The Frontline on compulsory Irish

Permabear

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caseyann

donegalfella wrote: »

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To you perhaps :rolleyes:

Permabear

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caseyann

pooch90 wrote: »

That has more to do with the fact that you learn more in two weeks in the Gaeltacht than you would in 2 years of school and that people had money the last few years.

The fact of the matter is that if we want to make Irish an intrinsic part of irish life, we have to concentrate on the spoken word and forgo loftier goals like idiotic literature. Make it compulsory to junior cert and strive to have them fluent in the language after 9 years (not too big a task surely). When people are fluent they will want to do it at LC level as it will become easier points.

It would also help, at primary level at least, if an Irish degree was seen as a bigger plus than being able to kick a football or sing. Unfortunately for the language it's the other way around so we end up with teachers who can barely string a sentence together out of a book and who cannot natter away in irish - surely a core ability to be able to competently teach a language!

Problem where i have witnessed it to stem from.Is the english speaking schools.Their Irish teaching is poor and i do agree they do not concentrate on speaking enough in the English speaking schools.Then you have a 12 year old who goes into secondary school,with a level of Irish that should be still in second class, with perhaps compared to me,who did attend all Irish school.I was at right level and prepared for what was ahead of me.

caseyann

donegalfella wrote: »

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There will be how many people who will not actually carry on or even like science,and since when does science get pushed aside for Irish.A person can pick science doesn't have to miss out on because of Irish.
I would argue since with you English should be optional if that's the case,because according to you in order to read and write in a language you simply just have to be able to speak it.
I asked before what Irish were you taught in school?
So your argument fails.

caseyann

donegalfella wrote: »

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So just because Irish literature is of no interest to you and others find English boring and not needed they have a very odd notion about literary history?

Pace2008

caseyann wrote: »

I wont replying to the other part so long as you make personal statements towards me without reason or provocation.

I didn't make a personal statement. I think you're maintaining a belief that doesn't reflect reality and that is a delusion.

I am telling you the majority will want their children to learn Irish as they did.And then it is up to that individual to try incorporate into their lives.

You're telling me but you're not backing it up.

They go off down to the parts of Ireland where they do speak fluent Irish 24 hour basis and they will feel the importance and proud of themselves.

Yes, for piss-ups and girls and improved grades in a compulsory subject.

pooch90

caseyann wrote: »

Problem where i have witnessed it to stem from.Is the english speaking schools.Their Irish teaching is poor and i do agree they do not concentrate on speaking enough in the English speaking schools.Then you have a 12 year old who goes into secondary school,with a level of Irish that should be still in second class, with perhaps compared to me,who did attend all Irish school.I was at right level and prepared for what was ahead of me.

Should have clarified that it was English speaking schools that I was talking about.
But the point remains and, if we are serious about Irish, we have to get our priorities right. Students should be entitled to have competent teachers. While its handy enough for most subjects as you don't have to be a mathematician to teach 6th class maths (in fact its supposedly better if your NOT a mathematician), you need to be (uniquely of all subject in primary level) fully fluent, capable, comfortable and confident in Irish to properly teach children.
Therefore, I would argue that either we abandon irish or we place an emphasis on recruiting teachers with irish degrees so that the children have a fair chance of becoming fluent.

Pace2008

caseyann wrote: »

There will be how many people who will not actually carry on or even like science,and since when does science get pushed aside for Irish.

The next time you're driving your car, or get a plane to visit your relatives in a foreign country, or recover from an infection that would have caused an agonising death 100 years ago, be thankful people invested more time in scientific disciplines than learning the subtle differences between the finíocht and the ruríocht.

Pittens

If you believe that Irish is more valuable than science to the future of the country, then please tell us why.

Whats the libertarian view on Hamlet? Why not just teach business English?

loldog

They should teach about the Indo-European roots of Irish words, that's the most interesting part of language for me, the sanasaíocht.

If people are going to be forced to learn Irish then they should be allowed to develop some appreciation of its importance to our common European heritage.

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nyarlothothep

I bet if you made it optional more people would take an interest in it and would be able to speak it fluently. You can't impose a culture, that just creates a backlash. No one has the right to do it either.

caseyann

pooch90 wrote: »

Should have clarified that it was English speaking schools that I was talking about.
But the point remains and, if we are serious about Irish, we have to get our priorities right. Students should be entitled to have competent teachers. While its handy enough for most subjects as you don't have to be a mathematician to teach 6th class maths (in fact its supposedly better if your NOT a mathematician), you need to be (uniquely of all subject in primary level) fully fluent, capable, comfortable and confident in Irish to properly teach children.
Therefore, I would argue that either we abandon irish or we place an emphasis on recruiting teachers with irish degrees so that the children have a fair chance of becoming fluent.

That is exactly what is needed.
But remember no child in primary school is serious about anything.That's why must be compulsory,but definitely needs to be be revamped in its teaching in English speaking schools.Forty Min's in one day for five days is not enough for any child to grasp Irish properly and to form confidence in them selves.

Noreen1

donegalfella wrote: »

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Let me give this example:

When I started secondary school, I studied the following subjects:

English, Irish, French, German, Latin, Maths, Science, Domestic Science, Religion, History, Geography, Business Studies, Civics, and Art. Total: 14 Subjects. We dropped two subjects in second year, leaving 12 subjects for Junior Cert.

If I remember correctly, the only options were between Domestic Science/Technology subjects, and Art/Music. Thus, of a total of 16 subjects offered, 14 were, to all intents and purposes, regarded as core subjects, dropping to 12 in second year (I remember detesting Art with a vengeance:D)

In the same school, last year, the subject range had dropped to 10 subjects at examination level, one of which was CSPE. (Sorry, I can't remember the exact subject groupings) Whereas CSPE is certainly beneficial to students, for most, it will not assist in their chosen careers - so, realistically 9 practical subjects to Junior cert. level.

In one generation, that is three potential subjects lost to our children!:eek:
In fairness, one subject was lost due to reduced school hours - but the other two are pretty much a direct result of some very clever marketing by the Dept of Education, in introducing "more options" whilst reducing pupil/teacher ratios at the same time.

Realistically, if Irish, or any other subject, is made optional, then history indicates pretty clearly that the students, and therefore the country as a whole, economically speaking, are the losers.

In the current Economic climate, I sincerely believe that the Country would be better served by making more subjects compulsory to Junior Cert level - not optional!
For this reason ,I would advocate making Science and a foreign language compulsory, in addition to the core subjects. It seems to me to be the best solution to ensure a better standard of Education for all students, without deliberately giving an educational advantage/disadvantage to any one group.

I would actually prefer to see more subjects becoming compulsory to Junior cert level - but I acknowledge that, without significant financial investment, that is currently impossible!:(

IMO, the public need to work together to ensure that standards of Education are improved. That will not be achieved by squabbling over which subjects should be sacrificed to the "options" grouping - only by people recognising that what is needed is more real choice, for all of our students.

Noreen

caseyann

Pace2008 wrote: »

I didn't make a personal statement. I think you're maintaining a belief that doesn't reflect reality and that is a delusion.

You're telling me but you're not backing it up.

Yes, for piss-ups and girls and improved grades in a compulsory subject.

What you want surveys and stats,is that all you work off.Do you ever use your ears and listen and pay attention to the fact people send their kids to all irish speaking schools because they want to.On top of that their children go on waiting lists to get into Irish schools for years because of the amount who want to get in?

When did you go to gaeltacht?

Stark

People send their kids to gaelscoileanna because they don't want their kids being educated with the "riff-raff". In most cases it has little to do with love of the language and more to do with elitism and having too much money thanks to "An Tíogar Ceilteach".

pooch90

caseyann wrote: »

That is exactly what is needed.
But remember no child in primary school is serious about anything.That's why must be compulsory,but definitely needs to be be revamped in its teaching in English speaking schools.Forty Min's in one day for five days is not enough for any child to grasp Irish properly and to form confidence in them selves.

Exactly. Teach them Irish mainly by engaging with them throuh irish on an ongoing basis.
Arguably, one way of doing that would be to have all gaelscoils or to have irish weeks in englis schools a few times a year where everything practical is done through irish (coaching PE could also be done in irish so that kids associate the language with fun as a cheap way to boost it).

The problem here is while we agree and what we are saying is so obvious a 5 year old could see it,somehow those who are in charge seem oblivious to reality and unwilling to actually put some constructive thought into what they are doing.

aDeener

donegalfella wrote: »

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ohh heyy you got back to me, care to back up your previous statements? i have to say the gaa being "alien" one was classic stuff.

well i dont see why they should be "rammed down people's throats" :rolleyes: why should they be compulsory? i know of absolutely no one who has made any use out of their knowledge of those texts.

aDeener

Stark wrote: »

People send their kids to gaelscoileanna because they don't want their kids being educated with the "riff-raff". In most cases it has little to do with love of the language and more to do with elitism and having too much money thanks to "An Tíogar Ceilteach".

care to provide a source for such rabbling? the celtic tiger is dead a couple of years in case you havent noticed, wonder why there are still people going to these schools?

Pittens

In most cases it has little to do with love of the language and more to do with elitism and having too much money thanks to "An Tíogar Ceilteach".

they are often free.

Pace2008

caseyann wrote: »

What you want surveys and stats,is that all you work off.

They certainly help, as we can't paint a fully accurate picture of the world based solely on personal experiences.

Do you ever use your ears and listen and pay attention to the fact people send their kids to all irish speaking schools because they want to.

Of course some parents will want their kids to be fluent in Irish, though I don't see any evidence to suggest they're in the majority. In some cases, there's more at play than parents simply wanting their children to be proficient. Some children are sent to these schools because there are less foreign nationals and members of the working class attending

When did you go to gaeltacht?

I didn't though I regret it. A lot of my friends went and had a great time, what with the piss-ups and girls and all.

thebman

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

a lot of courses require a c3 in honours irish and a c3 in honours english plus a european language!.. one example is teaching but its very broad! there are so many teachers in ireland at the moment, primary and secondary who had to have at least a c3 in honours irish! ..if irish wasnt compulsory, we wouldnt have a lot of teachers now! and wher would our education system be then!!

I thought so, so your just ignoring the likelihood that if Irish was optional many colleges would stop requiring it for entry to courses in areas like computer science?

Irish is only required as its mandatory for leaving for many courses and the whole government pursuing this agenda of mandatory Irish encourages colleges to require it which is why you can get in to most colleges with a D3 in Ordinary Irish but they have higher requirements for the subjects that will have given you a background in subjects useful for your course.

If Irish was optional, it would only be required for colleges that make use of it during the course.

English is not a language subject for leaving as you aren't learning to speak it. Its more an appreciation of poems, plays and books at that level as its assumed you can speak and know the grammar of the language at that point.

Then you have the European languages which one is required for many courses. Irish could easily become one of these accepted languages for many of the courses that don't contain any Irish so people without Irish wouldn't be at a disadvantage such as Computer Science.

caseyann

Stark wrote: »

People send their kids to gaelscoileanna because they don't want their kids being educated with the "riff-raff". In most cases it has little to do with love of the language and more to do with elitism and having too much money thanks to "An Tíogar Ceilteach".

Wrong :rolleyes:

Permabear

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losh

The problem with Irish is the people who speak it fluently some how think that
they are more Irish than the rest of us non speakers.

I do not like traditional Irish music, I do not have any interest in the GAA,
and I have never heard anyone speak irish in everyday life .

I resented having been forced to learn this language in school which had no
relevance to any thing i experienced as a child.

The Irish language has no relevance anymore and all the state grants and
forced teaching will never change that.

caseyann

Pace2008 wrote: »

They certainly help, as we can't paint a fully accurate picture of the world based solely on personal experiences.

Of course some parents will want their kids to be fluent in Irish, though I don't see any evidence to suggest they're in the majority. In some cases, there's more at play than parents simply wanting their children to be proficient. Some children are sent to these schools because there are less foreign nationals and members of the working class attending

I didn't though I regret it. A lot of my friends went and had a great time, what with the piss-ups and girls and all.

Only way that is going to work if they send it to every native Irish family in the country,simple percentages of the few is not a view point of the majority,and simple small percentages of the surveys they have done as not done in every house of every native Irish person.So therefore can not be used as an example.
And most parents have their kids on them lists when they have room in English speaking schools because?
Thats rubbish before there was huge influx of non nationals Irish schools had huge waiting lists.

Yeah Gaeltacht in primary school is piss up and girls.

aDeener

donegalfella wrote: »

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no no, maybe you should explain why they are important, (for i am an uneducated boor) - as i have said already i know no one who has made any use out of them. i presume you think they should remain compulsory, if so why? why should they be rammed down our throats?

aDeener

losh wrote: »

The problem with Irish is the people who speak it fluently some how think that
they are more Irish than the rest of us non speakers.

I do not like traditional Irish music, I do not have any interest in the GAA,
and I have never heard anyone speak irish in everyday life .

I resented having been forced to learn this language in school which had no
relevance to any thing i experienced as a child.

The Irish language has no relevance anymore and all the state grants and
forced teaching will never change that.

thats fair enough, at least you are not making the absurd statement that they are alien to "modern ireland"

Sleepy

pooch90 wrote: »

Arguably, one way of doing that would be to have all gaelscoils or to have irish weeks in englis schools a few times a year where everything practical is done through irish (coaching PE could also be done in irish so that kids associate the language with fun as a cheap way to boost it).

The problem here is while we agree and what we are saying is so obvious a 5 year old could see it,somehow those who are in charge seem oblivious to reality and unwilling to actually put some constructive thought into what they are doing.

Uhm, are you completely ignoring the fact that there are many of us on this thread that don't agree with you.

I don't want my children learning Irish at the expense of their education in science, history, geography, written English or any of the other subjects at Junior Cert level. Given the weighting towards Irish on the primary curriculum, I think this is clearly the case at present. I've no objection to an element of Irish being on the curriculum but it shouldn't be a primary focus imho.

Without attacking anyone personally, some of the written English in this thread from those who've been educated in Gaelscoileanna would not stand up to business usage. While this is a web forum where more casual usage of language is normal, and those alumni posting here may not be representative of most of those educated in the Gaelscoileanna, it would make me curious to examine the Leaving Cert English results from Gaelscoils in comparison to schools of similar socio-economic make-ups.

aDeener wrote: »

care to provide a source for such rabbling? the celtic tiger is dead a couple of years in case you havent noticed, wonder why there are still people going to these schools?

As already pointed out, way earlier in this thread, the current system provides quite a few advantages to children attending Gaelscoilleana (even more so that those attending, for example, a French college):

1. Increased points in the Leaving Certificate for sitting other subjects through Irish.

2. A virtual guarantee of a higher level A in one of the three compulsory Leaving Cert subjects. Even the poorest student in a Gaelscoil shouldn't be scoring below a B3 on Higher Level Irish.

3. At primary level, a lower proportion of foreign nationals that often require extra assistance with their English not having been exposed to a life immersed in it to the level they are in the course of the school day before.

4. Lower levels of 'disruptive' students from socially deprived areas / social welfare families. This will probably be hotly debated but it seems, to me at least, very evident that the average child attending a Gaelscoil is from a socially aspirational, middle-class background where they tend to receive far more parental support - both monetary in terms of grinds and/or summer school programs (e.g. residential Gaeltacht / French College weeks) and in terms of simple assistance with homework, encouragement etc.

None of these shouldn be the main reasons a child is sent to a Gaelscoil, of course, and I'm not suggesting they motivate all parents sending their children to them, but since I'm at the age where I'm a father myself and many of my friends have had children in the past couple of years or are expecting them soon, I'm hearing lots of people advocating the Gaelscoileanna for these reasons. The fluency in Irish is almost seen as an added bonus by many!

Permabear

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