Now that Natal/Kinect has been unveiled...

cheeseofdoom

I think the fact that there is a Star Wars game makes it a lot more appealing.

I wouldn't buy it for the family/casual games but I played the Ricochet demo game and it was kinda fun. It's strange not using any controller and having a sensor seamlessly pick up two players while ignoring people standing behind them. Also the whole navigating through your music, movies and games using hand gestures is a pretty nice feature. I didn't feel as though it picked up all of my hand movements when I was moving quite fast to hit the ball but I was told that this was not the final build.

cheeseofdoom

Also, you'd want to be careful because I kicked the foot of the person I was playing with quite hard, we forgot we were standing next to each other and clashed feet. Ouch. Imagine a footie game in close proximity!

EGriff

Can't see how a lightsaber or any kind of sword fight would work since there's no resistance. As in you swing your arms, the guys on screen swings but gets blocked and then you're gone totally out of sync because you followed through.

Just like in red steel. (Which was rubbish(though I haven't played the second 1))

Venom

I can see it working from a Microsoft point of view as it will pull in sales from homes that have a 360 but want some of the Wii style party games but cant be bothered buying another console. They also get the menus and rest of the new dashboard.

From a real gamer point of view I just cant see it working for various reasons...

1) no buttons to press seriously limits game functionality.

2) lack of any must have launch software wont get people queing up overnight to buy it.

3) playing a current big name title like Forza or Halo would tire the player out damm quick. Try holding your arms out like the racing games demoed and see how long you will last

A mix of kinect + wireless xbox controller tho could be a damm sweet combo tho but only time will tell.

rizzla

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

Venom wrote: »

3) playing a current big name title like Forza or Halo would tire the player out damm quick. Try holding your arms out like the racing games demoed and see how long you will last

Yeah but imagine how cool it will be driving with the controler in cockpit view but being able to move your head to look around the cockpit. Checking your left and right mirrors with the slight turn of your head.

Captain Chaos

rizzla wrote: »

Yeah but imagine how cool it will be driving with the controler in cockpit view but being able to move your head to look around the cockpit. Checking your left and right mirrors with the slight turn of your head.

That would be class. Thats how Track IR works, I use it with flight sims and tactical shooters. It makes games alot easier and more involved and natural.

rizzla

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

That's where I see the most potential. Not in fully Kinect games but more of a hybrid between standard controls and the device.

WolfForager

Sounds fantastic!

hightower1 wrote: »

Move will die on its a**e , its clearly a rip off wii whereas kinect is an evolution of the media, socom looks like a glorified time crisis game ffs.

That's like saying that Natal is a rip off of the PS eye.

Ye i went there.

Mcjmetroid

Sounds fantastic!

WolfForager wrote: »

That's like saying that Natal is a rip off of the PS eye.

Ye i went there.

Which was a rip-off of a dreamcast project called the dreameye

Look Kinection was a disappointment at e3, The games were extremely uninspired and it's funny how the possibilities seem endless for a hands-free controller but yet it ends up looking more limited than the wii-mote.

I believe sony MOVE will finally show hardcore gamers the fuss about motion gaming once and for all.

Captain Chaos

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

I believe sony MOVE will finally show hardcore gamers the fuss about motion gaming once and for all.

I think Kinect did that when it showed off the head tracking while driving in Forza 3, that was better and more practical that SOCOM 4 Move demo imo, instead of holding a glowing dildo to aim a gun.

The Track IR system for the PC is where Kinect will shine in the hardcore gaming market or where is should shine on the 360.

hightower1

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

What are ye on about?!

Move is identical to the wii in all the ways that matter...

Its literally a copy of the wii and nun chuck (all be it a little more homosexual with the colourdey balls "yyyyaaaayyyy") ...

Kinect takes the Wii concept and advances it with removal of the hand held devices.

Here's some definitions to clear it up....


cop·y (kp)
n. pl. cop·ies
1. An imitation or reproduction of an original; a duplicate


ev·o·lu·tion (v-lshn, v-)
n.
1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

If thats too difficult here are some pictures to help, see if find the idea thats NOT copying the rest!!!

WolfForager

Sounds fantastic!

Move is 1:1 and moves in 3d space, unlike the Wii which only moves on the horizontal and vertical, now that is evolution.

Natal does everything the Eye did/does and improves on it, evolution again.

Wowzers.

Gunmonkey

Yeah, I almost have a brain haemorage everytime MS say how the Kinect "removes the controler" for another BS mini-game compilation thats bears a very VERY striking resemblance to Wii games from 4 years ago.

Wheres the RTS games using gesture controls??

Or the PROPER game with integration between Kinect and a normal controller??

Or anything that will convince me to buy a Kinect?? Or am I just not the target demographic, instead its aimed at families and people who havent picked up a controller before.........

FFS Microsoft, stop trying to chase the Wii-dollars. The people who bought a Wii for family friendly games arent gonna drop a good €300 - €400 on another console for the same experience they already get on their Wii.

WolfForager

Sounds fantastic!

http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/14318622/playstation-motion-controller-e3-demo-series/videos/e10_psmove_spc_tech_061310.html?show=hi

Watch that Move tech demo, if you say that that isn't evolutionary in comparison to the wii ad natal is to the eye then i don't think i'll ever be able to take you seriously.

NotorietyH

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Yeah, I almost have a brain haemorage everytime MS say how the Kinect "removes the controler" for another BS mini-game compilation thats bears a very VERY striking resemblance to Wii games from 4 years ago.

Hell it bears a striking resemblance to PS Eye games released on the PS2, never mind the Wii.

hightower1

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

WolfForager wrote: »

http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/14318622/playstation-motion-controller-e3-demo-series/videos/e10_psmove_spc_tech_061310.html?show=hi

Watch that Move tech demo, if you say that that isn't evolutionary in comparison to the wii ad natal is to the eye then i don't think i'll ever be able to take you seriously.

I've seen the tech demo's already and IMO the move is simply a fancy wii emulator.
Its like taking a product, tweaking and enhancing slightly and calling it something new? The iPhone 4 has more features than an iPhone gen1 but yet essentially its the same thing.

Kinect is the concept of the wii advanced further and evolved, they took the concept and took it a step further, move took the concept and inched it further.




Put it this way.... describe Kinect to a casual gamer.... now try and describe move. Which one do you think they are going to say....."Isnt that jut Wii?" to?





Not that I am absolutely blown away with Kinect, I think they are still trying to take the Wii route for the most part and as a hardcore gamer I reject that from the brand.... BUT... I do understand MS are a company here to make money and undoubtedly the Wii is doing that. If it means we have to put up with MS putting out these cringe worthy shovel ware titles to fund the device and establish it then I will grin and bear it because to me Kinect represents massive possibilities for core games. The more money it makes and the more established it is the more possibilities open for the tech.

NotorietyH

hightower1 wrote: »

I've seen the tech demo's already and IMO the move is simply a fancy wii emulator.
Its like taking a product, tweaking and enhancing slightly

That is evolution. Copying would be if it was exactly the same. It's not.

Natal is something different to Wii, it's not an evolution, it's controller-free gaming for better or for worse. Worse in my opinion.

As I said in the E3 thread. I don't want controller free gaming until I can control games with my mind :P

hightower1

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

NotorietyH wrote: »

That is evolution. Copying would be if it was exactly the same. It's not.

Natal is something different to Wii, it's not an evolution, it's controller-free gaming for better or for worse. Worse in my opinion.

As I said in the E3 thread. I don't want controller free gaming until I can control games with my mind :P

Uuuurrrggghhhhh......

OK.... HERE....WE .....GO ..... AGAIN......


Wii = game controll using a two handed wireless motion sensetive device.

Move = game controll using a two handed wireless motion sensetive device.

Kinect = Game controll using your body and voice as a motion sensetive device.


See, two of those are identical, one however is not, it IS however the basic concept of the others (i.e game controll using motion and other non standard inputs) so if an idea takes an already existing concept.... builds on this with new twists on the original its ......EVOLUTION.

Eg homosapians taking primate ideas of ground shuffeling and modefying that to walking.... same basic idea (movement) but with its own twist.

gizmo

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

The indignant rage from some people regarding the launch titles is nothing short of hilarious. Do people forget it takes a couple of years to develop a AAA game for the console? Do people also forget that this hardware hasn't been in the hands of developers for more than a year? Seriously, take a deep breath and think about it. The technology does show promise however it'll take awhile for some developers to get the hang of it and we see some quality implementations for it, be it software designed specifically for the device or at least additions to normal games which take clever advantage of it.

As for the Move vs. Kinect argument which seems to be brewing, the two sets of motion controls are completely different and so comparing them directly is a bit silly. Regarding what I and indeed others have said before, however, is that while Kinect allows you to do something different which can be used in conjunction with a controller, Move is an actual replacement for the controller, something that I personally ain't too fond of.

NotorietyH

hightower1 wrote: »

Uuuurrrggghhhhh......

OK.... HERE....WE .....GO ..... AGAIN......

NO maybe you should list the ways that Move is different to the Wii motion controller rather than just giving a vague, general description of the product. WolfForager has already listed the ways that Move improves and enhances on the Wii tech with 3D tracking etc. Evolution is gradual improvement over time through a series of small steps, which is exactly what Move is to the Wii. If you can't see how that's an evolution of a product than there's no point even debating it. By your methods of definition the Model T Ford is the exact same a Ferrari Enzo, both are four wheeled motorized vehicles controlled by a steering wheel.

AS many including myself have said, Natal is closer to the evolution of the PS Eye and similar devices than the Wii. Yet it is still an evolution of the principles of motion controlled gaming that Wii pioneered. There's no reason bot Kinect and Move can't both be evolutions, any argument otherwise just reeks of petty fanboyism.

Something you also failed to show in your pictures showing that the Move was a duplicate of the Wii is the fact that you can utilise both main controllers for Move, eg in that demo where one controller was the characters sword and the other his shield, will full 3D stracking of each, even if it was placed behind his back. Something not possible on the Wii. Which implies a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex, better form.

Now where have I heard that before but said in a patronising way? Oh yeah...

hightower1 wrote: »

ev·o·lu·tion (v-lshn, v-)
n.
1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

Move adds the camera to the controller for better tracking etc. Kinect removes the controller and puts a camera in its place.

NotorietyH

gizmo wrote: »

Regarding what I and indeed others have said before, however, is that while Kinect allows you to do something different which can be used in conjunction with a controller, Move is an actual replacement for the controller, something that I personally ain't too fond of.

From articles and stuff I've read it seems that Kinect support takes up a prohibitively large amount of the 360s processing power, so the idea of being able to implement it as a supplement to the regular controls in games like Call of Duty etc. may not be possible, as most games these days max out the hardware as is. It's why for example in the Forza demo that you couldn't play a regular race with Kinect, just a mini-game like race where you had to overtake much less powerful cars as smoothly as you can.

It seems to me that Kinect will really only support games made speficially for it or be used to a very small degree in some Microsoft exclusives. I thought it was very telling that they didn't show Kinect working with Fable III as Molyneux had said that Fable III would support Kinect, but now there's no mention of it, and with Fable III going to the PC too, it seems that any Kinect support will be negligible.

EDIT: Sorry for double post, didn't want this entangled with the ranting above!

rizzla

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

NotorietyH wrote: »

Something you also failed to show in your pictures showing that the Move was a duplicate of the Wii is the fact that you can utilise both main controllers for Move, eg in that demo where one controller was the characters sword and the other his shield, will full 3D stracking of each, even if it was placed behind his back. Something not possible on the Wii. Which implies a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex, better form.

Actually it can't, not for any long period of time anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH3JLbFa_Bs&feature=related

Check out 1:20. Although that was probably an early demo.

NotorietyH

rizzla wrote: »

Actually it can't, not for any long period of time anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH3JLbFa_Bs&feature=related

Check out 1:20. Although that was probably an early demo.

I've seen it being done since on other tech demos. I think it was on that Engadget special of it.

rizzla

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

NotorietyH wrote: »

I've seen it being done since on other tech demos. I think it was on that Engadget special of it.

That vid is the engadget special. Unless they did another one I haven't watched yet.

Once the ball on the top is covered the camera looses it's place in the environment and can only sense the motion of it.

NotorietyH

rizzla wrote: »

That vid is the engadget special. Unless they did another one I haven't watched yet.

Once the ball on the top is covered the camera looses it's place in the environment and can only sense the motion of it.

Ah right lol, fair enough, yeah maybe long periods it can't track it, but you could swing it around behind your back without it losing it, which is more than the Wii can do still. So I stand by my point, only a few steps to the left and I'll act like I don't know it if anyone asks. That engadget video does show a lot of the ways it improves on the Wii technology though too in terms of tracking movement in 3D space and all that.

Vyse

Sounds fantastic!

NotorietyH wrote: »

From articles and stuff I've read it seems that Kinect support takes up a prohibitively large amount of the 360s processing power

Not according to this:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-kinect-tech-analysis?page=2

rizzla

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

NotorietyH wrote: »

Ah right lol, fair enough, yeah maybe long periods it can't track it, but you could swing it around behind your back without it losing it, which is more than the Wii can do still. So I stand by my point, only a few steps to the left and I'll act like I don't know it if anyone asks. That engadget video does show a lot of the ways it improves on the Wii technology though too in terms of tracking movement in 3D space and all that.

I don't know. The Wii could do it, it's just ninty never bothered to research it. Basically the Move is just the Wii reversed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

The guy who invented that was snapped up by MS to work on Kinect.

NotorietyH

Vyse wrote: »

Not according to this:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-kinect-tech-analysis?page=2

That's pretty interesting, I'm just surprised they haven't made an effort to implement it better it to regular games a show that off yet. The Forza 3 demo just seemed like another tech demo to me. I've yet to see anything with the Kinect that makes me think that it'll be anything more than basically a Wii plug-in for your 360. If it's over €100 I'll just buy a Wii instead.

At least with the Move they've tried to show a broad range of applications, with SOCOM looking particularily impressive and if you don't like the Move just play it with your regular controller.

I'm not sure if I'll buy the Move either, it depends on software again. So far though out of every game shown for both products, SOCOM is the only one that interests me. Though that Child of Eden game at the Ubisoft conference last night looked good, but good in a 'good for ten minutes until novelty wears off' kind of way.

cheeseofdoom

EGriff wrote: »

Can't see how a lightsaber or any kind of sword fight would work since there's no resistance. As in you swing your arms, the guys on screen swings but gets blocked and then you're gone totally out of sync because you followed through.

Just like in red steel. (Which was rubbish(though I haven't played the second 1))

It actually measures velocity and force, not just where you are in space.

gizmo

The minority report menus are it's best/only feature.

NotorietyH wrote: »

From articles and stuff I've read it seems that Kinect support takes up a prohibitively large amount of the 360s processing power, so the idea of being able to implement it as a supplement to the regular controls in games like Call of Duty etc. may not be possible, as most games these days max out the hardware as is. It's why for example in the Forza demo that you couldn't play a regular race with Kinect, just a mini-game like race where you had to overtake much less powerful cars as smoothly as you can.

I can only assume they are older or outdated articles as from all reports the CPU utilisation is far lower than the one-core initially mooted. From the Digital Foundry article:

Probably the best source we have on the actual additional load that Kinect incurs on the Xenon CPU comes from the Wired magazine article on the then-Project Natal run a few months back. In that story, Xbox's technological frontiersman Alex Kipman pegged the load at 10 to 15 per cent depending on the tasks being asked of the various libraries.

So one would assume that's the RGB data from the camera, plus the depth map and some voice processing on top of it. Not too shabby at all actually and, with clever implementation, shouldn't be noticeable during play.

As for the Forza demo, I'd disagree on that one and say it's more of a time restriction on the developers part than anything else. Their demo showed the full game running at 720p60 with plenty of cars visible. The only thing that was really absent any sort of real AI on show but as I said, I'd imagine that was more tailor made for the demo rather than any technical restriction.

NotorietyH wrote: »

It seems to me that Kinect will really only support games made speficially for it or be used to a very small degree in some Microsoft exclusives. I thought it was very telling that they didn't show Kinect working with Fable III as Molyneux had said that Fable III would support Kinect, but now there's no mention of it, and with Fable III going to the PC too, it seems that any Kinect support will be negligible.

To be honest I'd consider that more classic Molyneux than anything else. It wouldn't be a Lionhead reveal if it didn't have some empty promises.