The Frontline on compulsory Irish

Eliot Rosewater

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not currently engaged in official business, but when I was so engaged I transacted some of it in Irish because people with whom I was dealing wished to use it.

But I think there's rarely a situation where one is forced to use Irish; as you said, those people used Irish voluntary. The exceptions are minimal, and such exceptions exist for other languages too. There are certain Polski Skleps where the staff can't speak English, for instance.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There have been scholarly and popular books that deal with the subject. P.W. Joyce's English as We Speak it in Ireland, first published in 1910, is a seminal work, and much of what he found is still relevant today (not all of it, of course, because language constantly evolves).

Cheers for that. I've added to my "wishlist" which contains, at this stage, over a years worth of reading so I may come to it eventually!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

P. Breathnach

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

But I think there's rarely a situation where one is forced to use Irish; as you said, those people used Irish voluntary...

You might say that I was forced to use Irish! English is my first language, and I have reasonably good second-language Irish. As a public servant, I acknowledged the right of people to deal with state institutions in their choice of either of our two official languages, even if it involved a bit more effort on my part (I even had to do my own typing, as the typist who worked for me was not comfortable with Irish).

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Valmont

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That still isn't enough. It is a waste of time for primary school children who should be learning about science and computers. There should be an option for those interested to study it for their leaving certificate and if parents want their children to learn Irish they should send them to after school lessons at their own expense. I don't see why everyone should suffer for the sake of a nationalistic sentiment.

sensibleken

theredletter wrote: »

Cameolt...

what's the square route of 340?
describe the events that lead to the 1916 rising.
discuss the theme of isolation in Sylvia Plath's poetry.
paint me a poster for a film festival.
have a small conversation with me in German/ French.
what is the main vein of the heart called?

Pulminary vein?

Stark

Vena Cava. I remember most of what I learnt in Biology. Didn't do History so can't answer the 1916 one, similarly with Sylvia Plath's poetry. Though I could discuss Gerard Manley Hopkins, Hamlet or Lord of the Flies and Animal Farm alright. I can remember the Táin Bó Cúailnge from my early days of learning Irish, but damned if I could remember half the ****e on the Leaving Cert syllabus though. Maybe if they used material that had actual literary value and wasn't taught for the sole reason of being written in Irish, they'd have more success.

caseyann

Only country in world where there is hate for their own identity and nationality and language.

It should be optional to the individual family(If they don't wish to participate then let them go to a different class)
Its simple government open schools,where all the non nationals who don't wish to learn Irish or catholic religion can go to,and yous who don't want your children catholic or speaking their native language can send them there to with the non Irish.;)if yous would like to eradicate the small bit of national identity left in your children and country.
Or simply leave and go live in another country.But then you will be learning their so i guess only choice is to go to England the country that tried to kill all Irish and our identity or to USA Or Australia.Simple.
There wont be that many schools needed to open.As majority of Irish families like their kids learning Irish in school.;)


Funny other countries have other languages as compulsory and they may never use them but you don't hear them whinging about it.

Whats even funnier is a load of non nationals from eastern Europe and poland and other parts of europe and who have arrived in Ireland to live,their kids are learning Irish.Because guess what its apart of our country.

sensibleken

can't we make english optional. we already speak it and i dont need to know shakespeare. its imperealistic sentiment :rolleyes:

Pedro K

I love speaking Irish, but absolutely despise the way it is rammed down childrens necks. By the time you get to second level you're nearly expected to have as good a grasp on Irish as you do of English.

When you were learning to speak, you didn't learn to write at the same time. Much much much more emphasis should be put on the Oral aspect of Irish.

When I was in secondary school, our Irish teacher for 5th and 6th year used to come in on a Monday morning, and spend the whole period talking to us all in Irish about our weekend etc. And it was great, we all left the books in the bags and just chatted.

Most people go into their oral examination with a list of prepared answers, which is crap...


EDIT: Just watched the frontline on RTE player there.... Old Bawn community school was my secondary school! Gwan! :-)

Sleepy

aDeener wrote: »

a country's history is not part of their modern culture?? what an ignorant statement :rolleyes:

LOL, I love how you ignored every argument against Irish being compulsory in my post, failed to post an argument as to why it should be compulsory and instead picked a hole in one sentence and then called me ignorant. You, sir, are a beacon to us all in the art of the debate.

Irish Dancing, Terrorism, Incest, Child Abuse, Mysogyny, Catholicism, Paganism and Alocholism are all parts of our history and culture too. Should they all be mandatory for Leaving Cert Students as well? I think you'd have quite a few irate parents to deal with were your logic to be applied here...

Pedro K

Still watching the frontline here... Who is this bint round the 36th minute, "Literature is a way of enriching the language"

You can't enrich what isn't there. There's no point in learning about the imagery, alliteration, similes and metaphors in poetry when you can't even hold a competent conversation in the language...

It really annoys me the way it's taught. Kids come out of school hating the language.

LordSutch

So what's going to happen in the short/medium term re the compulsory teaching of Irish? Sadly, I suspect nothing much at all, and I guess that we will still be having the same arguments in twenty years time as we have been having for the last eighty years. What is the point of leaving senior school with only the 'cupla focal' :cool:

fontanalis

caseyann wrote: »

Only country in world where there is hate for their own identity and nationality and language.

It should be optional to the individual family(If they don't wish to participate then let them go to a different class)
Its simple government open schools,where all the non nationals who don't wish to learn Irish or catholic religion can go to,and yous who don't want your children catholic or speaking their native language can send them there to with the non Irish.;)if yous would like to eradicate the small bit of national identity left in your children and country.
Or simply leave and go live in another country.But then you will be learning their so i guess only choice is to go to England the country that tried to kill all Irish and our identity or to USA Or Australia.Simple.
There wont be that many schools needed to open.As majority of Irish families like their kids learning Irish in school.;)


Funny other countries have other languages as compulsory and they may never use them but you don't hear them whinging about it.

Whats even funnier is a load of non nationals from eastern Europe and poland and other parts of europe and who have arrived in Ireland to live,their kids are learning Irish.Because guess what its apart of our country.

I think it's because the language has a terrible image problem (association with poverty centuries ago and the need to learn english to emigrate) and it's actually not that attractive to listen to compared to Italian, French or Spanish.
Maybe if it was taught as part of overall irish culture it might help as the language seems to have a fascinating history and it's quite old.

Sleepy

fontanalis wrote: »

I think it's because the language has a terrible image problem (association with poverty centuries ago and the need to learn english to emigrate) and it's actually not that attractive to listen to compared to Italian, French or Spanish.

And none of the image problem is down to it being forced upon students who are trying to get the best Leaving Cert they possibly can?

Maybe if it was taught as part of overall irish culture it might help as the language seems to have a fascinating history and it's quite old.

I'd agree with this point, I had a good Irish teacher for 6 months of my 14 years of education and he used to take two classes out of the five he had us for each week to teach us Irish folklore and the history of the language. It was way off curriculum but the most interesting lessons I had in the subject.

It still wouldn't have made me want to keep studying the subject beyond Junior Cert (and certainly wouldn't make me believe anyone should be forced to) but I'd agree that this sort of change to the curriculum would probably help the ability of those learning it to actually have an ability to speak the Irish at the end of their studies and be of far more cultural importance than Peig Seyers, Dunmharu Ar An Dart or the poetry of Padraig O Connaile...

fontanalis

Sleepy wrote: »

And none of the image problem is down to it being forced upon students who are trying to get the best Leaving Cert they possibly can?


I'd agree with this point, I had a good Irish teacher for 6 months of my 14 years of education and he used to take two classes out of the five he had us for each week to teach us Irish folklore and the history of the language. It was way off curriculum but the most interesting lessons I had in the subject.

It still wouldn't have made me want to keep studying the subject beyond Junior Cert (and certainly wouldn't make me believe anyone should be forced to) but I'd agree that this sort of change to the curriculum would probably help the ability of those learning it to actually have an ability to speak the Irish at the end of their studies and be of far more cultural importance than Peig Seyers, Dunmharu Ar An Dart or the poetry of Padraig O Connaile...

I meant the initial image; there is something else to the hatred of it other than the teaching, which is awful.

caseyann

Sleepy wrote: »

LOL, I love how you ignored every argument against Irish being compulsory in my post, failed to post an argument as to why it should be compulsory and instead picked a hole in one sentence and then called me ignorant. You, sir, are a beacon to us all in the art of the debate.

Irish Dancing, Terrorism, Incest, Child Abuse, Mysogyny, Catholicism, Paganism and Alocholism are all parts of our history and culture too. Should they all be mandatory for Leaving Cert Students as well? I think you'd have quite a few irate parents to deal with were your logic to be applied here...

And they are taught in schools and by parent to parent and generation to generation are they?(Can you hear yourself even think?)
And alcoholism among the other things ridiculous things,you wrote as a description of culture,then all countries in world should abandon their culture all together and die:rolleyes:
You obviously don't know what culture is.And those so called terrorists weren't once and were not to Irish people up north who they stood up for.
The only terrorists in history of Ireland are the British who murdered our people language and self worth.
Comparing Irish language with the things you just did shows you are either self hater or loyalist and not Irish at all.
And to Irish dancing i think it would be good if taught in every school in Ireland not only healthy but also beautiful and again non nationals from other EU countries and USA and Australia who move here,encourage their kids to do it.
So whats your problem with Irish dancing now also.You really don't like Irish anything do you.

Bang them drums;)

aDeener

Sleepy wrote: »

LOL, I love how you ignored every argument against Irish being compulsory in my post, failed to post an argument as to why it should be compulsory and instead picked a hole in one sentence and then called me ignorant. You, sir, are a beacon to us all in the art of the debate.

Irish Dancing, Terrorism, Incest, Child Abuse, Mysogyny, Catholicism, Paganism and Alocholism are all parts of our history and culture too. Should they all be mandatory for Leaving Cert Students as well? I think you'd have quite a few irate parents to deal with were your logic to be applied here...

where did i say i would be arguing for irish being compulsory? :rolleyes: there are many very valid points for irish being optional, but what i quoted by you i took great exception to. ludicrous.

alcoholism/child abuse/terrorism part of our culture?? wtf are you on about? before i thought your previous little quote was the most retarded i have ever seen, you sir have now outdone yourself. your blue peter badge is in the post

caseyann

fontanalis wrote: »

I think it's because the language has a terrible image problem (association with poverty centuries ago and the need to learn english to emigrate) and it's actually not that attractive to listen to compared to Italian, French or Spanish.
Maybe if it was taught as part of overall irish culture it might help as the language seems to have a fascinating history and it's quite old.

It really doesn't that's just movie rubbish,how many different dialect is there in Irish?
Its the sewn in self hatred of Irish people by the english almost extinct like they wish we would have been back then.Up the north they were not allowed learn Irish.And we are given it on a plate.

You couldn't be more wrong all my friends from other countries ask me to teach them Irish all the time.They think its beautiful language and many a Polish eastern European etc.. i know are learning it from their kids at home and some actually taking classes.
I asked a few kids on my road today would you like Irish gone from school.And around fifteen of them all said no way.

aDeener

Sleepy wrote: »

And none of the image problem is down to it being forced upon students who are trying to get the best Leaving Cert they possibly can?


I'd agree with this point, I had a good Irish teacher for 6 months of my 14 years of education and he used to take two classes out of the five he had us for each week to teach us Irish folklore and the history of the language. It was way off curriculum but the most interesting lessons I had in the subject.

It still wouldn't have made me want to keep studying the subject beyond Junior Cert (and certainly wouldn't make me believe anyone should be forced to) but I'd agree that this sort of change to the curriculum would probably help the ability of those learning it to actually have an ability to speak the Irish at the end of their studies and be of far more cultural importance than Peig Seyers, Dunmharu Ar An Dart or the poetry of Padraig O Connaile...

i completely agree with this here, but as a matter of interest would you also apply this logic to the bull that is the poetry of sylvia plath, adrienne rich, ts eliot?

Ms.Forbes

bleg wrote: »

Irish was a crap subject, I hated it. For me it made no sense to do it. Wouldn't be a good idea to teach our kids a useful language like German, Spanish, Hindi or Chinese and have them truely trilingual.

Its the teacher not the sylabus... had a rubbish teacher up to junior cert and got an A in pass...but then made a decision to change to Higher Level for leaving cert.. the teacher i got was lovely cheerful and made it so enjoyable to learn... i was able to see it in a different light and i was able to manipulate it... got a B3 in Honors

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Ms.Forbes

Sleepy wrote: »

And none of the image problem is down to it being forced upon students who are trying to get the best Leaving Cert they possibly can?


I'd agree with this point, I had a good Irish teacher for 6 months of my 14 years of education and he used to take two classes out of the five he had us for each week to teach us Irish folklore and the history of the language. It was way off curriculum but the most interesting lessons I had in the subject.

It still wouldn't have made me want to keep studying the subject beyond Junior Cert (and certainly wouldn't make me believe anyone should be forced to) but I'd agree that this sort of change to the curriculum would probably help the ability of those learning it to actually have an ability to speak the Irish at the end of their studies and be of far more cultural importance than Peig Seyers, Dunmharu Ar An Dart or the poetry of Padraig O Connaile...

Higher level Irish for leaving cert is still a very doable subject and way easier than Maths or English

Once you learn it off you'll do well and most subjects for leaving cert are like that anyway its irrelevant whether you understand the Irish or not but once you learn it off word for word (including Peig Sayers - which came up today by the way!) you'll get the marks!

Everything that i studied came up today - delighted B3 i'd say

Nijmegen

Culture is different things to different people.

Forcing students to spend time on a subject they do not enjoy, learning a language they do not see utility in, at a time when they're under immense pressure to perform literally in a points scoring exercise, is not likely to endear the vast majority of them to learn and love the Irish language.

(Almost) 100% of us did Irish. We have a 99% literacy rate in Ireland. Yet, as donegalfella points out, we have 3% of the population speaking Irish on anything like a semi regular basis. So you might say we have, for all that effort, a 3% conversion rate versus 99% for the teaching of English.

Not good.

The argument is several fold: It's something people don't want to learn, it's something that's not useful to them, and it's something that should be optional for those that do want to learn it and love it. Let that be your litmus test.

Iwasfrozen

Ms.Forbes wrote: »

Higher level Irish for leaving cert is still a very doable subject and way easier than Maths or English

You must be joking. Maths is the easiest subject in school after Biology and you are calling it harder then H.L Irish? If you are bad at Maths fine but don't make up rubbish to support Irish.

Ms.Forbes wrote: »

Once you learn it off you'll do well and most subjects for leaving cert are like that anyway its irrelevant whether you understand the Irish or not but once you learn it off word for word (including Peig Sayers - which came up today by the way!) you'll get the marks!

How is that relevent to the language?
1.)One shouldn't be learning anything off.
2.)The aim is to have people speak Irish, literature is useless.

Ms.Forbes wrote: »

Everything that i studied came up today - delighted B3 i'd say

Same here, but I'm doing O.L and that's beside the point.

MysticalRain

Perhaps the pro-Irish nationalist crowd here should take some lessons from the Taliban. Forcing your view of the world down the throats of other people whether they like it or not doesn't always achieve the intended goal. In most cases, it just results in a severe backlash.

I just love this holier than thou attitude that somehow I am "less Irish" just because I can't speak a bastardized version of a long dead language.

caseyann

If kids could avoid all subjects in school they would,no child has any clue whats good for them.
And the small few anti Irish language people here make no odds in real world.
Remember this you have no right what so ever to make a judgement on what every other persons child learns in school.And i say again when your child born,why not opt out for Irish in beginning of school year and let your child go to a different class or simply doodle in class while Irish is been taught,and don't send your kids to Irish schools either.There problem solved;)
We who do love our language are not forcing you who don't see it as important to learn it or to make your kids learn it.
But don't you think for one second my kids or my families kids or my friends kids who do want to learn Irish and keep it alive are going to let yous eradicate from Irish schools.:mad:As yous are in minority and should move to Britain:rolleyes:
Stripping away Irish identity bit by bit.:(

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

Perhaps the pro-Irish nationalist crowd here should take some lessons from the Taliban. Forcing your view of the world down the throats of other people whether they like it or not doesn't always achieve the intended goal. In most cases, it just results in a severe backlash.

I just love this holier than thou attitude that somehow I am "less Irish" just because I can't speak a bastardized version of a long dead language.

Not if you attempted to learn it and couldn't as some people do find it very hard especially if they went to all speaking English schools.But to have contempt for it,and be trying to say its not apart of our culture and calling it bastardized version of a long dead language then you are not Irish

caseyann

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You must be joking. Maths is the easiest subject in school after Biology and you are calling it harder then H.L Irish? If you are bad at Maths fine but don't make up rubbish to support Irish.


How is that relevent to the language?
1.)One shouldn't be learning anything off.
2.)The aim is to have people speak Irish, literature is useless.

Same here, but I'm doing O.L and that's beside the point.

I call for no syllabus of higher or lower maths to be enforced and for maths to be a subject of choice.I hated maths in school.Not apart of our culture is it.Or wait let me think English history and English lit and poems or other countries history.I wont use that in future neither will my kids so why should they learn it and why did i.:rolleyes: Or art history appreciation lets scrap the lot.

MysticalRain

caseyann wrote: »

Not if you attempted to learn it and couldn't as some people do find it very hard especially if they went to all speaking English schools.But to have contempt for it,and be trying to say its not apart of our culture and calling it bastardized version of a long dead language then you are not Irish

You need only count the number of English words that have been shoehorned into Gaelic versions to realize just how diluted the language has become.

I have to laugh at the childish smear that I'm "not Irish" just because I don't speak the language. 90% of the people living on this island must be foreigners by your standard. Most of us don't wear arran sweaters anymore, or worship the Catholic Church or spend our weekends running around dressed up in balaclavas fantasizing about murdering our English neighbours. That doesn't make us any less Irish than cultural puritans such as yourself.