Kenny sacks Bruton

i57dwun4yb1pt8

oh my god !
they didnt kill kenny
YOU BA@STARDS !

Breezer

snow ghost wrote: »

Fair point Breezer, perhaps it was the manner in which Bruton did this and his timing - he comes across very badly in my eyes for that.

To do this - and to his own leader and party - when a vote of no confidence was happening against Cowen, is just beyond belief, and for that reason I would not trust him to lead a government now. As he clearly has little cop on.

I accept what you're saying, but at the same time I think we have to realise:

1) This no confidence vote is not going to succeed, just like every other one that's been put down in the lifetime of this Dáil.

2) Bruton's hand was forced, in my opinion. You had a particularly disastrous poll result for FG, on the back of a series of very mediocre ones at a time when the party should be riding high. You had the media questioning Kenny's ability to lead (as usual, admittedly). Bruton is an honest man. He's been unwaveringly loyal to Kenny for years, but when he was asked on live television whether or not he could still support Kenny, he couldn't honestly answer yes. He didn't say no, but obviously the media, and then Kenny himself, latched on to this. Yes, Bruton was privately sounding out support, but nothing would necessarily have happened before tomorrow. However, today Kenny, not Bruton, created this fiasco by sacking him.

IMO it would have been better to leave the entire leadership question until after the vote of no confidence tomorrow, which was what was intended to happen and the reason the FG front bench meeting was put back to tomorrow afternoon. Kenny, however, forced this situation by sacking Bruton. At that point, the focus was off FF and Cowen regardless of how Bruton responded, so he set the ball rolling regarding the leadership challenge.

RonMexico

snow ghost wrote: »

RonMexico,

I can assure you that I have never voted for Fine Gael in my life, and have no reason to say otherwise.

My main political concern at the moment would be ousting the corrupt regime in government. In that respect, I am disgusted with Bruton for doing this and doing it when a there was a vote of no confidence against Cowen. What the hell was he thinking?

As someone with no allegiance to any Fine Gael representative, I can only say that is how I now perceive Bruton - as a backstabbing traitor.

As someone who would have considered voting for Fine Gael under Kenny, I would never vote for them under Bruton following his actions.

Well I am the opposite. I have never voted Fine Gael but there was no way I was going to vote FF or labour in the next election. That left FG but with Enda Kenny in charge I wouldn't dare, leaving only independents. I am but one of many. I would gladly vote for FG led by Bruton in the morning however. Enda forced his hand after yet another damning poll. Bruton didn't orchestrate this, the public perception of Kenny forced this to a head.

sesna

Breezer wrote: »

IMO it would have been better to leave the entire leadership question until after the vote of no confidence tomorrow, which was what was intended to happen and the reason the FG front bench meeting was put back to tomorrow afternoon. Kenny, however, forced this situation by sacking Bruton. /QUOTE]

The confidence motion is going to be a farce as it is, thanks to Brutons awful timing. It would have been worse if Kenny had Bruton sitting beside him, while placing a leadship confidence motion in Cowen. He had no choice but to sack Bruton, who has been planning this since last February.

Breezer

sesna wrote: »

The confidence motion is going to be a farce as it is, thanks to Brutons awful timing. It would have been worse if Kenny had Bruton sitting beside him, while placing a leadship confidence motion in Cowen. He had no choice but to sack Bruton, who has been planning this since last February.

Not with everything out in the public arena, no. But the two have been colleagues and friends for 25 years, according to the pair of them. I see no reason why the matter could not have been kept private, within the party, for a further 24 hours.

I don't hold Kenny alone responsible for the situation. Reilly, Varadkar, Fitzgerald etc. should not have been talking to the media about leadership challenges before the confidence motion. Bruton attempted to avoid doing so: OK, it was blatantly obvious but still speculation until people started talking about phone calls being made etc.

I say this as someone who has consistently defended Kenny in the past: this is a nightmare situation, but what's done is done. The parliamentary party can now choose to have either Kenny or Bruton on the front bench (never mind the leadership), directing policy. I believe that Kenny has been a good chairman of the party, but without a strong financial voice, and with support already haemorrhaging to Labour over a series of opinion polls, if I had to choose one I know who it would be. It would seem like most of the front bench, and to be honest, most of the electorate, agree with me.

Foxtrol

Breezer wrote: »

Not with everything out in the public arena, no. But the two have been colleagues and friends for 25 years, according to the pair of them. I see no reason why the matter could not have been kept private, within the party, for a further 24 hours.

I don't hold Kenny alone responsible for the situation. Reilly, Varadkar, Fitzgerald etc. should not have been talking to the media about leadership challenges before the confidence motion. Bruton attempted to avoid doing so: OK, it was blatantly obvious but still speculation until people started talking about phone calls being made etc.

Politically I really dont see the logic in Kenny sacking Bruton unless he a) thinks he already has the support of the vast majority of the front bench or b) thinks he can influence them into supporting him if Bruton isnt there.
Its a massive gamble but if it does work Bruton will be end up being a back bench judas figure.

However, I agree that Kenny's made the wrong move by making it public as now anything other than resounding support leaves him out of any sort of power role in FG.

Breezer

Foxtrol wrote: »

However, I agree that Kenny's made the wrong move by making it public as now anything other than resounding support leaves him out of any sort of power role in FG.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. He is still well-liked within Fine Gael (and apparently all over the country as of this evening :rolleyes:) If Bruton wins, I can see Kenny retaining a senior position. It would acknowledge his ability and the fantastic work he has done within the party, while also helping to smooth over the split in the party that has now come to the fore. If egos have been too bruised this won't happen, but there doesn't seem to be any personal animosity between Bruton and Kenny. Both seem genuinely disappointed that it has come to this, and seem to simply be doing what they feel it their duty to do.

However if Kenny wins, I can't see how Bruton can come back to the front bench.

Foxtrol

Breezer wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily say that. He is still well-liked within Fine Gael (and apparently all over the country as of this evening :rolleyes:) If Bruton wins, I can see Kenny retaining a senior position. It would acknowledge his ability and the fantastic work he has done within the party, while also helping to smooth over the split in the party that has now come to the fore. If egos have been too bruised this won't happen, but there doesn't seem to be any personal animosity between Bruton and Kenny. Both seem genuinely disappointed that it has come to this, and seem to simply be doing what they feel it their duty to do.

However if Kenny wins, I can't see how Bruton can come back to the front bench.

I think it all depends on how the next 24 hours go. I cant see Kenny being on the front bench in the near future if he tries to limp on after barely surviving his confidence motion and in the process causes multiple resignations before eventually resigning himself a few weeks/months down the line.

If he had kept things behind closed doors it would have been much easier for a deal to be made. At this stage with a defeat I think after saying a few words about uniting the party he would then need to take a step back from the publicity of a front bench role until the run up or post general election.

alank1234

sesna wrote: »

Breezer wrote: »

IMO it would have been better to leave the entire leadership question until after the vote of no confidence tomorrow, which was what was intended to happen and the reason the FG front bench meeting was put back to tomorrow afternoon. Kenny, however, forced this situation by sacking Bruton. /QUOTE]

The confidence motion is going to be a farce as it is, thanks to Brutons awful timing. It would have been worse if Kenny had Bruton sitting beside him, while placing a leadship confidence motion in Cowen. He had no choice but to sack Bruton, who has been planning this since last February.

Hi
stay with me for a mo - WHY NOW - why did Bruton choose this moment - when all of the attention should be on FF ?? Madness - NO -

Conspiracy theorists will love this - - - - - - -

suppose for a mo that Bruton has a pact with the greens - he will team with them in the next election (poss as well as Lab) in return for the greens NOT voting with the govt tomorrow (tues) - the govt falls and the decision on Thursday for FG is now - who do you want to lead you into the forthcoming general election - Kenny or Bruton! That goes in Brutons favour I reckon - the greens get to shore up their position and get into the next govt - FG get the new leader - and lets face it - Kenny has NEVER been popular - and we end up with a unity or peoples govt as it will be called Im sure

---

Don't get me wrong - not saying i like it - or even believe it - but comments welcome - otherwise - WHY NOW - I know 1 thing - its no accident!!!!!!

Alan K - Laois

Breezer

alank1234 wrote: »

Hi
stay with me for a mo - WHY NOW - why did Bruton choose this moment - when all of the attention should be on FF ?? Madness - NO -

Why now? A chain of events: Bruton reacted to a long series of relatively poor polls. The media (beginning with Miriam O'Callaghan, who knew fine well what she was doing) went into a frenzy over one very dramatic poll. A few key FG figures stupidly took the bait and started talking. Kenny had a moment of panic and hit the nuclear button. The media reacted to this, taking all focus off FF. Bruton threw his hat in the ring, knowing it was now or never.

Conspiracy theorists will love this - - - - - - - suppose for a mo that Bruton has a pact with the greens - he will team with them in the next election (poss as well as Lab) in return for the greens NOT voting with the govt tomorrow (tues)

I guess I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Why would Bruton, or anyone else, team with the Greens? They're finished. Gilmore isn't going to be teaming with anyone before an election, he wants to be Taoiseach (and quite possibly will be. Remember what happened when the media told us Joe Higgins could seriously become an MEP?)

alank1234

breezer

in essence i agree!!!

the poll is a significant factor - and not the 1st that said

the prob was/is kenny - hes not good - and his recent ££££SHOUT AT THEM££££££££ mode has not helped!!!!!!!

but i still have timing issues with bruton - think hes better BUT why now ????? most disavantegous time for FG - UNLESS there is a bigger plan and he knows the govt will fall -

I appreciate it is unusual - BUT WE LIVE IN EXCEPTIONAL TIMES!!!!!!!

Gosh Cry baby Dr Reilly is on the radio now supporting kenny.
<cringe>

What I find shocking and disturbing was what Fionnan Sheehan exposed on last nights VB on tv3.

Last week in an interview on RTE's news at one,Kenny had a minder sitting beside him prompting him with answers to the questions ...and lol whats worse the minder could be heard and when he was finished prompting the answers, kenny could be heard parroting out what the minder said..

That speaks volumes for the people on the radio this morning supporting kenny.
They are backing the wrong horse,they haven't a clue,they are supporting a buffoon.

Do we seriously want someone who at the stage of being the longest serving t.d in the Dáil clearly is as thick as that???

Banned Account

I think Kenny has made a horses ass of the situation and for all his mumbling about party loyalty - he has really fecked the party on this one.

He should have had the conversations needed behind closed doors and come to an amicable arrangement. As it is, FG without Bruton will not be an attractive option for many of the swing voters flirting with FG. Anyone with an ounce of sense would have known this - terrible move and really shows up the weaknesses of his leadership.

He will be gone by Thursday, the issue will be blown over in a fortnight and he'll be left licking his wounds - the man has made a serious error of judgement.

Fitzcaraldo

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

I think Kenny has made a horses ass of the situation and for all his mumbling about party loyalty - he has really fecked the party on this one.

He should have had the conversations needed behind closed doors and come to an amicable arrangement. As it is, FG without Bruton will not be an attractive option for many of the swing voters flirting with FG. Anyone with an ounce of sense would have known this - terrible move and really shows up the weaknesses of his leadership.

He will be gone by Thursday, the issue will be blown over in a fortnight and he'll be left licking his wounds - the man has made a serious error of judgement.

Clearly he forgot to consult his minders yesterday or perhaps their phones were out of coverage or may have been switched off...

gandalf

Black Briar wasn't Dr Reilly brought into FG by Enda. I assume he is defending him out of loyalty. I wouldn't condemn him because of that.

The interesting thing is now we have this push against Kenny yet we have another leader of a party with an even lower satisfaction rating whose party have even less support. How long are they going to last because if they lead that party into the next election they will be decimated.

Seems to me that all the FF TD's are like a pack of bunnies paralysed by the headlights of an onrushing General Election.

Banned Account

It's an exercise of rectum protectum for them at the moment. Close ranks, delay the bye-elections and hang in there for as long as possible. If they can salvage anything positive by the end of their term they will jettison Cowen and lead a re-vamped party into the election. They will get a bruising but I don't think it will be as bad as the recent poll suggests - they will play the "we turned the corner and made the hard decisions in your interests" card.

Of course it will be a sad attempt to gloss over a diseterous term at the helm but time heals all wounds.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

...

What I find shocking and disturbing was what Fionnan Sheehan exposed on last nights VB on tv3.

Last week in an interview on RTE's news at one,Kenny had a minder sitting beside him prompting him with answers to the questions ...and lol whats worse the minder could be heard and when he was finished prompting the answers, kenny could be heard parroting out what the minder said..
...

This would be same fionnan sheehan whose wife was 90 grand a year advisor to mary hannafin and then stood as council candidate for ff in North County Dublin ?
The same missus who was big in ogra ff and TCD students union ?

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

I think Kenny has made a horses ass of the situation and for all his mumbling about party loyalty - he has really fecked the party on this one.

He should have had the conversations needed behind closed doors and come to an amicable arrangement. As it is, FG without Bruton will not be an attractive option for many of the swing voters flirting with FG. Anyone with an ounce of sense would have known this - terrible move and really shows up the weaknesses of his leadership.

He will be gone by Thursday, the issue will be blown over in a fortnight and he'll be left licking his wounds - the man has made a serious error of judgement.

And you think Bruton's judgement was good.
Just like in comedy timing is everything and his timing was absolutely pathetic.
The only ones this benefits are the encumbents who get a free ride even though expert opinion finally laid the blame for the economic mess at their door.
And that doesn't even bring in yet another terrible HSE scandal that was unearthed last week.

Bruton could have waited until after today.
It wouldn't have deflected pressure off ff and greens.
He could still have said it was as a result of last week's opinion poll and how the leader had not being able to dislodge cowen.

Of course there are those that said that today was a formality, but at least it would have put some pressure on the government.
It would have put the spotlight on backbenchers, greens and independents and make them squirm a little.
Instead we have zero pressure on them and they get to sail in today and once again support the man that got to a point where we are going to be 100s of billions in debt.
Now nobody cares because they are all caught up in who leads the opposition rather than who is continuing to lead this country down a costly cull de sac.


Even if Kenny wins he is now totally wounded.
If Burton wins he is wounded and will not survive for long.
If he wins does he fire people like the high profile O'Reilly ?
That would be another big loss to their front bench.

Already people and the media are finding that the smart economic brain is not quiet cutting it in interviews.

So will be the next leader of FG ?
Perhaps Coveney who is not going to bring anything to the party ?
Perhaps Varadker but that would make one side of the party very uncomfortable ?
I can see someone like Hayes or O'Dowd eventually becoming leader and I mean before an election in 2012.

The only winners out of this fiasco is ff and Labour.
What are the odds these two will form the next government ?

IMHO neither of which are really going to tackle the public service.
Hell their slogan can be tax tax and waste waste.

blackiebest

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

It's an exercise of rectum protectum for them at the moment. Close ranks, delay the bye-elections and hang in there for as long as possible. If they can salvage anything positive by the end of their term they will jettison Cowen and lead a re-vamped party into the election. They will get a bruising but I don't think it will be as bad as the recent poll suggests - they will play the "we turned the corner and made the hard decisions in your interests" card.

Of course it will be a sad attempt to gloss over a diseterous term at the helm but time heals all wounds.

Clench all you want,

I'm still going in!

Banned Account

Look Jmayo,

There is more to the world than FF - not everything in the country is instigated by tem, dome for the benefit of them or should be aimed at unsettling them - let it go.

The fact of the matter is that calling a motion of no-confidence in Cowen today was a silly thing to do - there is not a hope in hell that it will be passed, look at the numbers involved. All that will happen is that it will allow FF more air time to point out the "tough measures they have taken for the love of the country" and then bar another motion from being proposed for another six months. So why you persist with this line of argument is beyond me.

Secondly, the timing issue really doesn't matter - No one heard Bruton come out and make any statement on the issue until after Kenny decided to sack him - this was a stupid move for the reasoned you have outlined above. This was a conversation that could have been held behind closed doors - all the rumours would have remained just that.

The fact is that Kenny pushed the issue into the public domain by sacking Bruton unnecessarily - this is the sort of poor judgement and rash action that produced criticism of Kenny in relation to the proposed abolition of the Seanad. I'm glad the issue has been forced, I think that FG under Bruton (as it will be after Thursday) will be a stronger contender in the next election by which time all of this will have been forgitten about.

As for FF and Labour forming a co-alition? - I think you must have been to the headshop.

Liam Byrne

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Look Jmayo,

There is more to the world than FF - not everything in the country is instigated by tem, dome for the benefit of them or should be aimed at unsettling them - let it go.

All that will happen is that it will allow FF more air time to point out the "tough measures they have taken for the love of the country" and then bar another motion from being proposed for another six months. So why you persist with this line of argument is beyond me.

So we should just give up and let FF trot out that lie, then ?

91011

As a floating voter - recent times FF, prior FG (dukes / Fitzgerald era) and current I'd have to go Labour as they seem to have the depth in the party.

But on Kenny / Bruton this is what I hear. (from yesterdays interviews)

Kenny - mumble mumble Fine Gael, mumble mumble the Party, mumble mumble Me, mumble mumble my collegaues, mumble mumble fine gael, me, the party.

Bruton - blah blah Ireland, blah blah, this country, blah blah us, blah blah Ireland, Blah blah this nation, blah blah, jobs, Ireland, nation , us.


So as a voting voter, I would never vote for someone that seems to put his party above the job, so no chance of ever voting for Kenny.

If Bruton did get in and allowed the front bench to "advertise " themselves and what they would do for the country instead of the current FG mantra of simply knocking everything FF does, then I could be back voting for them.

jmayo

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Look Jmayo,

There is more to the world than FF - not everything in the country is instigated by tem, dome for the benefit of them or should be aimed at unsettling them - let it go.

The fact of the matter is that calling a motion of no-confidence in Cowen today was a silly thing to do - there is not a hope in hell that it will be passed, look at the numbers involved. All that will happen is that it will allow FF more air time to point out the "tough measures they have taken for the love of the country" and then bar another motion from being proposed for another six months. So why you persist with this line of argument is beyond me.

Secondly, the timing issue really doesn't matter - No one heard Bruton come out and make any statement on the issue until after Kenny decided to sack him - this was a stupid move for the reasoned you have outlined above. This was a conversation that could have been held behind closed doors - all the rumours would have remained just that.

The fact is that Kenny pushed the issue into the public domain by sacking Bruton unnecessarily - this is the sort of poor judgement and rash action that produced criticism of Kenny in relation to the proposed abolition of the Seanad. I'm glad the issue has been forced, I think that FG under Bruton (as it will be after Thursday) will be a stronger contender in the next election by which time all of this will have been forgitten about.

As for FF and Labour forming a co-alition? - I think you must have been to the headshop.

How the Christ could Kenny walk into the Dáil today and table a motion of no confidence in cowen all the while having Bruton sitting beside him after he had affectively shown he had no confidence in Kenny.
??

It is you who has been to the headshop if you think this came to a head because Kenny sacked him ?
Bruton put down the challenge last week when he refused to say he backed Kenny not after he was fired.
Yes FG have aired the dirty linen in public and they are both to blame for that, but Bruton set the ball rolling.
Thus I find his timing atrocious.
Thus by implication I call into question his judgement.
Bruton is already being targetted in the media and soon all will find out that he is not the great white hope.
Also the party has now been split and I reckon they have to find another leader.

He now gives the appearance that him taking over FG is more important than getting rid of the most inept taoiseach and minister of finance this country has ever had the misfortune of having.

Yes cowen would probably have survived, but just look at the reaction of eamon "sanctimonious" ryan last week when he was wheeled out to back cowen.
Backbenchers would have been put under some pressure and harney would have once again being under pressure over the ultrasound issue.
BTW that is an unbelievable revelation, but of course it has now been consigned to the scrapheap sadly much like some healthy babies possibly may have been.

BTW a lot of the media are ff linked and if you chose to watch RTE you would definetly see this.

scr123

After watching Bruton on tv so much yesterday have to say I was very impressed. He is a bigger asset to FF than even Kenny !

This whole debacle has been humbling to all the FG supporters on internet message boards. Thread after thread is set up slamming FF week after week and the same party come along and make total and utter fools of themselves

I might be staunch FF but for goodness sake it is wrong to have one party dominate government for so long and so often. Have no time whatsoever for the type of people who vote FG but its time that party got its act together and showed responsible behaviour that will benefit the country.

Deadly serious when I say the extreme left and right in this country must put the country first and drop their lunatic ideologies

Banned Account

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So we should just give up and let FF trot out that lie, then ?

If you know and I know and we all know that it is a lie does it matter?

jmayo wrote: »

How the Christ could Kenny walk into the Dáil today and table a motion of no confidence in cowen all the while having Bruton sitting beside him after he had affectively shown he had no confidence in Kenny.
??

It is you who has been to the headshop if you think this came to a head because Kenny sacked him ?
Bruton put down the challenge last week when he refused to say he backed Kenny not after he was fired.
Yes FG have aired the dirty linen in public and they are both to blame for that, but Bruton set the ball rolling.
Thus I find his timing atrocious.
Thus by implication I call into question his judgement.
Bruton is already being targetted in the media and soon all will find out that he is not the great white hope.
Also the party has now been split and I reckon they have to find another leader.

You were the one that brought up the issue of timing. If Kenny had a word with Bruton behind closed doors and said "let's do this after today, we'll use today to screw FF further and then we'll rumble on wednesday" - don't forget that no statements were made until after the sacking - as I said above, up to this point it was all rumour. Kenny's move made it concrete.

jmayo wrote: »

He now gives the appearance that him taking over FG is more important than getting rid of the most inept taoiseach and minister of finance this country has ever had the misfortune of having.

Cowne is a lame duck - the dog's in the street know it - so I believe that the future leadership of the country does merit a little consideration.

jmayo wrote: »

Yes cowen would probably have survived, but just look at the reaction of eamon "sanctimonious" ryan last week when he was wheeled out to back cowen.
Backbenchers would have been put under some pressure and harney would have once again being under pressure over the ultrasound issue.
BTW that is an unbelievable revelation, but of course it has now been consigned to the scrapheap sadly much like some healthy babies possibly may have been.

Nothing like an auld dead baby comment to stir the emotions huh:rolleyes:

As mentioned above, the motion was ill timed and pointless, and how you think Mary Harney would have been discussed at a motion regarding confidence in Cowen is beyond me.

jmayo wrote: »

BTW a lot of the media are ff linked and if you chose to watch RTE you would definetly see this.

The problem with attempting to debate you is that you are so blinkered that you see everything except "kill FF" as a pro-FF statement. Your posts swing eratically from Harney to dead babies to Brian cowen to RTE without any semblance of reasonable structure.

Can you not just stand back, analyse the content of the posts (and not the emotion which you seem to attach to them) and answer the points raised. If Kenny's supporters are of this mindset, there is no doubt but that Bruton made the correct decision.

gandalf

jmayo but wasn't it the poll reflection last week that brought this to a head. TBH this push should have happened around the time of the GLee incident it is FG's own fault they let this fester away in the background and of course the media were going to pick away at it. As for Bruton if he becomes leader being damaged already that is up to the party itself to decide. Either they want to govern or they want to bicker among themselves. I suggest they grow up and ensure that FF get the almighty walloping that they deserve and with the Enda factor gone that will be a real possibility.

I do find it interesting that the media are not concentrating on a leader who has a lower satisfaction rating then Enda, who has under his tenure got the lowest support rating for FF ever in a poll at 17% (remember their core rating was said to be around 22-25%). We already know that there are descenting voices in FF yet the media seem to shy away from this. I understand to a degree why RTE do, they are scared they will be "punished" so they hide in the corner making muted noises every now and then at the Government but what's the story with the print media are they compromised so much by FF that they are no longer able to go after this government?

Also what about the Greens, the Greens of the past would have been jumping up and down and screaming blue murder if they had anything close to the ammunition provided in the two reports last week. Now we get Eamon Ryan trotted out like a Summer Christmas Decoration to brighten up the press conference of shame last week. He must have felt like a right plank.

Finally I do feel sorry for Enda Kenny he has resurrected FG from a decline that could have ended the party but if he has any notion of political sense he should stand aside now before the vote on Thursday.

pitkan

A few of our better known media reporters have on occasion wondered why we are not out on the streets a la Greece style and I think it is because as bad as the shower of pocketliners in power at the moment are, there is no alternative considering the limp Kenny and Gilmore. The Opposition have all the credibility of an English World Cup goal keeper under their present leaders.Fine Gael will pay a heavy price if Kenny is not removed and I don`t think Bruton carries enough conviction to succeed . Of course the Greens are history and Labour will not be forgotten for their part in the `dirty dozen` as it is remembered when they cosied up to the present shower of incompetents in government. So, where does that leave us? What we need now is a new party of younger, less grey people who have a vision for openness in all aspects of Government. Gone should be the nod and wink cute hoorism,the brown envelopes, the brass necks and all the other theatricals that have brought us to our knees. It`s time for change, indeed it`s long past time for change.

yahoo_moe

gandalf wrote: »

if he has any notion of political sense he should stand aside now before the vote on Thursday.

Possibly... but pride and pique can make a big difference.

I don't think Bruton's exactly shown much "notion of political sense" in this either. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that opinion polls have a very generous margin for error because of their methodologies, plus they don't always reflect genuine voting intentions for other reasons*, so Bruton's pretext (whatever else has gone on) seems flimsy and selfish.

* Nick Clegg for prime minister in a Lib Dem government, anyone?

Foxtrol

gandalf wrote: »

I do find it interesting that the media are not concentrating on a leader who has a lower satisfaction rating then Enda, who has under his tenure got the lowest support rating for FF ever in a poll at 17% (remember their core rating was said to be around 22-25%). We already know that there are descenting voices in FF yet the media seem to shy away from this. I understand to a degree why RTE do, they are scared they will be "punished" so they hide in the corner making muted noises every now and then at the Government but what's the story with the print media are they compromised so much by FF that they are no longer able to go after this government?

The media are covering the FG leadership issues because its a more interesting story than FF. The media have been blasting the government for the last 2 years to the point were people dont pay any attention to it anymore. This is an interesting story because its the fight to see who will be the next leader of the country (I cant see FF or Labour coming close). It has nothing to do with bias or fear of punishment.

gandalf

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Possibly... but pride and pique can make a big difference.

I don't think Bruton's exactly shown much "notion of political sense" in this either. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that opinion polls have a very generous margin for error because of their methodologies, plus they don't always reflect genuine voting intentions for other reasons*, so Bruton's pretext (whatever else has gone on) seems flimsy and selfish.

* Nick Clegg for prime minister in a Lib Dem government, anyone?

I take your point and if this poll was a one off I would agree, but consistent ones are showing FF in terminal decline and FG are not picking up the numbers from this decline. This may be civil war politics still in play and people supporting SF and Labour because of that but in reality FG are the closest party to FF policy wise and you would have expected them to pick up some numbers from the FF support haemorrhage. It also obvious from quite a number of polls that it is the perception of the leader of FG that is putting doubt into peoples minds about committing their vote to them at the next General Election.

The only clumsy thing about this leadership push is that it was let happen so late. It should have occurred when George Lee left the Dail.

Rookster

With Fine Gael falling apart at the seams and "Happy Gilmore" only full of bluster, all FF have to do is replace Cowen in the Autumn and they will win the next election. If Lenihan was not ill he would be leader by now.

mike65

The (short) FG meeting is over. Kenny told the troops to cop on and left it at that it seems.

Foxtrol

yahoo_moe wrote: »

I don't think Bruton's exactly shown much "notion of political sense" in this either. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that opinion polls have a very generous margin for error because of their methodologies, plus they don't always reflect genuine voting intentions for other reasons*, so Bruton's pretext (whatever else has gone on) seems flimsy and selfish.

It was completely selfish. If given the opportunity Bruton was always going to challenge Kenny for leader. He had no intention of waiting possibly a minimum of seven years to become leader of a FG party who would then have to rebulid again out of government. This was his golden opportunity and he wasn't going to let it pass him by.

Laminations

Kenny concludes meeting without allowing critics to voice their opinion. He just gave them a bollocking and walked out. Very brazen and not very adult

Tinker13

Laminations wrote: »

Kenny concludes meeting without allowing critics to voice their opinion. He just gave them a bollocking and walked out. Very brazen and not very adult

Okay, that's what they're saying happened.

Does this actually mean that Varadkar et al have decided to give Kenny some time before pulling the plug?

Wide Road

Why did Enda sack Richard and not do the same with some of his front bench?The plot thickens.

dicknorris

Enda Kenny tells front bench there will be a reshuffle next week and new front bench appointed

Laminations

dicknorris wrote: »

Enda Kenny tells front bench there will be a reshuffle next week and new front bench appointed

The front benchers need to call a press conference today and walk on Kenny, he is not listening to dissenting voices. He us demonstrating groupthink, something that often precedes disaster

Barname

Laminations wrote: »

Kenny concludes meeting without allowing critics to voice their opinion. He just gave them a bollocking and walked out. Very brazen and not very adult

Kenny has clocked in and out of Daddy's seat in the Dail for 35 years

Until recently he still had his vacated teachers job in the back pocket

I couldn't help but notice how Bernard 'fat cat, the finance committee will make me a millionaire' Allen burst out batting for Kenny and upping the ante with hostile rhetoric.

Mr Allen has it soooo good in his current position

Barname

Kenny will shuffle his front bench as they have weighted votes

Short term desperate grasp, This is Kenny finished.

You cant take moves from Kim Jung Il's play book in a modern western democracy, it simply does not fly.

rugbyman

Wide Road wrote: »

Why did Enda sack Richard and not do the same with some of his front bench?The plot thickens.

Because Richard had told him(Kenny) directly ,on Sunday, that he (Bruton ) had no confidence in him.
No other front bencher had done so.

all of what we onlookers know is what we read /hear.
the gist of it is that apparently ten out of nineteen shadow cabinet members had intended to stage a bloodless coup today by telling enda they did not support him.
As i see it Bruton told Enda before this, enda sacked him( the right thing i.m.o.)
By sacking him and replacing him, Kenny reversed the numbers for today. i.e instead on 10 dissenters and 9 loyalists, there are 9 dissenters and 10 loyalists.

I would imagine that today some of the dissenters are thinking " I was all for this when it was a fait accompli but now ..."

Ivan Yates is seen by many as being a good judge of situations.
Last night on TV he suggested that the numbers were with Kenny. He did go on to say that he would be damaged,perhaps irrereparable,( my words).

On another note i have just read that a new leader is elected by Parliamentry Party 65 %, members 25% and councillors ,10 %. .If this is so and Kenny loses this week , will there be a long drawn out interregnum?

Regards,Rugbyman

Laminations

FGers have to weigh up losing Kenny vs. Losing the frontbench. The latter would be far more damaging to the party. I can't believe Kenny isn't listening to his colleagues (colleagues who are trying to listen to the electorate)

Foxtrol

Laminations wrote: »

Kenny concludes meeting without allowing critics to voice their opinion. He just gave them a bollocking and walked out. Very brazen and not very adult

If true this is such a hypercritical move. Calling for a no confidence motion in the government and not allowing any dissent against himself. You know all the papers are out right now doing a full poll on Bruton and Kenny. If Bruton comes out on top in these polls then Kenny will have lost all credibility to lead the opposition, even if the party backs him.

dillodaffs

irishtimes poll

Do you think Fine Gael needs a new leader? 75% YES

25% NO


http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9401

nuff said.

Banned Account

rugbyman wrote: »

Ivan Yates is seen by many as being a good judge of situations.
Last night on TV he suggested that the numbers were with Kenny. He did go on to say that he would be damaged,perhaps irrereparable,( my words).

Funny - I was listening to Yates this morning and he seemed to reverse this - he was saying that the numbers are with Bruton. I am assuming that he still has contacts in the inner sanctum.

Barname

Where is Leo?

Laminations

dillodaffs wrote: »

irishtimes poll

Do you think Fine Gael needs a new leader? 75% YES

25% NO


http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9401

nuff said.

if they don't listen to the people, then they are as bad as FF continuing without a mandate

jmayo

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

If you know and I know and we all know that it is a lie does it matter?

You were the one that brought up the issue of timing. If Kenny had a word with Bruton behind closed doors and said "let's do this after today, we'll use today to screw FF further and then we'll rumble on wednesday" - don't forget that no statements were made until after the sacking - as I said above, up to this point it was all rumour. Kenny's move made it concrete.

This story took off the moment Bruton refused to endorse his leader and not when he was sacked FFS.
It was just not rumour then it was a fact he no longer supported Kenny.
If you can't see that then you are deluded.

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Nothing like an auld dead baby comment to stir the emotions huh:rolleyes:

Yes I mentioned about the ultrasound story, because to a lot of people it was a shocking revelation.
To you maybe not, but for anyone that would have had to terminate because they were told that ultrasound showed no heartbeat it will always leave them wondering what might have been.

Of course as usual a lot of people who don't happen to have any dealings with our health service it doesn't matter two sh**s.

Always remember "there go I, but for the grace of God".

And trust me on this, even if you go private you can be compromised if you have to rely on public hospital, as I know someone discovered last week.

Harney should be harranged on it, but of course "this is Ireland the land of systemic failures where no one is at fault or responsible".

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

As mentioned above, the motion was ill timed and pointless, and how you think Mary Harney would have been discussed at a motion regarding confidence in Cowen is beyond me.

So after cowen was named as being one of the architects of our financial meltdown no one should have asked his party and governemnt supporters to vote on his fitness for office ?
Harney and the HSE is another issue that should been subject of debate this weekend, but it was also pushed off agenda due to Bruton's move.
See the link now ? :rolleyes:

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

The problem with attempting to debate you is that you are so blinkered that you see everything except "kill FF" as a pro-FF statement. Your posts swing eratically from Harney to dead babies to Brian cowen to RTE without any semblance of reasonable structure.

Yes I hate and detest ff for what they have always done to this country.
The sooner a few more people cop on to what they do to this country the sooner we avoid the messes they create.
BTW all issues I brought in above relate to how f***ed up this little old republic is at the moment.

celtic ride

Do you think Fine Gael needs a new leader?

75% YES

25% NO
The Irish Times Poll...today.

Judgement Day

Enda is a wily old fox and his pre-empting of Brutal's plans for this morning's meeting of the Front Bench was masterly. Even Rommel would have been caught by this strategy. I note that Paddy Power are now going with Enda as the next Taioseach at 6/4 whereas Brutal has slipped to 7/4. Great entertainment value just as long as the FG don't damage themselves too much as any sane person wants the present government out ASAP.

Judgement Day

celtic ride wrote: »

Do you think Fine Gael needs a new leader?

75% YES

25% NO
The Irish Times Poll...today.

Who cares about the Irish Times Poll - it's what the FG parliamentary party decide and they know that Enda Kenny will guide them safely into power whereas Brutal is an incompetent fool.