Enda wins

Tipp Man

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Reilly will not be finance. His speciality is health and he appears to have an excellent grasp on the health area. I'd imagine he will have to continue with that.

The common theme is that Michael Noonan will be the finance guy if Richard Bruton does not return

Isn't Michael Noonan's wife very sick with Alzheimers?? Wasn't he on the frontline recently giving a very open and honest account of how things were with her (very sad interview I have to say)

Does he want to get back into frontline politics considering this?

InchicoreDude

As a gp if O'Reilly wasn't able to talk on health,We'd have to give up altogether.

Not really; There are GP's out there that do not know the scale of the problems with the health sector. Reilly isnt one of them, He has an appreciation of these problems and that comes across when he is talking on TV. I know that there is a difference between talking & acting but so far, he hasnt had an opportunity in government so we dont really know what he is up to. However, I would choose him over Mary Harney any day.

InchicoreDude

Isn't Michael Noonan's wife very sick with Alzheimers?? Wasn't he on the frontline recently giving a very open and honest account of how things were with her (very sad interview I have to say)

Does he want to get back into frontline politics considering this?

Didnt realise that. Was only going by what they were saying on RTE & Vincent Browne last night, that Noonan was great "reserve" to have for finance.
Would still imagine that Reilly will stick to health though

gpjordanf1

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'd have to agree with this, whatever about Bruton or 1 or 2 voicing dissatisfaction with him as soon as the majority of the front bench came out against him then IMO his position was untenable. Even now with the vote being so close his position is completly undermined, take out the MEP and senator votes and he would have lost yesterday, imagine that the leader of the main opposition party in this country doesn't have the confidence of the majority of guys (and ladies) sitting beside him in the dail, yet he continues?? Nevermind what the public undoubtly think.

He should really have resigned his position IMO

So if Bruton had won then nearly half the Party would be in favour of Kenny and as such by your reasoning his position would be untenable.
Now you mention over half the front bench were against him but only two have said they wont return to the front bench, hardly an overwhelming majority.
Oh the whole party have a right to vote on the issue, you cannot say take out this & that and Bruton would have won, its not relevant!

Oh and its about time people got over this and read the Party's policies on the Country, Economy, Employment and Health etc, this party is about a collection of minds & people and is not about one man!
We have to get rid of the cancer thats destroyed this country and that should be our aim!
We should focus our energy and attention to this.
People should also look at the promises made by FF & Green during the last election and see how much they have failed Every person in this country!

Rookster

Kenny should resign today. He is a lame duck leader. I agree with the theory that Enda is the problem but Richard is not the solution. The party is going nowhere until Kenny is gone. Having got a good look at the party over the past week there does'nt seem to be much talent there. I really don't know who would make a good leader. Probably has to be Dublin based. Who does that leave? Hayes or Varadkar? I get the feeling that if Fianna Fail changed their leader they would probably win the next election with the disarray in FG and the prospect of "Happy Gilmore" as Taoiseach.

fatboypee

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

......Oh the whole party have a right to vote on the issue, you cannot say take out this & that and Bruton would have won, its not relevant!

I for one am not advocating Bruton in this situation and agree, the win here is not relevant. what IS relevant however is the egotistical and self-serving attitude adopted by Kenny to those Front Benchers who had the audacity to ask, in my view, extremely relevant questions of his ability to continue to lead the party.

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Oh and its about time people got over this and read the Party's policies on the Country, Economy, Employment and Health etc, this party is about a collection of minds & people and is not about one man!

See above comments :rolleyes:

InchicoreDude

what IS relevant however is the egotistical and self-serving attitude adopted by Kenny to those Front Benchers who had the audacity to ask, in my view, extremely relevant questions of his ability to continue to lead the party.

What approach should he have taken? He allowed the party to vote; They voted him back in. They could have not voted him back in. I dont really see what other approach he could take.

gpjordanf1

InchicoreDude wrote: »

What approach should he have taken? He allowed the party to vote; They voted him back in. They could have not voted him back in. I dont really see what other approach he could take.

Agreed, these front benchers that wanted to lead the party into the next election couldn't even convince 70 people they work with in a day to day situation, nevermind convince a nation to vote for them.

Enda showed his leadership abbilities by showing that these backstabbers are only the pretenders, all talk and no action!
And most of the talking went on behind the party's back also, shows their qualities in fairness.

fatboypee

InchicoreDude wrote: »

What approach should he have taken? He allowed the party to vote; They voted him back in. They could have not voted him back in. I dont really see what other approach he could take.

It is not about the vote. It is about the reaction to the challenge. The manner in which he moved to invalidate and (in my view) discredit Bruton is very much the issue here. Whether he won the vote or not is moot. He was asked (by those he chose to lead his shadow cabinet) to review his position. Not for one moment did he do so. Not for a flickering instant did he doubt himself. ONE MAN above all those on the front bench of similar mind as to his abilities (or lack thereof). Abilities we, as the electorate have known and voted upon ad-nauseum.

Those actions were as damming as they were decisive and more to the point, actions of an autocrat without the ability to recognise his limitations.

Then again, tell me something I don't already know!!!

fatboypee

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Agreed, these front benchers that wanted to lead the party into the next election couldn't even convince 70 people they work with in a day to day situation, nevermind convince a nation to vote for them.

Enda showed his leadership abbilities by showing that these backstabbers are only the pretenders, all talk and no action!
And most of the talking went on behind the party's back also, shows their qualities in fairness.

So, he fills a cabinet with those who would depose him? IS there NO credence in the possibility that they are perhaps (like the rest of us) sick and tired of Mr Kenny's weak, ineffectual, apathetic, ambling leadership and finally got so fed up with it moved to have him removed??? No credence whatsoever ???

Amusing that really, as, if they're all just backstabbers, why did Mr Kenny not move to reshuffle them ALL before now then ????

InchicoreDude

He was asked (by those he chose to lead his shadow cabinet) to review his position. Not for one moment did he do so

How do you know he did not review his position? I would imagine that privately, He would have considered all the options available to him. Once, He decided to take on Bruton, He could hardly come out and say that he looked at himself and then decided to accept the leadership challenge, Then everybody who complains about Kenny would be saying "Look, He doesnt even have confidence in himself"! To me, it seems that regardless of what Kenny did during the last week, you would have people still complaining.

fatboypee

InchicoreDude wrote: »

How do you know he did not review his position? I would imagine that privately, He would have considered all the options available to him. Once, He decided to take on Bruton, He could hardly come out and say that he looked at himself and then decided to accept the leadership challenge, Then everybody who complains about Kenny would be saying "Look, He doesnt even have confidence in himself"! To me, it seems that regardless of what Kenny did during the last week, you would have people still complaining.

Ohhh no no no.. do you not believe he would have told us so ? I.e. something like "I have considered what my colleagues on the front bench have said to me and in particular Mr Bruton and I have decided to allow the party to vote upon who they want as leader" ???

Did we get anything resembling that? (I must have missed it then if we did), or did we get the sacking of an extremely eminent and respected Shadow Finance Minister and the threat (if not acrual) of the sacking of any other front bencher who had the temerity to vote with Mr Bruton ?

InchicoreDude

So, he fills a cabinet with those who would depose him? IS there NO credence in the possibility that they are perhaps (like the rest of us) sick and tired of Mr Kenny's weak, ineffectual, apathetic, ambling leadership and finally got so fed up with it moved to have him removed??? No credence whatsoever ???

Amusing that really, as, if they're all just backstabbers, why did Mr Kenny not move to reshuffle them ALL before now then ????

He should not fill the frontbench with people who opposed him or with people who backed him. He should fill it with the best people for the job. Presumably, some of the members of the frontbench have not lived up to their expectations since being appointed there and a "reshuffle" should be seen as a welcome opportunity. Similar to when Cowen changed his cabinet a while back. Therefore, this is the chance to rid the frontbench of the people who Kenny sees as not performing as well as they should.

Ohhh no no no.. do you not believe he would have told us so ? I.e. something like "I have considered what my colleagues on the front bench have said to me and in particular Mr Bruton and I have decided to allow the party to vote upon who they want as leader" ???

What difference would it have made? The end result is a vote within the party.

frant2

inda shouts victorious 'UP MAYO', the rest of us shake our heads in wonder, Inda is a winner. all those hours practicing in front of the mirror has paid off.

FG have shown us they are incapable of the tactics or the vision that is required to lead this country. Their ineptitude is only matched by Fine Fails (Brian Lenihan excluded) gombeen cute hoor self interest.

Inda pleeeese for the sake of my kids go away.:mad:

gpjordanf1

fatboypee wrote: »

It is not about the vote. It is about the reaction to the challenge. The manner in which he moved to invalidate and (in my view) discredit Bruton is very much the issue here. Whether he won the vote or not is moot. He was asked (by those he chose to lead his shadow cabinet) to review his position. Not for one moment did he do so. Not for a flickering instant did he doubt himself. ONE MAN above all those on the front bench of similar mind as to his abilities (or lack thereof). Abilities we, as the electorate have known and voted upon ad-nauseum.

Those actions were as damming as they were decisive and more to the point, actions of an autocrat without the ability to recognise his limitations.

Then again, tell me something I don't already know!!!

He put forward the motion of confidence, he put himself in front of the party and asked them to Judge. You cant be fairer than that.

fatboypee wrote: »

So, he fills a cabinet with those who would depose him? IS there NO credence in the possibility that they are perhaps (like the rest of us) sick and tired of Mr Kenny's weak, ineffectual, apathetic, ambling leadership and finally got so fed up with it moved to have him removed??? No credence whatsoever ???

Amusing that really, as, if they're all just backstabbers, why did Mr Kenny not move to reshuffle them ALL before now then ????

As I said they were plotting behind his back ( for some time apparently ), all smiles to his face and two faced behind it all.

You say tired of Kenny like the rest of us? There has been no election that I'm aware of recently?
The poll has been proved to be flawed and is only based on small numbers, hardly a national reflection.

I'm sure you'll use your vote wisely in the next election. As I'm sure alot of peoople will, I expect the poll count to be significantly up on last time.
I also suspect alot of floaters will come to FG on the day as they will be unable to stomach more FF - Green coalition or go to Labor ( they dont have the numbers ). Just IMO.

gpjordanf1

frant2 wrote: »

inda shouts victorious 'UP MAYO', the rest of us shake our heads in wonder, Inda is a winner. all those hours practicing in front of the mirror has paid off.

FG have shown us they are incapable of the tactics or the vision that is required to lead this country. Their ineptitude is only matched by Fine Fails (Brian Lenihan excluded) gombeen cute hoor self interest.

Inda pleeeese for the sake of my kids go away.:mad:

4 posts in and a spelling a lesson, inda is not correct, Enda is.

He did not shout Up Mayo, his supportes did and they were asked to stop by party officials.

Why would you want Enda to go away?

fatboypee

InchicoreDude wrote: »

He should not fill the frontbench with people who opposed him or with people who backed him. He should fill it with the best people for the job. Presumably, some of the members of the frontbench have not lived up to their expectations since being appointed there and a "reshuffle" should be seen as a welcome opportunity. Similar to when Cowen changed his cabinet a while back. Therefore, this is the chance to rid the frontbench of the people who Kenny sees as not performing as well as they should.

The only driver for the reshuffle is the leadership challenge. Up to this point, no mention was made of ANY front bench member not making the grade. I did however note some comments made on newstalk as to the absence of Mr Bruton on occasions relating to financein the past few months. Interestingly those comments were made BEFORE The vote of confidence... :rolleyes:

InchicoreDude wrote: »

What difference would it have made? The end result is a vote within the party.

EVERY difference to me. I do not want a taoseach leading this country who can act so autocratically without the (appearing) slightest regard either for democracy or entertaining of the possibility that perhaps he, rather than all his front bench may be at issue...???? That bothers me extremely.

fatboypee

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

He put forward the motion of confidence, he put himself in front of the party and asked them to Judge. You cant be fairer than that.



As I said they were plotting behind his back ( for some time apparently ), all smiles to his face and two faced behind it all.

You say tired of Kenny like the rest of us? There has been no election that I'm aware of recently?
The poll has been proved to be flawed and is only based on small numbers, hardly a national reflection.

I'm sure you'll use your vote wisely in the next election. As I'm sure alot of peoople will, I expect the poll count to be significantly up on last time.
I also suspect alot of floaters will come to FG on the day as they will be unable to stomach more FF - Green coalition or go to Labor ( they dont have the numbers ). Just IMO.

The reason I am so animated on this issue is purely that Mr Kenny and his party represent the ONLY alternative we have right now to removing what in my view is an exceptionally self-serving and less than straight government. Yet, it appears from this exercise, that Mr Kenny, far from having the party's best intentions at heart, has shown tendencies to be equally as self serviing as those he would replace. That disappoints and annoys me.

FWIW
I will use my vote well, as I have previously. I will simply spoil it. (a discussion for another day of course!)

Foxtrol

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

He did not shout Up Mayo, his supportes did and they were asked to stop by party officials.

It shows the type of people who supported and voted for him to stay on as leader. The type who enjoy jobs for "the lads" and parish politics. Popping bottles of champagne in Castlebar while their party has been torn to shreads.

Why would you want Enda to go away?

I want Enda to go away because his hypocritical selfishness has destroyed the chance of FG getting a outright majority and has gifted Labour an opportunity of becoming the biggest party after the next election.

gpjordanf1

fatboypee wrote: »

The reason I am so animated on this issue is purely that Mr Kenny and his party represent the ONLY alternative we have right now to removing what in my view is an exceptionally self-serving and less than straight government. Yet, it appears from this exercise, that Mr Kenny, far from having the party's best intentions at heart, has shown tendencies to be equally as self serviing as those he would replace. That disappoints and annoys me.

This is the bit I dont understand, he did put himself infront of the party and asked them to vote on his leadership, he allowed a secret ballot (unlike the scum thats in power now),he won fair and square. If there was truly that sentiment in the party about his lack of qualities, then he would have lost by a landslide. He did not he won comfortably.
What did people expect him to do, his right hand man was asked on Ntional TV do you support you leader and he refused to answer.
If you done the same to your boss, team leader etc, what would you think would happen next, you'd be sacked too or at the very least be up on disiplinary charges.
Kenny showed he was a leader by tackling traitors head on.
He done everything right. And he won and I say Fair play Enda!

fatboypee wrote: »

FWIW
I will use my vote well, as I have previously. I will simply spoil it. (a discussion for another day of course!)

Must admit I am suprised by that!

Foxtrol

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

This is the bit I dont understand, he did put himself infront of the party and asked them to vote on his leadership, he allowed a secret ballot (unlike the scum thats in power now),he won fair and square. If there was truly that sentiment in the party about his lack of qualities, then he would have lost by a landslide. He did not he won comfortably.

Enda and his supporters no longer have a right to take issue with FF clinging to power. FF like Enda were elected by their electorate and have a right to stay there until they call an election or lose a confidence motion. Just like Enda they are extremely unpopular but they also haven't been defeated in a confidence motion. Enda and his supporters have lost their highground on this issues and I hope its rubbed in their faces.

Laminations

Tipp Man wrote: »

You've got me completly wrong. I'm not a FF'er at all, in fact have never voted in this state (Uni and working abroad for a few years). I've no idea where you got the idea that I was FFer. I have no alligence to any party but I do know that I am no leftie. (intruiged as to why you think I'm a FF'er??

Apologies Tipp Man, I try and keep the names of the 12 or so FFers on this forum in my head and your name must've accidentally crept in there. So in your position stating what you did about Labour does not make you a hypocrite.

I will agree with you on Bertie being a total sham but I think I'm right in including McCreevy

In 2008 as Ireland entered recession[7] McCreevy, has been cited as the worst minister for finance in the history of the State and is one of the reasons why the global financial crisis is hitting Ireland especially hard, due to his "light touch" regulation of the financial system.[8]
Former Taoiseach Garret FitzGerald has attributed Ireland's dire economic state in 2009, on a series of "calamitous" government policy errors by the then Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy, who between the years of 2000 and 2003, boosted public spending by 48pc while cutting income tax.[9]

Mal-Adjusted

tbh, i always had time for FG under Kenny, the best of a bad lot so to speak, but would you vote for a party that gets rattled like this just over the results of one poll?

Laminations

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

tbh, i always had time for FG under Kenny, the best of a bad lot so to speak, but would you vote for a party that gets rattled like this just over the results of one poll?

I dont think its fair to say it was just over one poll. It is the fact FF have lost 25 %points and FG havent picked up any of that slump.

Would you vote for a party that doesnt get rattled by the results of countless polls, the opinions of several experts, the contents of two banking reports, the revelation of perjury amongst the cabinet, the abuse of members expenses..... etc. etc.??
FF is a party that should be in turmoil deciding a new direction and punishing the culpable members for their incompetence. Instead it votes confidence in them. Kenny has so far been ineffective but not really incompetent or instrumental in the downfall of the country. Would you vote for a party united in failure?

InchicoreDude

InchicoreDude wrote: »

What approach should he have taken? He allowed the party to vote; They voted him back in. They could have not voted him back in. I dont really see what other approach he could take.

But he was voted back in by those in the personality bubble.
What worries me is that the Kennyites are completely ignoring the perception out there that Kenny is a gomdaw.
There was an FG councillor on frontline saying he gets this on the doorstep all the time ie floating voters that would vote for FG except they don't think kenny is fit for purpose.


They do know this or at least a lot of them do but can't do anything about it.
*shudder*

frant2

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

4 posts in and a spelling a lesson, inda is not correct, Enda is.

He did not shout Up Mayo, his supportes did and they were asked to stop by party officials.

Why would you want Enda to go away?

gpjordanf1
Sorry - it was reported on a newshow that he shouted UP MAYO so Ill retract point 1. Second point - I want Inda (sic) to go away because he is the leader of what was a vitally important party in the future of Irelands. Poles have shown over the past few years that he does not connect with the electorate but I have defended him as I feel he is honest enough and had Irelands interest at heart, however the events of the past week have shown him to be a bad party leader who has lost most of the talent in his front bench - end result we might get Noonan instead of Bruton as shadow Minister of Finance. He has lost the dressing room and I think his staying will seriously weaken FGs vote. Inda is Cowens secret weapon, speaking to FF supporters they were delighted that Bruton lost.

fatboypee

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

This is the bit I dont understand, he did put himself infront of the party and asked them to vote on his leadership, he allowed a secret ballot (unlike the scum thats in power now),he won fair and square.

Again, it's not about the vote. It's simply the manner in which he approached the challenge. I know I don't know everything on this, there may well have been a plot to oust him. However, being a leader as Mr Kenny aspires to be, should dictate that he deals with these issues properly, above all, democratically and to do so by being beyond reproach (thereby taking the higher ground and with it, the respect of the electorate). He acted wholly autocratically in sacking Mr Bruton and threatening to sack the rest of the front bench. To me, in doing this (along with what I heard in the media regarding Mr Brutons (sudden) ineptitude) he lost any respect I had for him as, if he had simply come out, acted a little bewildered over the challenge and then subjected himself to the vote willingly. AND THEN dealt with the proclaimers to the throne once he won, he would have retained both his integrity and credibility yet shown determination, humility and courage to accede to the request of THE WHOLE front bench (whom he placed in their positions).

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Must admit I am suprised by that!

Believe me, I would dearly love an opportunity to vote for a party that has both wit & Guile enough to put my interests before their own (and perhaps get us out of this sh1t mess we're in). Sadly, I see none. Especially now Mr Kenny has placed himself before party & country. In my view there really is nothing out there worth voting for now.

JP Liz V1

what will happen to the party members who voted against him now?

Rookster

Enda Kenny has basically put his own interest above those of his party. FG would do much better in the next Gen Election without him as leader.

Deise Tom

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

i always had time for FG under Kenny, the best of a bad lot so to speak,

Does not say much about the rest does it