Tiling Questions

Buford T Justice

Hi.

I'm doing a job in a house next week in a bathroom and wanted know the following if you can help.

Adhesive.. Is the best to use Flex white adhesive? Its light tiles on a plasterboard wall and a timber floor

Grout. What sort of grout should i use. Anit-fungal Flex? (white for walls and grey for floors)

Floor Spacers. Are they generally 6mm, or what would be ideal in a bathroom 1.8 * 1.95 Meters.

Floor. The floor itself is timber floorboards tiled over. I'm thinking that I should lift these and replace it with Marine ply for rigidity and to stop flexing between the boards. What thickness should I use 12mm? or will the existing floor be ok, as one or two of the existing tiles are cracked.

Any help greatly appreciated

P.S. Thanks for the help so far Joey.....

AckwelFoley

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Hi.

I'm doing a job in a house next week in a bathroom and wanted know the following if you can help.

Adhesive.. Is the best to use Flex white adhesive? Its light tiles on a plasterboard wall and a timber floor

You need different adhesive on the walls than the floors. When you mean light do you mean light weight? If they are The pre mixed tile adhesive in a bucket is fine for the walls, be sure to prime and make sure its shower proof.

The floor adhesive you need is flexi grey in a bag. some bags depending on who makes requires to be mixed with a flexabliser others just add water, but it must be flexi.

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Hi.

Grout. What sort of grout should i use. Anit-fungal Flex? (white for walls and grey for floors)

yea, if you can get it but more importantly, flexi for floor and ceiling

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Hi.

Floor. The floor itself is timber floorboards tiled over. I'm thinking that I should lift these and replace it with Marine ply for rigidity and to stop flexing between the boards. What thickness should I use 12mm? or will the existing floor be ok, as one or two of the existing tiles are cracked.

12mm is a little thick perhaps, you should be fine with 6 mm, again depends on size of the tile, smaller floor tiles you certanly would need ply, bigger tiles, if the boards are sound and firm, you could tile directly onto the boards

Make sure you dont grout the corners of the wall, use a silicone, the movement between the walls will crack the grout.

Buford T Justice

snyper wrote: »

You need different adhesive on the walls than the floors. When you mean light do you mean light weight? If they are The pre mixed tile adhesive in a bucket is fine for the walls, be sure to prime and make sure its shower proof.

The floor adhesive you need is flexi grey in a bag. some bags depending on who makes requires to be mixed with a flexabliser others just add water, but it must be flexi.

Damn grammar. I meant light in the sense of light in color - sort of off white.
They're not lightweight tiles no, they're the bog standard ones - nothing special about them. When I'm asking for adhesive, do I say that I want a flexible adhesive for walls and a grey one for floors? (just want to be sure)

In regards the spacers between tiles, what would be the most commonly used for floors and walls?

Thanks

AckwelFoley

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Damn grammar. I meant light in the sense of light in color - sort of off white.
They're not lightweight tiles no, they're the bog standard ones - nothing special about them. When I'm asking for adhesive, do I say that I want a flexible adhesive for walls and a grey one for floors? (just want to be sure)

In regards the spacers between tiles, what would be the most commonly used for floors and walls?

Thanks

If they were porcealin.. you'd need white for the floor because the grey will soak through them apparently, however any floor tile adhesice ive ever used is grey, be it rapis set, or fast set or the flexi version of either..

Personally, the size of the joint depends on 2 things.. If your are working with **** walls a wider joint is easier to work with if you were out by 1 mm in one tile its not as noticible..
But generally, i if the edges of the tiles are bevelled i use a wider joint, if its a very square edge i use a narrower joint.. as i think it looks better

Joey the lips

I'm doing a job in a house next week in a bathroom and wanted know the following if you can help.

Adhesive.. Is the best to use Flex white adhesive? Its light tiles on a plasterboard wall and a timber floor

As advised really depends on the tiles but if you want to be safe. Flex white all the way. Even in shower area. Larsen do a brilliant one in an orange bag with a blue strip.

Grout. What sort of grout should i use. Anit-fungal Flex? (white for walls and grey for floors)

No matter what anyone tells you. White for walls grey for floors. Thats my personel opinion as well. If you use an anti fungal it will have to have a min 3mm tile spacer. I dont know why but this is the rules with anti fungal.

Floor Spacers. Are they generally 6mm, or what would be ideal in a bathroom 1.8 * 1.95 Meters.

My thoughts on spacers...The smaller the better, In this case 3mm

Floor. The floor itself is timber floorboards tiled over. I'm thinking that I should lift these and replace it with Marine ply for rigidity and to stop flexing between the boards. What thickness should I use 12mm? or will the existing floor be ok, as one or two of the existing tiles are cracked.

12mm ply screwed every 2-3 inches. Yes thats a lot of screws. Screws cannot be greater than 20mm as they will go through the floor underneath and may burst a pipe. Brass screws are best. zinc coated second. although personally I would use nothing but brass.

Any help greatly appreciated

P.S. Thanks for the help so far Joey.... your welcome.

Buford T Justice

Thanks for all the help guys - I appreciate it.

dunsandin

12mm is too thin, 18mm is better, closely screwed to the boards, its more rigid and will hold the tile better, especially if the tiles are large, use bagged flex adhesive, no need for latex additive on 18mm. No need for spacers on the floor, lay them to a snapped chalk line. Good quality bucket or better still, bagged wall addy, colour doesnt matter if you're neat, as the grout should completely obscure the addy. For speed, set out a batten 3/4 of a tile from the floor plumb all around the walls, and you can then fire the walls on using just matches or plastic peg spacers to keep the vertical spacings. Eye the vertical spacings. Use a laser or a chalk line/level and pencil to get the verticals. If its foil backed slabs, or better still, cement backer board, no need to prime, use w.proof addy and ensure full coverage using the flat side of the trowel first, then ridge using the serrated side-with bucket, you want to use the smallest size ridges you can, 3mm is fine. Thicker ridges will leave the addy too thick, and hence weak. Back butter the tiles in the wetted area of the shower to ensure a good, waterproof bond, but ideally you should use a proprietary membrane like Kerdi on all the wet areas, between the tile and the slab. Work neatly, use the smallest sized grout lines and a waterproof grout and the jobs a goodun!

Joey the lips

dunsandin wrote: »

12mm is too thin, 18mm is better, closely screwed to the boards, its more rigid and will hold the tile better, especially if the tiles are large, use bagged flex adhesive, no need for latex additive on 18mm. No need for spacers on the floor, lay them to a snapped chalk line. Good quality bucket or better still, bagged wall addy, colour doesnt matter if you're neat, as the grout should completely obscure the addy. For speed, set out a batten 3/4 of a tile from the floor plumb all around the walls, and you can then fire the walls on using just matches or plastic peg spacers to keep the vertical spacings. Eye the vertical spacings. Use a laser or a chalk line/level and pencil to get the verticals. If its foil backed slabs, or better still, cement backer board, no need to prime, use w.proof addy and ensure full coverage using the flat side of the trowel first, then ridge using the serrated side-with bucket, you want to use the smallest size ridges you can, 3mm is fine. Thicker ridges will leave the addy too thick, and hence weak. Back butter the tiles in the wetted area of the shower to ensure a good, waterproof bond, but ideally you should use a proprietary membrane like Kerdi on all the wet areas, between the tile and the slab. Work neatly, use the smallest sized grout lines and a waterproof grout and the jobs a goodun!

Each to there own and I am not interfereing here but the problem with 18mm ply is that it raises the floor up so much that the toilet and basin do not go back in without waste pipe and soil pipe adjustment.

But then again... this can equally happen with 12mm but is far less likely.

Buford T Justice

Joey the lips wrote: »

Each to there own and I am not interfereing here but the problem with 18mm ply is that it raises the floor up so much that the toilet and basin do not go back in without waste pipe and soil pipe adjustment.

But then again... this can equally happen with 12mm but is far less likely.

There's a new suite going in, but then again i don't want to run into problems with the door clashing with the floor if it gets too high, it'll be a pain to plane down. I think I may go with 10 or 12 mil fixed down over the existing floorboards once the existing tiles are ripped up

dunsandin

Its true, the 18mm raises the floor level too much when laid over existing boards, but I've found out the hard way that 10 or 12mm can give major hassles with movement if you are using large format tiles-it transmits too much of the floorboards natural movement. If I was doing it in my own home, I would take up the floorboards and lay down 1" marine ply with an overlay of Ditra matting. If you're using smaller or very tough floor tiles, you can go with 12mm ply. If its a natural stone or large, thin tiles, the 12mm can give bother with cracking, and it still creates a fair step when you combine the height of the ply and the tile/adhesive. Your basically laying a thin crispy, rigid layer over a non rigid substrate-any movement can lead to cracking.Flexi wastes and offset multi-wicks overcome the difference in heights anyway.

Joey the lips

dunsandin wrote: »

Its true, the 18mm raises the floor level too much when laid over existing boards, but I've found out the hard way that 10 or 12mm can give major hassles with movement if you are using large format tiles-it transmits too much of the floorboards natural movement. If I was doing it in my own home, I would take up the floorboards and lay down 1" marine ply with an overlay of Ditra matting. If you're using smaller or very tough floor tiles, you can go with 12mm ply. If its a natural stone or large, thin tiles, the 12mm can give bother with cracking, and it still creates a fair step when you combine the height of the ply and the tile/adhesive. Your basically laying a thin crispy, rigid layer over a non rigid substrate-any movement can lead to cracking.Flexi wastes and offset multi-wicks overcome the difference in heights anyway.

If you lay 12mm and screw it every 2-3" you will not get an ounce of trouble. Have been doing it years. My own home is timber frame which experiences the most movement and have it done this way. The ply does not matter... How it;s screwed matters. there is nothing thin and chrispy in my house and its porc layed

But again...each to there own..

dunsandin

Joey the lips wrote: »

If you lay 12mm and screw it every 2-3" you will not get an ounce of trouble. Have been doing it years. My own home is timber frame which experiences the most movement and have it done this way. The ply does not matter... How it;s screwed matters. there is nothing thin and chrispy in my house and its porc layed

But again...each to there own..

Thats what I meant Joey, porc tiles are very tough and will not easily crack, but if a H.O goes to B&Q and buys poor quality thin ceramic floor tiles they will transmit movement more and thats when you get cracks. The same applies to thinner natural tiles such as travertine-they need a good base much more than do porcelain. Anyway, its no big deal, but do you not find that screwing every 2-3" can be a hell of a job in a bigger room?

Joey the lips

dunsandin wrote: »

Thats what I meant Joey, porc tiles are very tough and will not easily crack, but if a H.O goes to B&Q and buys poor quality thin ceramic floor tiles they will transmit movement more and thats when you get cracks. The same applies to thinner natural tiles such as travertine-they need a good base much more than do porcelain. Anyway, its no big deal, but do you not find that screwing every 2-3" can be a hell of a job in a bigger room?

Every 2 -3" regardless of the size of the room....

knighted_1

Joey the lips wrote: »

If you lay 12mm and screw it every 2-3" you will not get an ounce of trouble. Have been doing it years. My own home is timber frame which experiences the most movement and have it done this way. The ply does not matter... How it;s screwed matters. there is nothing thin and chrispy in my house and its porc layed

But again...each to there own..

thats the cowboy way to do things - you should be lifting the existing floorboards and puting down ply -screwing it to the joists every two to three inchs -
problem is the span from one joist to the other is can be up to 14 inches so the ply has to span the gap with no screwing ,thats why you should use 18mm - any good tiler or bathroom specialist will tell you the same -if you going to do it do it right

the thicker the ply the more rigid the floor will be ,but dont lay over old floorboards if it not your house, you never know when its going to come back and bite you on the ass

dunsandin

Thats what I do, 18mm, more often than not 25mm and we fit a lot of extra noggins between the joists to take out the sag from the span. Have never actually run ply over existing boards. But we dont screw every 2-3", more like every 5"-6" and never had an issue. You can tell by walking on the board once its screwed - if it creaks and moves, its not right - if we didn't screw as much as it needed, we run along the joists with a nail gun and ring shank nails and that usually firms things up nicely. Wouldn't like to be the guy who has to remove it, but on any job we have re-visited to extend or change, we have found that the work we did is a b1tch to remove as its belt and braces - a lot of others stuff goes with a good kick.

Joey the lips

knighted_1 wrote: »

thats the cowboy way to do things - you should be lifting the existing floorboards and puting down ply -screwing it to the joists every two to three inchs -
problem is the span from one joist to the other is can be up to 14 inches so the ply has to span the gap with no screwing ,thats why you should use 18mm - any good tiler or bathroom specialist will tell you the same -if you going to do it do it right

the thicker the ply the more rigid the floor will be ,but dont lay over old floorboards if it not your house, you never know when its going to come back and bite you on the ass

Nothing cowboy about it at all as thousends of tilers will attest to. But your free to disrepute it but please do not show poor insight and call it cowboy.

knighted_1

i stand over what i say about it being a cowboy job if you dont lift the floorboards -you will have no idea what condition the joists underneath are in ,and after all it is a bathroom ,the wettest room in the house ,its your one chance to rectify problems if any exist ,before you do a permanent tile over ,its common sense joey and best practise -

another problem of leaving the floorboards down and screwing ply to them is you can only guess what is under them ,stud and cable finders are not going to give you the full picture and if you screw a nail into pipework i could be months before this comes to light -best practise and common sense

finally the best money you will ever spend on a bathroom renovation is about 90 euro(retail) for tanking -no problems with leaks in the future

Buford T Justice

knighted_1 wrote: »

finally the best money you will ever spend on a bathroom renovation is about 90 euro(retail) for tanking -no problems with leaks in the future

By tanking do you mean sealing the whole corner before the tray goes in with one of those kits?

Surely Classi Seal or Aquastrap will do just as good a job for an enclosed shower

Joey the lips

knighted_1 wrote: »

i stand over what i say about it being a cowboy job if you dont lift the floorboards -you will have no idea what condition the joists underneath are in ,and after all it is a bathroom ,the wettest room in the house ,its your one chance to rectify problems if any exist ,before you do a permanent tile over ,its common sense joey and best practise -

another problem of leaving the floorboards down and screwing ply to them is you can only guess what is under them ,stud and cable finders are not going to give you the full picture and if you screw a nail into pipework i could be months before this comes to light -best practise and common sense

finally the best money you will ever spend on a bathroom renovation is about 90 euro(retail) for tanking -no problems with leaks in the future

I highlight this bit because I actually delt with it in the screw size so you just prove you dont read what i write.

As for tanking your not explaining it too well and that price is to the trade not joe public. Presuming your discussing the EVO one.

Your free to call my work cowboy I wont be commenting on it needless to say I am free to point out your wrong

knighted_1

90 euro retail in tj omahoneys

pm me if you want to know where to get it 48 plus vat trade ,(roughly one third off ) but you must show or prove your vat number as in open an account so maybe thats why you cant get it at that price

if you buy in a crappy tile store expect to pay up tp 150

GreeBo

knighted_1 wrote: »

thats the cowboy way to do things - you should be lifting the existing floorboards and puting down ply -screwing it to the joists every two to three inchs

That makes no sense.
If the 18mm ply is strong enough to not sag in the span, you wouldnt need to screw every 3"...
12m ply over existing, sound floorboards is fine.
Half the door saddle under the door and the higher floor is not an issue.

Tiles should be under the sink and toilet anyway, shower area should be tanked and corners sealed classi-seal or equiv to the tub/tray.

ctrl-alt-delete

GreeBo wrote: »

That makes no sense.
If the 18mm ply is strong enough to not sag in the span, you wouldnt need to screw every 3"...
12m ply over existing, sound floorboards is fine.
Half the door saddle under the door and the higher floor is not an issue.

Tiles should be under the sink and toilet anyway, shower area should be tanked and corners sealed classi-seal or equiv to the tub/tray.

I'd agree that using it over existing floorboards is fine, and silly to call it cowboy behaviour.

When screwing down the ply over exisitng floorboards, i personally would still ensure to screw every 3" or so, it is all about movement, it doesn't harm to ensure it is well screwed down to avoid the risk.

Flexible adhesive and grout can still only cope with so much movement.

---

As for grout, you can get any colour you like these days, i wouldn't limit it to just grey for floors and white for walls.

In terms of spacers i'd normally use 4mm on a floor, and 2 mm on a wall. Sometimes a certain tile might suit a bigger spacer.

GreeBo

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I'd agree that using it over existing floorboards is fine, and silly to call it cowboy behaviour.

When screwing down the ply over exisitng floorboards, i personally would still ensure to screw every 3" or so, it is all about movement, it doesn't harm to ensure it is well screwed down to avoid the risk.

Flexible adhesive and grout can still only cope with so much movement.

I totally agree with this, Im not knocking the practice of screwing every 3", just dont see the point in screwing every 3" while you also have a 400mm gap for the board to sag in.
12mm on top of 19mm floor boards (screwed every 3") is logically stronger than 18mm screwed every 3" to the joists with a continuous 12" gap in the other direction. Unless you are off your noggin and going to put noggins in every 3" also?

Joey the lips

GreeBo wrote: »

I totally agree with this, Im not knocking the practice of screwing every 3", just dont see the point in screwing every 3" while you also have a 400mm gap for the board to sag in.
12mm on top of 19mm floor boards (screwed every 3") is logically stronger than 18mm screwed every 3" to the joists with a continuous 12" gap in the other direction. Unless you are off your noggin and going to put noggins in every 3" also?

Its stronger and is known as a floating floor which means generally it can act independly of some house movement. This has been missed but i am not here to constantly correct so am avoiding these rows.

Obviously if a floor is damaged by water or rot underneath will have to be checked. This is undenyable.. but as I said at the start.. 12mm ply with 20mm brass screws will come no where near pipe work even that which has been carelessly fitted by cowboys to close to the surface.

Buford T Justice

Ok, so here's how it went.

Ripped up tiles from floor, although they didn't need much persuasion. Lifted some of the floorboards as I had to do some jiggling and moving with the water and waste. Went with 12mm marine screwed every 2 - 3 inches with 30 mil screws. Primed the floor with PVA before any tiles went down


Now, I was given fast set flexi adhesive (grey) for the floor. After tiling some of the walls I mixed up the adhesive in the same fashion, and went about my business. I laid about 1 meter square of adhesive and laid the tiles down. Needed to trim one, so I did that and laid it. However, when I turned around the mix had almost completely gone off and was near solid. I knew it was fast set, but not superdeduper fast set!

Is my technique wrong?

I ended up then cutting all the edge tiles and making sure they all fit, then mixing up another batch of adhesive, putting it down, and then putting the tiles on in one fail swoop. Can anyone tell me if I did something wrong, or if its my technique?

The walls went ok, no crisis with that and the grouting was pretty straight forward

Looks like I've another job lined up in another bathroom next week, but its downstairs and all concrete floors and walls. Once i rip off the tiles, do the walls need to be painted with PVA again or could I just belt ahead?

Joey the lips

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Ok, so here's how it went.

Ripped up tiles from floor, although they didn't need much persuasion. Lifted some of the floorboards as I had to do some jiggling and moving with the water and waste. Went with 12mm marine screwed every 2 - 3 inches with 30 mil screws. Primed the floor with PVA before any tiles went down


Now, I was given fast set flexi adhesive (grey) for the floor. After tiling some of the walls I mixed up the adhesive in the same fashion, and went about my business. I laid about 1 meter square of adhesive and laid the tiles down. Needed to trim one, so I did that and laid it. However, when I turned around the mix had almost completely gone off and was near solid. I knew it was fast set, but not superdeduper fast set!

Is my technique wrong?

I ended up then cutting all the edge tiles and making sure they all fit, then mixing up another batch of adhesive, putting it down, and then putting the tiles on in one fail swoop. Can anyone tell me if I did something wrong, or if its my technique?

The walls went ok, no crisis with that and the grouting was pretty straight forward

Looks like I've another job lined up in another bathroom next week, but its downstairs and all concrete floors and walls. Once i rip off the tiles, do the walls need to be painted with PVA again or could I just belt ahead?

Not that i can see but time will tell.

As regards next week always prime the walls.

ctrl-alt-delete

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Now, I was given fast set flexi adhesive (grey) for the floor. After tiling some of the walls I mixed up the adhesive in the same fashion, and went about my business. I laid about 1 meter square of adhesive and laid the tiles down. Needed to trim one, so I did that and laid it. However, when I turned around the mix had almost completely gone off and was near solid. I knew it was fast set, but not superdeduper fast set!

Is my technique wrong?

For a floor, i would always dry lay the floor and do all the cuts first. Use plenty of spacers where the tiles meet to keep your tiles in line and hold the shape. If you have any of what i like to call L shaped cuts, don't put these down dry as you walk about - they tend to break if you step on them. Doing it this way will ensure you have the whole floor down dry and you will not waste any adhesive.*

*i'm not saying it is the correct way, it is the way that works best for me.

Did you have to hand mix the adhesive for the walls? If you did i'd stay away from that stuff in future. Get the ready mixed stuff in the buckets (not the stuff that comes saying it is adhesive and grout), this will not go off on you in the bucket and you can take your time doing the walls - obviously you cannot dry lay a wall. Then you will also have a couple of buckets for grouting when you are done laying.

Buford T Justice

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

For a floor, i would always dry lay the floor and do all the cuts first. Use plenty of spacers where the tiles meet to keep your tiles in line and hold the shape. If you have any of what i like to call L shaped cuts, don't put these down dry as you walk about - they tend to break if you step on them. Doing it this way will ensure you have the whole floor down dry and you will not waste any adhesive.*

*i'm not saying it is the correct way, it is the way that works best for me.

Did you have to hand mix the adhesive for the walls? If you did i'd stay away from that stuff in future. Get the ready mixed stuff in the buckets (not the stuff that comes saying it is adhesive and grout), this will not go off on you in the bucket and you can take your time doing the walls - obviously you cannot dry lay a wall. Then you will also have a couple of buckets for grouting when you are done laying.

Yeah, I had to mix the wall adhesive too, and it was a flex one too. I didn't have any issues with it as it was the standard set adhesive, the foor stuff was rapid set. Thanks for the hints about laying out though.. I think I'll be using that method in future.

Joey, what did you mean by time will tell?

Joey the lips

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Yeah, I had to mix the wall adhesive too, and it was a flex one too. I didn't have any issues with it as it was the standard set adhesive, the foor stuff was rapid set. Thanks for the hints about laying out though.. I think I'll be using that method in future.

Joey, what did you mean by time will tell?

As the floor dries out if you have any problems with the mix the tiles will come loose or hollows will apear.

Dont worry it all sounds good. So you should be fine.

Buford T Justice

Joey the lips wrote: »

As the floor dries out if you have any problems with the mix the tiles will come loose or hollows will apear.

Dont worry it all sounds good. So you should be fine.

Ta

If it happens it should just be a case of re-seating the tiles again with more adhesive?

Joey the lips

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Ta

If it happens it should just be a case of re-seating the tiles again with more adhesive?

Not quite that easy. Experience has shown me that not the whole tile comes loose at first. What usually happens is one end comes loose. The tile moves. The gout cracks and falls away, water gets under and due to viscosity i suppose travels to multiple tiles so slowly all the tiles get wet under and come loose.

This has been my experience .