The Frontline on compulsory Irish

Sleepy

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

If that's the case irish should be important to you

Why should Irish be important to any of it's citizens? Statements like that do more harm to the promotion of the language than good to be honest. It's like telling someone that if they prefer Rugby to Hurling they're a West Brit heathen.

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

actually, its great for employment opportunities

Aside from teaching Irish, or needlessly translating government documents into Irish, I can't think of a single job where it's a genuine requirement for the day to day activity of that job. The other jobs where one can exploit a knowledge of Irish are positions which have had it tacked on as a requirement to appease revivalists such as yourself.

taconnol wrote: »

Depending on which school you go to. But of course you can't expect every school to teach every subject.

More reason for non-gender segregated schools, IMO.

Fully agree with you on this. Combining many of our secondary schools into larger, mixed, secular institutions should provide far more choice for students and would have the added benefit of some cost savings (through combining some tertiary positions, reduced need for substitutes and simple benefits of scale on day-to-day running costs) which could be diverted into better facilities.

Noreen1 wrote: »

Please explain?
If Irish is made optional, it will more than likely be placed in the language grouping in schools, just as eg. French/German are frequently offered as options now.
If Irish is added to that Group, then pupils can choose either French, German or Irish. Hence, children will be forced to choose between Irish and a foreign language.
Realistically, that actually reduces the options available to the child, since they can no longer choose to be trilingual, only bilingual.

.... I support a foreign language being made compulsory in school. I also support a revised Irish syllabus, with the emphasis being on learning to speak the language, and making Irish as a leaving certificate subject optional, though revising the entrance requirement for Universities to a choice between Irish or a foreign language. That should ensure that neither language is discriminated unfairly against.

It seems to me to be a very reasonable compromise, ensuring the concerns of students having difficulty with Irish being a requirement for third level education are met, whilst ensuring that those who wish to learn Irish are allowed to do so, without having to sacrifice the advantages of also having a foreign language.

A lot of sense in that post.

Why not have two groupings which are comprised of mostly languages? Where a student could choose to study Irish and Spanish or French and German or for example, French and History if they only wish to do a single language...

MonkeyMan.

Sleepy wrote: »

Why should Irish be important to any of it's citizens? Statements like that do more harm to the promotion of the language than good to be honest. It's like telling someone that if they prefer Rugby to Hurling they're a West Brit heathen.


Aside from teaching Irish, or needlessly translating government documents into Irish, I can't think of a single job where it's a genuine requirement for the day to day activity of that job. The other jobs where one can exploit a knowledge of Irish are positions which have had it tacked on as a requirement to appease revivalists such as yourself.

You need to go back and study the list of jobs then because i can think of plenty!





Why not have two groupings which are comprised of mostly languages? Where a student could choose to study Irish and Spanish or French and German or for example, French and History if they only wish to do a single language...

Because you have to have at least 3 languages in a lot of courses

Noreen1

Sleepy wrote: »

A lot of sense in that post.

Why not have two groupings which are comprised of mostly languages? Where a student could choose to study Irish and Spanish or French and German or for example, French and History if they only wish to do a single language...

A very interesting idea.

TBH, I don't see how it would be practical in smaller schools, though, due to lack of resources (Teachers/Timetabling in particular).

It's probably very possible in larger urban schools, but I can't see how it could be implemented in smaller rural schools with, say, 600 to 800 pupils. Also, it would require whoever arranges the timetable (usually the Deputy Principal, in my experience) to agree to co-operate with that objective.

As far as I am aware, outside of the core subjects, schools have a certain amount of "freedom" :rolleyes: in the other subjects they offer, mainly due to regulations regarding student/teacher ratios. Or, to phrase it realistically, regulations regarding pupil/teacher ratios severely limit the actual range of subjects a school can offer.

It's certainly an idea for some point in the future, should we ever have a Government who are genuinely interested in investing in education, as opposed to using marketing terminology (like "options", and "freedom") to conceal what are actually reductions in spending.

Noreen

Macha

Sleepy wrote: »

Fully agree with you on this. Combining many of our secondary schools into larger, mixed, secular institutions should provide far more choice for students and would have the added benefit of some cost savings (through combining some tertiary positions, reduced need for substitutes and simple benefits of scale on day-to-day running costs) which could be diverted into better facilities.

Yeah, I think this would really help minimise the strongly gendered professions we have in Ireland, which are a significant contributor to the gender pay gap.

Plus it's just stupid

Sleepy

MonkeyMan.: If you can think of plenty of *real* jobs that don't exist purely to promote the Irish language or have Irish tacked on as an artificial requirement please point some of the out...

As far as I can see from what Noreen (who seems to be involved in education) posted above, most schools don't offer two languages at present. I know that in order to study German for Junior Cert when I was in school, I had to take it as an optional lunch-time class and that option wasn't even available for Leaving Cert.

Sleepy

Noreen1 wrote: »

A very interesting idea.

TBH, I don't see how it would be practical in smaller schools, though, due to lack of resources (Teachers/Timetabling in particular).

It's probably very possible in larger urban schools, but I can't see how it could be implemented in smaller rural schools with, say, 600 to 800 pupils. Also, it would require whoever arranges the timetable (usually the Deputy Principal, in my experience) to agree to co-operate with that objective.

As far as I am aware, outside of the core subjects, schools have a certain amount of "freedom" :rolleyes: in the other subjects they offer, mainly due to regulations regarding student/teacher ratios. Or, to phrase it realistically, regulations regarding pupil/teacher ratios severely limit the actual range of subjects a school can offer.

It's certainly an idea for some point in the future, should we ever have a Government who are genuinely interested in investing in education, as opposed to using marketing terminology (like "options", and "freedom") to conceal what are actually reductions in spending.

Noreen

Add taconnol's idea about removing gender splits from schools, remove religious denominations from schools and generally consolidate schools around the country and you should be able to get schools large enough (and gain the necessary savings) to make it work

taconnol wrote: »

Yeah, I think this would really help minimise the strongly gendered professions we have in Ireland, which are a significant contributor to the gender pay gap.

Plus it's just stupid

We'll leave our disagreement regarding the existence of a gender pay gap out of this thread... it's nice to agree with you on something for a change

Iwasfrozen

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

1.It isn't a dead language

No, but it is a brain dead language.

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

2. All the gaeltacht regions are keeping it alive by speaking it on a daily basis like people speak english, french etc.

Yes they are keeping it alive but they themselves only survive due to government money most notably Foras na Gaelige.

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

3. Obviously students from the gaeltacht are going to take irish as a leaving cert subject. Do you have the figure of the amount of students who come to ireland every summer to learn the language?? they are keeping it alive aswell. people from all over the country, because its a lovely language to have that has a sense of history.

No but it is very few I would imagine. Certainly not enough to warrent it being made compulsory in our schools.

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

And no i do not agree because the irish language has been takin off the list of languages that are dying. yes i have proved my point.

What list would this be?

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

350,000 people!!oh my! i have more hope than ever that the irish language will survive and spread!!!

And spread? I'm not really understanding you here. Why would you want the language to spread?

caseyann

http://www.examinations.ie/statistics/statistics_2009/JC_National_Stats_2009.pdf


Anyone else can get the stats for Irish exam points?

Irish and her sister languages, Welsh and Breton, are among the oldest living languages in Europe. Written records go back to the early Christian period.
http://www.gaeltachttravel.com/gaeltacht-regions/statistics-on-the-gaeltacht-and-the-irish-language/

caseyann

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

1. Ní teanga caillte í
2.Tá muintir na gaeltachta sna 7 reigiún í labhairt agus dhá usáid chuile lá beo, níl an rialtas. Sea tabharaíonn foras na gaeilge cúnamh ach tá muide ag déanamh rud éigin faoi
3.Tá chuile dhuine i sna gaeltachtaí ag dul gaeilge a thógáil mar ábhar agus an bhfuil figiúir agat don líon scoláirí a thagann chuile shamhradh chun í a fhoghlam de bharr gur teanga beo agus spraoiúil í le labhairt. Tá brí lei

Agus ní aontaim leat in aon chor, mar tá an ghaeilge tógtha don liosta de theangacha i mbaol báis ( the irish language has been takin off the list of languages that are dying) yes i think i have proved my point


350,000 people!!! oh a dhia, sin an t-uafás, tá an-dóchas agam go bhfanfaidh sí beo!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

1.It isn't a dead language
2. All the gaeltacht regions are keeping it alive by speaking it on a daily basis like people speak english, french etc.
3. Obviously students from the gaeltacht are going to take irish as a leaving cert subject. Do you have the figure of the amount of students who come to ireland every summer to learn the language?? they are keeping it alive aswell. people from all over the country, because its a lovely language to have that has a sense of history.

And no i do not agree because the irish language has been takin off the list of languages that are dying. yes i have proved my point.

350,000 people!!oh my! i have more hope than ever that the irish language will survive and spread!!!

Cén Chanúint a fhoghlaim tú?

MonkeyMan.

caseyann wrote: »

Cén Chanúint a fhoghlaim tú?

canúint chonamara

caseyann

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

canúint chonamara

So not to breach anymore charters.My granddad taught me chonamara Irish,but i was taught Kerry Irish in school It is one of the oldest languages in Europe and wont die out :cool:

MonkeyMan.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, but it is a brain dead language.


Yes they are keeping it alive but they themselves only survive due to government money most notably Foras na Gaelige.


No but it is very few I would imagine. Certainly not enough to warrent it being made compulsory in our schools.


What list would this be?


And spread? I'm not really understanding you here. Why would you want the language to spread?

Im getting a bit tired o explainin this to you over and over.

1.it isnt a brain dead language because it has been takin of the list of languages that are dying
2.the only help they really get is from údarás na gaeltachta. you see people from gaeltachtaí speak it for themselves, not because of money they are getting to keep it alive, its just a natural thing. Your 1st language will be the one you speak all the time not because of money. When i speak it i wouldnt think twice about any money. Its natural instinct.
3. You wouldnt believe the amount of gaelgóirí that come here every summer to learn the language, its incredible, it really is! they leave with great irish! they do this course because they know it will help them in the long run, educational wise and to just speak our native language. The french are known for their french language, the germans are known for their german, and why shouldnt people work to keep the irish! Irish should be on the curriculum just like english has to be done. Are you saying ireland isnt known for their irish? It is, it is a known fact that english is irelands main language but thats because of history. I think that in a few years time people will realise how important the language is and that it'll spread far beyond the gaeltachtaí because of the majority of people learning it!

I wouldnt mind but its a lovely language thats easy to learn!.. in schools we learn french that isnt even our native language but you would gladly see the end of irish?? i really dont understand.

You seem to have a strong dislike for the language and i really dont know why?

MonkeyMan.

caseyann wrote: »

So not to breach anymore charters.My granddad taught me chonamara Irish,but i was taught Kerry Irish in school It is one of the oldest languages in Europe and wont die out :cool:

oh really? was he himself from conamara? i love canúint chiarraí!! yeah thats what i mean its the oldest language and itd be such a shame for it to go
It def wont die out

Byron85

I love Irish despite the fact that i'm nowhere near fluent in it. I only know the very basics, but, I love how it sounds and how it feels to be in different country with your friends and to be able to say a few words in Irish to each other. You really don't appreciate it until you're in a different country. I'm intent on improving my Irish this summer. I have a few months to kill so why not.

The curriculum needs a major overhaul. It's boring and outdated. Reading Irish myths as Gaeilge is not the way to teach people how to speak a language. It needs to be hands on and immersive.

MonkeyMan.

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

I love Irish despite the fact that i'm nowhere near fluent in it. I only know the very basics, but, I love how it sounds and how it feels to be in different country with your friends and to be able to say a few words in Irish to each other. You really don't appreciate it until you're in a different country. I'm intent on improving my Irish this summer. I have a few months to kill so why not.

The curriculum needs a major overhaul. It's boring and outdated. Reading Irish myths as Gaeilge is not the way to teach people how to speak a language. It needs to be hands on and immersive.

I agree with you fully! its a lovely language and really easy to learn!!..its my 1st language and i think its so special in some way! i do think however that the curriculum does need to be changed in some way, but its happening in the year 2012, they are taking the stair out and there will only be 5 poems on the course, the oral will be worth 40% and tape will be 30 marks i think! so they are putting all the work into speaking the language rather than learnin poems!

loldog

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

oh really? was he himself from conamara? i love canúint chiarraí!! yeah thats what i mean its the oldest language and itd be such a shame for it to go
It def wont die out

Is fearr liom Cois Farraige. Is breá liom bheith ag éisteacht le Máirtín Tom Sheáinín ag caint is ag comhrá is ag cíoradh an cheist le daoine éagsúla ar TG4.

Ach táim díreach i gcoinne teagaisc na Gaeile faoi bhrú sna scoileanna. Is fearr Gaeilge bheith deontach toilteanach roghnach. Milleadh gnáthúsaid na Gaeilge i measc na ndaoine fásta, ní mar gheall ar Mhurder Machine an Phiarsaigh and má tá aisérí i ndán don Gaeilge, is as lármheasc an phobail a thiocfaidh se, seachas na seomraí scoile.

.

thebman

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

Because you have to have at least 3 languages in a lot of courses

Show me these oh so many courses that require 3 languages please.

MonkeyMan.

loldog wrote: »

Is fearr liom Cois Farraige. Is breá liom bheith ag éisteacht le Máirtín Tom Sheáinín ag caint is ag comhrá is ag cíoradh an cheist le daoine éagsúla ar TG4.

Ach táim díreach i gcoinne teagaisc na Gaeile faoi bhrú sna scoileanna. Is fearr Gaeilge bheith deontach toilteanach roghnach. Milleadh gnáthúsaid na Gaeilge i measc na daoine, ní mar gheall ar Mhurder Machine an Phiarsaigh and má tá aisérí i ndán don Gaeilge, is as lármheasc an phobail a thiocfaidh se, seachas na seomraí scoile.

.

Aontaim leat i go leor atá tú ag rá! ach tá muintir na gaeltachta agus na scoileanna gaeltachta ag oibriú le chéile ionas go mairfidh an teanga. gan cúnamh uaidh scoileanna is dóigh nach mbeadh an bhéim céanna air? is sna scoileanna a fhoghlaimíonn tú chun ardchaighdéan na gaeilge a scríobh ach is ins an mbaile a shaibhríonn tú do theanga. Oibríonn scoileanna agus an teaghlach as lámha a chéile, an gceapfá? Tá an siollabas dá athrú sa bhliain 2012, beidh 40% ag dul le haghaidh an scrúdú béil.

Schools and the home help eachother out in spreading the language and enriching it. its in schools that you learn how to write in irish with high standards and its at home that you learn how to speak it. The course is changing in 2012, 40% for oral

MonkeyMan.

thebman wrote: »

Show me these oh so many courses that require 3 languages please.

a lot of courses require a c3 in honours irish and a c3 in honours english plus a european language!.. one example is teaching but its very broad! there are so many teachers in ireland at the moment, primary and secondary who had to have at least a c3 in honours irish! ..if irish wasnt compulsory, we wouldnt have a lot of teachers now! and wher would our education system be then!!

Stark

thebman wrote: »

Show me these oh so many courses that require 3 languages please.

For UCC, you need 3 languages for pretty much any course in the Commerce Faculty, Arts Faculty, Law Faculty or Medicine Faculty.

MonkeyMan.

Stark wrote: »

For UCC, you need 3 languages for pretty much any course in the Commerce Faculty, Arts Faculty, Law Faculty or Medicine Faculty.

thank you Stark somebody knows:D

Pace2008

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

The french are known for their french language, the germans are known for their german, and why shouldnt people work to keep the irish!

Bad comparison though it may be:try this trope with Brazil, Chile, or South Africa, and see how well it sounds.

sceptre

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

it has been takin of the list of languages that are dying

I've seen multiple references to "the list". What list? When was it put on and when was it taken off? I see someone else already asked that question without a response.

I did point out earlier that an effort to back things up is something worthwhile. It still is.

sceptre

Being blunt and with mod hat on, and this is a general observation aimed at many, there's still far too much irrelevant rubbish about it being "a lovely language" versus it being "a useless language", both of which are rather off the point. For those of you who continue to fail to see the actual point of the thread, please read the first post and the thread title before posting. It'll save me going back and deleting the off-topic mumbo-jumbo to preserve the discussion for those that can. I don't like locking thread with a final comment of "we're done for the sake of sense and sanity", help out the universe if you can by helping me avoid that here. Whether you love it or you hate it isn't relevant at all to the discussion and certainly not as a primary point.

That's a formal generally aimed moderator request to stick to the point, on-topic and relevant and avoid wibble waffle. Please note it as such - it'd be an interesting discussion if you could all keep it that way.

/mod

Sleepy

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

a lot of courses require a c3 in honours irish and a c3 in honours english plus a european language!.. one example is teaching but its very broad! there are so many teachers in ireland at the moment, primary and secondary who had to have at least a c3 in honours irish! ..if irish wasnt compulsory, we wouldnt have a lot of teachers now! and wher would our education system be then!!

I wasn't aware that English was considered to be a 'language' subject in schools tbh. "Language" subjects to me would mean secondary languages. Hence, when I suggested two class groupings which were predominantly made up of languages (say 3 out of 4 of the lessons available in each slot being a language) I was referring to Irish, French, Spanish, German, Latin etc.

Am I right in reading this post as a statement that we need to keep Irish compulsory for Leaving Cert so that we'll be able to produce teachers to teach it? That seems like rather circular logic to me, not to mention the damage this would have on the calibre of teachers available to teach Irish.

If the subject is optional, those that choose to study it do so because they have an interest in, or at the very least no intrinisic dislike of, the language. Surely the best teachers future students could have would be the likes of yourself who clearly have a passion for the language? And since no-one is arguing that they shouldn't have the option to choose Irish as a secondary language wouldn't they still have the option to do so while those who have no interest in the language get to pursue something they do have an interest in instead of being made hate the language by having it forced on them when they have no interest in learning it.

caseyann

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

oh really? was he himself from conamara? i love canúint chiarraí!! yeah thats what i mean its the oldest language and itd be such a shame for it to go
It def wont die out

Yes he was, love it there My great uncle only recently passed from down there at 98 years of age
Fluent Irish along with his kids and their kids.What a dead brain language eh :rolleyes:lol
I know if it can be admired and respected and loved by other nationalities don't get how some people hate it..Ok not been able to learn it some people get frustrated but to have no love for their native teanga,níl fhios agam
It is like some other languages other countries tried to eradicate it but love for their language like we have for our own will keep it going.
Interesting enough.I spoke to a girl who sat her leaving cert last year and she did ordinary level Irish.She said she was happy it was compulsory.Among the other kids i spoke to who are still in school.They said they complain about it,but they complain about everything and would'nt change they get to learn it in school.

caseyann

Irish language activists want a bilingual nation. Some blame a curriculum that focuses on grammar and rote memorization, rather than teaching conversational Irish. Others say that the complex language must be modernized, following Israel's success in reviving Hebrew.
The growth of Irish-language schools, or gaelscoileanna, has lifted hopes for the language's survival. Outside Gaeltacht areas, 52 Irish-language elementary schools have been created since 1993, bringing the number to 120. And more books are being translated into Irish; students can now read Harry Potter in the old language.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66450069#post66450069

The other rubbish about it Irish language if spoken fluently in Ireland causing economic problems is a load of scare mongering smoke screens.

Its apart of our lives what we hid and preserved under threat of death if spoken.Books destroyed to buy it.But its still going and before brought back into the schools was spoken in secret.
People may complain about Irish but that's fault of English speaking schools not dedicating proper time to speaking it and turned it into a chore not something they should love to have.
Luckily as i went to all Irish schools,it felt like a natural thing to me to speak it.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Pace2008

caseyann wrote: »

I spoke to a girl who sat her leaving cert last year and she did ordinary level Irish.She said she was happy it was compulsory.Among the other kids i spoke to who are still in school.They said they complain about it,but they complain about everything and would'nt change they get to learn it in school.

This means nothing, as the views of the people whom you've encountered do not necessarily represent those of the population as a whole.

The majority of students in my school either hated or were completely indifferent to the language. Does my anecdote trump yours?