Record Label Looking For Bands *MOD WARNING IN POST #1*

Waking-Dreams

Savman wrote: »

To the bone, Waking-Dreams, to the bone. But can't disagree with any of it, truth is a harsh mistress.

The thing is tho, Musicians are just Artists who, by their very nature, are dreamers. Trying to mash that into some kind of commercial logic is extremely difficult, most simply can't ever think of their music/songs as a product on a shelf akin to bread and milk at the local Tesco.


Smashing post this!!! Sums up my sentiments exactly, I wish to join your fellowship. Where can I send my cheque :pac:

Although I haven't played in over a year, I am still a musician and enjoy discovering music and appreciate the dedication and perseverance of artistic merit. Of course, one has to be able to dream in order to create. And now at last, we live in a world where I can listen to the music of some talented band on the other side of the world and correspond via email, etc and share alike. Such a concept was deemed unthinkable not so long ago.

I appreciate your words Savman; no cheque needed, writing is its own reward.

Fabo

sorry to bring this back on topic, but has anyone got a reply from the OP ?

greenpilot

Waking Dreams, Milan et al...

You know, its great watching you all wax lyrically (probably mispelt!!) about the trials and tribulations of the Irish Music Industry, but would you mind doing it somewhere else??? There are those of us who are actually doing domething about TRYING to get somewhere in the business, instead of sitting on our bitter behinds and typing thesises in the vein of "I know more than you about the MI"

We have already seen these conversations in Ger Regans thread, so come on....back on topic. Ive PM's these guys, and I was wondering, has anyone actually heard from them??

I got a reply saying that our details were passed on to "the Team in Dublin".....Im wondering, has anyone else gotten the same response??

I am , In Jest,

P
www.thepaulkband.com

PS,
By the way, we are playing in the Quays in Galway Monday night!! 12-2am...:D

gibson

I got a PM but all it said was could I send him my email and he'd get someone to contact me. I sent my email but havent heard anything yet

Zombienosh

yeah i got an email saying ill get an email soon.

..

Waking-Dreams

I suppose I'll get the blame for scaring them away then, yeah? “If only you'd been more positive and open-minded and kept your mouth shut...”

There are those of us who are actually doing something about TRYING to get somewhere in the business, instead of sitting on our bitter behinds and typing thesises in the vein of "I know more than you about the MI"

Are you serious? You think I'm bitter? Next you'll be using the infamous, “Yeah, well, you're obviously just jealous of people who are successful!”or something to that effect to try and swat me away and discredit everything I have said. You're way off.

I think the thread really went “off-topic” when Zendali's accused me of sitting on the fence taking pot shots at people while offering nothing. I'm not making excuses for myself by claiming he provoked me or anything, and I take full responsibility for going down that line of argumentation once again, but hey, I'm not talking to myself here either, right?

Anyways, yes indeed, BACK ON TOPIC, I'm out of here for good, (some of you will be pleased to know I'm sure) back to the photography forum for me. Though we had many heated intellectual skirmishes, I am very grateful for all of your input, including Zendali. I wish you all every bit of personal success via music whatever that is for you but try and keep a level head, and don't let your emotions cloud your judgement, as hard as it is to avoid.

Peace out!

Zendali

Waking-Dreams: I`ve enjoyed our various jousts and skirmishes so far in various threads, as we`ve both been coming from a diametrically-opposed viewpoint and this in turn has led to
some healthy debate. The central topic is the DIY route versus the industry-supported route and I`d like to keep our debate within this parameter. Your last post, regrettably, was a
bit of a rant, screaming at the moon or shaking an angry fist at the music biz. But I think you`ve a lot to say based on your previous posts and the content of your thought has certainly
engaged me along the way. It`s been thought-provoking and required reading, I hope, for aspirational bands and musicians.

We`ll agree to disagree on the best route for unsigned acts. But let`s tease this out between the pair of us, for the benefit of those looking on. We`ve both been around the block in this
industry and our primary aim is to pass on practical advice. You`re advocating self-reliance and ignoring an industry structure that`s already in place. I`m advocating that bands and artist
should look to the music biz and exploit their expertise for commercial advancement. Where I disagree with you strongly is on the issue of how money-driven labels are. Most labels are barely
surviving and in the case of most indies, it`s a labour of love. The people who run these labels are passionate music fans, barely surviving above a dole income.

When you`ve worked in A & R, you quickly learn to stay off the radar and to keep as low-key as possible. Unless you want a bass player from some unsigned band appear on your doorstep at 10
am on a Sunday morning, with a demo cd in one hand and your door knocker in the other hand lol!! Believe me, unsigned acts will go to incredible lengths, so I`m just relieved to getting
myspace links in a mail.

greenpilot

[QUOTE=Waking- I wish you all every bit of personal success via music whatever that is for you but try and keep a level head, and don't let your emotions cloud your judgement, as hard as it is to avoid.

Peace out![/QUOTE]

Now you are talking sense.....

Just as a matter of Interest, and I suppose the question is also aimed at Zendali also, what exactly are your credentials?? I dont think anyone has actually asked Waking dreams or Zendali?? Just Curiousity, of course. My crappy creds are on my website....what are yours?? Im not asking you to post them in public-you can PM be, but it might add some gravitas to some of your replies.....:D

Now.....im off to rehearsals.........:o

gibson

greenpilot wrote: »

Now you are talking sense.....

Just as a matter of Interest, and I suppose the question is also aimed at Zendali also, what exactly are your credentials?? I dont think anyone has actually asked Waking dreams or Zendali?? Just Curiousity, of course. My crappy creds are on my website....what are yours?? Im not asking you to post them in public-you can PM be, but it might add some gravitas to some of your replies.....:D

Now.....im off to rehearsals.........:o

Zendali gave his background earlier on in the thread

Waking-Dreams

Paul,

Did you have a thorough read through the thread? I did point out what my background education and experience was. (hint: bottom of post no. 37 in the thread)

So now, how do we prove I'm “qualified” enough to make these posts?

Here's what will happen:

You've asked me to demonstrate some credentials that would lend credibility to my viewpoint. By doing so, either one of three things will happen:

1. I won't have anything satisfactory (no “professional” C.V. to speak of, etc.), in which case, you'll belittle me as being unqualified to form an opinion worth listening to.

2. I will have something satisfactory, in which case, you won't give it anything close to a fair evaluation. You will find any way you can to discredit it, because your aim is to belittle me out of spite - not hear out my opinions, much less give them an inch of validation, because they are the opposite of your own or in conflict with them.

3. You'll read this post and attempt to contradict the first two possibilities for the sake of proving you're not who your writing style makes you out to be; it'll still be another attempt at proving I'm a bitter, washed-up musician by discrediting my character.

For the record, there are plenty of efficient ways to learn knowledge and skills: by reading books, watching documentaries, talking with experts and finding mentors. But what the hell, allow me to “qualify” myself on forming these opinions.

I hold a FETAC award for Sound Engineering and the Performing Arts as well as a Higher National Diploma (BTEC) in Music Production, which focused on Music Business, Marketing in the Arts Media & Music Industry, and Multimedia & Website Design. I haven't stopped studying and learning since graduating from college 7 years ago either. I've read a lot of books about the music industry, and even more about psychology, science and social behaviour. But I'm not just an academic.

Outside of the lecture halls, libraries and book stores, I've gained a vast amount of experience playing in numerous bands, recording studios, and performing and touring (both locally and internationally). I have spoken to many musicians from all walks of life and genres, interacted with lots of them personally, and have listened to the myriad testimonies, stories, and viewpoints of other seasoned players too, some of who are/were signed to record labels, as well as studio owners, magazine/webzine writers and publicists. I even relocated from Ireland to Vancouver, Canada with a band not so long ago, where we based ourselves for twelve months while trying to further the music and experience life in another country. We were a niche style of music, so don't try and conclude that because we didn't “make it” I'm bitter and anti-industry. That was never the goal and we were never looking for a label. Well, some of the band were, hence the inevitable split. Yes, misaligned goals can break bands up. But to be honest, if I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't change a thing. The amount of learning that experience brought has been priceless.

But credentials aside, I'm not the one here asking bands to email me so I can do something for them in the industry (and I'm not charging anyone either). I've already given them what I'm offering right here. I've fulfilled my end of the deal, the rest lies in their hands. This isn’t about me getting an ego boost but rather, it’s me saying, I’ve learned a lot of things through education and first-hand experience and I wish to share that body of knowledge with other people. My hope is that bands and artists will achieve a greater level of personal satisfaction from their musical ventures, than if they were still running around “chasing the dream” and coming up short.

You're advocating self-reliance and ignoring an industry structure that's already in place. I'm advocating that bands and artists should look to the music biz and exploit their expertise for commercial advancement.

Wrong, again. I'm not strictly anti-industry, I'm advocating self-reliance to bands whose commercial appeal would be much lesser than those of aspiring pop/rock stars - the real “bread and butter” of the industry. Why won't you acknowledge that point? I've made it several times.

Where I disagree with you strongly is on the issue of how money-driven labels are. Most labels are barely surviving and in the case of most indies, it's a labour of love. The people who run these labels are passionate music fans, barely surviving above a dole income.

I was speaking of labels in the past, you're referring to present day labels. Can we meet in the middle somewhere? But as you freely admit there, if the people running labels are now suffering compared to the good old days, strapped for excess cash and making little more than the dole money themselves, why would bands look to these people to fund their ambitions? They're not the power-house people they once were because the market has changed. We all know labels have been slashing budgets left, right and centre and only investing in music that is classed as a bone fide commercial “hit”. Artistic development isn't what it used to be. Or in the case where they do sign a niche band, and put out an album, the sales could be so poor and unsubstantial as to never really afford the artist any kind of decent recompense for all the hard work and sacrifices they made. Why? Because the business model in operation doesn't make much economic sense for bands with non-mainstream appeal. Yet, as I said, most bands tend to over-estimate their future popularity. It's one of the main reasons why you see lots of industry bands attempting to become more and more mainstream as their music progresses through the years. The evidence is everywhere. Just think of how many bands have been accused of selling out by fans, journalists and the like.

I'm sure many people who work at labels are passionate music lovers but they still have a corporate responsibility to sell product (it's why they're in business after all) and that has become much harder in this day and age. CD sales now have to compete with DVD's, mobile phones and phone credit, computer consoles and games, and pay-to-view television.

I feel for the labels because the law is on their side. However, public opinion and social norms don't always align with the law and downloading and CDR copying are going to continue until the architecture of the Internet/technology changes.

When I say social norms, I mean what people's responses are to the behaviours of others and how we conduct ourselves accordingly. For example, if I was discussing with my co-workers about having gone out on a date with a girl who, when we got back to her place tried to prevent me from having sex with her, but I just overpowered her anyway, someone in the group would probably say something to me and have a very big problem with me. But if I was talking about having downloaded some songs without the authors permission, it would be classed as more “acceptable”. Both acts are wrong and against the law yet society has much different attitudes based on social norms. And I'm not trying to trivialise rape by putting it in the same category as downloading, just illustrating a point. That said, I'm sure many scumbag rapists have been fined less money than some college kids who downloaded a few songs and got scalped by the RIAA for a few thousand dollars.

In the meantime, you can keep swinging your own fist at people who refuse to pay for music (I'm not one of them mind, I grew up in the 80's and still pay for my music), but to those people, it's like lecturing kids that under age sex and drinking is wrong and bad for society. They haven't been listening to those rants for quite some time now.

Right, I'm a hypocrite for even responding again. I'm going, for good this time.

Good night, and good luck! :pac:

DrFroggies

Impassioned stuff gentle creatures.

Failed musicians are like 30something ‘damaged’ women methinks...honest lessons hard learnt and readily offered but mangled and devalued by ire. Some go on hoping and working harder to make ‘this relationship’ work, though the odds are hugely stacked against it and time is less on their side. Others break it down over-analyse it (but usually with an almost myopic bias) and unleash their hurt and bitterness under the guise of rational educated thought and pretence of objectivity.

The hopeful, eager to prove that they aren’t just dreamers that they have plans and realistic and attainable goals but reluctant to acknowledge how very unlikely they are to be realised.
The hopeless, defensive of any suggestion that their motives are remotely personal, using age old self-validation and condescension to drive overblown, narcissistic but very valid points home.

Aren’t all of us strummers, former strummers and strumletts very tragic animals indeed.

The truth is that though WD is clearly venting, most of his points are pretty spot on. And whilst Zens intentions are clearly good (I’ve no idea about impaacademy though having followed this thread and Zens earlier thread my faith would be more with Zen)the vast majority of if not all of the people who reply will gain nothing in terms of career from it…for one particular reason - You’re not good enough/commercial enough etc - and that’s not the fault of any of the people trying to help you out nor the big nasty industry it’s not even that you’re not a talented person/act. It’s simply that you’re not good enough, you lack that little extra, talent, savvy, drive, attractiveness, organisation or plain old charisma.

Unless of course you are good enough…but you’re probably not.

Though you might be

And if you don’t read through all that WD has posted (except all the waffle about psychology and social behaviour...maybe…summarise it in your head ;-) and take it to heart you really will get burnt badly, if it causes some to give up then good, you wouldn’t have made it anyway (and that’s not a bad thing life is huge and there are many other exciting routes to go down) If you’re pig ignorant enough to carry on…well good on ya trooper. Do all that Zen and Milan have advised and figure out some more for yourself – the odds are firmly stacked against you but it does happen for some people and it isn’t a case of rock n’ roll stardom or nothing there are a few tiers in between that see musicians, composers and all other forms of the musically/creatively inclined making a living in their chosen field.

Ultimately if you give up you’ll definitely get nowhere and if you don’t give up you probably won’t get anywhere either…but along with Zens offer and MPs approach there are a lot of people on boards.ie and other forums happy to offer input and advice and equally those who’ll give you a healthy crack of the pitfalls and risks like WD.

In the end what you gain by making it is fulfilment and what you lose by failing is time…

So which is easier to live with - unfulfilled ambitions or loss of time?

maccored

ye always have to be careful on how to use phrases like 'failed musician' and talk of going places.

To some, success itself is just being a musician in the first place, so there's never any failure. For any musician it all depends on what you want. If you want fame, money and fortune then the idea of selling your music and being part of the money orientated music industry (the pros and cons discussed int his very thread) is how to achieve success but if you really love music, you dont really need any of that. You just have to enjoy writing music.

Fabo

i dont believe there are musicians who dont care about getting a deal. if they were offered one today, would they say, "nah, ill stick to washing dishes and playing in the evenings for a few quid thanks"

there are different tiers of success in the MI - one is where you dont need good songwriting ability or musicanship, this tier of course is virtually impossible to break into as its swamped with competition. another one is where you need the latter and it doesnt matter too much about the former - but its just as competitive a tier.

however, anyone who has the knack/talent for writing really good tunes is competing in a tiny league of players and the chances of success are much much higher. think alan mcgee/oasis - contract offered there and then. the songs did it, otherwise liam would still be competing in one of the other tiers.

maccored

Fabo wrote: »

i dont believe there are musicians who dont care about getting a deal. if they were offered one today, would they say, "nah, ill stick to washing dishes and playing in the evenings for a few quid thanks"

wouldnt that depend on what you mean by 'deal'? Ive been offered a few pieces of sh!t in my time, which I have refused. No-one has ever offered anything worth signing, which isnt surprising considering my idea of 'worth signing' probably wouldnt be their idea of a good deal.

To some, success itself is just being a musician in the first place

I stand by that - it's not always about money, though you find that in all walks of live - some people are only interested in cash, others arren't.

Fabo

maccored wrote: »

I stand by that - it's not always about money, though you find that in all walks of live - some people are only interested in cash, others arren't.

everyones interested in cash except if your a hermit on an island. what do you use to buy stuff ?

maccored

yes - money is important to live with but theres other ways to get it rather than prostituting yourself musically. I mean, really. As I say, to some money is more important than anything else in the world. To others, not as much.

greenpilot

maccored wrote: »

ye always have to be careful on how to use phrases like 'failed musician' and talk of going places.

To some, success itself is just being a musician in the first place, so there's never any failure. For any musician it all depends on what you want. If you want fame, money and fortune then the idea of selling your music and being part of the money orientated music industry (the pros and cons discussed int his very thread) is how to achieve success but if you really love music, you dont really need any of that. You just have to enjoy writing music.

We agree,

While one can get all philosophical and achedemic about the nuances of the Industry, at the end of the day, its all about playing music. Its all about packing the jeep, driving an hour and a half to the city, trying to find parking near the venue, hauling the gear into the back room, hauling it onto the stage, setting it up, trying to sound check in 20 minutes, playing in savage heat for 3 hours. finishing and giving out business cards, talking ****e to people who think that you are great, (even though you know it was a **** gig) wrapping the leads, breaking down the gear, ringing the clamping guy to unclamp the jeep ( €80 ), packing the gear, driving home and nearly falling asleep, getting to bed around 4, into work for nine.....and all for €100 euro each??

And we do this over and over and over and over and over again......and why??

Simple, because we like to play music. We KNOW, we will probably never get a deal, We KNOW we will probably never "make it" in the eyes of the public...and if we do have any claim to sucess, it is because we have neck, are good with a phone, and just happened to be in the right place (once) in order to bag a good support slot..(which we did for free) which enabled us to boost our profile.... but again, we know we aint great...as you can see here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHZnQu2X8jw

But we are out there, and doing it - because we like music, and untill those who wax lyrically really really really experience what it is like to get down and dirty, no Achedemic course, book, lecture or even experience in the upper echelons of the industry will help you understand why it is we do what we do. Sure, most of us may come to the stage where a voice in the head says, come on man!!, give it up...it aint going to happen!!....but we still do it.....take Elbow as an example of this.

And to those of you a lot younger than me who have read all these threads and may feel a bit disheartened about going for it...my advice would be...

Dont give up, listen and take on board criticism, become proficient at your instrument, learn how to spot the bull****ters, and learn how to manage yourself...after all, why did you pick up your instrument in the first place??...because you like music!!

By the way if anyone is going to Achill Island this weekend, drop me a line!!!

Salut!!!!

P

MilanPan!c

Honestly, you don't have to do all that bull**** ^^^

Good songs will get you further than crap gigs... In fact that kind of labour of love approach can be pretty damn self-destructive. Afterall, the love of music can only sustain a miserable experience for so long.

There's plenty of other valid approaches that won't cause such misery.

greenpilot

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Honestly, you don't have to do all that bull**** ^^^

Good songs will get you further than crap gigs... In fact that kind of labour of love approach can be pretty damn self-destructive. Afterall, the love of music can only sustain a miserable experience for so long.

There's plenty of other valid approaches that won't cause such misery.

Who said we are miserable....thats my point....we are having a bloody ball....but youve got to like hard work!!....quick reply by the way!!:eek:

maccored

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Honestly, you don't have to do all that bull**** ^^^

Good songs will get you further than crap gigs... In fact that kind of labour of love approach can be pretty damn self-destructive. Afterall, the love of music can only sustain a miserable experience for so long.

There's plenty of other valid approaches that won't cause such misery.

I too must say 'misery'?

misery to me is spending years hunting fame, fortune and money whilst all the time loosing track of what the actual point is. Believe me, Im happy.

MilanPan!c

I say misery because unless your band is full of people without lives this sort of working 30hr days for almost nothing will make some of them miserable...

Who likes, and note my words carefully please, who likes working hard for people that don't care, to play a medicore gig and lose money in the process?

That's what you LIKE?

I understand liking the playing of the music, and understand going into debt, those are things you can seal with, in the right circumstances, but I don't understand claiming that...:

"packing the jeep, driving an hour and a half to the city, trying to find parking near the venue, hauling the gear into the back room, hauling it onto the stage, setting it up, trying to sound check in 20 minutes, playing in savage heat for 3 hours. finishing and giving out business cards, talking ****e to people who think that you are great, (even though you know it was a **** gig) wrapping the leads, breaking down the gear, ringing the clamping guy to unclamp the jeep ( €80 ), packing the gear, driving home and nearly falling asleep, getting to bed around 4, into work for nine.....and all for €100 euro each??"

..is a happy-making thing.

Is it a means to an end? Maaaybe? Is it occasionally fun? Could be, I guess, with the right combination of people... but it's certainly very few people definition of a recipe for happiness.

In fact, that to me sounds like a decent way of destroying a band.

How long before the drummer looks for a better paying, less demeaning gig?

Or before a guitarist realises his family makes him happier than that ^^^.

Don't get me wrong, I've done that, and had some fun doing it, but it's very rarely sustainable.

As for Elbow, ALL of their records have been released on actual labels. People like to think they ground it out, but they did NOT do this ^^^

They were signed to Island in their early 20s and though it took them a LONG time, by some standards, to have a hit, most of their time as an unsigned band was as teens... so that's hardly the same thing.

maccored

i cant really debate with you to be honest as your idea of being in a band and making music seems to be completely at odds with mine. I have a job and I play music. It doesnt make me miserable. I dont loose money on gigs and I dont work hard for other people. I work hard at music for myself - no-one else. Plus, as mentioned, it's enjoyable. At the end of the day, there is still recorded music at the end of it - minus all the 'music industry' drama.

It might click with you further down the road, I dont know.

maccored

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I've done that, and had some fun doing it, but it's very rarely sustainable.

why does music have to be financially sustainable? If art was the same, would Van Gogh not have just given up?

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

why does music have to be financially sustainable? If art was the same, would Van Gogh not have just given up?

But of course art is a solitary thing, for the most part. You don't have people playing bass in painting

I'm all for fun, etc., but c'mon, if youre gonna try and tell me that no one in your band is playing music for anything other fun, then why bother dragging gear and people around? Just play gigs in your home town... Why bother even booking gigs or asking for any money?

Just play in your sitting room, for fun, and be done with it.


It's not about me thinking that music is a means to an end, purely, or being a sell-out.. It's about tryin to have fun, not waste time on silly meaningless gigs and make good music without constantly struggling against unnecessary bull****.

maccored

thats what I mean - your idea of what a band is about is completely at odds to mine. We write music, we play gigs online and then we play bigger showcases like JD Live. It doesnt cost us money to either write music nor play gigs. I really dont think you see where Im coming from. we mainly think outside the box and avoid the standard crap bands put themselves through - including the usual goal of 'getting signed' and all that boll0cks. Again - as Ive said, I - and the rest of the band Im in - do this because we love making music. I dont see how thats such a hard thing to get your head around.

i could also say we record all our material plus we've been 'releasing' a tune every month this year including various mixes of said tune and so far we've registered over 20 odd tunes with imro this year alone - or I could tell you since january we've had regular airplay on 2fm, todayfm, beatfm and various local stations but theres not much point since we 'may as well be playing in the front room' (though we do most of our gigs in my shed in front of 50 odd webviewers) .

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

thats what I mean - your idea of what a band is about is completely at odds to mine. We write music, we play gigs online and then we play bigger showcases like JD Live. It doesnt cost us money to either write music nor play gigs. I really dont think you see where Im coming from. we mainly think outside the box and avoid the standard crap bands put themselves through - including the usual goal of 'getting signed' and all that boll0cks. Again - as Ive said, I - and the rest of the band Im in - do this because we love making music. I dont see how thats such a hard thing to get your head around.

i could also say we record all our material plus we've been 'releasing' a tune every month this year including various mixes of said tune and so far we've registered over 20 odd tunes with imro this year alone - or I could tell you since january we've had regular airplay on 2fm, todayfm, beatfm and various local stations but theres not much point since we 'may as well be playing in the front room' (though we do most of our gigs in my shed in front of 50 odd webviewers) .

I have nothing against this.

I'm chalking this up to another case of miscommunication on the internerd.

This all seems reasonable.

maccored

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I have nothing against this.

I'm chalking this up to another case of miscommunication on the internerd.

This all seems reasonable.

thats fair enough and Im glad you see where Im coming from. Im just trying to point out (and again this is something really for younger musicians who are just starting) that a band can function, write and enjoy themselves without having to pin their hopes on anything more than their own hard work. Too many bands await the elusive A&R man with the large cheque (read high interest loan)

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

thats fair enough and Im glad you see where Im coming from. Im just trying to point out (and again this is something really for younger musicians who are just starting) that a band can function, write and enjoy themselves without having to pin their hopes on anything more than their own hard work. Too many bands await the elusive A&R man with the large cheque (read high interest loan)

the only thing I'd say is that you can't really be playing big money gigs without a label... but yeah, the rest I totally agree with.

maccored

there arent too many bands in ireland playing big money gigs. signed bands are a business with expenses to pay. to clear a few grand for each bandmember per gig, you'd need to be on of those very very very rare successful bands. Ask any irish band like delorentos, ham sandwich, the walls, flapes etc if they're making big money at every gig and I bet you wont get many saying 'yes'. Personally though, Im just not that focssed on making money. i have a job, that pays the bills. Music is for fun and enjoyment.

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

there arent too many bands in ireland playing big money gigs. signed bands are a business with expenses to pay. to clear a few grand for each bandmember per gig, you'd need to be on of those very very very rare successful bands. Ask any irish band like delorentos, ham sandwich, the walls, flapes etc if they're making big money at every gig and I bet you wont get many saying 'yes'. Personally though, Im just not that focssed on making money. i have a job, that pays the bills. Music is for fun and enjoyment.

Again, I agree with all of that.

I think though that therein lies the appeal.

Give the villagers a few years and see what they make per gig.

It's not an impossibility though, the producer we work with from the UK was the main guy in a band I'm sure you've probably never heard of, but they were making several grand each, every show, while on a pretty lame label.

Some of it is luck, some of it is what you're trying to do some of it is skill some of it is connections. Put them together in the right way and you can make real money.

In fact, I know more than a few people from my years in the States and in London that are professional musicians, playing original music.

It aint easy, but it's not impossible, with the right combination of things.

Zendali

For the record, "Waking-Dreams", I`m not managing any act at the moment, so I havent devised some cunning ploy to beam a searchlight on some new act I`ve taken on. Also, and to allay your suspicions further, issues such as exit clauses wont arise for the simple reason that there wont be any contracts between the acts I choose for the website and myself. They`re supplying the site content and are free to come and go as they please. In return, I like to think that my website will give them much-needed exposure to potential investors - people who risk their money with no guarantee of getting it back, contrary to popular myth.

But anyhow I dont want to engage you any further in our dialogue and I`m sure the feeling is mutual. We both have divergent and staunchly-held views as to the best course of action an unsigned act should take and while I found some of your insights and analyses very interesting, I`m cut from a very different and pragmatic cloth. I`m an entrepreneur by day and running a business in the white heat of severe competition, coupled with the fall-out in the economic environment. It aint easy and you learn to think on the hoof. As the German writer Berthold Brecht once said: "Food first, then morals". When I managed bands I used that same criterion and always strove to cut to the chase, while ignoring all the right-on music press ideology I`d absorbed from journos in Hot Press, NME, Rolling Stone, etc.

On a general note and not wishing to address any poster in particular, I find a lot of music threads seem to degenerate into a workout in cynicism. They sadly lack balance or light and shade and for every disgruntled musician out there there`s also a band member who hugely enjoyed his time on the road, being flung about in the back of a Transit van in his late teens/early 20`s and who looks back fondly and wistfully at the fun of it all. I`m acutely aware here as I read these posts of the many young musicians and songwriters who have mailed me their
myspace links, entering the music biz arena for the first time. Some of them have voiced their concerns and have made reference to the caustic and cynical attitude that seems to permeate so many threads. Making music is supposed to be a fun activity after all and not a think-in on some open-heart surgical procedure.These young bands and songwriters are reading vitriolic posts from musicians with a jaundiced view of the music biz, 30-somethings with an axe to grind. I try to reassure them to stay positive, ignore rants from unfulfilled musicians, and to
stay focussed on their uncorrupted enthusiasm.

The other downside to that cynical and jaundiced viewpoint is the deterring effect it`s having on new managers entering the fray. From the countless acts I`ve heard so far, management is a huge missing link in the equation. Bands and artists need someone to both organise them into a musical entity and to fight their cause among investors. But because of the rampant cynicism and naive and ill-informed opinion that`s out there, particularly among the collective psyche of bands, a lot of good managers have simply decided to opt out. I met one recently who invested a huge amount of time, along with 2 grand, into an unsigned band, only to see the singer walk away into a more ego-friendly zone. This manager has excellent skills and experience but as he said, through a very deep sigh: "could you be bothered?" He`s now managing a covers band and as he pointedly said: " there`s a lot less grief".

MilanPan!c

All well stated Z.

I'm starting to discover that one of the reason some bands, like mine, ate getting interest from business folks, is because we know we need help from the industry to accomplish our specific gooooooals.

We're not suckers, but we're not delusional.

To young musicians:

if you have good songs and a good attitude, there are plenty of oportunities.

galwaybabe

MilanPan!c wrote: »

All well stated Z.

I'm starting to discover that one of the reason some bands, like mine, ate getting interest from business folks, is because we know we need help from the industry to accomplish our specific gooooooals.

We're not suckers, but we're not delusional.

To young musicians:

if you have good songs and a good attitude, there are plenty of oportunities.

This is so true. Good attitude is essential and a willingness to ask for help. There really are so many people in the music industry who are only too happy to help. I've been discovering this over the last couple of months and I can honestly say that I am blown away by how much help and encouragement our band have been getting. The first step is admitting that you need help which can be a big step!

It is also essential to leave the ego at the door and realise that there are people out there who know a lot about the industry and their advice is gold dust.

The debate on this thread has been insightful and at times, entertaining but the cynicism has been very strong. I sincerely hope that it doesn't put young musicians off because they would miss out on a very exciting journey in life that may or may not work out, but it is a life experience that will never be forgotten!

MilanPan!c

It's kind of like this:

opportunity will come if you have good songs

then if you're prepared

and have a good team of people around you

you can have tangible success

---

two of the worst things I see musicians do are variations on a theme

they either:

believe way to much in a project that hasno future

or

don't believe enough in something real


You have to be brutally honest with yourself

e.g. If the same guys have been playing essentially the same songs for five years and no one but a small core o folks care, then the chances of it breaking through are pretty slim

the inverse is also true:

if you're in a band that's doing well, but the drummer is always missing rehearsal, then you won't be able to take advantage of opportunies that depend on this guy


But if you can find the people and can write the tunes are open to help and have a decent attitude toward hard work, you will have opportunities...

galwaybabe

You have to be prepared to put a lot of graft in and warn your family that they will be seeing a lot less of you while the ground work is being put in

greenpilot

galwaybabe wrote: »

This is so true. Good attitude is essential and a willingness to ask for help. There really are so many people in the music industry who are only too happy to help. I've been discovering this over the last couple of months and I can honestly say that I am blown away by how much help and encouragement our band have been getting. The first step is admitting that you need help which can be a big step!

It is also essential to leave the ego at the door and realise that there are people out there who know a lot about the industry and their advice is gold dust.

The debate on this thread has been insightful and at times, entertaining but the cynicism has been very strong. I sincerely hope that it doesn't put young musicians off because they would miss out on a very exciting journey in life that may or may not work out, but it is a life experience that will never be forgotten!

Her Here, Galway babe....and I criticise myself too for being a tad cynical. But I think you have summed up the core of it right there....enjoy the music and have a bit of humility.....hope Fling goes well for you...you have a very unique sound.
P

DrFroggies

I’d be careful not to mistake cynicism – with advice on caution and a realistic approach or view of yourself/act/band/project – a couple of posters have slipped into duels over these two threads and have on occasion gotten a little over personal in how things are offered and taken…but I think its more a mark of how deeply each poster has been affected by their experiences in music than deliberate slights…but overall everyone seems to be in agreement from what I can see.

• Music as a performer or writer can be an incredible part of your life whether or not you pursue it as a career.
• If you do pursue it as a career it is possible to have success on one of the many tiers and even - if you’ve got what it takes – achieve that highest of musical ambitions.
• The odds are not stacked in your favour (and less so the higher your expectations) it’s an aggressive industry, swollen with traffic, with a very complicated structure and no *definite* route to the top (or whichever tier your having yourself ;-)
• In practical terms there is no easy route, you need to be prepared and however hard you think you’ll have to work (if your ambitions are a decent career as apposed to the pleasure of playing and writing) be assured you can multiply it a hundred times before you can consider yourself in with a shot.
• If you’re not prepared enough, can’t accept the difficulties, unwilling to put in the serious (often non creative) graft or accept the regular and frustrating knocks then move out of the way (keep it as a pleasure activity), stop congesting the routes on a whim and let the acts that are willing to/have already put in the effort have a slightly clearer run.
• If you hate yourself for wasting time on music don’t keep doing it certainly don’t drag your fellow musicians who are still engaged and passionate about it with half heartedness and a what’s the point attitude - Ie. DON’T JOIN A BAND!!! Don’t lie to yourself or others.

The thing is that creating music is something many people would want to do with their lives and I certainly don’t think encouragement should be given across the board in a Paula Abdul ‘Keep the dream alive’ kind of way. It’s incredibly insulting to musicians and composers who’ve spent time honing their craft and developing their talent into something worthy.

People who have respect for what they do and the path they’ve chosen in life.

Equally it’s unfair to people who clearly aren’t good enough to be encouraged to spend time, money and emotional investment on something they will never succeed at, constantly telling someone to never give up who really should is very distasteful and I think would be deemed so much more openly in other areas of life.

But back to the point: How are all of you getting on with the OP so far anyway?

SpittinStuff

Sent our link, got a response from the original poster within a few hours. Got an response back from another person the following day informing me that our details were being sent to various record labels, and if basically if anyone was interested we'd hear back in a week or two.

This is week two...

Zombienosh

i asked for details on sound engineering/production opportunites and got en email saying id get details sent on.

..that was about 2 weeks ago.

SpittinStuff

Hmmmm....

galwaybabe

I sent a PM and got a message saying I'd get an email. Nothing back so far. But in fairness, they could be inundated with messages!

Fandango

Sent a PM but no reply myself either. Id say they got a fair few responses alright.

gibson

We all seem to have had the same, a pm but no email from another person apart from that 1 case. Maybe they are inundated as someone said

gibson

Anyone hear anymore? This thread looks like its dying off

Fabo

I sent a pm a few days ago but got no reply

Waking-Dreams

I hate to state the obvious but, I think you already know.

gibson

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I hate to state the obvious but, I think you already know.

I thought you took your ball and went home?

Waking-Dreams

See the other thread I started.

'twas curious about if you lot had heard anything back. So, no word then?

gibson

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

See the other thread I started.

'twas curious about if you lot had heard anything back. So, no word then?

Yep Ive been offered a record deal

Waking-Dreams

Good hussle kid. I guess you can quit your school/day job now, you're going all the way to the top.