The Frontline on compulsory Irish

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

You need only count the number of English words that have been shoehorned into Gaelic versions to realize just how diluted the language has become.

I have to laugh at the childish smear that I'm "not Irish" just because I don't speak the language. 90% of the people living on this island must be foreigners by your standard. Most of us don't wear arran sweaters anymore, or worship the Catholic Church or spend our weekends running around dressed up in balaclavas fantasizing about murdering our English neighbours. That doesn't make us any less Irish than cultural puritans such as yourself.

Irish has nothing to do with IRA ( i just love how people keep dragging these things up as if apart of culture:rolleyes:)It wasn't a childish sneer it was an honest opinion.If you attempted Irish and can not have a conversation in Irish then at least you attempted it.Then fair play to you.Trying to say it should be taken out of Irish schools and has no meaning or need that would make you not Irish.Oh wait a second Irish speaking people are terrorists and murders of Our neighbours.You are loving the language which oppressed our country and people and murdered for how long before any Irish person lifted arms?
And sorry for you non nationals appreciate our language more than you which would make them more Irish.
I run around in a balaclava do i? And go to Church every week?So church originated in Ireland did it? Is that all you believe been Irish is and Irish language is apart of that? Catholic Religion is personal choice not Cultural and i don't have to go to church to believe in it.

Can i ask you something what age group do you fall in?

Iwasfrozen

caseyann wrote: »

I call for no syllabus of higher or lower maths to be enforced and for maths to be a subject of choice.I hated maths in school.

Maths the father science and the science from which all other sciences came. It is needed to have even a faintest grasp of the worls that we live in and out physical realm.

What is more Maths is not forced onto us with some dead-nationalistic ideal.

I was waiting for this arguement to come up. Always does. However wishy-washy and doesn't hold any sway with me.

caseyann wrote: »

Not apart of our culture is it.

No it isn't, but a subject does not need to be part of our culture to be mandatory.

caseyann wrote: »

Or wait let me think English history and English lit and poems or other countries history.

History of other countries is more important then the history of Ireland.

caseyann wrote: »

wont use that in future neither will my kids so why should they learn it and why did i.

It's fine if you don't want to read any poetry or books in your life. Go around like an ignorant pig for all I care. Just don't comdem your children to the same choices as you. You aren't qualified to speak for them.

caseyann wrote: »

Or art history appreciation lets scrap the lot.

People may choose to do art history. One may not choose to do Irish.

MysticalRain

The only terrorists in history of Ireland are the British who murdered our people language and self worth.

Irish has nothing to do with IRA ( i just love how people keep dragging these things up as if apart of culture)It wasnt a childish snear it was an honest opinion

As long as you keep up your nationalistic anti-British attitude, I'll keep drawing parallels with the IRA and Sinn Fein.

If you attempted Irish and can not have a conversation in Irish then at least you attempted it.Then fair play to you.

Generations of Irish people have spent virtually all of their school years attempting to learn Irish. Don't try to blame us just because the system is an utter failure.

Trying to say it should be taken out of Irish schools and has no meaning or need that would make you not Irish.

I don't think anybody here is arguing that Irish should be "banned from the curriculum". All people ask is for it to be made optional. If somebody with an appreciation of Irish culture wants to learn Irish, they can choose to do so. If they want to learn more practical languages which are likely to get them a job, then they can learn French, German or Chinese.

And sorry for you non nationals appreciate our language more than you which would make them more Irish.

I seriously doubt that the average Polish plumber or Chinese student has any real interest in Irish. If not, then please back up your assertion with some kind of statistics.

And go to Church every week?So church orignated in Ireland did it? Is that all you believe been Irish is and Irish langauge is apart of that? Catholic Religion is personal choice not Cultural and i dont have to go to church to believe in it.

As any Irish person with a grasp of Irish history would already know, the Catholic church was ingrained in Irish culture and history. In many ways it still is. And just like going to church is a personal choice, so is learning Irish. Of course the concept of "choice" tends to go right over the head of the more militant elements of the pro-Irish crowd.

Can i ask you something what age group do you fall in?

Thirtysomething. I was lucky enough not to have endured Peig Sayers.

sceptre

Mutual politeness isn't optional on this board, including this thread, guys. It's one of those compulsory things. Kindly take careful note.

/mod

Iwasfrozen

caseyann wrote: »

If kids could avoid all subjects in school they would,no child has any clue whats good for them.

I am no child at the age of eighteen yet I was still forced to learn the language.

caseyann wrote: »

And the small few anti Irish language people here make no odds in real world.

I'm sorry to tell you but mandatory Irish was made our numbers swell hugely. I even dare say there are more people in Ireland who hate the language with a passion then gealgeoirs.

caseyann wrote: »

Remember this you have no right what so ever to make a judgement on what every other persons child learns in school.

Couldn't have said it better myself. So why are you in favour of mandatory Irish?

caseyann wrote: »

And i say again when your child born,why not opt out for Irish in beginning of school year and let your child go to a different class or simply doodle in class while Irish is been taught,and don't send your kids to Irish schools either.

Because then your child will be left out. Also it is better to try and change things from the inside politically then from the bottom down. As the years go on more and more people will turn away from Irish and take their children with them. Finally after god knows how many years Irish children will not be force fed some dead language that has long gone the way of Latin or Aramic

caseyann wrote: »

We who do love our language are not forcing you who don't see it as important to learn it or to make your kids learn it.

Yes you are, by making it mandatory in school.

caseyann wrote: »

But don't you think for one second my kids or my families kids or my friends kids who do want to learn Irish and keep it alive are going to let yous eradicate from Irish schools.:mad:

I'm sorry to tell you but the death of the language you love is not recent. It has been happening for the last couple of hundred years. And neither you nor your families kids are going to turn the language shift of six hundred years.

caseyann wrote: »

As yous are in minority and should move to Britain:rolleyes:

Again, we aren't. I'm sorry to tell you but Irish speakers are in the minority. There are proberbly more people who hate the language due to the compulsion to learn it then those who actually love it.

caseyann wrote: »

Stripping away Irish identity bit by bit.:(

Even if that was a bad thing it is definitely not a recent thing. But maybe that hasn't reached you yet in wherever-the-hell-you-live. Don't worry I think the stone age has just reached Connemara.

caseyann

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

History of other countries is more important then the history of Ireland.


.

That was all i needed to read and wont be replying to your posts again:)

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

As long as you keep up your nationalistic anti-British attitude, I'll keep drawing parallels with the IRA and Sinn Fein.


Generations of Irish people have spent virtually all of their school years attempting to learn Irish. Don't try to blame us just because the system is an utter failure.



I don't think anybody here is arguing that Irish should be "banned from the curriculum". All people ask is for it to be made optional. If somebody with an appreciation of Irish culture wants to learn Irish, they can choose to do so. If they want to learn more practical languages which are likely to get them a job, then they can learn French, German or Chinese.


I seriously doubt that the average Polish plumber or Chinese student has any real interest in Irish. If not, then please back up your assertion with some kind of statistics.


As any Irish person with a grasp of Irish history would already know, the Catholic church was ingrained in Irish culture and history. In many ways it still is. And just like going to church is a personal choice, so is learning Irish. Of course the concept of "choice" tends to go right over the head of the more militant elements of the pro-Irish crowd.


Thirtysomething. I was lucky enough not to have endured Peig Sayers.

Difference in my anti british sentiment you seem to be missing out on its is the past history i am referring to.

You would be surprised how many polish and eastern europeans who are learning Irish

Iwasfrozen

caseyann wrote: »

That was all i needed to read and wont be replying to your posts again:)

Fine by me, though before you let the door hit you on the way out you should know that by that I ment the history of other countries is more important because it influenced Irish history.

MysticalRain

caseyann wrote: »

Difference in my anti british sentiment you seem to be missing out on its is the past history i am referring to.

You would be surprised how many polish and eastern europeans who are learning Irish

That statement is entirely meaningless unless you can back it up with facts and figures. That would seem an obvious point to somebody like me who spent more time studying science and maths than Irish.

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

That statement is entirely meaningless unless you can back it up with facts and figures. That would seem an obvious point to somebody like me who spent more time studying science and maths than Irish.

Well that's good you attempted Irish but couldn't get to grips with it.Did you go to a all English school? And only have Irish as a subject? This is where there is a huge mistake in the educational system.
How can i back it with figures,these are people i know whos kids are learning Irish and encouraged to on top of telling me they are to themselves studying Irish for their own interest and love of language among Irish history and lit.But they dont complain that their kids have to learn a language of another nation.I wouldnt mind the kids who are older as it is hard to catch up on in school for them.But out of sense of respect and wanting to become of Irish culture they let their kids learn Irish.

MysticalRain

caseyann wrote: »

Well that's good you attempted Irish but couldn't get to grips with it.Did you go to a all English school? And only have Irish as a subject? This is where there is a huge mistake in the educational system.
How can i back it with figures,these are people i know whos kids are learning Irish and encouraged to on top of telling me they are to themselves studying Irish for their own interest and love of language among Irish history and lit.But they dont complain that their kids have to learn a language of another nation.I wouldnt mine the kids who are older as it is hard to catch up on in school for them.But out of sense of respect and wanting to become of Irish culture they let their kids learn Irish.

Yes, I went to an all English school, along with 95% of the rest of the country. Turning every school in the country into a Gaelscoil is totally impractical . The standard of teachers simply isn't up to task. It would cost extra money that we don't have. It would complicate the teaching of technical subjects and make it more difficult to educate non-nationals.

As an aside, I think we need to be focusing on attracting non-nationals into the teaching profession in this country seeing as how we don't have enough qualified math and science teachers. The requirement for teachers to learn, and teach Irish is yet another obstacle that ever happening.

It doesn't matter how many "people you know" are learning Irish, anecdotal evidence is not scientific proof. Forcing the children of non-nationals born here to learn Irish will probably have about the same level of miserable success as it did with the native population.

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

Yes, I went to an all English school, along with 95% of the rest of the country. Turning every school in the country into a Gaelscoil is totally impractical . The standard of teachers simply isn't up to task. It would cost extra money that we don't have. It would complicate the teaching of technical subjects and make it more difficult to educate non-nationals.

As an aside, I think we need to be focusing on attracting non-nationals into the teaching profession in this country seeing as how we don't have enough qualified math and science teachers. The requirement for teachers to learn, and teach Irish is yet another obstacle that ever happening.

It doesn't matter how many "people you know" are learning Irish, anecdotal evidence is not scientific proof. Forcing the children of non-nationals born here to learn Irish will probably have about the same level of miserable success as it did with the native population.

Why on earth would Irish kids have to lose out on their Irish language heritage to make it easier for non nationals?
Lets see you do that in Poland or any other country when large influx of Irish go there, they would tell you where to go.
Just thank god it wont happen.

MysticalRain

I might also add that the education system in this country needs to be devote a lot less time to subjects like Irish and religion and more time on the "knowledge economy" subjects like maths, science, and computers.

Ironically enough, back when the British were in charge of this island, Irish schoolchildren actually spent a lot more time studying scientific subjects. Of course that all changed in 1938 when the de Valera changed the curriculum to make it a lot more nationalistic and religious by devoting extra time to Irish and religion. We have been paying the price for that shortsighted vision ever since.

MysticalRain

caseyann wrote: »

Why on earth would Irish kids have to lose out on their Irish language heritage to make it easier for non nationals?
Lets see you do that in Poland or any other country when large influx of Irish go there, they would tell you where to go.
Just thank god it wont happen.

Because we're living in 21st-century Europe that's why. Not 1950s Ireland. Besides, Irish kids can have all the Irish heritage they want if Irish is made optional. I think you'll find people actually appreciate their heritage a lot more when it's not shoved down their throats by a bunch of fascist-minded bigots.

You're comparing apples with oranges anyway in the case of Poland because most Poles actually do speak their native language fluently. That's obviously not the case over here with the Irish.

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

Because we're living in 21st-century Europe that's why. Not 1950s Ireland. Besides, Irish kids can have all the Irish heritage they want if Irish is made optional. I think you'll find people actually appreciate their heritage a lot more when it's not shoved down their throats by a bunch of fascist-minded bigots.

You're comparing apples with oranges anyway in the case of Poland because most Poles actually do speak their native language fluently. That's obviously not the case over here with the Irish.

Sorry you are living in 21st century EU.I like 21st century Ireland.I don't see any other country changing their ways or school curriculum in favour of their non nationals.And no way in hell they will to fit in the EU and not expected to either.
Funny how you see it as fascist bigots who are trying to keep apart of our heritage alive.I never felt like it was rammed down my throat as i wanted apart of it and best way to get it was in school and most kids dont like school at all.

MysticalRain

Sorry you are living in 21st century EU.I like 21st century Ireland.I don't see any other country changing their ways or school curriculum in favour of their non nationals.And no way in hell they will to fit in the EU and not expected to either.

It might be news to you, but other countries do modify their education systems to accommodate the needs of non-nationals. The prime example of that is across the water in the UK.

Strictly speaking, were not actually talking about changing much. Just keeping things mostly the way they are, but making Irish optional. You're the one who is advocating a wholesale change of the Irish education system by turning every school into the Gaelscoil.

Funny how you see it as fascist bigots who are trying to keep apart of our heritage alive.I never felt like it was rammed down my throat as i wanted apart of it and best way to get it was in school.

Most Irish schoolkids would disagree with you there. If that weren't the case, then most kids wouldn't be clamoring to drop honours Irish at the first available opportunity.

I'm sure you'll deny this, and no doubt the point will fly straight over your head, but forcing Irish down the throats of generations of Irish schoolkids has done more to damage Irish culture and heritage than anything else in the last hundred years. That is the punchline in this whole joke of an "education" system we have in this country.

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

It might be news to you, but other countries do modify their education systems to accommodate the needs of non-nationals. The prime example of that is across the water in the UK.

Strictly speaking, were not actually talking about changing much. Just keeping things mostly the way they are, but making Irish optional. You're the one who is advocating a wholesale change of the Irish education system by turning every school into the Gaelscoil.


Most Irish schoolkids would disagree with you there. If that weren't the case, then most kids wouldn't be clamoring to drop honours Irish at the first available opportunity.

I'm sure you'll deny this, and no doubt the point will fly straight over your head, but forcing Irish down the throats of generations of Irish schoolkids has done more to damage Irish culture and heritage than anything else in the last hundred years. That is the punchline in this whole joke of an "education" system we have in this country.

No they don't teach Arabic or any other language in schools for non nationals and they must learn English.
Religion is optional for them already and it is for all kids of Ireland and their families.You don't have to be christened if you dont want to but guess what parents still do it and then complain about it been in school.Give me a break.

I never said they didn't,thats the problem with schools and teachers.As i said few pages back against dropping it from schools,and i wasn't against it been optional in school And kids who didn't want to learn Irish let them go do something else.(If you had of taken time to read what i said).

Noreen1

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because then your child will be left out. Also it is better to try and change things from the inside politically then from the bottom down. As the years go on more and more people will turn away from Irish and take their children with them. Finally after god knows how many years Irish children will not be force fed some dead language that has long gone the way of Latin or Aramic

That sounds as if you are longing for the destruction of the language - yet people who like the Irish language are accused of being fanatical!:eek:

Seriously, posts like this make me seriously question the motives of those who seek to make Irish "optional". Whereas I acknowledge that the anti-Gaeilge camp does contain some moderates (as, indeed, does the pro-Gaeilge camp), I have yet to meet anyone who can ensure that Students who wish to study Irish, will be permitted to do so, without having to sacrifice learning a European language as well?

Noreen

sceptre

caseyann wrote: »

I said the anti Irish language sentiment was un Irish.And i am entitled to think that whether anyone likes it or not.

Ignoring whether being anti-compulsory-in-secondary-schools Irish language is anti-Irish language or not for a moment (as more than once person has stated why they believe it would benefit the language, which as it happens has gone unaddressed), what the deuce is "un Irish"? I'm assuming it's something more than "not Irish".

MysticalRain

caseyann wrote: »

No they don't teach Arabic or any other language in schools for non nationals and they must learn English.
Religion is optional for them already and it is for all kids of Ireland and their families.You don't have to be christened if you dont want to but guess what parents still do it and then complain about it been in school.Give me a break.

I never said they didn't,thats the problem with schools and teachers.As i said few pages back against dropping it from schools,and i wasn't against it been optional in school And kids who didn't want to learn Irish let them go do something else.(If you had of taken time to read what i said).

The key point is they must learn the native spoken language of the country, which in our case is English. Forcing them to learn Irish, along with English, makes their education one step harder.

I'm glad you're open to the idea of making Irish optional. I think that would actually be good for the language in the long run.

caseyann

sceptre wrote: »

Ignoring whether being anti-compulsory-in-secondary-schools Irish language is anti-Irish language or not for a moment (as more than once person has stated why they believe it would benefit the language), what the deuce is "un Irish"? I'm assuming it's something more than "not Irish".

No its meaning children do not want to learn when they are young unless forced to with all subjects,later on in life then they can choose for themselves.
I dont agree with the pressure of the exams.As stated once alot of student who are very bright fail in exams with all sorts of subjects.
The un Irish meaning people who really want Irish out of schools all together.After it almost been eradicated already.I want it in schools as does all my family and friends who are only to proud to have their kids to learn their language.
Other people who dont want to should at least try if you fail so what at least attempted.But no kid of four or five or six or seven up to at least 11 or 12 is going to have the right mindset to want to learn something they arent forced to,Learning Irish as not in every day use is a gift for Irish kids and for other nationalites that should be nutured and protected.
I find it very un Irish when someone is saying should be removed and of no use at all.Not how our ancestors felt hiding and speaking it and keeping it alive.

sceptre

caseyann wrote: »

The un Irish meaning people who really want Irish out of schools all together.

I'm not sure anyone's put forward a rational case here on this thread or anywhere else about wanting it "out of schools". Red herring. Let's move on. I'm afraid I didn't see the relevance of most of the rest of your post to the question so I haven't addressed it.

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

The key point is they must learn the native spoken language of the country, which in our case is English. Forcing them to learn Irish, along with English, makes their education one step harder.

I'm glad you're open to the idea of making Irish optional. I think that would actually be good for the language in the long run.

As i pointed out they do not have to learn Irish,non nationals are given option to opt out of Irish and religion if they want to.I worked with lovely kids from somalia,they joined the school back in 97 and it was first schooling for them.They learn Irish and were given option to not do it.But parents wanted them to.Alot dont opt out.
Well ofc i am i worked in schools with kids who struggled with Irish terrible.And dont like pressure of Irish on someone who has struggles with it already and then worry about exams on top of it.

aDeener

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

you havent a clue do ya? gaelic games are the most popular in the country :rolleyes:

aDeener

also i love the rabblers here "awh sure we would be better off learning more, maths science, klingon etc..."

there is more than enough time for students to excel at these subjects. stop trying to make irish a scapegoat as a reason for students failures in these subjects.

Butch Cassidy

I'm puzzled as to how Irish as a compulsory subject in schools is a political issue. Sure it's a current affairs issue and it's a serious one worth discussing and it's definitely an issue worth discussing for people who like Irish or are learning it like in the Irish language forum and the education forums but I can't see how it is politcal.

Making it into a political issue however is very "Irish". There's many points to be earned - not LC points! - to talk about how it's a disgrace and a waste of money etc. etc. about forcing people who don't want to do a subject to learn it.

Stark

aDeener wrote: »

you havent a clue do ya? gaelic games are the most popular in the country :rolleyes:

It's alien to me as a born and bred Irish person and that was the point he was making. Not every Irish person embraces every traditional aspect of Irish culture.

MysticalRain

aDeener wrote: »

also i love the rabblers here "awh sure we would be better off learning more, maths science, klingon etc..."

there is more than enough time for students to excel at these subjects. stop trying to make irish a scapegoat as a reason for students failures in these subjects.

That's obviously not the case if employers like Intel and HP are telling us that Irish students are not excelling in math and science. So something is going wrong somewhere.

You wouldn't happen to be a teacher, would you? I'm beginning to wonder if the single biggest obstacle to improving the Irish education system are teachers.

sensibleken

MysticalRain wrote: »

Perhaps the pro-Irish nationalist crowd here should take some lessons from the Taliban. Forcing your view of the world down the throats of other people whether they like it or not doesn't always achieve the intended goal. In most cases, it just results in a severe backlash.

I just love this holier than thou attitude that somehow I am "less Irish" just because I can't speak a bastardized version of a long dead language.

ok. this debate has just gotten really stupid. Taliban? seriously?

BluePlanet

Originally Posted by MysticalRain
Perhaps the pro-Irish nationalist crowd here should take some lessons from the Taliban. Forcing your view of the world down the throats of other people whether they like it or not doesn't always achieve the intended goal. In most cases, it just results in a severe backlash.

Bizarre.
And what "severe backlash" did the Taliban experience?
NATO?
US bombing?
They haven't gone away you know.