG I cannot listen to. it is a bit too localised with very local issues that are not of interest to urban dwellers.
it also give sthe impression that bog Irish is the norm.