is the leaving cert fair enough?

thomasj

its been a while since i sat my leaving cert but i sat college exams this year and something dawned on me:

Is the most important exam of your life fair enough?

Drawing comparisons between the leaving cert and college

1. Is there too long a wait for results?
Does the long wait destroy the summer holidays for students?

2. Should there be a mechanism for repeats for students a few months later? Is it fair that to repeat students have to do the following year?

3. Is the current system of viewing papers marked and appealing results fair enough?

4. Just to throw in is the current points system fair enough and how would you improve it

any thoughts?

Hatred

thomasj wrote: »

1. Is there too long a wait for results?
Does the long wait destroy the summer holidays for students?

I don't think its THAT long considering its your life right there and you'd want them to take their time and correct it properly.
I can't speak for everyone but i doubt the wait for results will effect my summer holidays... in fact the leaving cert isn't even affecting my holidays so far

I wouldn't mind seeing the score for projects/practicles seperatly though.

Cipango

Hatred wrote: »

I wouldn't mind seeing the score for projects/practicles seperatly though.

Same! I wanna know how i did in my orals! Like my spanish was a disaster and im fairly fluent...had every topic off! Then she kept asking me these imposible questions that made me very uncomfortable and i did s**t! Was so mad, nearly balled my eyes out!

Anyway, i wanna know if it would have brought my grade down or up!

Cipango

thomasj wrote: »

Does the long wait destroy the summer holidays for students?

I think everyone starts thinking about it when august comes round! Apart from that you should enjoy the summer!

vicksterchick

To be honest, I completely disagree with the whole Leaving Cert system. I think it's unfair that our entire lives should hinge on one set of exams.

Continuous assessment FTW!

FordieMUFC

To be honest I think the Whole concept of the leaving cert is ridiculous. It's pretty much leaving peoples futures hang in the balance. People aren't rewarded for consistency, if you **** up on the day then it can mean goodbye to your course you know?
I mean, e.g. in Business the other day I have been getting B1's-A'1's all year in school, worked my ass off for it, literally knew almost everything Important and which always pops up, anything that was posed to me from previous years I could deal with, then they threw in a question which was worth almost 40% of a question which literally has like 4 lines in my textbook and there were a few others. I just see that as really unfair tbh.

Cian92

It certainly isn't fair. However, it is people like me who benefit from it. I have been given every available help to do well, grinds, support etc.

Of course what happens to those who don't have the same opportunities as me? Can't afford grinds, go to school in a disadvantaged area, parents not supportive of education, have a learning disability? Of course if everybody had the same opportunities, it would be a level playing field. I mightn't like it, but it would be fair. This however is unrealistic.

wonderfulname

1. Is there too long a wait for results?

No, I prefer that the marking scheme is set according to how students did overall rather than it simply existing as an ideal scenario, and examiners already have an incredible workload in correcting, increasing that to move up the results date would just result in more incorrectly marked scripts.

Does the long wait destroy the summer holidays for students?

Only if they have nothing to do with their lives

2. Should there be a mechanism for repeats for students a few months later?

No, as above, that would bring a lot of complications.

Is it fair that to repeat students have to do the following year?

Perfectly fair, I did it this year and it allowed me to actually increase grades substantially rather than cramming for the elusive pass as you see undergrads do, and also see above.

3. Is the current system of viewing papers marked and appealing results fair enough?

Yes, the only way to satisfy yourself as to whether your script was subject to human error in marking is to see it yourself.

4. Just to throw in is the current points system fair enough and how would you improve it

In some ways yes in others no. The idea that only the better students get the available places is good. The inclusion of aptitude tests to all courses rather than just medicine would be a vast improvement though, as your points do not necessarily measure your ability in a certain area.


Also to the above, you can see your practical grades if you chose to view your scripts.

OP, I find myself questioning your motives.

dambarude

I agree that it's not fair to have certain subjects (like Chemistry for e.g.) relying 100% on one exam.

I'd like to know what people mean when they say continuous assessment though. Do they mean having an exam at the end of every term in 5th and 6th year? Or do they mean project work? Or a mix of both?

I don't think that project work is the answer to the LC's problems. In many ways it's open to cheating and passing somebody else's work as one's own. When I was doing my LC many people had their uncle who was a carpenter make their construction studies project for them. Other people had Ag Science folders which were passed down from year to year and tweaked here and there. A lot of thought would have to be put into how project work would work if it was to be worth a substantial amount of any grade. (I realise that with projects in subjects like DCG it is not as easy to cheat in).

Having a few, rather than one, exams would be a good idea IMO, but there would be problems with that too. Costs being the main one. Whatever happens I don't think it would be a good idea to have teachers assessing their own pupils just because it would cheaper (like what has been suggested for the JC).

wonderfulname

Cian92-

Can't afford grinds - not a big deal
go to school in a disadvantaged area - there is a special class for these schools they receive extra funding to combat it, it works, also HEAR
parents not supportive of education - know many for whom this is a reality but not an issue
have a learning disability - extra marks, extra time, breaks in exams, special needs assistant, access through DARE i could go on..
Of course if everybody had the same opportunities, it would be a level playing field - it is, its just some people choose not to play the game

ride-the-spiral

There are alot of parts of the leaving cert. that can be considered unfair.

Having to work against the clock, some people just work things out slower than other people, and some people write slower than others. In the real world you will have to work for deadlines, but never anything as precise as not getting something finished within 10 or 15 minutes.

The points system in itself. We have to study 6-8 subjects covering a range of topics, and with alot of people, doing well in each subject counts for a good chunk of points. Because of this, people have to do well in weak areas and areas not relevant to what they really want to do in order to get their course. Somebody who's gifted at Physics, Maths, or could be a great Doctor, might miss out on their course because they didn't do well in French, or Geography. One could say that it produces a more well rounded individual though.

thomasj

wonderfulname wrote: »

1. Is there too long a wait for results?

No, I prefer that the marking scheme is set according to how students did overall rather than it simply existing as an ideal scenario, and examiners already have an incredible workload in correcting, increasing that to move up the results date would just result in more incorrectly marked scripts.

Does the long wait destroy the summer holidays for students?

Only if they have nothing to do with their lives

2. Should there be a mechanism for repeats for students a few months later?

No, as above, that would bring a lot of complications.

Is it fair that to repeat students have to do the following year?

Perfectly fair, I did it this year and it allowed me to actually increase grades substantially rather than cramming for the elusive pass as you see undergrads do, and also see above.

3. Is the current system of viewing papers marked and appealing results fair enough?

Yes, the only way to satisfy yourself as to whether your script was subject to human error in marking is to see it yourself.

4. Just to throw in is the current points system fair enough and how would you improve it

In some ways yes in others no. The idea that only the better students get the available places is good. The inclusion of aptitude tests to all courses rather than just medicine would be a vast improvement though, as your points do not necessarily measure your ability in a certain area.


Also to the above, you can see your practical grades if you chose to view your scripts.

OP, I find myself questioning your motives.

nah ive nothing to gain from this, if i gave this vibe from my first post i apologise.

It was just something that cropped up earlier, we were comparing leaving cert now to 2001 and it was just we metioned whether the examination structures in colleges and marking schemes which include continous assessment could work in the leaving cert.

It seems the one chance of all studying building upto a few weeks of exams and then a few months of uncertainty and the preassure of points, it just had me thinking should the assessment be spread out.

No agenda, no motive, just curiousity, honest!

fufureida

thomasj wrote: »

its been a while since i sat my leaving cert but i sat college exams this year and something dawned on me:

Is the most important exam of your life fair enough?

Drawing comparisons between the leaving cert and college

1. Is there too long a wait for results?
Does the long wait destroy the summer holidays for students?

2. Should there be a mechanism for repeats for students a few months later? Is it fair that to repeat students have to do the following year?

3. Is the current system of viewing papers marked and appealing results fair enough?

4. Just to throw in is the current points system fair enough and how would you improve it

any thoughts?

In full agreewnce on point number 2

wonderfulname

Hmm.. I'll trust you!

I have to say from what I've seen of continuous assessment in colleges it doesn't appear to be the right call for leaving cert, the type of people who truly stress over points are the same people who stress twice a year over college assessments because they're goal orientated and they're thinking about that 1:1 from pretty early on, The crammers in school are the crammers in college too so I don't think it would wind up much different.

Also you have to account for how people learn in college, different areas of subjects being split up, while this would be good in English (say exam in Shakespeare in first term poetry in second so on so forth) It would be hell in a subject like maths where your looking at cumulative learning, for example algebra covers all disciplines, so does revising it in parallel with say complex numbers aid your understanding? If you find yourself studying maths at third level chances are this kind of thing wouldn't make a difference but at second level there is no choice so it could be a handicap for weaker students.

Then theres when you get to third level, take the English example, I had studied Shakespeare in my first term of fifth year, suddenly I find myself in a drama module, will I still have that basic understanding to build from? Or will the short period of study mean I may as well not have done it at all?

If the workload per exam decreases will the standard increase? What happens then? Harder exams? Tougher marking schemes?

What will the effect of an E in term one be on a fifth year? What if they fail their repeats? Will they drop out of school like so many drop out of college?

Fad

thomasj wrote: »

Is the most important exam of your life fair enough?

Drawing comparisons between the leaving cert and college

1. Is there too long a wait for results?
Does the long wait destroy the summer holidays for students?

2. Should there be a mechanism for repeats for students a few months later? Is it fair that to repeat students have to do the following year?

3. Is the current system of viewing papers marked and appealing results fair enough?

-Short wait kinda ruins your summer if you have summer repeats (UCD does not though).

-Repeating is expensive.......(Again in UCD anyway)

-In UCD you need a VERY good reason to appeal a paper, not just like the leaving - pay the fee & gimme marks plz

vicksterchick wrote: »

Continuous assessment FTW!

LOL

CA is the bane of my existence in college >_<

EuropeanSon

Yes. I like it.

thomasj

well how about having the exams over two years instead of one, have three or four in fifth year, three or four in sixth year

means more time to study each of the four subjects in school, rather than seven, less books to carry, homework etc.

wonderfulname

thomasj wrote: »

well how about having the exams over two years instead of one, have three or four in fifth year, three or four in sixth year

means more time to study each of the four subjects in school, rather than seven, less books to carry, homework etc.

To be honest I don't know what you'd do with yourself or how you'd keep busy with only 3-4 subjects a year, I know your going to say the doubling of workload but I'm I've done the course in a year this year and I really don't know if I could have handled the boredom or monotony of halving my subjects.

More time to study and less homework doesn't appeal, more time to study = serious boredom beyond what can humanly be deemed right considering you have even less of a variety to interest yourself in. Also having observed how my cousin enjoyed her GCSEs this year (they decided to get rid of the whole one big exam thing too, staging half of them around Christmas) I actually much prefer the big blowout and then over and done. Oh how disheartening to get half your leaving and then go straight back into school?

dunika

wonderfulname wrote: »

4. Just to throw in is the current points system fair enough and how would you improve it

In some ways yes in others no. The idea that only the better students get the available places is good. The inclusion of aptitude tests to all courses rather than just medicine would be a vast improvement though, as your points do not necessarily measure your ability in a certain area.


Also to the above, you can see your practical grades if you chose to view your scripts.

This in my opinion is such codswallop ther are people who get their courses in college and dont even bother to turn up for their lectures... this is not fair, their should be a change in the leaving cert for people who really need the course and want it soo bad should get it not how accademic you are in the leaving because some people dont do good in english irish french german spanish or whatever and math and this can lower your grade however the course you pick for college you obviously want therefore you will achieve better results in it!!! that is why the english system with interviews is much better because they know the people they offer the course too wants it and many people go to their lectures and very little drop out over!!:D:D:D

Cipango

English UCAS is great, I've applied to my course, got accepted with a list of requirements for my leaving cert, A in this subject, B2 in that and 2 C2's! Simple! Nothing like the leaving cert where you must do well across the board! You only need to do well in the subjects that you will need!

FewToLose

1. Is there too long a wait for results?
Does the long wait destroy the summer holidays for students?

I wouldn't say it destroys the holidays but they definitely should be available much sooner.

2. Should there be a mechanism for repeats for students a few months later? Is it fair that to repeat students have to do the following year?

Dreadfully unfair; should be able to repeat around August

3. Is the current system of viewing papers marked and appealing results fair enough?

I think the marking is fine but appeal results should be available within a few days of the appeal. A friend of mine had to defer her course for a whole year because she was five points short and she had missed too much by the time the appeal results had come out

4. Just to throw in is the current points system fair enough and how would you improve it

Dreadfully unfair; I would have no compulsory subjects; instead 3 or 4 of your choice, a broader range of subjects and more continous assessment wit perhaps one or two small exams at the start. And less of the book-learning too, like the British A-levels it should involve a degree of criticism as prep for university

FewToLose

wonderfulname wrote: »

To be honest I don't know what you'd do with yourself or how you'd keep busy with only 3-4 subjects a year, I know your going to say the doubling of workload but I'm I've done the course in a year this year and I really don't know if I could have handled the boredom or monotony of halving my subjects.

More time to study and less homework doesn't appeal, more time to study = serious boredom beyond what can humanly be deemed right considering you have even less of a variety to interest yourself in. Also having observed how my cousin enjoyed her GCSEs this year (they decided to get rid of the whole one big exam thing too, staging half of them around Christmas) I actually much prefer the big blowout and then over and done. Oh how disheartening to get half your leaving and then go straight back into school?

You could be kept busy if the subjects were taught in the in-depth and critical way as the British a-levels are. Leaving certificate students in my opinion (as a 2nd year university student) are wholly unprepared for university (verses an english classmate who did critical thinking as part of his a-levels and knew what it was all about and could easily criticise and question before coming to uni, unlike the Irish people in our class)

BrenosBolts91

The fair thing about the Leaving is that you get out of it what you put into it and thats that.For example Boland didnt come up and you were screwed then too bad thats what you get for putting all your eggs into one basket.

ride-the-spiral

Critical Thinking should definitely be incorporated as a subject, would be much more beneficial than Religion, SPHE, CSPE, Careers and alot of 4th year subjects.

pn7xjrqy6fhta1

I think that it can be very difficult for some and not for others. This depends on the layout of the Leaving. For me I had three days where I had two exams. This was very difficult for me trying to study 2 subjects the night before. My final exam, Accounting, is on Monday and is the only day I have 1 exam. For this I have had 3 full days to study which is great!! One of my friends had a perfect timtable. He had all his exams on seperate days bar one. He said it made a massive difference for him.

lc2010

Perhaps there are very strong arguments for CA but to be honest I prefer to just cram cram cram and get it done!!

I don't however agree with reducing the no of subjects to be studied as a broad range of subjects gives you a broad range of possible degrees. If they cut it down to 3 or 4 subjects then there is more pressure on third years to make up their mind about possible career choices which would be far too young imho.

sarahisdeadly

I think it's pretty fair, for me anyhow.

I work well under pressure, for me continuous assesment would be a nightmare.

The leaving cert doesn't suit everyone, but to be honest nothing does.

dunika

Cipango wrote: »

English UCAS is great, I've applied to my course, got accepted with a list of requirements for my leaving cert, A in this subject, B2 in that and 2 C2's! Simple! Nothing like the leaving cert where you must do well across the board! You only need to do well in the subjects that you will need!

i know its very fair i did the same as you and was only asked for like three subjects and to get points and i wasnt asked for an interview i got on well just by my personal statement so i was delighted although im defering it for a year to mature up more and then move over next year as i applied to london and its very expensive so im going to look for college in manchester

dunika

very true!! in relation to
"The fair thing about the Leaving is that you get out of it what you put into it and thats that.For example Boland didnt come up and you were screwed then too bad thats what you get for putting all your eggs into one basket. "

Cipango

dunika wrote: »

im going to look for college in manchester

Really? Me too ha! What course?

NufcNavan

The Leaving Cert is a terrible system.

It is basically a memory test, that is designed for cramming. Smarter people can adapt much better and do much better than 'average' students who work continuously hard all year. Fair? No it is not.