Record Label Looking For Bands *MOD WARNING IN POST #1*

Waking-Dreams

Learn to help yourself as much as you can is all I'll say.

Whats the harm in sending them a PM and finding out some more information?

What's the harm in going to see a palm reader either? It all depends on what you expect you will get out of it based on what evidence you have gathered beforehand.

It just seems as if this crowd shot itself in the foot by not having a website set-up, and the nature of the post as well for that matter gives off the impression of good intentions soaked in amateurism. Again, nothing wrong with wanting to help, but in order to be taken seriously, one has to present some level of professionalism. Otherwise, as a band, you don't know what kind of person/people you're dealing with and how useful they actually are.

Case in point, a few years ago I was in band very briefly with a guy who was very much looking to get signed and tour the world. He had big ideas, and big ambitions. Yet just like you see on Dragon's Den when it goes all wrong, he was one of those manic, nonsensical, crazy, all over the place people – his "pitches" just sounded like those of a dreamer every time he spoke to the rest of the band and other people about us doing something that would help the band and further our progress, all based in unreality too. I think he had some deep issues about succeeding and wanting to make something of himself. I felt sorry for the guy.

Anyways, we went our separate ways but then months later he resurfaced, putting together his own “production company” for unsigned bands to help them get signed, get their music out there, make money, forge a career, etc – pretty much the kind of thing that this crowd here are offering it seems. Yet, in my example, this is the last person you would want to get involved with or waste your time listening to. Again, he had no website yet (just a myspace page), said everything was in the making, he was negotiating with record labels, the list goes on...

In the end it never went anywhere.

I'm not suggesting the people running the IMPA are anything like this now, but it's just something to think about in general. Don't overestimate what other people can do for you just because they have good intentions. That guy I mentioned had good intentions too, though I wouldn't entrust him with others people's music because he couldn't even handle his own affairs. He was a mess.

Again, people set-up these things to help. But there's no criteria for qualifications. It could be a bedroom warrior who just wants to feel important by having a “production company” that promotes bands no more effectively than you or I could by spending an evening on MySpace/Facebook messaging people.

Then again, tons of bands act like amateurs in a state of arrested development so no wonder they're open to working with such people. But I think you'll find bands and artists who have their heads screwed on tend not to waste their time and energy with such ventures. They can see the wood for the trees.

Have you ever been approached by someone at a gig who claims they have a website that will review your music, or have a podcast and will play your music? Of course, there's no harm in giving them a disc you say, but what if the amount of people they reach is almost no one, or worse, they don't even have a website and just scored a free disc from you for nothing? These people are out there.

It's just food for thought. That's all I'm offering.

gibson

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

What's the harm in going to see a palm reader either? It all depends on what you expect you will get out of it based on what evidence you have gathered beforehand.

I have no set expectations what so ever merely seeing what they have to say and that will prove how professional they actually are

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Have you ever been approached by someone at a gig who claims they have a website that will review your music, or have a podcast and will play your music? Of course, there's no harm in giving them a disc you say, but what if the amount of people they reach is almost no one, or worse, they don't even have a website and just scored a free disc from you for nothing? These people are out there.

It's just food for thought. That's all I'm offering.

And what if that same producer even reached 1 important person with that disc? How are you gonna know unless you try....all for the sake of maybe loosing 1 copy of a burnt cd? Not a huge price to pay in my opinion.

In fact Ive seen plenty of people after gigs giving out their CDs for free. I dont see how it can be a bad idea when you never know who might hear it. It doesnt cost much to get a few blank Cds and burn a few copies at very least, its not like your giving out bars of gold!

Zendali

Tonight I decided to explore this thread as I was understandably curious, given that I started a broadly-similar thread called: "Looking For A Record Deal?" I empathised immediately with the OP of this thread, irrespective of the grammatical weakness of his opening post. My gut reaction was that maybe this guy`s first language isnt English but that he`s built up an extensive network of music biz contacts over the years,(same as me),relocated to Ireland, and is offering a conduit to the industry for unsigned artists and bands. That`s a healthy contribution straight away in my book and the more of these outlets the better. It`s widely acknowledged in the global music industry that Ireland is a great source of talent and the success of acts from this island is completely disproportionate to it`s (relatively) tiny population.
As I began reading the thread and noticing how the OP was being assailed from all sides by an excitable lynch mob, I was glad to read the mod`s intervention asking to give the guy a chance.
The OP was offering a free service to the thousands of unsigned acts out there and given the chronic congestion unleashed by the internet, every avenue of opportunity is more than welcome.
Then I got to a post from "Waking-Dreams" on page 2 and it beggared belief. In one breath he was telling us: "It just seems there`s a vast sea of people who are all for "helping" but havent put together something that doesnt smack of amateurism masquerading as semi-professionalism". I`ll be notifying some 55 contacts (and counting) among labels, publishers, management companies and music journos/radio producers. The "amateur" inference is a tad annoying, as "Waking-Dreams" sits on the fence sniper-like while taking pot shots at those trying to help, while offering zilch himself by way of support or opportunity for unsigned acts. It`s one thing to splash about in a paddling pool of idealism but pragmatism is uppermost here, not fanciful ideals. .
His second point literally put the brakes on my reading the thread any further: "To be clear I dont condone personal attacks or rude insults and put-downs" Hello?! Am I reading the words of an aspiring Fianna Fail politician here, ready to run with the hare and chase with the hound? Ummm...When you signed off your post with that hackneyed cliche: "if it`s too good to be true then it probably is...you dont get something for nothing..." you forgot the one that makes up the cliche trinity: "There`s no such thing as a free lunch". Try thinking outside the box, believe in Karma, give and take, help and reward, etc etc

rhythm90

Hi mate,

I have to say I think it's very commendable what you guys are trying to do... The lack of a decent Irish music scene in Ireland is a total sickener considering there are so many talented and dedicated musicians and bands the length and breadth of the country who will never get a look in unless they fly to foreign shores and give it a go there!

My band Aggro-Culture (Dublin / Wexford based hard rock / metal) would be interested in hearing some more from you.

http://www.myspace.com/aggroculturehome - some tunes up there.

Thanks for your time.

MilanPan!c

Zendali wrote: »

Tonight I decided to explore this thread as I was understandably curious, given that I started a broadly-similar thread called: "Looking For A Record Deal?" I empathised immediately with the OP of this thread, irrespective of the grammatical weakness of his opening post. My gut reaction was that maybe this guy`s first language isnt English but that he`s built up an extensive network of music biz contacts over the years,(same as me),relocated to Ireland, and is offering a conduit to the industry for unsigned artists and bands. That`s a healthy contribution straight away in my book and the more of these outlets the better. It`s widely acknowledged in the global music industry that Ireland is a great source of talent and the success of acts from this island is completely disproportionate to it`s (relatively) tiny population.

As I began reading the thread and noticing how the OP was being assailed from all sides by an excitable lynch mob, I was glad to read the mod`s intervention asking to give the guy a chance.

The OP was offering a free service to the thousands of unsigned acts out there and given the chronic congestion unleashed by the internet, every avenue of opportunity is more than welcome.

Then I got to a post from "Waking-Dreams" on page 2 and it beggared belief. In one breath he was telling us: "It just seems there`s a vast sea of people who are all for "helping" but havent put together something that doesnt smack of amateurism masquerading as semi-professionalism". I`ll be notifying some 55 contacts (and counting) among labels, publishers, management companies and music journos/radio producers. The "amateur" inference is a tad annoying, as "Waking-Dreams" sits on the fence sniper-like while taking pot shots at those trying to help, while offering zilch himself by way of support or opportunity for unsigned acts. It`s one thing to splash about in a paddling pool of idealism but pragmatism is uppermost here, not fanciful ideals. .

His second point literally put the brakes on my reading the thread any further: "To be clear I dont condone personal attacks or rude insults and put-downs" Hello?! Am I reading the words of an aspiring Fianna Fail politician here, ready to run with the hare and chase with the hound? Ummm...When you signed off your post with that hackneyed cliche: "if it`s too good to be true then it probably is...you dont get something for nothing..." you forgot the one that makes up the cliche trinity: "There`s no such thing as a free lunch". Try thinking outside the box, believe in Karma, give and take, help and reward, etc etc

It's funny, isn't it.

I had this same issue with another poster, who couldn't understand why I thought calling someone, "probably too good to be true" without actually talking to the poster, would be considering not only rudely ignorant, but self-destructive.

That too good to be true person has opened up a HUGE number of doors for me and is a friend now.

If I had listened to that pessimist I would be in a MUCH WORSE position personally.

What a lot of people need to do is learn that you can't really base a whole heck of a lot on people's OP. Instead, PM the poster and engage personally. Don't let uninformed comments stop you either.

Be optimistic AND smart.

It's possible.

Waking-Dreams

In fact Ive seen plenty of people after gigs giving out their CDs for free. I dont see how it can be a bad idea when you never know who might hear it. It doesnt cost much to get a few blank Cds and burn a few copies at very least, its not like your giving out bars of gold!

Have a look at most review websites. They typically state, “NO MP3's or copied discs. We require an original copy for review”. Giving out blank copies is one thing; handing out original demos to people who claim they'll give you a review in their site with zero readership is another thing. That's what I'm talking about.

Now, Zendali, would you like a hug?

As I began reading the thread and noticing how the OP was being assailed from all sides by an excitable lynch mob

I'll agree some of the initial posts were sarcastic but this is the Internet, it's trial by fire. Someone makes claims that appeal to people's desire to further themselves musically, and people will naturally look for some evidence that they can back those claims up with. A lack of a web presence in this day and age just isn't a smart move. Sorry.

The "amateur" inference is a tad annoying, as "Waking-Dreams" sits on the fence sniper-like while taking pot shots at those trying to help, while offering zilch himself by way of support or opportunity for unsigned acts.

Sits on the fence? Offering zilch to bands? So some words of advice and observation is deemed zilch by your standards unless it leads to a pat on the back for “good effort” or an opportunity for unsigned bands (I offer them some industry contacts?). I have received PM's from people thanking me for my input into the various threads here and there's a few thanks from some users at the bottom of my posts in this forum. So, yeah, zilch offered indeed.

I know you don't like what I have to say Zendali but with respect, this is a public forum where everyone should have their say. I think I have been most diplomatic in not wanting to piss people off but sometimes you have to ask the hard questions like, “is this for real?” People tend to get defensive when their self-esteem is threatened, but that's a part of life. You have to learn to take a bit of criticism and stand up for yourself and your ideas. Why haven't the IMPA come back and defended their venture by posting more info which would put people's concerns to rest? I'd love it if they did. I'm happy to be proven wrong. But my posts aren't really about IMPA, but about these kind of ventures in general. Bands should think things through and make smart choices, otherwise they're just acting on impulse. Like a consumer who buys a product they thought they wanted but turned out they didn't need.

But pointing out where the guys went wrong is somehow “negative” in your mind and is a “personal attack, rude insult, or put-down”? So, we all have to be nice to each other? No one can say anything “negative” or make a criticism because we all come here to feel good about ourselves, and it's the thought that counts.

All I have ever said on this forum, is that bands can help themselves more than they think. Instead, many of them are convinced they're powerless and badly need the help of anyone (even people who have no proven track record of their qualifications or use). I mean, what do bands usually ask of musicians when they try-out at an audition?

“Who have you played with before? What experience do you have? OK, let's hear you play.” Imagine, the reply they got was, “Emm, I'm working on it, I'll get back to you soon, but I really can help your band's sound!”

So if the band were to criticise and disregard this person, by your definition, they would be “negative”.

And the FF comment was bit absurd but ironic coming from yourself.

I noticed in the “looking for a record deal thread” you ignored the very first question you were asked.

What will your role be in brokering these deals? Can you direct the readers of this board to previous deals you have been involved with? What is your track record? Out of , say, 200 artists that you have brought to publishers or labels how many have been offered deals?

I overlooked this, but someone brought it up after I left the thread. Yet, your answer would have put the tactics of most politicians to shame.

While living in London for several years I ran a music night in a pub venue. I also managed a couple of acts, studied Contract Law, and attended music industry seminars. I networked extensively during this time and scouted on a freelance basis for several labels including Epic, Polydor and Nude (Suede`s label). I also scouted songs for a couple of publishers, so I`m not exactly wet behind the ears as to how this industry works - or at least what`s left of the industry.

That still didn't answer the initial question at all of what deals/bands you were involved with and how they got on. But well played nonetheless.

Look, Zendali, I know it seems like I'm out to sh*t in your cereal but it's nothing personal. I'm speaking my mind like everyone else here does. I have studied music business for 3 years and have been out there in the real world playing in bands, locally and across Canada, interacting with lots of musicians and listening to the myriad testimonies, stories, and viewpoints of other seasoned players. I have my own views on the whole topic of the music industry and what people think about it and what they want from it. It's a fascinating subject about the human condition, to want validation and acceptance from people but on a larger scale than their social circle can provide.

You and I are on polar opposites, like an atheist and a faith head, so I'm happy to stay clear because I have nothing constructive or useful to offer from your point of view.

all the stars

gibson wrote: »

In fact Ive seen plenty of people after gigs giving out their CDs for free. I dont see how it can be a bad idea when you never know who might hear it. It doesnt cost much to get a few blank Cds and burn a few copies at very least, its not like your giving out bars of gold!

True, but if you have invested quite a bit of time, € and effort on recording, writing and getting good mixing/mastering/great production/Recording studio time etc on your CD - why would you give it away free? Its cost x amount to make it and then give it away free? Even asking €5 is probably not even going to chip away at the cost of buying blank CD's...
I understand why people would do it, but i also dont understand why they would want to, i know people who are generally more than happy to pay for music - even if it is available free on various websites, people dont mind supporting good music and Artists, It helps them be able to afford making more...(i'm one of them, and i know lots of others).

MilanPan!c

all the stars wrote: »

True, but if you have invested quite a bit of time, € and effort on recording, writing and getting good mixing/mastering/great production/Recording studio time etc on your CD - why would you give it away free? Its cost x amount to make it and then give it away free? Even asking €5 is probably not even going to chip away at the cost of buying blank CD's...
I understand why people would do it, but i also dont understand why they would want to, i know people who are generally more than happy to pay for music - even if it is available free on various websites, people dont mind supporting good music and Artists, It helps them be able to afford making more...(i'm one of them, and i know lots of others).

I'm less on the fence.

I think that good music will push people to buy it, at least in a venue setting...

save the freebies for the industry folks...

people can listen to my music online for free, but I'm not giving them copies...

I know that's not the current rage, but at the end of the day, I want people to value what I do, so I attach a value to it.

all the stars

Clearly i mis-understood, you just verbalised what i was thinking. i'm agreeing with you

gibson

all the stars wrote: »

True, but if you have invested quite a bit of time, € and effort on recording, writing and getting good mixing/mastering/great production/Recording studio time etc on your CD - why would you give it away free? Its cost x amount to make it and then give it away free? Even asking €5 is probably not even going to chip away at the cost of buying blank CD's...
I understand why people would do it, but i also dont understand why they would want to, i know people who are generally more than happy to pay for music - even if it is available free on various websites, people dont mind supporting good music and Artists, It helps them be able to afford making more...(i'm one of them, and i know lots of others).

Ye thats true but I suppose I meant maybe a less polished expensive version, maybe something that didnt really break the bank. I dunno I suppose theres pro's and con's as with everything. I can see what you mean about spending a lot of money why would you want to give it away for free and its probably true that if people want it they will pay but I suppose you never know who might pass on a CD or say to a mate oh have a listen to this its a band I heard the other night

MilanPan!c

gibson wrote: »

Ye thats true but I suppose I meant maybe a less polished expensive version, maybe something that didnt really break the bank. I dunno I suppose theres pro's and con's as with everything. I can see what you mean about spending a lot of money why would you want to give it away for free and its probably true that if people want it they will pay but I suppose you never know who might pass on a CD or say to a mate oh have a listen to this its a band I heard the other night

I think in this day and age emailing a MySpace link is far more likely.

It's not that you should NEVER do it, but I think it's a silly policy, if you're trying to be serious.

gibson

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I think in this day and age emailing a MySpace link is far more likely.

It's not that you should NEVER do it, but I think it's a silly policy, if you're trying to be serious.

Definitely true about the myspace link but then you could have that link on the CD itself as well or a website link to tell people where they can find out more about you. I suppose I just think the more you put it out there in as many mediums as possible the better chance there is of someone hearing it...not just a talent scout or someone to do with a record label but people who may potentially become fans of your music.

but hey im only guessing! im not signed to a label so only my opinion!

Zendali

Waking-Dreams: I`m not looking for an ego massage or even a modicum of thanks I was angered because of your barbed comments to the OP and, by implication, to myself or anyone else who`s trying to give added exposure to unsigned acts. I agree that we`d both like to hear more from the OP of this thread, though from my own experience he`s probably
submerged under an avalanche of music replies. The main point to consider is that he, like I, is offering a free service to unsigned bands and musicians. From my own experience over the past few months, such a voluntary service can be unbelievably time-consuming, even though hearing such a variety of new music can be a compensation of sorts. But above all else, it`s the most practical solution for unsigned acts to further their careers...in my opinion anyway.

Artists and bands need industry support to progress to the next level. Fact. And I realise that you and I are diametrically opposed on this point, where you advocate that acts should be self-reliant and carve out their own careers independently of labels, management etc. While it may seem like an admirable goal, where the band or artist do everything for themselves and maximise the resources of the net, it`s frankly a romantic notion and a chronically inept business model. Facebooking and online hustling is all well and good but it pales beside the impact that a concerted industry campaign can have. Ask yourself,how many acts in Glastonbury this weekend are playing there without industry support, or at least have had some input from the industry along the way?

It`s pointless citing examples of bloggers who have generated massive online followings. These are writers and fashion/music/movie reviewers, not unsigned music acts. And even Crystal Swing and Susan Boyle are just freakish examples of a viral in bushfire mode. Many of those who replied to me would echo my views on this and have grown exasperated with the type of approach you propose.They tried the DIY route and came to the conclusion that the net is merely another tool or means to an end - but never an end in itself. Essentially they want investment to fund a producer and a quality recording, along with some money for tour support. They also want management to help structure their plans and to tout on their behalf to labels and publishers. Personally I think it borders on rank stupidity to ignore a whole array of industry specialists, people with vast years of experience and an in-depth knowledge of promoting bands and artists.

If I was planning on opening a garage then I`d first have to source my stock. I`d be loathe to open a showroom with no cars on view. In the same way my website is a work in progress, where I`m currently liaising with the web designer on design and content issues while compiling a list of acts to showcase. I`ve no burning wish to blow my vuvuzela here and boast of past achievements, inviting a further damburst of management requests on top of the music replies I`m already trying to cope with. And besides, it`s totally irrelevant to the purposes of my website, which is to showcase new talent to the various strands of the industry. As I`ve stressed before, all I`m doing here is asking acts to mail me their myspace links, from which I`ll compile a (subjective) list of 20 acts to appear in my site`s Gallery page. I`ll then hit the industry trail and notify them of the site`s existence. If any deals come about because of the site, then that`s entirely between the industry party and the relevant act. The bands and artists who appear on the site will be doing so free of charge. My primary goal will be to generate visitor hits, in order to attract sponsors to fund the site. `

Waking-Dreams

I was angered because of your barbed comments to the OP and, by implication, to myself or anyone else who's trying to give added exposure to unsigned acts.

Barbed by your definition because my comments simply highlighted the unprofessional approach in an age where you yourself keep mentioning there being a sea of amateur bands? So, you openly acknowledge that there are tons of amateur bands saturating the music scene but likewise, there are no amateur individuals who try to help out others and do a lousy job in the presentation? I'm pretty sure you've quickly overlooked bands who didn't come across as professional and now you're asking us all to suspend judgement and think positive? Sometimes, you have to call a spade a spade.

I didn't come out and say, “Jeeez, learn how to spell first dudz LOL!!” You don't seem to like any negative criticism because by it's very nature, it is the opposite of positive. And the part about the implication to people like yourself is just the emotional part of your brain doing it's job, defending your self-esteem. I get it from some people now and then. People who believe in faith healers, homeopathy, mediums and psychics, retort and play the hurt feelings card when I happen to make a passing comment in conversation they hear, on how bogus the whole thing is, when I never actually attacked them outright (for example, pointing the finger, “you're an idiot for believing that stuff haha”). It just happened to be something they identified with; a little too much I might add.

Do you realise how ridiculous I would sound if I asked people to refrain from speaking badly about my favourite movie, book, or band? Or if and when they did, I would start throwing the toys out of the pram and begin to sulk?

...you advocate that acts should be self-reliant and carve out their own careers independently of labels, management etc. While it may seem like an admirable goal, where the band or artist do everything for themselves and maximise the resources of the net, it's frankly a romantic notion and a chronically inept business model. Facebooking and online hustling is all well and good but it pales beside the impact that a concerted industry campaign can have. Ask yourself, how many acts in Glastonbury this weekend are playing there without industry support, or at least have had some input from the industry along the way?

I advocate that acts who don't have big mainstream commercial appeal (the kind of appeal such as Lady Gaga, U2, Coldplay, etc) do not need to burden themselves with signing up to an industry whose goal is to make money. People who don't fall into that category can ignore me — and good luck in becoming super famous by the way. Honestly.

But here's the thing: most bands flirt with the idea that with a little help they can become really big. They overestimate their commercial appeal.

The people running record labels are very clever.

1. They know that most musicians think they're really good and have what it takes.

2. They know that nearly most of them will probably fail commercially.

3. They know that people don’t like admitting they’ve been had or have made bad decisions.

4. They know that most people will slink away quietly after an unsuccessful attempt at becoming a professional musician, or will rationalise it in a way that doesn't hurt their self-esteem, or become so deluded to the point where they never give up even when the writing is on the wall.

5. And they know that most of their applicants don’t know how to investigate the ‘industry’ and prepare accordingly and know what's ahead and what they might have to sacrifice.

But it's the same broken record with you Zendali and your ilk. “Show me unsigned bands that get to play big festivals; get national airplay; get featured in the pro-industry glossy magazines, make loads of money.”

It's a logical fallacy; a straw man argument. The music industry is built on commerce, not music. Music is the sales vehicle. Humans have been making music for a very, very long time and we are now in a position where one doesn't need to spend a fortune to make a good album and share it with people across the world.

No unsigned band will ever take the place of a signed band at a festival like Glastonbury for a very good reason. And it's the same reason why you won't read about them in NME, Hotpress or hear them on the radio. Because record labels have their own artists to trumpet and bring in the money. Labels take out magazine ads so who do you think the magazines are going to write about? Why would it concern itself with bands who don't generate them revenue? They wouldn't waste their time promoting the music of other bands (who may be equally talented, just not equally commercial).

The unsigned community is full of people who are as good, if not potentially better than those who have been fortunate enough to reside in a distro-bottleneck and that is why the gatekeepers and their supporters are so smug and dismissive when it comes to talking down the DIY bands. Hard cash sales are the primary indicator of value to them.

Unsigned is not going to replace professional but it will supplement and even expose mainstream media for it's commerce driven logic. This is the inevitable outcome of millions of people interacting on a daily basis whose tastes are more diverse than ever. You would have us trusting a decreasing number of dubious gatekeepers who chase the mass market with fervour, bleeding out the different and non-mass-appealing.

It's pointless citing examples of bloggers who have generated massive online followings. These are writers and fashion/music/movie reviewers, not unsigned music acts.

What is the real difference? It's still content which people consume, right? People don't discover new bands by seeing a poster in HMV and buying the record; they're hearing them online through peer recommendations (just like they always have, only more so now). And there are a sea of amateur writers too; the web is saturated with them, yet the really good ones manage to stand out and find an audience. How bizzare.

Many of those who replied to me would echo my views on this and have grown exasperated with the type of approach you propose. They tried the DIY route and came to the conclusion that the net is merely another tool or means to an end - but never an end in itself.

They tried the DIY approach? How hard did they try? Were they; are they any good of a band? Humans are hard-wired to seek instant-gratification. We want instant, push-button results. Have a look at people in a really long queue next time you're out in public. Some are patient and OK with it, but others get very frustrated, annoyed and want a shortcut. In general, we hate waiting for anything; look at how people use financial credit these days, no self-restraint at all! Bands typically make a balls of DIY and then reason it's never going to work for them like they want it to work. A self-fulfilling prophecy or what?

Personally, I think it borders on rank stupidity to ignore a whole array of industry specialists, people with vast years of experience and an in-depth knowledge of promoting bands and artists.

It makes sense to sign a deal if you are the type of artist who can sell records by the barrel load (pop stars and mainstream music bands) but what percentage of bands who seek labels even fall into that category? Of course, the independent labels are happy to clean up on those lesser acts if they think they can make some money, while the margins of profit for the band are not so great because their appeal is more limited and so niche.

The media have caused this by the way. By pushing celebs and personalities in front of us they have in turn ignited a desire for us all to become famous and well-known. Rags to riches stories are perpetuated to keep us chasing the dream and buying into their lies and myths. We hear a couple of real-life examples and that's all the positive, confirmatory evidence we need.

But I think you've got me all wrong. I never said a record label was useless for everyone.

I've no burning wish to blow my vuvuzela here and boast of past achievements, inviting a further damburst of management requests on top of the music replies I'm already trying to cope with.

Boast of past achievements? You were asked a basic question, just like a musician at an audition would be asked by any band... What kind of an answer would this be? “Well, I've no wish to boast of past bands I played in, you'll just have to take my word for it. Send me your songs and I'll go over them and give you my opinion”. If any bands have recruited members who were so secretive please post here and do tell.

That's some way of sidestepping the awkward question. Personally, I don't care that much whether you answer it or not but it was worth pointing out and I applaud the person who did think of asking you.

And besides, it's totally irrelevant to the purposes of my website, which is to showcase new talent to the various strands of the industry.

A part of me is tempted to say, your whole aim in starting the record deal thread was to attract responses from Irish artists with the lure of industry-ears and contacts (through your producer friend, etc), and then transition the whole thing into it just being you cherry picking all the good acts and setting-up your own website to showcase and attract some industry attention and advertisement revenue in the process (maybe, include your own band among the gallery of artists too?) But, it's idle speculation, so disregard.

I had a similar idea myself once many moons ago after I graduated from college. Set-up a website that would “represent” the best of unsigned bands, all gathered under the one URL where quality control would be paramount and then try and gain some industry attention, with the band I was playing with at the time included in the bunch too.

Know why I didn't pursue it? Because as much as I liked to feel important and do something positive, I admitted to myself that it was kind of pompous. Why would bands need to be associated with such a self-serving website? Are they incapable of using the net and contacting labels themselves? At the end of the day, whoever was listening would still be making their own judgement, no matter where they hear the music.

As you say yourself:

If any deals come about because of the site, then that's entirely between the industry party and the relevant act.

Of course, we all know a talent scout doesn't call the shots about who gets signed. They submit their chosen acts and see what the response is from the real business people. “Oh, but they're snowed under with bands!” No doubt, and always will be, but you're flogging a dead horse with this whole suggestion of, “I can get their attention better than unsigned bands can”. Really? Then why do you creatively avoid the question which asks for your track record? Oh right, it will trigger a possible explosion in your inbox (the same bloated inbox you seem to keep mentioning every 2nd or 3rd post). Yes, highlighting how busy and in demand you are is always a good tactic.

Labels also look for acts to sign too, y'know? And do you know who they're looking for? Bands and artists who are already out there banking! Bands that don't sit online all day looking for talent scouts on message boards to help them out. Bands who aren't sitting around bitching about there being so much crap online and that it's so hard for them to get heard anymore.

The labels are looking for bands who have their heads screwed on and understand how the game is played; bands who have done well for themselves without any help save for their own hard work ethos; not dreamers hoping someone is going to turn up backstage and say, “Come into my office next week and we'll talk” like something out of Wayne's World or other cliched movies.

Waking-Dreams

Believe it or not, I actually do care. You would class me as a cynic, ridiculing others for my own amusement, when I have actually offered some very good info and advice, which I'll add, I didn't arrive at overnight. That took quite a bit of trial and error and first-hand experience and college education, listening to many people and reading the works of many skilled authors.

I was overly ambitious and naive once upon a time and I'd hate to see bands make the same mistakes I made; so much time, money and energy wasted, when there are alternatives.

I've never said, “bah, just quit and give up!” to any musicians, but that they should at least acknowledge that it's a game, where there are no hard and fast rules and unpredictability is a given. Your desire and sense of entitlement are meaningless and will actually hinder the likelihood of deep satisfaction because you're setting yourself up for a big fall if you don't achieve your idealised ambition.

I have always understood that the power of positive thinking works for some people because it empowers them (psychologically and emotionally) to act to achieve their desires in the face of life's challenges and occasional bouts of self-doubt. There is nothing wrong with thinking positively but it is crucially more important to think such thoughts in reality, not base them on raw desire or what you want to be true. Yet, the brain has a habit of sugar coating things to comfort us, to maintain that feel-good sensation inside. For example - in the extreme - lots of people take comfort in the “powers” of psychic mediums who communicate with their dead relatives; doesn't mean it's empirically true but hey, what's the harm some might say, right? Well, it can be damaging to very vulnerable people, who spend a great deal of their time and money, hoping for some kind of outcome that will bring them joy.

“Humans are pattern-seeking, storytelling animals in search of deep meaning behind the seemingly random events of day-to-day life.” – Michael Shermer

Have a read of, 'A Mind Of Its Own: How Your Brain Distorts And Deceives' by Cordelia Fine. You'd be amazed how much irrationality clouds our judgement, and how emotions add a gloss of their own, colouring and confusing our opinions. People are very skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for not-so-smart reasons.

While it is true our lives might be more comfortable when our desires are met, the universe doesn't work that way. It doesn't owe you a damn thing to be blunt about it. People should learn to focus on what they already have, not on what they lack. Be thankful you're not one of those poor individuals who gets to work 14+ hours per day sewing shoes for Nike and living on a pittance. That you even exist is an astonishing feat. And, thinking on a grander scale, there are so many people who are never going to experience what you already have because they're never going to be born.

“The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.” – Richard Dawkins

If you don't become the most popular band in your local city, or a famous musician or make a living from your music, it's not the end of the world.

MilanPan!c

The thing is WD, and you readily admit this yourself, there is not ACTUALLY another option for people that accept the risk, conciously, but still wish to TRY.

It seems that you think one can not conciously accept their own chances, conciously, and still desire to try.

I disagree.

I also don't think it's entirely, note the word entirely, a crap shoot.

I know I have seen the same attibutes in the people that I PERSONALLY know that have been successful and I know that by adopting the same techniques and attitudes I can help my chances, meaningfully.

I know this because I've seen and continue to see it work in my personal situation.

I honestly think the most prevalent attitude in any creative scene is pessimism, followed by cynicism.

Honest passion is WAY down the list.

So, c'mon man, be realistic about the people involved. We're not all pie-in-the-sky, delusional dreamers.

Our aim may be high, but the world would be an awful place if people didn't aim high.

I appreciate your info, but as an ideology it probably blinds you, or at least leads you to publicly discount talented, intelligent, clued-up folks.

No offense man. Just be completely honest. People do make it, lots for VERY good reasons, and there's currently NO BETTER alternative to labels.

Waking-Dreams

Sceptics and debunkers are often accused of being cynical, cold, negative people but who makes those accusations? Usually, it's the people who believe what they believe because it brings them comfort.

Meh, what do I care if a band wants to sign a deal, go on the road and then have to quit because they can't afford it anymore? There are plenty of bands out there right now in that position, barely making ends meat and maybe having all their relatives/wives/girlfriends bailing them out of financial woes. That's OK if you're 18-25 years old I guess, we've all been helped out, but to keep putting yourself in that situation because you have high hopes for a 'way of life' as a musician?

Some bands go through members like underwear because some of the people in the bands inevitably discover that it's not worth it; the pay-offs don't outweigh the negatives. And yet one or two permanent members of the group stay on to perpetuate the cycle.

The thing is MP, is that touring is a necessary part of the record label sales model. Except, that it can really mess up your 'outside the band life' stability, which I highlighted in the record deal thread - I'm not repeating here.

People can aim high sure, but keep a foot in reality. Each of us is one of 6.7 billion people in this world. Why are you or I so special? Where did this entitlement attitude you see in musicians come from?

Of course people 'make it' in the music industry, and so do people at winning the lottery. I don't want to rehash the whole argument again, because musicians hate thinking that their fate was pure luck. The mind is a funny thing. When we succeed it seems only “right” that we did, we earned it, yet when we fail, we tend to rationalise it and deflect any responsibility or claim mitigating circumstances , “oh well, guess I'm just not commercial enough for the industry”...

In my experience people have a strong desire to believe what they want to believe, to an extent, even when evidence might be pointing to the opposite of a belief. I myself used to be unaware of the level to which I believed things without any good supporting evidence.

That book I recommended is great for opening your eyes to the false notions that are projected around contemporary society and to help you spot them.

And no, of course you're not all pie-in-the-sky, delusional dreamers. But I have a gut feeling that a healthy percentage of Zendail's inbox is from such people.

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Sceptics and debunkers are often accused of being cynical, cold, negative people but who makes those accusations? Usually, it's the people who believe what they believe because it brings them comfort.

Meh, what do I care if a band wants to sign a deal, go on the road and then have to quit because they can't afford it anymore? There are plenty of bands out there right now in that position, barely making ends meat and maybe having all their relatives/wives/girlfriends bailing them out of financial woes. That's OK if you're 18-25 years old I guess, we've all been helped out, but to keep putting yourself in that situation because you have high hopes for a 'way of life' as a musician?

Some bands go through members like underwear because some of the people in the bands inevitably discover that it's not worth it; the pay-offs don't outweigh the negatives. And yet one or two permanent members of the group stay on to perpetuate the cycle.

The thing is MP, is that touring is a necessary part of the record label sales model. Except, that it can really mess up your 'outside the band life' stability, which I highlighted in the record deal thread - I'm not repeating here.

People can aim high sure, but keep a foot in reality. Each of us is one of 6.7 billion people in this world. Why are you or I so special? Where did this entitlement attitude you see in musicians come from?

Of course people 'make it' in the music industry, and so do people at winning the lottery. I don't want to rehash the whole argument again, because musicians hate thinking that their fate was pure luck. The mind is a funny thing. When we succeed it seems only “right” that we did, we earned it, yet when we fail, we tend to rationalise it and deflect any responsibility or claim mitigating circumstances , “oh well, guess I'm just not commercial enough for the industry”...

In my experience people have a strong desire to believe what they want to believe, to an extent, even when evidence might be pointing to the opposite of a belief. I myself used to be unaware of the level to which I believed things without any good supporting evidence.

That book I recommended is great for opening your eyes to the false notions that are projected around contemporary society and to help you spot them.

And no, of course you're not all pie-in-the-sky, delusional dreamers. But I have a gut feeling that a healthy percentage of Zendail's inbox is from such people.

It's funny, we always end up here.

I do think it's a bit unfair to state your "reality" based opinions in such a way as to make a huge percentage of musicians interested in pursuing their dreams look unreasonable and setting themselves up for a heartbreaking fall.

I also think that Z is right to say that you should probably, for everyone's sanity, choose your language very carefully when making insinuations about others... I know you're a very smart guy, we've had many of these conversations. If I had any advice for you if would be to make your advice seem less like criticism, less like you're telling people to wake up and see your truth.

Just present your facts and opinions in a less directed way and you'll probably spend less time responding to people who were honestly offended by your tone and approach.

I know, I really do, from our conversations, that you're not on here to insult people, etc., but if I just casually read some of the things you've written I might have a different opinion.

I think the "truth" about people's chances is an important thing for people, all people taking chances that is, to bear in mind. But we need chancers.

Ireland could really use a creative boom and people like Z (and he's def not the only one) are NOT asking for money AND not claiming to make folks rich and famous... it's not a trap... these folks are passionate people with connections that are doing there bit to help the scene, musicians and of course themselves.

I personally hope we have MORE people busting their ass to create a world-class scene in this country.

If that happened well, all involved won't all be famous, but they'll be part of history... and that's not dreaming, that's the truth.

Savman

To the bone, Waking-Dreams, to the bone. But can't disagree with any of it, truth is a harsh mistress.

The thing is tho, Musicians are just Artists who, by their very nature, are dreamers. Trying to mash that into some kind of commercial logic is extremely difficult, most simply can't ever think of their music/songs as a product on a shelf akin to bread and milk at the local Tesco.

Waking-Dreams wrote:

While it is true our lives might be more comfortable when our desires are met, the universe doesn't work that way. It doesn't owe you a damn thing to be blunt about it. People should learn to focus on what they already have, not on what they lack. Be thankful you're not one of those poor individuals who gets to work 14+ hours per day sewing shoes for Nike and living on a pittance. That you even exist is an astonishing feat.

Smashing post this!!! Sums up my sentiments exactly, I wish to join your fellowship. Where can I send my cheque :pac:

Waking-Dreams

MilanPan!c wrote: »

It's funny, we always end up here.

I do think it's a bit unfair to state your "reality" based opinions in such a way as to make a huge percentage of musicians interested in pursuing their dreams look unreasonable and setting themselves up for a heartbreaking fall.

I also think that Z is right to say that you should probably, for everyone's sanity, choose your language very carefully when making insinuations about others... I know you're a very smart guy, we've had many of these conversations. If I had any advice for you if would be to make your advice seem less like criticism, less like you're telling people to wake up and see your truth.

Just present your facts and opinions in a less directed way and you'll probably spend less time responding to people who were honestly offended by your tone and approach.

I know, I really do, from our conversations, that you're not on here to insult people, etc., but if I just casually read some of the things you've written I might have a different opinion.

I think the "truth" about people's chances is an important thing for people, all people taking chances that is, to bear in mind. But we need chancers.

Ireland could really use a creative boom and people like Z (and he's def not the only one) are NOT asking for money AND not claiming to make folks rich and famous... it's not a trap... these folks are passionate people with connections that are doing there bit to help the scene, musicians and of course themselves.

I personally hope we have MORE people busting their ass to create a world-class scene in this country.

If that happened well, all involved won't all be famous, but they'll be part of history... and that's not dreaming, that's the truth.

I do think it's a bit unfair to state your "reality" based opinions in such a way as to make a huge percentage of musicians interested in pursuing their dreams look unreasonable and setting themselves up for a heartbreaking fall.

Really? Do you disagree there's not a massive number of musicians and artists trying to 'make it' and have high hopes that lean a little too much on the side of wishful thinking? So, who are all those people who line up in droves to audition for X-Factor and other talent shows? That's just one example. The online behaviours, attitudes and communications of bands also indicates such an unwavering belief. I wouldn't assume that the majority of musicians are that way without looking at the evidence first.

And even still, what musicians are going to agree they are delusional? It' an oxymoron; a catch-22. I mean, we've all witnessed the X-Factor contestant who gets rejected and turned down by the judges, yet defiantly walks away saying, “yeah well, I will become a great singer, you'll see” then cries outside the hallway. And what do some people at home watching do? Some laugh out loud at how bad they are. I think it's a little cruel, but the producers know it makes for entertaining television and like just reality TV, it allows people at home to feel better about themselves... “Well, at least I'm not that bad/desperate/ugly!”

Just present your facts and opinions in a less directed way and you'll probably spend less time responding to people who were honestly offended by your tone and approach.

It's a point well-made and well-taken. I guess I feel that sometimes you just need to shake the sh*t out of people, because a less-direct, polite approach in persuading others can be sometimes futile, plus their minds aren't voluntarily open to considering contradictory evidence. Had I been able to go back in time to speak to my younger self, I (he) would probably have shook my (his) head too and dismissed any such talk. In fact, I'm reminded about the time my friend was talking me out of pursuing a girl I had my eye on when I was in my late teens. He laid out every reason why it was a bad idea and I just wasn't open to it at all. My brain was skilled at being able to counter whatever points he made with a: “yes, but...”. Of course, in the end, he was dead right, I should have cut my losses but I guess I had to learn the hard way through experience.

I do think that we have a price to pay for a blinkered view.

Ireland could really use a creative boom and people like Z (and he's def not the only one) are NOT asking for money AND not claiming to make folks rich and famous... it's not a trap... these folks are passionate people with connections that are doing their bit to help the scene, musicians and of course themselves.

I did notice there's no money being asked, because if there were, that would cause a psychological barrier for most people. Free is very attractive. “What have I got to lose?”, they say. And yeah, of course it's no real harm, it's just funny how it's advertised in a way to lure people in, yet with enough 'get-out clauses' if it doesn't do what people thought it said on the tin. I know that's their problem too. This isn't Z's fault, it's a tactic the music industry and marketers have used for a long time.

Most people admit that making a living in the record industry is hard these days. They admit it is theoretically achievable (because others have done so) but only after working extended hours and when all the connections and market conditions happen to fall into place, which they attribute to “hard work” and “believing in yourself”. Yet these pragmatic views weren't so commonplace back in the glory days. Record labels, managers, agents, etc al, used to promise new bands the moon and then took them for a ride to line their own pockets first and foremost. When word of these shenanigans finally got around to enough ears, they changed their approach, stating, “Indeed, there's a lot of sharks out there alright, so you need to be careful, it's a tough industry and you need to be dedicated”.

But this didn't really address the issue of how the industry projects an image of success which can goad young people into pursuing such a life of seemingly lavish excess and popularity. Certainly, the record industry has operated on the right side of the law, making sure when their empty promises failed to materialise, the artist would be made out to be the weak link (they didn't sell enough records), but their moral standards are about as low as you could get.

Take shows like X-Factor and American Idol, shows which seem to prey on people who are in a weak position. Their policy is obviously to recruit as many candidates as possible, whether or not they have a realistic chance of becoming a winner. Why do they send in those woeful singers to the celebrity judges? They get screened by other judges first.

I personally hope we have MORE people busting their ass to create a world-class scene in this country.

We can have a good music scene. A music scene can exist because humans have been creating music through the ages, it brings us together. A record-selling industry scene is a different matter, and if people want to chase after that, all well and good, but you have been warned.

Anyways, my points are hardly going to disparage dyed-in-the-wool believers. Even a skilled therapist would have trouble convincing people that they're headed for a path of destruction; so good is the brain at seeing what it wants to see, not what's there. Once we make a decision, our mind snaps shut; the brain is adept at supplying a conveniently biased array of evidence and arguments to bolster its opinion.

I have no vested interest in the music industry's demise, all I am doing is saying how it is, warts and all. People can either take the advice and run to the hills or ignore it. It's their call.

Waking-Dreams

Savman wrote: »

To the bone, Waking-Dreams, to the bone. But can't disagree with any of it, truth is a harsh mistress.

The thing is tho, Musicians are just Artists who, by their very nature, are dreamers. Trying to mash that into some kind of commercial logic is extremely difficult, most simply can't ever think of their music/songs as a product on a shelf akin to bread and milk at the local Tesco.


Smashing post this!!! Sums up my sentiments exactly, I wish to join your fellowship. Where can I send my cheque :pac:

Although I haven't played in over a year, I am still a musician and enjoy discovering music and appreciate the dedication and perseverance of artistic merit. Of course, one has to be able to dream in order to create. And now at last, we live in a world where I can listen to the music of some talented band on the other side of the world and correspond via email, etc and share alike. Such a concept was deemed unthinkable not so long ago.

I appreciate your words Savman; no cheque needed, writing is its own reward.

Fabo

sorry to bring this back on topic, but has anyone got a reply from the OP ?

greenpilot

Waking Dreams, Milan et al...

You know, its great watching you all wax lyrically (probably mispelt!!) about the trials and tribulations of the Irish Music Industry, but would you mind doing it somewhere else??? There are those of us who are actually doing domething about TRYING to get somewhere in the business, instead of sitting on our bitter behinds and typing thesises in the vein of "I know more than you about the MI"

We have already seen these conversations in Ger Regans thread, so come on....back on topic. Ive PM's these guys, and I was wondering, has anyone actually heard from them??

I got a reply saying that our details were passed on to "the Team in Dublin".....Im wondering, has anyone else gotten the same response??

I am , In Jest,

P
www.thepaulkband.com

PS,
By the way, we are playing in the Quays in Galway Monday night!! 12-2am...:D

gibson

I got a PM but all it said was could I send him my email and he'd get someone to contact me. I sent my email but havent heard anything yet

Zombienosh

yeah i got an email saying ill get an email soon.

..

Waking-Dreams

I suppose I'll get the blame for scaring them away then, yeah? “If only you'd been more positive and open-minded and kept your mouth shut...”

There are those of us who are actually doing something about TRYING to get somewhere in the business, instead of sitting on our bitter behinds and typing thesises in the vein of "I know more than you about the MI"

Are you serious? You think I'm bitter? Next you'll be using the infamous, “Yeah, well, you're obviously just jealous of people who are successful!”or something to that effect to try and swat me away and discredit everything I have said. You're way off.

I think the thread really went “off-topic” when Zendali's accused me of sitting on the fence taking pot shots at people while offering nothing. I'm not making excuses for myself by claiming he provoked me or anything, and I take full responsibility for going down that line of argumentation once again, but hey, I'm not talking to myself here either, right?

Anyways, yes indeed, BACK ON TOPIC, I'm out of here for good, (some of you will be pleased to know I'm sure) back to the photography forum for me. Though we had many heated intellectual skirmishes, I am very grateful for all of your input, including Zendali. I wish you all every bit of personal success via music whatever that is for you but try and keep a level head, and don't let your emotions cloud your judgement, as hard as it is to avoid.

Peace out!

Zendali

Waking-Dreams: I`ve enjoyed our various jousts and skirmishes so far in various threads, as we`ve both been coming from a diametrically-opposed viewpoint and this in turn has led to
some healthy debate. The central topic is the DIY route versus the industry-supported route and I`d like to keep our debate within this parameter. Your last post, regrettably, was a
bit of a rant, screaming at the moon or shaking an angry fist at the music biz. But I think you`ve a lot to say based on your previous posts and the content of your thought has certainly
engaged me along the way. It`s been thought-provoking and required reading, I hope, for aspirational bands and musicians.

We`ll agree to disagree on the best route for unsigned acts. But let`s tease this out between the pair of us, for the benefit of those looking on. We`ve both been around the block in this
industry and our primary aim is to pass on practical advice. You`re advocating self-reliance and ignoring an industry structure that`s already in place. I`m advocating that bands and artist
should look to the music biz and exploit their expertise for commercial advancement. Where I disagree with you strongly is on the issue of how money-driven labels are. Most labels are barely
surviving and in the case of most indies, it`s a labour of love. The people who run these labels are passionate music fans, barely surviving above a dole income.

When you`ve worked in A & R, you quickly learn to stay off the radar and to keep as low-key as possible. Unless you want a bass player from some unsigned band appear on your doorstep at 10
am on a Sunday morning, with a demo cd in one hand and your door knocker in the other hand lol!! Believe me, unsigned acts will go to incredible lengths, so I`m just relieved to getting
myspace links in a mail.

greenpilot

[QUOTE=Waking- I wish you all every bit of personal success via music whatever that is for you but try and keep a level head, and don't let your emotions cloud your judgement, as hard as it is to avoid.

Peace out![/QUOTE]

Now you are talking sense.....

Just as a matter of Interest, and I suppose the question is also aimed at Zendali also, what exactly are your credentials?? I dont think anyone has actually asked Waking dreams or Zendali?? Just Curiousity, of course. My crappy creds are on my website....what are yours?? Im not asking you to post them in public-you can PM be, but it might add some gravitas to some of your replies.....:D

Now.....im off to rehearsals.........:o

gibson

greenpilot wrote: »

Now you are talking sense.....

Just as a matter of Interest, and I suppose the question is also aimed at Zendali also, what exactly are your credentials?? I dont think anyone has actually asked Waking dreams or Zendali?? Just Curiousity, of course. My crappy creds are on my website....what are yours?? Im not asking you to post them in public-you can PM be, but it might add some gravitas to some of your replies.....:D

Now.....im off to rehearsals.........:o

Zendali gave his background earlier on in the thread

Waking-Dreams

Paul,

Did you have a thorough read through the thread? I did point out what my background education and experience was. (hint: bottom of post no. 37 in the thread)

So now, how do we prove I'm “qualified” enough to make these posts?

Here's what will happen:

You've asked me to demonstrate some credentials that would lend credibility to my viewpoint. By doing so, either one of three things will happen:

1. I won't have anything satisfactory (no “professional” C.V. to speak of, etc.), in which case, you'll belittle me as being unqualified to form an opinion worth listening to.

2. I will have something satisfactory, in which case, you won't give it anything close to a fair evaluation. You will find any way you can to discredit it, because your aim is to belittle me out of spite - not hear out my opinions, much less give them an inch of validation, because they are the opposite of your own or in conflict with them.

3. You'll read this post and attempt to contradict the first two possibilities for the sake of proving you're not who your writing style makes you out to be; it'll still be another attempt at proving I'm a bitter, washed-up musician by discrediting my character.

For the record, there are plenty of efficient ways to learn knowledge and skills: by reading books, watching documentaries, talking with experts and finding mentors. But what the hell, allow me to “qualify” myself on forming these opinions.

I hold a FETAC award for Sound Engineering and the Performing Arts as well as a Higher National Diploma (BTEC) in Music Production, which focused on Music Business, Marketing in the Arts Media & Music Industry, and Multimedia & Website Design. I haven't stopped studying and learning since graduating from college 7 years ago either. I've read a lot of books about the music industry, and even more about psychology, science and social behaviour. But I'm not just an academic.

Outside of the lecture halls, libraries and book stores, I've gained a vast amount of experience playing in numerous bands, recording studios, and performing and touring (both locally and internationally). I have spoken to many musicians from all walks of life and genres, interacted with lots of them personally, and have listened to the myriad testimonies, stories, and viewpoints of other seasoned players too, some of who are/were signed to record labels, as well as studio owners, magazine/webzine writers and publicists. I even relocated from Ireland to Vancouver, Canada with a band not so long ago, where we based ourselves for twelve months while trying to further the music and experience life in another country. We were a niche style of music, so don't try and conclude that because we didn't “make it” I'm bitter and anti-industry. That was never the goal and we were never looking for a label. Well, some of the band were, hence the inevitable split. Yes, misaligned goals can break bands up. But to be honest, if I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't change a thing. The amount of learning that experience brought has been priceless.

But credentials aside, I'm not the one here asking bands to email me so I can do something for them in the industry (and I'm not charging anyone either). I've already given them what I'm offering right here. I've fulfilled my end of the deal, the rest lies in their hands. This isn’t about me getting an ego boost but rather, it’s me saying, I’ve learned a lot of things through education and first-hand experience and I wish to share that body of knowledge with other people. My hope is that bands and artists will achieve a greater level of personal satisfaction from their musical ventures, than if they were still running around “chasing the dream” and coming up short.

You're advocating self-reliance and ignoring an industry structure that's already in place. I'm advocating that bands and artists should look to the music biz and exploit their expertise for commercial advancement.

Wrong, again. I'm not strictly anti-industry, I'm advocating self-reliance to bands whose commercial appeal would be much lesser than those of aspiring pop/rock stars - the real “bread and butter” of the industry. Why won't you acknowledge that point? I've made it several times.

Where I disagree with you strongly is on the issue of how money-driven labels are. Most labels are barely surviving and in the case of most indies, it's a labour of love. The people who run these labels are passionate music fans, barely surviving above a dole income.

I was speaking of labels in the past, you're referring to present day labels. Can we meet in the middle somewhere? But as you freely admit there, if the people running labels are now suffering compared to the good old days, strapped for excess cash and making little more than the dole money themselves, why would bands look to these people to fund their ambitions? They're not the power-house people they once were because the market has changed. We all know labels have been slashing budgets left, right and centre and only investing in music that is classed as a bone fide commercial “hit”. Artistic development isn't what it used to be. Or in the case where they do sign a niche band, and put out an album, the sales could be so poor and unsubstantial as to never really afford the artist any kind of decent recompense for all the hard work and sacrifices they made. Why? Because the business model in operation doesn't make much economic sense for bands with non-mainstream appeal. Yet, as I said, most bands tend to over-estimate their future popularity. It's one of the main reasons why you see lots of industry bands attempting to become more and more mainstream as their music progresses through the years. The evidence is everywhere. Just think of how many bands have been accused of selling out by fans, journalists and the like.

I'm sure many people who work at labels are passionate music lovers but they still have a corporate responsibility to sell product (it's why they're in business after all) and that has become much harder in this day and age. CD sales now have to compete with DVD's, mobile phones and phone credit, computer consoles and games, and pay-to-view television.

I feel for the labels because the law is on their side. However, public opinion and social norms don't always align with the law and downloading and CDR copying are going to continue until the architecture of the Internet/technology changes.

When I say social norms, I mean what people's responses are to the behaviours of others and how we conduct ourselves accordingly. For example, if I was discussing with my co-workers about having gone out on a date with a girl who, when we got back to her place tried to prevent me from having sex with her, but I just overpowered her anyway, someone in the group would probably say something to me and have a very big problem with me. But if I was talking about having downloaded some songs without the authors permission, it would be classed as more “acceptable”. Both acts are wrong and against the law yet society has much different attitudes based on social norms. And I'm not trying to trivialise rape by putting it in the same category as downloading, just illustrating a point. That said, I'm sure many scumbag rapists have been fined less money than some college kids who downloaded a few songs and got scalped by the RIAA for a few thousand dollars.

In the meantime, you can keep swinging your own fist at people who refuse to pay for music (I'm not one of them mind, I grew up in the 80's and still pay for my music), but to those people, it's like lecturing kids that under age sex and drinking is wrong and bad for society. They haven't been listening to those rants for quite some time now.

Right, I'm a hypocrite for even responding again. I'm going, for good this time.

Good night, and good luck! :pac: