Enda wins

bytey

act 1 scene 1
* the dail bar - brian cowen sits with members of his cabinet *

the discussion turns from
' phew Brian , we got away with you being an incompetent **** for the last few years and destroying the country , and blaming on Lehmans "

to

'he he , now that Endas still at the helm, you can bet the morons who pay our wages ,and who we sh!t upon
from a height , ( while they never even peep about it , the fcuking idiots ) - will now turn from FG and have to look
longingly at us and our little green lick spittles.

its been a great 3 years , heres to more of the same another 7 - the stupid c.unts will put as back , apparently theyd rather shaft FG
than FF.

you were right all along , you and Bertie -
the irish tax payers - Morons , the lot of em.

lugha

thetonynator wrote: »

I wasn't either, doesn't mean you should vote for me.

No, but it's a reason to not not vote for you.

The_Thing

Those dumb, arrogant, blue-shirts - stupid enough to do this to themselves and people were actually going to vote for them?

I gave up alcohol completely when Lenihan introduced the pension levy - he took money off me, I just took it back off him another way - but I'll be buying a round to celebrate the blue-shirts idiocy come Saturday night if anyone's interested.

Tipp Man

rugbyman wrote: »

A number of posters are still referring to those on the Fg front bench who HAVE no confidence in their leader. I think that since this evening they, the Fg resigners, have had the error of their ways corrected by the larger FG parliamentary party.

I imagine that if any of them are asked in public ,about their loyalty tomorow, none will say boo.

Rugbyman

How is it an error of their ways? enda didn't have the confidence of more than half of the front bench that he selected. He's a lame duck leader now as very nearly half of the political party don't have confidence in him either

8 years in charge of FG and 75% of the population of this country don't want him as taoiseach, and that is without him ever being in charge of this country and ever having to ACTUALLY make a decision for this country. 8 years is a long time to be a leader, how many leaders get the opportunity to go to 3 general elections. Its now or never for FG and without a change it looks like never

The numbers simply don't stack up for him to ever be leader of this country. There was a time for change at FG and the party have stupidly turned their backs to it

I'm not a FG man (or any other party) by the way but was looking for an alternative to FF, Is Enda really the right man??

nacho libre

lugha wrote: »

Seriously, do the people who come out with this pish even think about what nonsense it is? A good reason would be that he has engaged in or facilitated corruption or that he has shown himself incompetent in office or that he lacks experience? In short, is he fit for the job. Pretty much the kind of assessment you would make if you were hiring a plumber.

perhaps because he is a good reciter, but lousy debater, who can't go off-script - or if he does he struggles badly - is a reason many people are put off voting for him.
A leader must inspire confidence. He doesn't do this because he regularly gets flummoxed when discussing his own parties policies


So while i've no doubt he is amiable, honest and full of integrity it's not a good enough reason to vote for him or anyone, nor of course is the fact someone is a cute whoor, who is good good craic down the pub or the fact they're a great person for funerals...
you may feel what i said was nonsense but these were deemed the most important criteria for many people when deciding who they would vote for in rural areas throughout Ireland.

After the lessons of the last few years hopefully that will now finally change but on the evidence of today's parochial triumphalism by some maybe it hasn't died out completely.

rugbyman

Tipp Man wrote: »

How is it an error of their ways? enda didn't have the confidence of more than half of the front bench that he selected. He's a lame duck leader now as very nearly half of the political party don't have confidence in him either

8 years in charge of FG and 75% of the population of this country don't want him as taoiseach, and that is without him ever being in charge of this country and ever having to ACTUALLY make a decision for this country. 8 years is a long time to be a leader, how many leaders get the opportunity to go to 3 general elections. Its now or never for FG and without a change it looks like never

The numbers simply don't stack up for him to ever be leader of this country. There was a time for change at FG and the party have stupidly turned their backs to it

I'm not a FG man (or any other party) by the way but was looking for an alternative to FF, Is Enda really the right man??

The point i am making is that if any of the "club of nine" plus bruton are asked tomorrow on Radio, "do you now support your leader", do you think for one second they will give the same answer as last week.

Coupp d 'etats, risings, putsch es, are all ok when you win. they lost and i seriously believe that the new Fg under Enda will do better and cause less bitterness in Fg than what would have emerged had the plotters had their way.

re your question "is enda the right man".. I cannot say for def but he is as good as any in the Dail and better than most. he is probably the best bet for you as you are seeking to oust FF. depending on who stands for Fg or Labour in your constituency, you may need to think about which to vote for to effect change.

Regards,Rugbyman

Discodog

Enda the great reuniter of the party that he has now split in two. His priorities are:

1. Himself

2. The Party

3. The Country

Every one talks about the unreliable poll of 500 people & ignores the Liveline poll of 8000 who voted overwhelmingly for Bruton.

FG have shown that they have no real desire to win power. They will take it if it comes on a plate but they won't fight for it. They expect to win the next election & their complacency is making them almost arrogant.

Tipp Man

rugbyman wrote: »

The point i am making is that if any of the "club of nine" plus bruton are asked tomorrow on Radio, "do you now support your leader", do you think for one second they will give the same answer as last week.

Coupp d 'etats, risings, putsch es, are all ok when you win. they lost and i seriously believe that the new Fg under Enda will do better and cause less bitterness in Fg than what would have emerged had the plotters had their way.

re your question "is enda the right man".. I cannot say for def but he is as good as any in the Dail and better than most. he is probably the best bet for you as you are seeking to oust FF. depending on who stands for Fg or Labour in your constituency, you may need to think about which to vote for to effect change.

Regards,Rugbyman

I'd rot in hell before I'd give Labour or any one of that ilk my vote but thats a different matter!

The band of 10 might say tomorrow that they support enda but we all know now thats rubbish and are saying it to get back on the front bench, when under no pressure they showed their colours and said they had no confidence in enda

I fail to see how fg will do better now that enda won, he has been in charge for 8 years after all, and i fail to see how enda in charge has a better chance of ousting FF, no opinion poll in 8 years has shown us that enda is the people's choice to do that

you only have to read what floating voters on this thread have said to see that this is only going to reduce fg's vote getting ability

heyjude

Don't see how Kenny can regard this as a real victory, if the margin was 6 votes - he has 11 front bench vacancies to fill (plus there's also the possible promise of future junior ministerial posts), which more than covers his majority and if, as has been suggested all 4 MEPs and most of the 15 FG Senators supported Kenny, that suggests a majority of FG TDs voted against him and that perhaps most of those TDs that did support him, did so because of the prospect of a future front bench or junior ministerial position and not because of any deep confidence in his leadership ability or belief that the public wants Kenny as the next Taoiseach.

Fianna Fail will be delighted, for despite how low they sink in the polls, they are probably heartened by how many voters have told them that they'd like to support Fine Gael but that they can't support Enda Kenny and now just when it looked as though this lifeline was about to be snatched away, Kenny has survived to give Fianna Fail hope, that they can again survive in power after the next election. It also gives hope to Brian Cowen that with FG imploding, Fianna Fail won't feel the need to ditch him.

sceptre

Tipp Man wrote: »

you only have to read what floating voters on this thread have said to see that this is only going to reduce fg's vote getting ability

Bottom line is that Fine Gael led by Enda Kenny is less palatable and less electable then Fine Gael led by someone else like, say, Richard Bruton. Far less palatable and far less electable I reckon.

It's not a question of charisma, it's a question of perceived competence. Enda Kenny's quite possibly going to be Tanaiste in the next government whereas a personnel change would make the replacement leader Taoiseach. What the FG parliamentary party have failed to realise when making their decision as a whole is that if the possibility of a Labour-led government as an alternative to FF becomes more likely, it makes that possibility even more likely merely by virtue of it being a reasonable possibility. And at that point if FG become the secondary party in an alternative to FF scenario, they're not likely to regain their former position as their hardcore vote support is actually less than that of FF.

That by definition also rubbishes a second assumption they made today and that some of them explicitly stated: that there's short-term loss with the upheaval and the support for Kenny but that it'll be worth it in the long run.

So it's entirely possible that their actions today may have consigned FG to the also-rans of Irish politics. Especially as a growing number of people in the past few years have managed to throw off the shadow of civil war politics and tend to see FF and FG as not that removed from each other - after all, FG doesn't have even the same social outlook these days as it attempted to have under Fitzgerald and Dukes, for example (irrespective of whether you liked that social outlook or not, it was definably and demonstrably different to the alternative).

I could be wrong of course and it might not make that much of a difference. But still, Fine Gael led by Enda Kenny is less palatable and less electable then Fine Gael led by someone else like, say, Richard Bruton. Most of the parliamentary party may never realise that but someone correctly made the point that the last time a government of Ireland was disliked more than this one, it was the Conservative government of Andrew Bonar Law that was ruling Ireland from a different country from 1918. Led by Enda Kenny, they've failed to make significant ground against a government disliked that much. As damning criticism goes, that's about as bad as one can get.

Breezer

deanh wrote: »

obviously, How else would you explain the Flynasty? But, in a democracy their opinions are as valid as anyones.

I never said they weren't. And you appear to have missed my sarcasm.

Mezcita

sceptre wrote: »

Bottom line is that Fine Gael led by Enda Kenny is less palatable and less electable then Fine Gael led by someone else like, say, Richard Bruton. Far less palatable and far less electable I reckon.

It's not a question of charisma, it's a question of perceived competence. Enda Kenny's quite possibly going to be Tanaiste in the next government whereas a personnel change would make the replacement leader Taoiseach. What the FG parliamentary party have failed to realise when making their decision as a whole is that if the possibility of a Labour-led government as an alternative to FF becomes more likely, it makes that possibility even more likely merely by virtue of it being a reasonable possibility. And at that point if FG become the secondary party in an alternative to FF scenario, they're not likely to regain their former position as their hardcore vote support is actually less than that of FF.

That by definition also rubbishes a second assumption they made today and that some of them explicitly stated: that there's short-term loss with the upheaval and the support for Kenny but that it'll be worth it in the long run.

So it's entirely possible that their actions today may have consigned FG to the also-rans of Irish politics. Especially as a growing number of people in the past few years have managed to throw off the shadow of civil war politics and tend to see FF and FG as not that removed from each other - after all, FG doesn't have even the same social outlook these days as it attempted to have under Fitzgerald and Dukes, for example (irrespective of whether you liked that social outlook or not, it was definably and demonstrably different to the alternative).

I could be wrong of course and it might not make that much of a difference. But still, Fine Gael led by Enda Kenny is less palatable and less electable then Fine Gael led by someone else like, say, Richard Bruton. Most of the parliamentary party may never realise that but whoever made the point that the last time a government of Ireland was disliked more than this one, it was the Conservative government of Andrew Bonar Law that was ruling Ireland from a different country from 1918. Led by Enda Kenny, they've failed to make significant ground against a government disliked that much. As damning criticism goes, that's about as bad as one can get.

Spot on. Their failure to gain significant ground on FF is the biggest farce of all. Realistically FF couldn't have had a more disasterous couple of years if they had tried.

It sounds mental but I think we need our own Obama. Not saying he's the messiah or anything but just somebody to get Irish people interested in voting for a party that actually wants to make a significant change to the way things are going. Instead of the usual shower of eejits looking after number one and slagging each other off in the Dail.

If there was an election tomorrow I actually have no idea who I would vote for. And that's the worst bit of all. No political parties which actually look any way decent.

IrishTonyO

Mezcita wrote: »

Spot on. Their failure to gain significant ground on FF is the biggest farce of all. Realistically FF couldn't have had a more disasterous couple of years if they had tried.

It sounds mental but I think we need our own Obama. Not saying he's the messiah or anything but just somebody to get Irish people interested in voting for a party that actually wants to make a significant change to the way things are going. Instead of the usual shower of eejits looking after number one and slagging each other off in the Dail.

If there was an election tomorrow I actually have no idea who I would vote for. And that's the worst bit of all. No political parties which actually look any way decent.

yeah have to agree I have no clue who to vote for next time, but would be tempted to vote Fine Gael after today ( I voted Green last time and it is not a mistake I will be making any-time soon again). I think the whole FG heave has made me have more respect for Enda Kenny. Time will tell over the next 6 months or so. But Richard Bruton has gone down in my estimation, not for making the challenge, but for the timing of it. Very ill-advised. I would not normally have been a either a fan or a detractor of Enda Kenny, but actually found myself hoping that he would win. But we could really do with a new party or revamped party, that is not bull**** and straight to the point. One that at the sign of even the slightest corruption etc would remove the person involved immediately and then run an enquiry afterwards. We need straight talking politicians and not popular politicians as they can be popular for all the wrong reasons.

Breezer

IrishTonyO wrote: »

I think the whole FG heave has made me have more respect for Enda Kenny.

I've always respected his ability to organise people, and he proved that in abundance today. Unfortunately, as I've said earlier (can't remember if it was this thread or not), it's not about Enda Kenny anymore, it's about Fine Gael. And I simply can't see how the party can perform without its front bench, or with a front bench that has miraculously recovered confidence in Kenny. The attitude of some of Kenny's supporters was very revealing, and I'm assuming a number of these will be getting promotions now.

Plenty of waiting and seeing to be done as regards who I'll vote for now, but it's not looking good for Fine Gael.

femur61

6 votes not really a victory. Plus FG people are obviously not internet sava because they would keep up to date on social networks, like this one, to read the public are not in any way enamoured with Enda.

I'm not from D4 or from Dublin, but do have a television and can see that Enda is inept.

pazza

How am I, as a "floating voter" supposed to believe that yesterday @ 14:00 the majority of the FG TD's didn;t believe Enda was the man to take the country forward, and now we should somehow forget this and back him. I heard one FG talk on radio about "coasting into government". All politics is parocial, FG think its ok for "them" to have no confidence but a different matter for us (the poor down-throden electorate). I am further confused about who to vote (when we do get the chance), I don;t want FF, but will a Labour vote (from me) make Enda taoiseach (heaven forbid)...

If he stays below 30 next poll and keeps falling,then thats the only medicine for the eejits.

Vincent Browne last night said in his last interview with kenny,he hadn't a clue and was being prompted and corrected by his minders just like last week when he was on the radio about banking.

If fg are fooled by a buffoon or are prepared to lie down like yesterday,then they deserve the ignominy of defeat.

The only choice is labour now.
Never mind the all things to all men/women policy they have.
Its nothing to worry about as they too will ditch the unreasonable when in office as the eu and foreign banks will say no.
So don't worry there folks.It can't get much worse.

Just punish ff and fg and vote labour in droves.

BlaasForRafa

pazza wrote: »

How am I, as a "floating voter" supposed to believe that yesterday @ 14:00 the majority of the FG TD's didn;t believe Enda was the man to take the country forward, and now we should somehow forget this and back him. I heard one FG talk on radio about "coasting into government". All politics is parocial, FG think its ok for "them" to have no confidence but a different matter for us (the poor down-throden electorate). I am further confused about who to vote (when we do get the chance), I don;t want FF, but will a Labour vote (from me) make Enda taoiseach (heaven forbid)...

If we presume that Fianna Fail get damaged in the next election and are unable to form a coalition or minority government then it will most likely be up to FG and Labour and more than likely whichever party is biggest will get the Taoiseach job.

FG have inherent advantages which make being a bigger party easier than Labour, they have a bigger core vote, they have a bigger party machine and they field multiple candidates in every constituency which Labour up till now has never done or ever been capable of.

Another thing that puts it in perspective, the last major swing that Labour got, the "Spring Tide" in 1992 netted them 33 seats. FGs worst performance that I can recall was 2002 when they got 31 seats.

Tipp Man

Deleted User wrote: »

.

Just punish ff and fg and vote labour in droves.

Why on earth vote labour? do you want to keep our vastly overinflated and overpaid public sector recession proof? do you want to keep our public sector as the new royalty of modern Ireland?

Do you want us mugs as taxpayers to keep paying for the waste and laziness of this public sector? Because that's what a vote for labour will do (as can be clearly seen from their complete lack of any input into how PS reform should take place)

And how and who do you (by you i mean labour) propose will pay for the Irish royalty that is the Irish PS?? Thats right increased taxes, and as I believe you are a landowner I wonder how labour feels about introducing a land tax?

Laminations

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why on earth vote labour? do you want to keep our vastly overinflated and overpaid public sector recession proof? do you want to keep our public sector as the new royalty of modern Ireland?

I may be wrong but aren't you a FFer? If so, please keep in mind how incredibly hypocritical you sound when you lambaste labour for their possible maintenance of a bloated and overpaid sector that YOUR party created. If you have a problem with the PS don't blame the servants, blame the masters, blame Charlie 'i'll spend it when I have it' McCreevy, Bertie 'have some more money and go away, I'm busy counting my brown envelopes' Ahern and Brian 'i'll bust this economy yet' Cowen. Blame FF. Labour (Pat Rabbitte) has said there will be pay restraint in the PS for the foreseeable future. They have to acknowledge the economic reality created by FF

Tipp Man

Laminations wrote: »

I may be wrong but aren't you a FFer? If so, please keep in mind how incredibly hypocritical you sound when you lambaste labour for their possible maintenance of a bloated and overpaid sector that YOUR party created. If you have a problem with the PS don't blame the servants, blame the masters, blame Charlie 'i'll dpend it when I have it' McCreevy, Bertie 'have some more money and go away, I'm busy counting my brown envelopes' Ahern and Brian 'i'll bust this economy yet' Cowen. Blame FF. Labour (Pat Rabbitte) has said there will be pay restraint in the PS for the foreseeable future. They have to acknowledge the economic reality created by FF

You've got me completly wrong. I'm not a FF'er at all, in fact have never voted in this state (Uni and working abroad for a few years). I've no idea where you got the idea that I was FFer. I have no alligence to any party but I do know that I am no leftie. (intruiged as to why you think I'm a FF'er?? is it because i stated I wasn't a FGer either but I'm clearly a right of centre so I must be a FFer)

However your major point in the post remains that Bertie was the biggest socialist ever to run this state, he should have been a labour party leader not a FF leader, and he was very much abetted by the completly inept Cowen who only saw his chances of being leader improve every time he nodded the head in agreement with Bertie

I do think McCreevy is a bit hard done by when he is lumped in with Cowen and Bertie, when he left the country was still in decent shape and the public sector was still under control somewhat. You only have to look at what has happened since he left to see the huge increase in wages and staff numbers to see that he was not the main problem. If we could get the PS back to 2004 levels we wouldn't be in too bad shape.

fatboypee

It may have already been expressed in this thread (apologies, its long, read alot of it ), but, having ruminated on this for the last day, my incredulity appears to grow steadily. My point is this:

If I was MD of a company (not my company but employed as MD), and I filled that company with as many talented managers as there were key positions, then tasked them with managing their key areas and then, over time, for whatever reason, they all came to me and told me that they were ALL not happy with the way I was managing things as MD, I think I would look at them, at the trust I placed in them, then at myself and I would think, OooooK, WTF am I doing wrong that all the people I recruited and placed my trust in come to me in this way ?

So, to me, to sack the initial protagonist, then to follow up with threats (I may be late with this, maybe he did actually sack them all) to sack all key people (front bench) is at the very least extremely egotistic and arrogant and , yeah, I know, Politics is an egotistic occupation but honestly, who will he fill the vacant positions with ? (oh wait, all the wannabe second raters perhaps) ?.......

This incident, for me, underlines the one reason why Kenny could never, and should never be given an opportunity to govern this country.

femur61

I may be wrong but were the votes counted by FG (Enda supporters) and then shreded!

Tipp Man

fatboypee wrote: »

It may have already been expressed in this thread (apologies, its long, read alot of it ), but, having ruminated on this for the last day, my incredulity appears to grow steadily. My point is this:

If I was MD of a company (not my company but employed as MD), and I filled that company with as many talented managers as there were key positions, then tasked them with managing their key areas and then, over time, for whatever reason, they all came to me and told me that they were ALL not happy with the way I was managing things as MD, I think I would look at them, at the trust I placed in them, then at myself and I would think, OooooK, WTF am I doing wrong that all the people I recruited and placed my trust in come to me in this way ?

So, to me, to sack the initial protagonist, then to follow up with threats (I may be late with this, maybe he did actually sack them all) to sack all key people (front bench) is at the very least extremely egotistic and arrogant and , yeah, I know, Politics is an egotistic occupation but honestly, who will he fill the vacant positions with ? (oh wait, all the wannabe second raters perhaps) ?.......

This incident, for me, underlines the one reason why Kenny could never, and should never be given an opportunity to govern this country.

I'd have to agree with this, whatever about Bruton or 1 or 2 voicing dissatisfaction with him as soon as the majority of the front bench came out against him then IMO his position was untenable. Even now with the vote being so close his position is completly undermined, take out the MEP and senator votes and he would have lost yesterday, imagine that the leader of the main opposition party in this country doesn't have the confidence of the majority of guys (and ladies) sitting beside him in the dail, yet he continues?? Nevermind what the public undoubtly think.

He should really have resigned his position IMO

fatboypee

Tipp Man wrote: »

.... yet he continues?? Nevermind what the public undoubtly think.

He should really have resigned his position IMO

Thats the point though, isn't it ? His front bench, in unison, came to him to express their concerns. He reacted by sacking (or threatening to) all those who opposed his leadership. Now, put this in context and look at that action. Was this Democratic, or Autocratic ? Did he even, for one second, consider the party or country in the decision ? The decision, in my view has wholly undermined his position, nothing else, in that there was no contrition, no admissions of possible incapabilities, nothing. the pure arrogance of it all is simply jaw dropping.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ejmaztec

What a load of waffle from Deenihan. Does anyone really think that the result's going to make a difference on the ground, especially in his North Kerry constituency, where none of the parties does anything in particular, if at all?

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/

Kerry's two Fine Gael TDs, one Senator and one MEP all supported Enda Kenny going into yesterday's confidence vote. Speaking to Radio Kerry News this morning, North Kerry Deputy Jimmy Deenihan says he's confident he will keep his position on the Fine Gael frontbench. The party's Defence spokesperson says the outcome of the vote will be a good thing for Kerry in the long term.

Tipp Man

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'd have to agree with this, whatever about Bruton or 1 or 2 voicing dissatisfaction with him as soon as the majority of the front bench came out against him then IMO his position was untenable. Even now with the vote being so close his position is completly undermined, take out the MEP and senator votes and he would have lost yesterday, imagine that the leader of the main opposition party in this country doesn't have the confidence of the majority of guys (and ladies) sitting beside him in the dail, yet he continues?? Nevermind what the public undoubtly think.

He should really have resigned his position IMO

Agreed.

I dread the prospect of Enda "wheres me minder with the notes what did he say I was to say again" Kenny as Taoiseach and Dr Cry baby o'reilly as minister for finance...

It's enough to move you to despair.

InchicoreDude

I dread the prospect of Enda "wheres me minder with the notes what did he say I was to say again" Kenny as Taoiseach and Dr Cry baby o'reilly as minister for finance...

Reilly will not be finance. His speciality is health and he appears to have an excellent grasp on the health area. I'd imagine he will have to continue with that.

The common theme is that Michael Noonan will be the finance guy if Richard Bruton does not return

At least he won't need to be prompted..
I'm still not impressed.

As a gp if O'Reilly wasn't able to talk on health,We'd have to give up altogether.
He's still a plank though for not doing something about the public not liking kenny.
He must know about it.
He's ignored it at a cost I believe to FG.