The Frontline on compulsory Irish

Macha

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Only if the language is related. Learning Irish did not help you pick up Norwegian. As for your logic argument again that doesn't apply to Irish because the word order is different.

No, I'm sorry but that is not true. Learning one language does help you learn others, even if they aren't similar in terms of grammar or vocabulary. As I said, it teaches you universal language learning skills.

I remember one of the tests I did in Latin was try to decipher a few sentences of a completely made-up language with just a few clues. I found the skills from my learning of other languages very useful.

Iwasfrozen

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

You saying you an irish citizen so????

Yes I am an Irish citizen. I was born and raised here. And Irish is not my native language.

taconnol wrote:

No, I'm sorry but that is not true. Learning one language does help you learn others, even if they aren't similar in terms of grammar or vocabulary. As I said, it teaches you universal language learning skills.

I remember one of the tests I did in Latin was try to decipher a few sentences of a completely made-up language with just a few clues. I found the skills from my learning of other languages very useful.

It is true. Learning one language does not help you learn another language unless the languages are related.

It simply doesn't. Forcing our children to a dead language learn Irish will not help then learn a usefull language like French or German.

However one thing that would help is scapping Irish from the curriculum and spening those forty two minutes extra a day learning the new language!

MonkeyMan.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes I am an Irish citizen. I was born and raised here. And Irish is not my native language.

If that's the case irish should be important to you

Iwasfrozen

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

If that's the case irish should be important to you

Why?

MonkeyMan.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why?

Well if you don't care about it, why are you bothered to go on this tread?

caseyann

Pace2008 wrote: »

There are millions of potentially interesting people with whom you could not engage in discourse if you didn't speak French or German.

I doubt the number of Irish-only speakers is in triple digits at this stage.

Says you :rolleyes:
I speak with non nationals every day,and i have pretty good aptitude in french from learning in school,Spanish from been there and learning off students when they came on exchanges among other languages,and you know what they ask me to do teach them Irish.
I can basically converse with Germans Arabs doesn't matter what language they have because i pick it up pretty fast.
And that's all down to Irish.

It doesn't matter its the point its there for them to learn and enjoy if they don't like it when they get to second level education let them out of it.
I have been down in all Irish speaking towns and i enjoyed many a good Song and conversation with very interesting Irish people in Irish,when i wasnt even half as fluent as them at that stage when i first started going.
Also was a great feeling when i could have a conversation with my grandad or granny god rest them,or some old Irish person and the delight in their eyes when i would answer back in Irish is worth more to me then not.

MonkeyMan.

caseyann wrote: »

Says you :rolleyes:
I speak with non nationals every day,and i have pretty good aptitude in french from learning in school,Spanish from been there and learning off students when they came on exchanges among other languages,and you know what they ask me to do teach them Irish.
I can basically converse with Germans Arabs doesn't matter what language they have because i pick it up pretty fast.
And that's all down to Irish.

It doesn't matter its the point its there for them to learn and enjoy if they don't like it when they get to second level education let them out of it.
I have been down in all Irish speaking towns and i enjoyed many a good Song and conversation with very interesting Irish people in Irish,when i wasnt even half as fluent as them at that stage when i first started going.
Also was a great feeling when i could have a conversation with my grandad or granny god rest them,or some old Irish person and the delight in their eyes when i would answer back in Irish is worth more to me then not.

Now heres someone who knows how important irish is, in a personal and educational way!!

Iwasfrozen

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

Well if you don't care about it, why are you bothered to go on this tread?

I do care about it. I care for the ability of my future children to decide wether or not they want to do Irish in schhol. I do not want the Irish government to force nationalistic nonsense down the throats of young impressionable Irish children.

Pace2008

caseyann wrote: »

Says you :rolleyes:
I speak with non nationals every day,and i have pretty good aptitude in french from learning in school,Spanish from been there and learning off students when they came on exchanges among other languages,and you know what they ask me to do teach them Irish.

More likely they ask you to teach them a few phrases they can use as a novelty, as I often do when I'm half pissed talking to a foreigner in a club.

I can basically converse with Germans Arabs doesn't matter what language they have because i pick it up pretty fast.
And that's all down to Irish.

You'll have to explain how it helped, exactly, since the languages you've mentioned have completely different syntax and grammatical structure.

I have been down in all Irish speaking towns and i enjoyed many a good Song and conversation with very interesting Irish people in Irish,when i wasnt even half as fluent as them at that stage when i first started going.
Also was a great feeling when i could have a conversation with my grandad or granny god rest them,or some old Irish person and the delight in their eyes when i would answer back in Irish is worth more to me then not.

Many a sing-song and your grandparents' approval. As compelling argument from the compulsory side as I've seen so far in this thread.

Pittens

I do not want the Irish government to force nationalistic nonsense down the throats of young impressionable Irish children.

Jesus wept. Learning Irish in Ireland is no more nationalistic than learning English in England, German in Germany ( instead of Turkish, for instance) or Spanish in Spain, or English in America.

Pittens

As compelling argument from the compulsory side as I've seen so far in this thread.

There is an argument that if Irish be abolished, then English too. or at least teach American spelling.

MonkeyMan.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I do care about it. I care for the ability of my future children to decide wether or not they want to do Irish in schhol. I do not want the Irish government to force nationalistic nonsense down the throats of young impressionable Irish children.

I get why you would want it to be a choice but not to through it out all together!..you do not realise how important irish is for a lot of people. and excuse me but the language is not 'nonsense' .. don't be disrespectful to people who speak irish on a daily basis!

Pace2008

Pittens wrote: »

There is an argument that if Irish be abolished, then English too. or at least teach American spelling.

Indeed. I'd fancy you made it up just there.

The primary function of language is clear communication. The presence or absence of a "u" or the interchanging of a "z" AND "s" does not impede this.

caseyann

Pace2008 wrote: »

More likely they ask you to teach them a few phrases they can use as a novelty, as I often do when I'm half pissed talking to a foreigner in a club.

You'll have to explain how it helped, exactly, since the languages you've mentioned have completely different syntax and grammatical structure.

Many a sing-song and your grandparents' approval. As compelling argument from the compulsory side as I've seen so far in this thread.

No actually you would be mistaken spent whole summers year on year teaching same kids Irish when they taught me spanish.

Is english the same as Arabic???? But yet they learn it.Is chinese same as French or german but oh wait guess what they learn it.
You are grasping.
Been able to Grasp Irish helped me Grasp other Languages.

See trying to twist it again its your heritage for god sake.

Iwasfrozen

Pittens wrote: »

Jesus wept. Learning Irish in Ireland is no more nationalistic than learning English in England, German in Germany ( instead of Turkish, for instance) or Spanish in Spain, or English in America.

The language in those countries are tought for a practical reason. To allow the child to communicate to other people in that country.

Irish has no such need. It is tought only to keep alive a dead dream of nationalistic nonsense.

Macha

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It is true. Learning one language does not help you learn another language unless the languages are related.

It simply doesn't. Forcing our children to a dead language learn Irish will not help then learn a usefull language like French or German.

However one thing that would help is scapping Irish from the curriculum and spening those forty two minutes extra a day learning the new language!

Look - unless you can provide some evidence instead of simply repeating yourself then I'll stick with my opinion that learning any language teaches you the skills and mental pathways for learning another one, one which I have backed up with evidence.

And Irish is not a dead language - perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the definition.

Pittens

The primary function of language is clear communication. The presence or absence of a "u" or the interchanging of a "z" AND "s" does not impede this.

So lets not use the surplus u in color, for instance.

The reason I bring this up is simple. I think the support of British English is itself nationalistic ( including amongst Irish English speakers). If we want a standard lets use american English - presumably that is what is taught world wide.

Iwasfrozen

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

I get why you would want it to be a choice but not to through it out all together!

I don't want rid of it all together.

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

..you do not realise how important irish is for a lot of people. and excuse me but the language is not 'nonsense' .. don't be disrespectful to people who speak irish on a daily basis!

I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I may as well call a spade a spade. Nationalism is nonsense and you speak Irish only for sentimental value.

I do not want my future children to waste forty two hours a day learning a language based on nonsensical and sentimental grounds.

Pittens

The language in those countries are tought for a practical reason. To allow the child to communicate to other people in that country.

We could replace all languages with esperanto, so the teaching of German in Germany is nationalistic.

Question is this: why is only the nationalism of small beleaguered countries questioned here? Is it only nationalistic to teach your language if you are a historical victim? If Ireland had an empire and Irish was used in the US your argument would hold no water, for then Irish would be useful.

So basically small nations, or peoples - Irish, native American etc. - are nationalistic for holding onto their ancestoral language, large powers are being normal. But that falls down , as we could replace it all with Esperanto in one generation.

why not?

MonkeyMan.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't want rid of it all together.


I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I may as well call a spade a spade. Nationalism is nonsense and you speak Irish only for sentimental value.

I do not want my future children to waste forty two hours a day learning a language based on nonsensical and sentimental grounds.

actually, its great for employment opportunities

Iwasfrozen

taconnol wrote: »

Look - unless you can provide some evidence instead of simply repeating yourself then I'll stick with my opinion that learning any language teaches you the skills and mental pathways for learning another one, which I have backed up with evidence.

That argument works both ways pal.

taconnol wrote: »

And Irish is not a dead language - perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the definition.

It most certainly isn't alive. Perhaps I should call it a brain dead language being kept alive by the government in the form of mandatory Irish.

Is that why you don't want to see it optional? Because you know in such a case the language would inevitably fade from existence and fewer and fewer people take it up.

You would rather see thousands of people forced spend countless hours over fourteen years learn something they will have no pragmatic use for all because you don't want to see an ideal die. That's quite sad really.

Iwasfrozen

MonkeyMan. wrote: »

actually, its great for employment opportunities

It wouldn't be if it was made optional in education. Then all that would be left would be the gravyboat European jobs.

Pittens

You would rather see thousands of people forced spend countless hours over fourteen years learn something they will have no pragmatic use for all because you don't want to see an ideal die. That's quite sad really.

Education is not about pragmatism. Most people dont need the mathematics they learn in school. History will get you no job, except as teacher of history, or a historian.

History, and Irish, are about links with the past. I think we should have Latin too.

Macha

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It most certainly isn't alive. Perhaps I should call it a brain dead language being kept alive by the government in the form of mandatory Irish.

This really is descending into the most childish language. Do you know the definition of a dead language?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Is that why you don't want to see it optional? Because you know in such a case the language would inevitably fade from existence and fewer and fewer people take it up.

You would rather see thousands of people forced spend countless hours over fourteen years learn something they will have no pragmatic use for all because you don't want to see an ideal die. That's quite sad really.

You're so intent on your rant, you haven't even noticed that I didn't say that I don't want to see it as optional. My advice is to calm down.

MonkeyMan.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That argument works both ways pal.


It most certainly isn't alive. Perhaps I should call it a brain dead language being kept alive by the government in the form of mandatory Irish.

Is that why you don't want to see it optional? Because you know in such a case the language would inevitably fade from existence and fewer and fewer people take it up.

You would rather see thousands of people forced spend countless hours over fourteen years learn something they will have no pragmatic use for all because you don't want to see an ideal die. That's quite sad really.

You are actually driving me mad!!! oh no its not 'nonsense' but it's a 'brain dead language' ... how very dare you!!! are you forgeting about the 7 gaeltachtaí around ireland?? there are foreigners comin into this country learnin irish!!! people like you just want it dead!

MysticalRain

aDeener wrote: »

its a combination of lazy students and lazy teachers looking for an excuse for their own shortcomings. also the curriculum's of maths and science may also need to be looked at.

That doesn't change the fact that thousands of the brightest and well motivated students deliberately avoid honours Irish because it's viewed as an obstacle to achieving a good leaving cert.

sceptre

Pittens wrote: »

I think we should have Latin too.

Er, we do have Latin too. It's available as a Leaving cert exam and has been for the past 90 or so years.

Macha

sceptre wrote: »

Er, we do have Latin too. It's available as a Leaving cert exam and has been for the past 90 or so years.

Depending on which school you go to. But of course you can't expect every school to teach every subject.

More reason for non-gender segregated schools, IMO.

sceptre

With mod hat on, if people could actually read what others are saying rather than making assumptions that they want Irish gone or compulsory on the streets, when most people have said no such thing, it'd be rather good. Quite a few of you appear to be making assumptions about the posts of other members that can only lead me to believe that you're willing to type but not to read. If you're not reading what you're railing against you're just wasting space.

Also, when you personalise the discussion by failing to address the topic of the discussion and instead decide to make ad hominem remarks about your fellow forum members, you will be issued with a formal warning for it. I probably already made that point as an on-thread moderator reminder and it's in the forum charter but this is for anyone who needs to be told three times.

/mod

Also, if you could up the standard of what you're trying to post, that would be good as roughly half of this thread isn't even compelling reading, let alone anything approaching a compelling argument. While that may seem harsh, if you wish your point of view to be taken seriously, consider the person reading it and whether it's going to be in any way persuasive to someone else as otherwise this thread is doing the point of view of some of you no favours whatever, I'm dismayed to say.

Burgo

taconnol wrote: »

Depending on which school you go to. But of course you can't expect every school to teach every subject.

More reason for non-gender segregated schools, IMO.

I haven't heard of any secondary school that teaches it tbh