The Frontline on compulsory Irish

Permabear

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Sleepy

Has anyone got an argument for it remaining compulsory?

I still haven't seen one from the "your kids will study it because I like it and if they don't I won't consider them to be a "real" Irish person" camp...

Macha

Sleepy wrote: »

Has anyone got an argument for it remaining compulsory?

I still haven't seen one from the "your kids will study it because I like it and if they don't I won't consider them to be a "real" Irish person" camp...

Well...as an official language of the EU, a good level of fluency in Irish can help Irish people find jobs in the EU Institutions.

In order to apply through EPSO, you have to have fluent English, French or German plus another official language.

That isn't an argument for making it compulsory, just an argument for keeping it as an option. Although, given the difficulty in learning Irish versus other languages, I would prefer to have it compulsory in primary school.

Sleepy

I completely mis-read that post at first, I thought you were arguing that it should remain compulsory due to it being a difficult language to learn and an EU language!

The "official language" of the EU was an awful move for Ireland imho. For no tangible benefits we now have to waste both Irish and EU money translating documents that will never be read in Irish into that language. Keeping a few people in jobs which shouldn't exist in the real world isn't a good enough excuse for this wasteage imho.

Permabear

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Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, it's to help Irish people find jobs in the European Institutions, which is important if we are going to play a significant role at the European Level.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Er..no that's not what all Gaelic speakers who work in the EU institutions do.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Now you're just going off an a tangent. I'm not talking about whether Irish should be an official language of the EU, I'm talking about the advantages given the current situation.

Permabear

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aDeener

MysticalRain wrote: »

That's obviously not the case if employers like Intel and HP are telling us that Irish students are not excelling in math and science. So something is going wrong somewhere.

You wouldn't happen to be a teacher, would you? I'm beginning to wonder if the single biggest obstacle to improving the Irish education system are teachers.

yeah but just because they are doing irish, is not the reason they are not excelling in maths and science. its a combination of lazy students and lazy teachers looking for an excuse for their own shortcomings. also the curriculum's of maths and science may also need to be looked at.

no i am not a teacher, i couldnt be further removed from one, that should be fairly evident from the above.

Stark wrote: »

It's alien to me as a born and bred Irish person and that was the point he was making. Not every Irish person embraces every traditional aspect of Irish culture.

he said "to many people" which is friggin bull. i bet you have a fair idea of the rules of gaelic games, i bet you also know where GAA HQ is? you couldnt possibly not know this, its everywhere. and if not you are very very rare. it was a ridiculously stupid statement to make about the games which are the most popular in this country - why can't you just admit that?

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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I totally agree about having other languages but I do feel that Irish is more difficult to learn than many other languages and there is no harm in giving kids a few hours a week of Irish so that they have a fundamental grasp, should they want to continue on with it.

I do consider arguments other than purely economic ones.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I probably couldn't win that argument with you so I wasn't even going to go there..

LordSutch

As a parent I am really annoyed that my little son will spend the next fourteen years spending hundreds & hundreds of hours (wasted) being taught something neither he nor his parents want him to learn! and I say this in the context of the current teaching arrangements, whereby children have the current Irish curriculum force fed without results. If Irish was taught in a modern fashion ala 'French' then I would be 100% behind my little one learning & embracing the language & being able to speak it fluently, sadly we all know that this will not be the case in 95% of school leavers, which poses deep & serious questions bout the teaching itself.

Macha

Camelot wrote: »

If Irish was taught in a modern fashion ala 'French' then I would be 100% behind my little one learning & embracing the language & being able to speak it fluently, sadly we all know that this will not be the case in 95% of school leavers, which poses deep & serious questions bout the teaching itself.

This is very true. I was taught a few European languages (including a dead one) and by far I found Irish classes the most difficult and off-putting.

aDeener

taconnol wrote: »

This is very true. I was taught a few European languages (including a dead one) and by far I found Irish classes the most difficult and off-putting.

i find that very hard to believe, Irish has only 11 irregular verbs whereas the likes of french has 100's. if you just don't like the language or find that you will have no use for it just say so. but to say that it is difficult either doesn't say a lot for you or you are just fibbing for the sake of your dislike of irish

Fuhrer

aDeener wrote: »

i find that very hard to believe, Irish has only 11 irregular verbs whereas the likes of french has 100's. if you just don't like the language or find that you will have no use for it just say so. but to say that it is difficult either doesn't say a lot for you or you are just fibbing for the sake of your dislike of irish

He wasn't complaining about the structure of the language but the method in which it was taught.

Macha

aDeener wrote: »

i find that very hard to believe, Irish has only 11 irregular verbs whereas the likes of french has 100's. if you just don't like the language or find that you will have no use for it just say so. but to say that it is difficult either doesn't say a lot for you or you are just fibbing for the sake of your dislike of irish

There's no need to accuse me of lying - I have constructed sentences with ablative absolutes, motion towards plus accusative, have declined nouns and conjugated verbs til I'm blue in the face.

But I didn't even know there was a genitive case in the Irish language until a friend told me in college.

Edit: Ahem, she

LordSutch

aDeener wrote: »

i find that very hard to believe, Irish has only 11 irregular verbs whereas the likes of french has 100's. if you just don't like the language or find that you will have no use for it just say so. but to say that it is difficult either doesn't say a lot for you or you are just fibbing for the sake of your dislike of irish

The amount of irregular verbs is irrelavent, because if people are not able to speak the language (after fourteen years of schooling) then whats the point ??? You are missing the 'elephant in the room', that elephant being the fact that very few Irish people can actually speak the language fluently, despite it bing compulsory in school.

Sleepy

aDeener, given the similarities between many of the Latin based European languages e.g. French, Spanish, Italian it's quite conceivable that someone learning a few of them would find each of them easier than a language that comes from a completely different root as lessons in each of the others would re-inforce the lessons in each other. For example, despite having never studied either, I've found it quite easy to interpret quite a lot of Spanish or Italian when on holidays in countries speaking those languages based on my studies of French.

who the fug

Why not keep it compulsory, Irish and RE are always good for a doss, and it makes it easier to spot the psychotic teachers

aDeener

taconnol wrote: »

There's no need to accuse me of lying - I have constructed sentences with ablative absolutes, motion towards plus accusative, have declined nouns and conjugated verbs til I'm blue in the face.

But I didn't even know there was a genitive case in the Irish language until a friend told me in college.

Edit: Ahem, she

apologies, sleepy's explanation would be true for your case. it is obviously the way it is taught

Camelot wrote: »

The amount of irregular verbs is irrelavent, because if people are not able to speak the language (after fourteen years of schooling) then whats the point ??? You are missing the 'elephant in the room', that elephant being the fact that very few Irish people can actually speak the language fluently, despite it bing compulsory in school.

it is very relevant, if you only have to learn how to do 11 differently and can construct the others using the same method that makes a lot much simpler than having to to know hundreds.
im not missing any white elephant as i know that people are not able to speak it fluently. theoretically it should not be that difficult to speak it fluently. it is not being taught properly, more emphasis on the actual speech of the language is required. if this was done i have no doubt peoples standards of irish would increase dramatically.
as it stands people are learning irish and its grammar through reading. which just doesnt work - you dont get to know the words of a song by reading its lyrics

Sleepy wrote: »

aDeener, given the similarities between many of the Latin based European languages e.g. French, Spanish, Italian it's quite conceivable that someone learning a few of them would find each of them easier than a language that comes from a completely different root as lessons in each of the others would re-inforce the lessons in each other. For example, despite having never studied either, I've found it quite easy to interpret quite a lot of Spanish or Italian when on holidays in countries speaking those languages based on my studies of French.

fair point.

caseyann

Camelot wrote: »

As a parent I am really annoyed that my little son will spend the next fourteen years spending hundreds & hundreds of hours (wasted) being taught something neither he nor his parents want him to learn! and I say this in the context of the current teaching arrangements, whereby children have the current Irish curriculum force fed without results. If Irish was taught in a modern fashion ala 'French' then I would be 100% behind my little one learning & embracing the language & being able to speak it fluently, sadly we all know that this will not be the case in 95% of school leavers, which poses deep & serious questions bout the teaching itself.

Are you talking about Irish now? A waste of time to learn his home language by rights he should not have had to learn in school but lived a spoke through it all his life?
I said it and i will say it again you can put forward your letter to exclude him from Irish.It is not forced upon you or your child.So why is everybody still whinging.Once you make it clear you don't want your child learning Irish from the begining they will allow you to opt out of it.
They are hardly going to tell you you have to make him learn it.Its freedom of choice.

caseyann

aDeener wrote: »

it is very relevant, if you only have to learn how to do 11 differently and can construct the others using the same method that makes a lot much simpler than having to to know hundreds.
im not missing any white elephant as i know that people are not able to speak it fluently. theoretically it should not be that difficult to speak it fluently. it is not being taught properly, more emphasis on the actual speech of the language is required. if this was done i have no doubt peoples standards of irish would increase dramatically.
as it stands people are learning irish and its grammar through reading. which just doesnt work - you dont get to know the words of a song by reading its lyrics

I agree with you,I was taught maths Geography history etc... through Irish all day every day.Spoke Irish all day every day in school and the teacher spoke only Irish.Sometimes i forgot how to speak English lol
In English speaking primary schools not enough time applied to Irish then some of the kids don't pick it up or enjoy it.And then they are given more Irish classes and haven't even really got basics in Irish.
That doesn't make sense to throw kids who barely use it or barely used in school,Some of them are still at a 10 year old level in Irish when they get to third year.

And someone said Irish is harder then other languages.Funny how non nationals can pick it up and keep their own language along with English.

MungoMan

who the fug wrote: »

Why not keep it compulsory, Irish and RE are always good for a doss, and it makes it easier to spot the psychotic teachers

I think the Irish language should be like Irish music, Irish dancing, and religion
.
People who want it should have it, and people who don't want it shouldn't have to learn it. Clearly it's no disadvantage to live in Ireland without Irish, as so few people speak it fluently.

Let me tell you how much I hate Irish (this is my personal view).
When my children were old enough to go to school, my wife and I decided to take jobs in England, because we didn't want our children to be forced to learn Irish.

Extreme I know, but I really wish it was an optional subject

Sleepy

Freedom of choice? Whinging?

If a parent elects to have their child held out of Irish lessons, they face all the following:

1. No other lessons provided at this time in the timetable.

2. Failure to matriculate for most of the Universities who maintain a pass in Irish as an entry-requirement.

3. Having to base their CAO application on six subjects instead of seven (though this is already a reality for many students 'studying' Irish who drop to pass in order to waste as little of their time as possible on the subject).

4. As far as I'm aware, one cannot 'choose' to opt out of Irish for the Leaving Cert unless one is granted an exemption based on having lived outside of the country for their early education, merely to not attend the exam. As such, they're not opting out of it, they're judged to have FAILED their Leaving Cert based on the fact they haven't studied Irish.

If you honestly believe that Irish people would be best served by using Irish as our main spoken language in daily life then I'm afraid I don't even know how to discuss this with you... if Irish was our day-to-day language we'd have no IFSC, no FDI, far less Tourism, far less citizens capable of working professional jobs outside of Ireland, *huge* unemployment, next to no tax revenue available to provide public services etc. etc. etc. In short, we'd be a third world country.

P. Breathnach

aDeener wrote: »

i find that very hard to believe, Irish has only 11 irregular verbs whereas the likes of french has 100's. if you just don't like the language or find that you will have no use for it just say so. but to say that it is difficult either doesn't say a lot for you or you are just fibbing for the sake of your dislike of irish

Let's be fair: there are more challenges in Irish than mastering irregular verbs. Words have gender, and rules to go with the gender; we decline our nouns in five families, with some irregularity; we have rules for agreement of nouns and adjectives; the syntax is quite different from that of English, the first language of most who learn Irish as a second language.

As a compensation, it is the most orthographically-consistent of any of the languages of which I have any knowledge: if I see a word written down that I have never before encountered, I will know how to pronounce it (granted, my pronunciation might differ from that of speakers of a different dialect).

But I agree with your core contention: people use difficulty as an excuse. Much of the problem with teaching/learning Irish in schools is cultural.

I have not thought deeply about it, but I suspect that an entirely different approach, making explicit the challenges of syntax and the fundamental differences between languages, might help students appreciate the nature of what they are doing, and would also help build a foundation for language learning generally.

caseyann

Sleepy wrote: »

Freedom of choice? Whinging?

If a parent elects to have their child held out of Irish lessons, they face all the following:

1. No other lessons provided at this time in the timetable.

2. Failure to matriculate for most of the Universities who maintain a pass in Irish as an entry-requirement.

3. Having to base their CAO application on six subjects instead of seven (though this is already a reality for many students 'studying' Irish who drop to pass in order to waste as little of their time as possible on the subject).

4. As far as I'm aware, one cannot 'choose' to opt out of Irish for the Leaving Cert unless one is granted an exemption based on having lived outside of the country for their early education, merely to not attend the exam. As such, they're not opting out of it, they're judged to have FAILED their Leaving Cert based on the fact they haven't studied Irish.

If you honestly believe that Irish people would be best served by using Irish as our main spoken language in daily life then I'm afraid I don't even know how to discuss this with you... if Irish was our day-to-day language we'd have no IFSC, no FDI, far less Tourism, far less citizens capable of working professional jobs outside of Ireland, *huge* unemployment, next to no tax revenue available to provide public services etc. etc. etc. In short, we'd be a third world country.

Because no one in world goes to a country to work with a different language or have businesses in countries where they speak different languages to their own?
So loads of families up root their kids and themselves and head off to spain to work and live.They all speak fluent Spanish do they? And tourists dont go to countries where they speak a different language altogether?

Yes you can opt out on any ground you wish doesnt have to be you are from another country.What you think they,you say i dont want my kids learning Irish,they are going to say no?

No other subject at this time?then study or the class be created for those who are opting out of Irish.
Where do the kids from africa etc... go during Irish classes?

P.s the Necessity of Irish gaining a pass to get in to a college,unless it is needed should be abolished.
I wasnt aware it is needed in all colleges unless apart of the course.

Sleepy

caseyann wrote: »

Because no one in world goes to a country to work with a different language or have businesses in countries where they speak different languages to their own?
So loads of families up root their kids and themselves and head off to spain to work and live.They all speak fluent Spanish do they? And tourists dont go to countries where they speak a different language altogether?

Yes you can opt out on any ground you wish doesnt have to be you are from another country.What you think they,you say i dont want my kids learning Irish,they are going to say no?

No other subject at this time?then study or the class be created for those who are opting out of Irish.
Where do the kids from africa etc... go during Irish classes?

Read my last post again: the school may allow you to pull your kids from Irish class. The system will ensure you've screwed them by doing so.

You really need to look around you. Our country gained economic recovery from the 80's by having a young, cheap, English speaking, relatively well educated work-force, low levels of red-tape, a relatively similar culture and EU membership which made us an attractive place for American multi-nationals to base their European operations. Without any of these elements we wouldn't have been as attractive for FDI, wouldn't have developed a strong export-led growth and would have remained a country that exported labourers to building sites around the world.

True, some people are prepared to emmigrate to countries with different mother tongues than their own but the vast majority of Irish people emmigrating right now are going to Australia or Canada - English speaking countries where they can hope to gain decent employment. Getting any sort of work in a country where you can't speak the language fluently is difficult, getting a job commensurate with one's academic training and professional experience is next to impossible without fluency in the language of your host country - just look at all the Polish PHD's we had flipping burgers in McDonalds, stacking shelves in Supermarkets and labouring on building sites here during the 'boom'.

caseyann

Sleepy wrote: »

Read my last post again: the school may allow you to pull your kids from Irish class. The system will ensure you've screwed them by doing so.

You really need to look around you. Our country gained economic recovery from the 80's by having a young, cheap, English speaking, relatively well educated work-force, low levels of red-tape, a relatively similar culture and EU membership which made us an attractive place for American multi-nationals to base their European operations. Without any of these elements we wouldn't have been as attractive for FDI, wouldn't have developed a strong export-led growth and would have remained a country that exported labourers to building sites around the world.

True, some people are prepared to emmigrate to countries with different mother tongues than their own but the vast majority of Irish people emmigrating right now are going to Australia or Canada - English speaking countries where they can hope to gain decent employment. Getting any sort of work in a country where you can't speak the language fluently is difficult, getting a job commensurate with one's academic training and professional experience is next to impossible without fluency in the language of your host country - just look at all the Polish PHD's we had flipping burgers in McDonalds, stacking shelves in Supermarkets and labouring on building sites here during the 'boom'.

Because their education system is different to ours? And their English isn't up to scratch? Nothing to do with Irish been in our curriculum.
Same as i would expect someone Irish to learn the spoken language of the country to get a good job,and also be up to standard for the education system of Ireland.So now the EU is not any good for the Irish as they have to travel to English speaking countries to get a good job?
P.s i managed to pass my Irish and so do majority of my friends didnt impede on my work success or the economics of the country as you do know the people who were taught it over the last thirty years had Irish compulsory.
Same as your phd what ever wouldnt mean nothing in their countries.

And thats where it needs to be changed! As i said the necessity of a pass in Irish should not be needed to get into college,if Irish is not apart of your course.
Is this a new thing blame Irish language on the economy problems.

aDeener

Sleepy wrote: »

Freedom of choice? Whinging?

If a parent elects to have their child held out of Irish lessons, they face all the following:

1. No other lessons provided at this time in the timetable.

2. Failure to matriculate for most of the Universities who maintain a pass in Irish as an entry-requirement.

3. Having to base their CAO application on six subjects instead of seven (though this is already a reality for many students 'studying' Irish who drop to pass in order to waste as little of their time as possible on the subject).

4. As far as I'm aware, one cannot 'choose' to opt out of Irish for the Leaving Cert unless one is granted an exemption based on having lived outside of the country for their early education, merely to not attend the exam. As such, they're not opting out of it, they're judged to have FAILED their Leaving Cert based on the fact they haven't studied Irish.

If you honestly believe that Irish people would be best served by using Irish as our main spoken language in daily life then I'm afraid I don't even know how to discuss this with you... if Irish was our day-to-day language we'd have no IFSC, no FDI, far less Tourism, far less citizens capable of working professional jobs outside of Ireland, *huge* unemployment, next to no tax revenue available to provide public services etc. etc. etc. In short, we'd be a third world country.

3rd world country? like finland, sweden, norway, denmark? :rolleyes: come off it would ya, we would cope just fine. just becuase irish would be the day to day language does not mean we could not excel in english, german or what have ya. unbelievable statement

Sleepy

caseyann wrote: »

Because their education system is different to ours? And their English isn't up to scratch? Nothing to do with Irish been in our curriculum.
Same as i would expect someone Irish to learn the spoken language of the country to get a good job,and also be up to standard for the education system of Ireland.So now the EU is not any good for the Irish as they have to travel to English speaking countries to get a good job?
P.s i managed to pass my Irish and so do majority of my friends didnt impede on my work success or the economics of the country as you do know the people who were taught it over the last thirty years had Irish compulsory.
Same as your phd what ever wouldnt mean nothing in their countries.

And thats where it needs to be changed! As i said the necessity of a pass in Irish should not be needed to get into college,if Irish is not apart of your course.
Is this a new thing blame Irish language on the economy problems.

The scenario I posted was in response to your idiotic suggestion that Irish should be the language in daily use in this country. If Irish and English's relative positions as languages spoken in our country was reversed i.e. everyone had fluent Irish and we all had a 'few words' of English, a minority of us were capable of speaking it somewhat competently and a tiny minority were actually fluent in it.

If this were the case we'd have next to no decent jobs in this country and a population that was generally incapable of getting a decent job elsewhere.

So, since you've now agreed that:

Irish shouldn't be necessary to college matriculation
That parents should have the right to remove their children from Irish classes
Other subjects put on at the same time as Irish lessons

What part of compulsory Irish are you supporting again?

Sleepy

aDeener wrote: »

3rd world country? like finland, sweden, norway, denmark? :rolleyes: come off it would ya, we would cope just fine. just becuase irish would be the day to day language does not mean we could not excel in english, german or what have ya. unbelievable statement

Given that so much of the English vocabulary (or that of any other modern language) doesn't exist in Irish I'd imagine that mastering another language would be difficult for a population of native Irish speakers.

We don't have the natural resources of any of the other countries you mentioned. So there goes that revenue stream. Without which we couldn't have developed the world-beating technology sector they now have (through not being able to afford the education systems based on export of livestock, crops etc.). Even during our 'Tiger economy' years we didn't manage to improve education in the sciences and numbers of students studying honours Maths declined!

We only have a modern economy thanks to FDI. This wouldn't have happened were we native Irish speakers instead of native English speakers.

We're going off topic though: what's your argument in favour of mandatory Irish in schools?

caseyann

Sleepy wrote: »

The scenario I posted was in response to your idiotic suggestion that Irish should be the language in daily use in this country. If Irish and English's relative positions as languages spoken in our country was reversed i.e. everyone had fluent Irish and we all had a 'few words' of English, a minority of us were capable of speaking it somewhat competently and a tiny minority were actually fluent in it.

If this were the case we'd have next to no decent jobs in this country and a population that was generally incapable of getting a decent job elsewhere.

So, since you've now agreed that:

Irish shouldn't be necessary to college matriculation
That parents should have the right to remove their children from Irish classes
Other subjects put on at the same time as Irish lessons

What part of compulsory Irish are you supporting again?

It would be called learning it as second language like other nationalities do.

In primary schools should stay compulsory.No child is going to want to learn something they dont have to and wont even try.Pressure should be removed off them when going into first year for a placing in school.
And then decide.
Funny a load of my friends couldn't barely speak two words English,when they arrived in Ireland and are fluent now.
Same as they learn English they would just learn Irish and then also the English back up would be there.
So stop trying to make like Irish would be down fall of the country.
If you give a child an option to opt out of Irish learning at young age,they are not even going to try.