Sinn Fein

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I never mentioned the Widgery Report.

No, you mentioned "seems straight forward to me" in regards to Gerry Adams being a mass murderer, where I requested evidence for such a statement.

IrishTonyO

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Sorry my search results dated that 12/06/10, I neglected to check the date on the article Anyone know why Google would date this as 12/06/10 in the search results when you click the link it brings you to the article which is 2008? Will have to pay more attention to my search results in future.
Even though have been searching to find their current policy and there doesn't seem to be one on the Sinn Fein website? Maybe I just can't find it but even general google searches doesn't really bring back anything concrete

dlofnep wrote: »

Firstly, let's be very clear. We were not initially discussing Sinn Féin's entire economic policy for the south. I stated that Sinn Féin's current corporate tax policy was to retain the status quo of 12.5%

You responded stating that I was wrong, citing a 2 year old article from the Independant. I corrected you by showing you that they do indeed have a corp tax, and cited their website which listed a all-island policy for corp tax harmonisation.

Now, firstly - I would appreciate it if you manned up and accepted that you were wrong.

Onward.

Sinn Féin's economic policies, and budget submissions are available here: http://www.sinnfein.ie/economy

Since you obviously do not read all the posts I have quoted a previous post of mine where I apologised for this as soon as it was pointed out to me, not by yourself but by guinnessdrinker.

But I will now state the reason I do not vote for Sinn Fein and it has a lot to do with attitudes of Sinn fein members and supporters, who consistently take an aggressive stance against anyone who does not agree with them. Also from my personal experience Sinn Fein does not represent me. And the majority of it's members and supporters that I have come across are the type of people I would cross the street to avoid.

dlofnep

IrishTonyO wrote: »

But I will now state the reason I do not vote for Sinn Fein and it has a lot to do with attitudes of Sinn fein members and supporters, who consistently take an aggressive stance against anyone who does not agree with them.

Oh, people in Sinn Féin are more than tolerant of people with differing opinions, as evident by a member of the Orange Order speaking at their Ard Fheis 2 or 3 years ago.

What people do not appreciate however, is unfounded accusations, or blatant lies and smears - and then when they are given evidence to suggest otherwise, they brush it off as if it's ok to spread such lies or smears.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I don't see why people are so obsessive about Gerry Adams being the IRA leader.

He's been the leader of Sinn Fein since 1983. Sinn Fein were the political wing of the IRA. So basically the same organisation. He carried coffins for fallen IRA men, why would it actually be any different if he was in an active service unit?

dlofnep

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't see why people are so obsessive about Gerry Adams being the IRA leader.

He's been the leader of Sinn Fein since 1983. Sinn Fein were the political wing of the IRA. So basically the same organisation. He carried coffins for fallen IRA men, why would it actually be any different if he was in an active service unit?

It wouldn't. Which is why he had no reason to dispute being in the IRA. It also doesn't prove that he was a mass murderer, as previously described.

IrishTonyO

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh, people in Sinn Féin are more than tolerant of people with differing opinions, as evident by a member of the Orange Order speaking at their Ard Fheis 2 or 3 years ago.

What people do not appreciate however, is unfounded accusations, or blatant lies and smears - and then when they are given evidence to suggest otherwise, they brush it off as if it's ok to spread such lies or smears.

Clear evidence? A manifesto for a foreign country isn't the evidence I would be looking for. So I will ask you again do Sinn Fein have an economic policy document for the Republic of Ireland? YES or NO. If so please share a link so I may read it

dlofnep

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Clear evidence?

Yes, clear evidence.

What part of "all-island" harmonised tax rate of 12.5% do you not understand? It is an "all-Ireland" policy. You seem to have severe problems in understanding that Sinn Féin operates on a 32 county basis.

IrishTonyO wrote: »

A manifesto for a foreign country isn't the evidence I would be looking for. So I will ask you again do Sinn Fein have an economic policy document for the Republic of Ireland? YES or NO. If so please share a link so I may read it

I've already provided you with a link to their economic policies. Their budget submission, amongst other documents are available. I'm going to place you on ignore you continue to be purposefully ignorant.

In summary, just so I don't have to repeat myself.

• They do have a corp tax policy. It is 12.5% island-wide. (This means, across the entire Island.)
• Their economic policies are available on their website, which I have previously linked.

If I am forced to repeat myself again, you will be placed on ignore.

Nodin

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't see why people are so obsessive about Gerry Adams being the IRA leader.

He's been the leader of Sinn Fein since 1983. Sinn Fein were the political wing of the IRA. So basically the same organisation. He carried coffins for fallen IRA men, why would it actually be any different if he was in an active service unit?

To be honest, if that piece of muck stuck, or was removed from the throwing area entirely, another would be used instead. Personally, I don't know if Gerry Adams was the "leader" of the IRA, though I presume that at some stage in his life he was involved in that organisation at a high level.

IrishTonyO

dlofnep, do you not think it is strange that on the web page you linked they say harmonization of corporation tax, however when you open their manifesto (link on that page) there is no mention of it all in the manifesto?

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

What part of "all-island" harmonised tax rate of 12.5% do you not understand? It is an "all-Ireland" policy. You seem to have severe problems in understanding that Sinn Féin operates on a 32 county basis.

They are running for election and looking for votes in this country, though.

If they don't recognise that, then why should we recognise them ?

Does their manifesto for people in the North state that if elected that their taxes will unfortunately have to continue to bail out Anglo Irish Bank, even if they get into government ?

If not, then they are being facetious.

"Operating" in two juristictions is one thing; formulating "one-size-fits-all" policies is completely different.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

Do you understand what "the [sic]harmonization[/sic] of corporation tax at 12.5% across the island" means?

American spellings now ? Are they that anti-English ?

dlofnep

IrishTonyO wrote: »

dlofnep, do you not think it is strange that on the web page you linked they say harmonization of corporation tax, however when you open their manifesto (link on that page) there is no mention of it all in the manifesto?

No Tony, I don't consider it strange at all. Their policy is 12.5% island-wide. I'm not sure how clearer I can be on this. If you believe it is anything other than what I have cited, and what it's website states - then please, provide me the figure and source.

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

American spellings now ? Are they that anti-English ?

You've convinced me Liam. Sinn Féin must be anti-English. They used a z instead of an s.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

American spellings now ? Are they that anti-English ?

Most spell checkers are set by default on "American" english, and some are quite awkward to change...patricularily when no-one can find the poxy installation cd.......

IrishTonyO

dlofnep wrote: »

No Tony, I don't consider it strange at all. Their policy is 12.5% island-wide. I'm not sure how clearer I can be on this. If you believe it is anything other than what I have cited, and what it's website states - then please, provide me the figure and source.

The manifesto does not mention it! Open it up an read it if you want, the economy section starts at page 43. or do a search of the entire pdf and you will see not one mention of corporation tax. I always assumed a manifesto was a public declaration of principles and intentions.

danbohan

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, clear evidence.

What part of "all-island" harmonised tax rate of 12.5% do you not understand? It is an "all-Ireland" policy. You seem to have severe problems in understanding that Sinn Féin operates on a 32 county basis.



I've already provided you with a link to their economic policies. Their budget submission, amongst other documents are available. I'm going to place you on ignore you continue to be purposefully ignorant.

In summary, just so I don't have to repeat myself.

• They do have a corp tax policy. It is 12.5% island-wide. (This means, across the entire Island.)
• Their economic policies are available on their website, which I have previously linked.

If I am forced to repeat myself again, you will be placed on ignore.

You seem to have severe problems in understanding that Sinn Féin operates on a 32 county basis

maybe we should say they operate on a 32 inner city basis ?

FlutterinBantam

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Show me proof that Adams was a leader of the PIRA.

Matt Baggot couldn't do that.

dlofnep

IrishTonyO wrote: »

The manifesto does not mention it! Open it up an read it if you want, the economy section starts at page 43. or do a search of the entire pdf and you will see not one mention of corporation tax. I always assumed a manifesto was a public declaration of principles and intentions.

Tony, Tony, Tony...

Their policy is 12.5% island-wide. Give your local branch a call and ask them if you want clarification. Their website states it quite clearly. I'm not sure what we're discussing. The paper in question does infact discuss harmonisation. The website lists it's harmonised tax rate.

I really don't want to go around in circles on this. Please don't make me. There are only so many hours in the day. Thank you.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

You've convinced me Liam. Sinn Féin must be anti-English. They used a z instead of an s.

Funny how you replied to that post and not to the one preceding it.

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Funny how you replied to that post and not to the one preceding it.

Not really. I was unsure if you were attempting to make a point, or have a whinge.

I think we're both aware that unification isn't going to happen over the next few years, so I'm unsure as to what the bail-out has to do with it in a real-world scenario. However, Sinn Féin opposes the bail out - just as a matter of interest.

They are running for election and looking for votes in this country, though.

If they don't recognise that, then why should we recognise them ?

I can't make heads nor tails out of what you're trying to say here.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

I think we're both aware that unification isn't going to happen over the next few years, so I'm unsure as to what the bail-out has to do with it in a real-world scenario.

You are suggesting that SF are basing their policies for this country based on a unified "All Ireland" approach.

I was just curious whether they were equally basing their policies in part of the UK based on a unified "All Ireland" approach.

dlofnep wrote: »

However, Sinn Féin opposes the bail out - just as a matter of interest.

That's irrelevant. NAMA is up and running, and - thanks to FF - the billions already poured into Anglo will have to be raised over the next while, regardless of whoever is in power.

But if SF were being consistent, the people of Northern Ireland (who are currently shielded from the bailouts) will have to pay.

And I was just wondering whether SF have told them that via their "all-island" policy documents.

dlofnep wrote: »

I can't make heads nor tails out of what you're trying to say here.

If SF can't / don't bother to think in terms of the country and what it needs (which might be different to the UK) then there's no reason for us to think they are even remotely suitable or qualified for the job.

Another example : will SF propose that abortion be available in the new "all-island", or will their manifesto tell those in the north that they can't have it anymore ? Will "one size fits all" do for that topic ?

dlofnep

You're conflating two separate issues. Current policies in both states, and policies which are required for the transition of the unification process when it occurs.

Take corporation tax for example. In order to remove the complete dependency on public sector in the north, Sinn Féin have proposed reducing the corp tax from 28% (ish) to 12.5% to entice more business, and give local businesses a chance to thrive. If Ireland was to unify in 20 years for example - the infrastructure would already need to be in place to make the transition seemless.

The issue of current policies, or current context is one that is separate for how the management of unification can occur. The only thing I can suggest for you Liam is to attend any of the number of Irish unification conferences, where you can pose the question (or any further) questions to them in regards to the establishment of a unified state, and how certain issues will be overcome.

I think your concerns are valid - but you're unable to separate them in context. Highlighting Nama to the average punter in the North isn't really valid, when unification isn't (at least in my eyes) in sight for another 20 years at least. it would be inappropriate, and irrelevant within the current timeframe & context.

lion_bar

For me, i wouldn't vote for them because of their links to the PIRA and other criminal activities in the north.

As an aside I don't think that their policies make much sense.

BTW, where does the money to pay all their community activists come from?

dlofnep

lion_bar wrote: »

For me, i wouldn't vote for them because of their links to the PIRA and other criminal activities in the north.

The PIRA is decommissioned. What current activities are you referring to?

lion_bar wrote: »

BTW, where does the money to pay all their community activists come from?

Activists don't get paid.

Glenshane Pass

Anyone who says Sinn Fein is 'marxist' really don't know the meaning of the word.

BlaasForRafa

lion_bar wrote: »

BTW, where does the money to pay all their community activists come from?

Irish-americans contributing to "the cause" and the £20+million from the Northern Bank raid has probably gone a long way towards funding Sinn Feins activities.

Byron85

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Irish-americans contributing to "the cause" and the £20+million from the Northern Bank raid has probably gone a long way towards funding Sinn Feins activities.

Another beautiful red herring from yourself.

Glenshane Pass

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Irish-americans contributing to "the cause" and the £20+million from the Northern Bank raid has probably gone a long way towards funding Sinn Feins activities.

Yeh, in some fantasy world that is.

Do you know what happened the money from the Northern Bank?
I challenge you to research it.

BlaasForRafa

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Another beautiful red herring from yourself.

that guy asked a question, I answered it. Whether you think its a red herring or not is irrelevant.

gsxr1

I vote sinn fein because im a republican from the north and they have brought us to this point, while others sit on the fence.

But more importantly. They are trying to get Kildare County Council to fix our road

PomBear

i love the way very SF thread mentioned, the same 5 or 6 posters jumped in with the same claims to defame them and get proven wrong everytime.

Pauleta

Im over the whole used to be terrorists thing now that they condemn any terrorist attacks be the new IRA. I hate them now because of their crazed far left agenda.

LordSutch

gsxr1 wrote: »

I vote sinn fein because im a republican from the north and they have brought us to this point, while others sit on the fence.

But more importantly. They are trying to get Kildare County Council to fix our road

Ironic, considering that not so long ago the IRA used to do this . . .

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

Ironic, considering that not so long ago the IRA used to do this . . .

They used to post "Image hosted by Tripod" images? Those monsters!

dlofnep

Pauleta wrote: »

I hate them now because of their crazed far left agenda.

Curious that you refer to their political outlook as an "agenda". Do you refer to centrist parties, or right wing parties as having a "crazed centrist" or "crazed right wing" agenda? Something tells me probably not.

What crazed "left agenda" policies invoke emotions of hate from you, out of matter of interest.

prinz

So long as they involve themselves with murdering, thieving, harrassment, intimidation and scum they won't get a vote from me. Thugs from the top down.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

So long as they involve themselves with murdering, thieving, harrassment, intimidation and scum they won't get a vote from me. Thugs from the top down.

Examples of all of the above please?

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

Examples of all of the above please?

Martin Ferris alone fulfills most of it. Thieving, smuggling, arms, explosives..

Involvement with killers of our national legitimate police force:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0805/breaking14.html

Murder and scumbaggery:
http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/esther-uzell-justice-for-joe-rafferty-dublin-south-east-2007/

Intimidation:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/killer-gang-link-to-attack-on-candidate-1756659.html

Byron85

prinz wrote: »

Martin Ferris alone fulfills most of it. Thieving, smuggling, arms, explosives..

Involvement with killers of our national legitimate police force:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0805/breaking14.html

Murder and scumbaggery:
http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/esther-uzell-justice-for-joe-rafferty-dublin-south-east-2007/

Intimidation:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/killer-gang-link-to-attack-on-candidate-1756659.html

You could apply all of the to Fianna Fail up until the mid-ninties. "We must tighten our belts" etc etc.

aDeener

Deleted User wrote: »

Bombing shopping centers and massacring bus loads of workers wasnt the main old IRA tactic. The old IRA actually fought soldier to soldier.

never heard of the Dunmanway massacre then?

BlaasForRafa

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

You could apply all of the to Fianna Fail up until the mid-ninties. "We must tighten our belts" etc etc.

I can't stand Fianna Fail but offhand I can't recall any in the last couple of decades actually jailed for importing illegal arms (Haughey, Blaney et al never did time)

Until a new generation replaces the old guard like Ferris, Sinn Fein will find it hard to be seen as an acceptable party in government.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

Martin Ferris alone fulfills most of it.

Involvement with killers of our national legitimate police force:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0805/breaking14.html

So he met with them upon their release to discuss the peace process? Hardly constitutes as "involvement".

prinz wrote: »

Murder and scumbaggery:
http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/esther-uzell-justice-for-joe-rafferty-dublin-south-east-2007/

Do you ever investigate anything before posting, or do you just google "sinn fein evil IRA killers" and post the first blog that comes back?

That death had nothing to do with Sinn Féin, nor was it even political. It was a petty dispute between an alleged former IRA member, and the lad in question - Joe Rafferty. Infact, Daithi Doolin (a SF councillor) tried to intervene on behalf of Rafferty to smooth things over.

His death was made into a political issue, when it was anything but a political issue. It was a spat between two people, one of which just so happened to be an alleged former IRA member. The IMC found that Rafferty's murder was not authorised by the IRA. Infact, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Féin. If we were to associate the death of every single person in this country by the political party that they support - the Government would collapse. But don't let that get in the way of a good spin.

prinz wrote: »

Intimidation:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/killer-gang-link-to-attack-on-candidate-1756659.html

Ah yes, the Independant. Sure, they'd never print anything to besmirch the name of Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin had nothing to do with that murder, so it's irrelevant to Sinn Féin as a party.

You're going to have to try harder.

Nehaxak

Reading through this whole thread, in fairness, it's those posting in support/defense of SF that come out as the most intelligent, most eloquent and most refined in their replies.

Just to point out also, "rabble rabble IRA blah blah blah" no longer cuts it as a rubuke to anything mentioned in relation to SF - if you could step back and move away from that old, lazy rebuttal and actually formulate intelligent discussion around and against their policies - it might help your case a little better when arguing against.

gleep

I know this will be scoffed at but........

Would the Gerry Adams/ Martin McGuinness bashers on here consider Nelson Mandela a terrorist who has no place in politics and should not be voted for?

The reason I ask is because he admitted to leading a paramilitary group in
South Africa.This group were formed after peaceful protests by the oppressed people of SA, demanding their basic human rights, were viciously put down by the Apartheid government. It was clear that non-violence protest would not bring about change.
Mandela admitted that his MK group carried out bombings and shootings that killed civilians.
He also played a major part in the peace process that ended the violence and resulted in a fairer society and the abolition of the oppressive government.

Sound familiar?

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

So he met with them upon their release to discuss the peace process? Hardly constitutes as "involvement"....

Do members of our national parliament make a habit of meeting and greeting killers? Again nice brush over his own criminal past.

dlofnep wrote: »

That death had nothing to do with Sinn Féin, nor was it even political. It was a petty dispute between an alleged former IRA member, and the lad in question - Joe Rafferty. Infact, Daithi Doolin (a SF councillor) tried to intervene on behalf of Rafferty to smooth things over...

Ah yes, is this the man who gave a guarantee IIRC that no harm would come to Joe? How did he manage that? You seem to refuse to acknowledge that those known to have been involved are also SF members.

dlofnep wrote: »

His death was made into a political issue, when it was anything but a political issue. It was a spat between two people, one of which just so happened to be an alleged former IRA member. The IMC found that Rafferty's murder was not authorised by the IRA. Infact, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Féin..

SF had involvement before the murder and after the murder. The IMC also found that SF did nothing to prevent it.

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah yes, the Independant. Sure, they'd never print anything to besmirch the name of Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin had nothing to do with that murder, so it's irrelevant to Sinn Féin as a party. You're going to have to try harder.

A known SF member? The same people who later go around intimidating a women who dares stand against them in elections? Sure I thought SF were well in with community groups and sorting out anti social behaviour? When it's on their own doorstep what happens?

btw I don't have to 'try' anything.

Nodin

Pauleta wrote: »

. I hate them now because of their crazed far left agenda.

That hysteria thing again.

prinz wrote:

A known SF member? The same people who later go around intimidating a women who dares stand against them in elections? .

You've proof of that?

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

Do members of our national parliament make a habit of meeting and greeting killers?

They certainly do.

prinz wrote: »

Ah yes, is this the man who gave a guarantee IIRC that no harm would come to Joe?

Daithi Doolin doesn't have control over everyone in Dublin. He put in a word, but ultimately it wasn't enough.

prinz wrote: »

You seem to refuse to acknowledge that those known to have been involved are also SF members.

I don't refuse to acknowledge anything. The person who killed him may or may not have been a member or former member of Sinn Féin. You missed my point completely that it wasn't a political murder. It was a spat between two people. Sinn Féin bears no responsibility for the killing.

prinz wrote: »

SF had involvement before the murder and after the murder.

No they did not. What involvement did Sinn Féin as a party have? And why didn't the sister or the lad in question ever go to the Gardaí?

prinz wrote: »

The IMC also found that SF did nothing to prevent it.

Sinn Féin had no control over the person involved. Since when are Sinn Féin the Gardaí? Didn't you make a comment early about "legitimate police force"? But now you're asking Sinn Féin to police every street hood in Dublin?

prinz wrote: »

A known SF member? The same people who later go around intimidating a women who dares stand against them in elections? Sure I thought SF were well in with community groups and sorting out anti social behaviour? When it's on their own doorstep what happens?

Once again - What has this to do with Sinn Féin as a party? It is the actions of an individual person, acting on their own individual standing. It was not authorised by the IRA, nor was it a political murder by Sinn Féin. Not that it matters, but I assume you have proof that he was a member of Sinn Féin. (Not that SF is to be held accountable for every single one of it's thousands activists across Ireland).

prinz wrote: »

btw I don't have to 'try' anything.

Oh believe me, you do. Your tantrums & hyperbole are getting you nowhere.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

They certainly do.

Care to provide a source for any other member of our parliament waiting outside a prison to collect prisoners?

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin had no control over the person involved. Since when are Sinn Féin the Gardaí? Didn't you make a comment early about "legitimate police force"? But now you're asking Sinn Féin to police every street hood in Dublin?

They should have cooperated with the gardaí. They didn't. Despite tears and calls for anyone to give information... none was forthcoming. Odd.

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh believe me, you do. Your tantrums & hyperbole are getting you nowhere.

:pac: The difference is I don't really care who agrees with me. I am giving opinion why I will never vote SF. It's not a popularity contest. Perhaps I should set up a group and get my online buddies to thank my posts though, maybe that will work.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

You've proof of that?

Has anyone been convicted? You want to hide behind that go ahead.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

So he met with them upon their release to discuss the peace process? Hardly constitutes as "involvement".

Where did you get that idea from ?

And what other TDs meet with murderers on their release to discuss issues related to law & order and political policies ?

SF repeatedly claim that it wasn't anything to do with them or the IRA (thereby implying that the ceasefire was upheld), and yet still claim that these thugs qualified under the GFA.

Yet again, they want it both ways.