Apartment NOT soundproofed

Elbi

I was just wondering if anyone could give me any information on what to do or has anyone experienced the same.

I bought an apartment in castletroy a few years back but since day one I have had problems with the noise from upstairs,
The apartments were built very badly and they were not soundproofed at all.
I know in apartments you do expect to have some noises but this is beyond a joke, I can hear proper and full conversations from the people above, I can hear them running water, turning on the bathroom light I can know exact programmes they are watching on tv, can hear the kettle, washing machine etc. The apartment above me is a duplex so it has a second floor and I can actually hear them 2 floors up getting out of bed and coming down the stairs.

Now for the past 2 to 3 years the management company have been sound testing apartments and there is also a law suit going on at the moment or so i am told but i feel i am being fobbed off. On the last phone call i had with the management company I was told that all the apartments upper AND lower will be issued with a summons that when buying the apartment it stated in a contract (which I never remember getting and which i am waiting weeks for them to sent me a copy) that all apartments were not to have wooden flooring or tiles, I said said that I never heard of this and also the show houses had wooden floors throughout and WERE SOUNDPROOFED.

I'm sorry for such a long winded thread but I said id ask as i am after losing my job and need to rent out my home but once people come to view it and hear the noise from above they say no way.

I was also told I was wasting my time getting onto my own solicitor as they have their own court case going on at the moment.
Is there anything I can do?

Paulw

You would have signed the Lease Contract when buying your apt. Your solicitor would generally keep your copy. I made sure to get a copy for myself. This contract would have had the rules, such as no wooden/tiled floors.

In short, you are in a difficult position. The management company may very well be taking legal action against the developer. These can take years before they even make it to a court hearing. They are long, slow and costly. Try to get more details about it from your management agent. Talk to other residents in the development and see if you all have the same issue. A group working together is a lot stronger than lots of individuals.

You could try speaking to the developer directly. Probably won't get you far.

You could talk to your neighbours above about them getting a sound layer put under their floor. I have sounding material under my floor (carpet). Mind you, I have a solid concrete floor between me and the unit below.

You could try to get some sound proofing put in to your unit roof. There is probably a cavity between your ceiling and the floor of the unit above you. I'm not sure how effective this will be, since sound will also travel up/down the walls too, and the cavity there.

There are a number of ways to approach this issue, but none are quick and none are cheap.

Best of luck.

Elbi

Paulw wrote: »

You would have signed the Lease Contract when buying your apt. Your solicitor would generally keep your copy. I made sure to get a copy for myself. This contract would have had the rules, such as no wooden/tiled floors.

In short, you are in a difficult position. The management company may very well be taking legal action against the developer. These can take years before they even make it to a court hearing. They are long, slow and costly. Try to get more details about it from your management agent. Talk to other residents in the development and see if you all have the same issue. A group working together is a lot stronger than lots of individuals.

You could try speaking to the developer directly. Probably won't get you far.

You could talk to your neighbours above about them getting a sound layer put under their floor. I have sounding material under my floor (carpet). Mind you, I have a solid concrete floor between me and the unit below.

You could try to get some sound proofing put in to your unit roof. There is probably a cavity between your ceiling and the floor of the unit above you. I'm not sure how effective this will be, since sound will also travel up/down the walls too, and the cavity there.

There are a number of ways to approach this issue, but none are quick and none are cheap.

Best of luck.

I am a groud floor apartment but I also have to have carpet or line which i told the management company ihave no problem doing. then then told me that the had had some units change from wood/tiles to carpet and it has made no difference at all,
Would it have been in my contract about the wooden floors even if the show houses where wooden throughout and soundproofed, I heard somewhere that if the show house was soundproofed and the others arent then they have to soundproof the units straight away, not sure how true that is,


There is a neighbourhood group together who meet every so often and update on the situation as every apartment is experiencing the same thing, (my nightbour sleeps in his car some nights) its been years and i havent minded the wait as such but its just now i need to put if up for rent i am gettin anxious about it and I cant get anything done myself for financial reasons, I do pay insurance to the management company but they said it wouldn't cover that,


Thanks alot for your help, Im going to keep looking into it and see what i can do.

Paulw

Insurance won't cover it. It doesn't matter either what was in the showhouse/show apt. They can actually have a different contract for the show unit from all others.

If you building meets the environmental standards (within building regulations) then there is not much you can do, aside from everyone paying to have their own individual unit sounded.

You could try bringing the issue to the attention of your local planning authority. Get your local TDs and councillors involved.

Other than that, I'm not sure what you could do.

Sorry.

Elbi

Paulw wrote: »

Insurance won't cover it. It doesn't matter either what was in the showhouse/show apt. They can actually have a different contract for the show unit from all others.

If you building meets the environmental standards (within building regulations) then there is not much you can do, aside from everyone paying to have their own individual unit sounded.

You could try bringing the issue to the attention of your local planning authority. Get your local TDs and councillors involved.

Other than that, I'm not sure what you could do.

Sorry.

I think they were sound tested and failed then some where made change their flooring, then sound tested again with the new flooring and the tests were inconclusive

I think its actually a very good idea about getting onto the local planning authority and TDs

thanks very much I am going to do that

bobbysands81

Elbi wrote: »

I was just wondering if anyone could give me any information on what to do or has anyone experienced the same.

I bought an apartment in castletroy a few years back but since day one I have had problems with the noise from upstairs,
The apartments were built very badly and they were not soundproofed at all.
I know in apartments you do expect to have some noises but this is beyond a joke, I can hear proper and full conversations from the people above, I can hear them running water, turning on the bathroom light I can know exact programmes they are watching on tv, can hear the kettle, washing machine etc. The apartment above me is a duplex so it has a second floor and I can actually hear them 2 floors up getting out of bed and coming down the stairs.

Now for the past 2 to 3 years the management company have been sound testing apartments and there is also a law suit going on at the moment or so i am told but i feel i am being fobbed off. On the last phone call i had with the management company I was told that all the apartments upper AND lower will be issued with a summons that when buying the apartment it stated in a contract (which I never remember getting and which i am waiting weeks for them to sent me a copy) that all apartments were not to have wooden flooring or tiles, I said said that I never heard of this and also the show houses had wooden floors throughout and WERE SOUNDPROOFED.

I'm sorry for such a long winded thread but I said id ask as i am after losing my job and need to rent out my home but once people come to view it and hear the noise from above they say no way.

I was also told I was wasting my time getting onto my own solicitor as they have their own court case going on at the moment.
Is there anything I can do?

Elbi,

I have a some experience of this kind of thing. It is a nightmare and I know how much stress and hassle this causes.

A few things...

Do the owners of the apartments fully run the Management Company yet?

If not and if your Management Company is quite new then it is possible that the Directors of said company are also your builders. If this is the case then the Managing Agents will be directed by the builders as to how to act so maybe that's why you're not getting proper answers and they're dragging their feet. Time for you to take control of the situation.

When you buy your apartment you usually don't buy the freehold but the leasehold and as such sign a "lease" for 999 years. Most leases have a clause in them which state that your neighbour cannot put down flooring that will cause you a "nuisance".

Some leases don't say anything about wooden flooring but talk about flooring that causes "a nuisance" to a neighbour, this does not specify that the floor has to be wooden.

If the floor above your unit causes a nuisance then it might have to be replaced by your neighbour. However, if the unit fails a "Sound Test" then it is the fault of the builder as your unit does not pass the Building Regs.

There are companies that carry out sound tests which will determine whether or not your unit was built to the required standard. Two such companies are EJ Dalton and Cuinas - if you google them you will get details (I have no links to either company).

You may also contact your local authority who will have a person that deals with Building Standards (Building Standards or Building Enforcement Officer) - they might even come out to your unit and arrange such a test. The Dept of the Environment has a Building Standards Section where you can get the relevant regs.

I know there were regs on this in 1997 but don't know if they were updated.

This link will be helpful, "Part E" relates to Sound.

http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/

I know that some new builds get a sound test carried out (there are two tests to be done) but I don't know if these are mandatory.

If the build fails these tests then the house is not built to standard and the builder is 100% liable to rectify this. I would also consider suing for stress/sleepless nights etc...

A sound test will probably cost you about €1,000 though so it ain't cheap.

Contact a solicitor, get a sound test done, if it fails get your solicitor to write treatening legal action and all should sort itself out. However, in advance of doing that, I would contact the builders and inform them that if they don't rectify things immediately then you're going to sue (as this will save you on the outlay for the sound engineer).

Elbi

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Elbi,

I have a some experience of this kind of thing. It is a nightmare and I know how much stress and hassle this causes.

A few things...

Do the owners of the apartments fully run the Management Company yet?

If not and if your Management Company is quite new then it is possible that the Directors of said company are also your builders. If this is the case then the Managing Agents will be directed by the builders as to how to act so maybe that's why you're not getting proper answers and they're dragging their feet. Time for you to take control of the situation.

When you buy your apartment you usually don't buy the freehold but the leasehold and as such sign a "lease" for 999 years. Most leases have a clause in them which state that your neighbour cannot put down flooring that will cause you a "nuisance".

Some leases don't say anything about wooden flooring but talk about flooring that causes "a nuisance" to a neighbour, this does not specify that the floor has to be wooden.

If the floor above your unit causes a nuisance then it might have to be replaced by your neighbour. However, if the unit fails a "Sound Test" then it is the fault of the builder as your unit does not pass the Building Regs.

There are companies that carry out sound tests which will determine whether or not your unit was built to the required standard. Two such companies are EJ Dalton and Cuinas - if you google them you will get details (I have no links to either company).

You may also contact your local authority who will have a person that deals with Building Standards (Building Standards or Building Enforcement Officer) - they might even come out to your unit and arrange such a test. The Dept of the Environment has a Building Standards Section where you can get the relevant regs.

I know there were regs on this in 1997 but don't know if they were updated.

This link will be helpful, "Part E" relates to Sound.

http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/

I know that some new builds get a sound test carried out (there are two tests to be done) but I don't know if these are mandatory.

If the build fails these tests then the house is not built to standard and the builder is 100% liable to rectify this. I would also consider suing for stress/sleepless nights etc...

A sound test will probably cost you about €1,000 though so it ain't cheap.

Contact a solicitor, get a sound test done, if it fails get your solicitor to write treatening legal action and all should sort itself out. However, in advance of doing that, I would contact the builders and inform them that if they don't rectify things immediately then you're going to sue (as this will save you on the outlay for the sound engineer).

Thanks very much for your reply, It was very helpful and as you said you have had some experience with this so you know what im talking about,

I have heard that the management company and builders and all the one that the company is owned by the builders or something. In sayin that the man i spoke to from the management company agreed fully with me, i expalined that i was exaggerating and he said he know he gets many complaints each week,

Thanks for the link I am going to print it off now and have a read of it, Im am going to do a bit of enquiring into this now, I have rang the local building authority place and am waiting for a call back,

As for what you said tellin them I am going to sue, well I said that already and the management company told me its a waste of time and money to do so until they get their outcome of the case that is ongoing but as i said i feel they are just tryin to get rid of me.
I never thought of saying Id sure for stress and sleepless nights, but i think I will as I have told him many nights i have to get out of bed and drive to a friends on the other side of the city just to get some sleep, if i have work meeting or somethingthe following day .

Thanks again you post was very helpful. I shall update you if I get anywhere.

bobbysands81

Elbi wrote: »

Thanks very much for your reply, It was very helpful and as you said you have had some experience with this so you know what im talking about,

I have heard that the management company and builders and all the one that the company is owned by the builders or something. In sayin that the man i spoke to from the management company agreed fully with me, i expalined that i was exaggerating and he said he know he gets many complaints each week,

Thanks for the link I am going to print it off now and have a read of it, Im am going to do a bit of enquiring into this now, I have rang the local building authority place and am waiting for a call back,

As for what you said tellin them I am going to sue, well I said that already and the management company told me its a waste of time and money to do so until they get their outcome of the case that is ongoing but as i said i feel they are just tryin to get rid of me.
I never thought of saying Id sure for stress and sleepless nights, but i think I will as I have told him many nights i have to get out of bed and drive to a friends on the other side of the city just to get some sleep, if i have work meeting or somethingthe following day .

Thanks again you post was very helpful. I shall update you if I get anywhere.

You must remember that the Management Agent are acting on behalf of the Developers not on your behalf, therefore it is their job to represent the developers best interests and not yours - this is a very important thing to keep in mind and you have already said that there are acting very slowly. It takes an hour or so to do the sound test - and I think it takes a couple more days for the results (as there are calculations that have to be done) so there's no reason why there should be a large time lapse.

You need to act for yourself and not let others do it. Get the name from the Management Agent of which of your neighbours is currently suing the developer and speak with them as to what they have done and how far have they have gone to take the developer to court. In my instance I got a similar stock reply and when I went delving further there was nobody taking them to court. You don't even know if the person talking about suing them is doing it for the same reasons as you are.

As for the Local Authority - no harm in contacting them as they are in charge of "enforcement" and ensuring the Building Standards are adhered to (ask for the Building Control Officer for your area). However, I'd be surprised if you got speedy responses from them as they are usually very busy. I would also be surprised if they didn't tell you that it was a matter between yourself and the builder and that you should get a sound test carried out to determine whether or not they are breaching Building Regs.

Your case should be open and shut - if you get the sound test done and your unit fails then the Developer is in breach of Building Regs and you have them over a barrel - they'd be mad to let that go to court as they will lose hands down and will have to pay costs etc... That's when you look to settle with them...

If you have any more queries feel free to give me a shout, as I said I've experience with this issue - builders that build sub-standard units really deserve to be hammered by ordinary folks.

Paulw

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You must remember that the Management Agent are acting on behalf of the Developers not on your behalf

That's only if the developer is still involved and are directors of your management company. If residents are directors, then the developer has no longer a vested interest.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Your case should be open and shut - if you get the sound test done and your unit fails then the Developer is in breach of Building Regs and you have them over a barrel - they'd be mad to let that go to court as they will lose hands down and will have to pay costs etc... That's when you look to settle with them...

Should. However, builders and such will delay and delay as much as they possibly can. Some may not be in business, with the way things are going.

Also, taking them to court will cost you initially (to hire a solicitor/barristor), and to actually file the action. It can also take a long time to get to court, and even then you are not always sure you will win and even that you will be awarded costs.

While I do totally agree that they should pay (and fix things the way they should have been done in the first place), the actual chances of that happening are quite slim.

bobbysands81

Paulw wrote: »

That's only if the developer is still involved and are directors of your management company. If residents are directors, then the developer has no longer a vested interest.

Well she did say that she thought it was still owned by the developers.

A large scale snag list of the estate has to be done before ownership is vested in the shareholders (owners) and it sounds like this has not been done yet.

Paulw wrote: »

Should. However, builders and such will delay and delay as much as they possibly can. Some may not be in business, with the way things are going.

Also, taking them to court will cost you initially (to hire a solicitor/barristor), and to actually file the action. It can also take a long time to get to court, and even then you are not always sure you will win and even that you will be awarded costs.

While I do totally agree that they should pay (and fix things the way they should have been done in the first place), the actual chances of that happening are quite slim.

Get the sound test done and if it fails then the law is on your side and sue them. You're right that there is an outlay involved but if it fails the sound test then you will get this money back by suing them. Delaying tactics will more than likely be employed but what do you think the alternative for her is???

Offer to resolve the issue instead of going to court (in writing) at every possible juncture and no judge will award costs against you as you have done all in your power to NOT go to court - then it is the developer insisting on going to court even though they have clearly breached Building Regs.

By the way - huge tip for the original poster - make a written note of absolutely everything. Every time you make a phonecall to the developer/managing agent etc... write down the time, date, what was said etc... minute absolutely every single bit of contact you have with them.

The small person can win these battles... I know! ;-)

20goto10

If you can afford it then I would bite the bullet and get the place soundproofed. Then pursue the developer for the costs afterwords. You are lucky in that there is no noise from below you, so it's a simple matter of tearing down the plaster board walls and roof, sound proofing, new plaster boards, replastering and painting.

You could do everything yourself except for the plastering which will need a pro.

The_Conductor

Guys- soundproofing is a massive issue in apartments- fullstop.
Most leases since 2004 will specify the type of flooring that is allowed, when televisions should be lowered at night etc.

With respect of Management Companies- irrespective of whether the builders/developers nominees are still in control of the company or not- by virtue of purchasing a lease on one of the units, you are a shareholder. Control of the Management Company does not have to be handed over- you are a shareholder, with rights under company law. Ignoring your rights will leave a management company (or any company) open to a legal challenge of acting against the interests of minority shareholders.

You have no automatic right to get a management company (or anyone else) to pay for soundproofing. Sound is an issue in apartments- you have to accept this- everyone else does when they buy an apartment. If you elect to retrofit soundproofing of your own accord- you will need the prior approval of the management company if the job has any effect whatsoever on the property structurally (this can include any attachments to or modifications to structural walls).

I am only too well aware of how your standard of living can be greatly reduced by noise pollution resulting from apartment living- unfortunately you sign up to this when you agree to live in an apartment.

Get your lease out, and read the conditions carefully.

ricman

if you put soundproofing on ceilings you,ll have to pay for it.You could get an expert to check is the existing soundproofing up to standard.
i told my friend to buy a top floor apartment, its new, she never hears a sound.from anyone.she had a choice of ground floor or top floor.
sell your apartment ,buy a 2bed house , or new apartment on the top floor and get the sound proofing tested be4 you buy.
i understand its not easy to sell ,ie most people who bought since 2004 are in negative equity.
its very easy , though messy to take down plaster from a ceiling ,then get an expert to install hi quality soundproofing.

get a top floor unit, in the corner,right, ie that means you,ll ownly have neighbours, on 2 sides of your apartment, reduces the chances of noise by 50 per cent.or one of the 4 corners top floor.

my sis had apartment top floor corner right hand side , old converted building , the outside walls were over 1ft thick, it was very quiet.

with good sound insulation top corner units tend to be quiet.
i never heard any noise ,it was quieter than the average house.

Elbi

smccarrick wrote: »

unfortunately you sign up to this when you agree to live in an apartment.

Get your lease out, and read the conditions carefully.

NO I didnt not sign up for this when purchasing my apartment, the show units were totally soundproofed (i checked) when i bought my unit i couldnt go into the upper apartment as it has been bought but i was assured that it too was exactly like the show house. SOUNDPROOFED!
I am aware that in apatments I am to expect noises but this is beyond a joke,. I have tried to sell and rent it but once people come to view they hear the noises from above then say no way.

The_Conductor

The show-apartments were soundproofed?
Where is this?
I'm being totally honest with you when I say I have never heard of soundproofing being routinely installed in apartments anywhere in Ireland. If your prospectus definitely said soundproofing was installed- you would have a legitimate case for breach of contract against the developer (for what its worth- given that most are bankrupt). If it did not specifically state that soundproofing was installed- you have no rights whatsoever.

Have a look in this forum- soundproofing and the lack thereof in apartments- comes up here very very regularly. Your situation is far from unique. I've had to move out of my apartment several times when neighbours were doing renovations, the only thing that keeps things half sane is a ban on parties in our 900 year leases, alongside a condition specifying that TVs cannot be above a certain level (28 decibels) after 10PM at night. It even details whats allowed re: barbeques on balconies etc.

I was told the apartment has concrete floors (it does) and a double cavity wall to either side (which I've confirmed by checking in the attic). Nonetheless- I can hear toilets flushing to either side, taps on, conversations, arguments, furniture moving, etc.

Several owners have been pulled up on not having carpet on all their floors of a minimum thickness (as specified in our 900 year leases), as we've discovered this includes bathrooms- which are not allowed to be tiled etc.

Your only recourse at all- is if you have documentation which definitively states that soundproofing was/is installed.

You need to get a copy of your lease and read it in detail and see exactly what it says.

ricman

IS some minimum level of sound proof not part of the building regulations, how old is this apartment.Can you sue the builder if the sound proofing or thermal insulation, is defective ,or has not been installed according to regulations.
I GO to my friend s apartment , i cannot hear anything from below, its 1 year old.
so i assume there must be special soundproofing or heavy insulation in the walls.
i think there were stricter building regs brought in to force about 2 years ago in regard to insulation or sound proofing in new buildings.

SEE here http://www.keepitquiet.co.uk/help.html

The_Conductor

ricman wrote: »

is some minimum level of sound proof not part of the building regulations, how old is this apartment.Can you sue the builder if the sound proofing or insulation, is defective ,or has not been installed according to regulations.
I GO to my friend s apartment , i cannot here anything from below,, its 1 year old.
so i assume there must be special soundproofing or heavy insulation in the walls.

Building regulations constantly evolve. An apartment built a year ago- complies to wholly different regulations than does one built 4 years ago- which in turn differs to one from 6 years and 10 years previous.

Soundproofing was not routinely installed in apartments in Ireland- it often was an option- but it was not routine. Insulation was/is routinely installed- complying with differing regulations at different stages.

Current building regulations are here

This thread (admittedly a few years old) from Askaboutmoney- may be of interest to you-

ricman

so you have to figure out was apartment built in line with the regulations in say 2002 when it was built ,apartments built in 2008 should be built to a higher standard.there has to be x amount of insulation plus an air gap, and the insulation must be put on perfectly,and the floors must be x amount width , ie most apartments are not checked or inspected , they might inspect a few and assume the rest will be built to the same standard.your ceiling or the floor above could be built below spec, or insulation was not installed properly.

bobbysands81

ricman wrote: »

so you have to figure out was apartment built in line with the regulations in say 2002 when it was built ,apartments built in 2008 should be built to a higher standard.there has to be x amount of insulation plus an air gap, and the insulation must be put on perfectly,and the floors must be x amount width , ie most apartments are not checked or inspected , they might inspect a few and assume the rest will be built to the same standard.your ceiling or the floor above could be built below spec, or insulation was not installed properly.

100% correct.

I know of situations where units have failed sound tests after completion yet still sold as having met all rBuilding Regs.

Maco43

Hi,

i am having a similar issue and am woundering how you got on?.
the thread has been open since 2010 and maybe a solution has been found.
i would be very interested to know.

Thanks:

Richard Dower

Speaking from experience and living in a middle floor flat (someone above and below me)....it was an utter nightmare!, it was sooo bad i was hosptalised for stress, developed a type of personality disorder from it....where i am hyper sensitive to sound now.

Cars, dogs barking, listening to couples fighting...then having makeup sex. Every sniffle moan and conversation could be repeated word perfect such was the state of these flats.

Partitions, no soundproofing....its like living with 8 people, you know who slept with whom, how Jimmy got pissed and puked up a kebab.

It drove me near literal mental!.....Bengal was grand enough, at cottage....now back to a feckin ground floor apt. - though so far i'm not hearing much of anything from above - god willing its a concrete ceiling.


I have empathy for anyone going through this.....

ford2600

Maco43 wrote: »

Hi,

i am having a similar issue and am woundering how you got on?.
the thread has been open since 2010 and maybe a solution has been found.
i would be very interested to know.

Thanks:

When did you buy?
When was house constructed?

Proper testing isn't cheap but will tell you whethet house complies or not with attenuation required under regulations.

Is developer gone bust? If so whoever signed off might be insured.....