Civil Liberties,who to vote for?

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

A brain of one gender trapped in the body of another would strike me as leaving one with as little choice as to constitute none at all.

but the sex listed on a birth cert is based on the body and genetics 'at birth' rather than being a prediction of future brain development and identity

Memnoch

Overheal wrote: »

I've re-read the entire thread under the emphasis of Bigotry and found not one example, either.

I don't think anybody is being intolerant here () just stating that trying to alter your birth certificate to say you were born a woman etc. after a gender change is dishonest.

I think it is intolerant.

A birth cert is required for many formal applications and can have a huge impact on a person's life. (Eg. someone applying for citizenship has to provide a birth cert.) If someone's birth cert. says "male" and they have had their gender changed to reflect what they feel this will and does lead to raised eyebrows, discomfiture and discrimination both direct and indirect.

While, ideally we should be working towards changing the attitude of society, the practical and HUMANE solution is to simply allow the change of gender on the birth cert to avoid unnecessary and unfair treatment.

I don't think the real issue with those who object is honesty or dishonesty. Those who are getting hung up on semantics are, in my view, doing so simply as a veil to cover their intolerance, because they know, full well, the real world implications of the issue for the person affected. And they also know that should they voice their protest as such, they would be seen for the intolerant person they really are.

wonderfulname

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

These people have testes and an XY chromosome pair. So according to the dictionary they are defined as male.

Just for everybody running to their old oxford dictionary, the modern medical definition in laymans terms can be found here.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

but the sex listed on a birth cert is based on the body and genetics 'at birth' rather than being a prediction of future brain development and identity

They don't do in-depth testing of brain chemistry at birth. The "future development" in this case is a direct consequence of the brains state at birth. Therefore, given the absence of full information at the time of signing the cert, such a declaration should not be carved in stone.

Eliot Rosewater

The problem is that the birth cert is interpreted as being a true reflection of the characteristics of someone now. When one applies for a passport one uses one's birth cert as evidence relating to one's state now.

You can be idealistic saying the birth cert represents a person at the time of birth, but in reality they are taken to represent the person today.

So unless another cert is brought in to replace the uses of the birth cert, I think we should deal with this reality and allow them to be amended.

PeakOutput

my personal opinion having not read this entire thread but seeing a link to it from ah is as follows

anyone should be able to marry anyone they want in any public place and have the same legal rights as anyone else who is married

any person or couple should be able to adopt a child if they are deemed to be good aprental material and weather or not htey are both male or both female or a single male or single female should not make a difference

the above applies to transgendered people aswell HOWEVER i dont think they should be able to change their birth cert (a historical record) or be able to change anything historical. im undecided on how they should be legally allowed to fill out forms(ie which gender to tick) but my gut says they should have to tick the gender they were born as physically.

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

They don't do in-depth testing of brain chemistry at birth. The "future development" in this case is a direct consequence of the brains state at birth. Therefore, given the absence of full information at the time of signing the cert, such a declaration should not be carved in stone.

The brain at any stage, underpinned by biology, determines gender. Genetics and physiology determines sex. Gender and sex are not synonymous.

And Memnoch, as for this being a protest of intolerance, I'd sooner argue for the removal of requirement to officially reveal your sex or gender or orientation when applying for almost anything than argue for the revisionist doctoring of genetic facts. I'd prefer if you made an argument rather than second guessed peoples motivations

PeakOutput

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

So unless another cert is brought in to replace the uses of the birth cert, I think we should deal with this reality and allow them to be amended.

i completely think that transgendered should be able to have whatever operations they wish to make themselves be happy with themselves but i dont think that it actually changes their sex and therefore im not convinced they should be allowed have a passport that says female if they were born male and vice versa.

i also think that it shouldnt be impossible for people to find out that a person has had a sex change if they really want to ie if your thinking about getting into a relationship with someone, its not going to be foremost on your mind obviously but lets say something has happened to make you suspicious i think you have a right to know if your partner or potential partner was born a man or a woman and i think changing birth certs and passports makes that too difficult

Laminations

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The problem is that the birth cert is interpreted as being a true reflection of the characteristics of someone now. When one applies for a passport one uses one's birth cert as evidence relating to one's state now.

You can be idealistic saying the birth cert represents a person at the time of birth, but in reality they are taken to represent the person today.

So unless another cert is brought in to replace the uses of the birth cert, I think we should deal with this reality and allow them to be amended.

I've already suggested a 'change of circumstance' cert which allows one to alter sex on official documents so one is not anchored to the transient state they were in at birth for the rest of their lives. If you live as a woman but were born physiologically male then you should be allowed to alter sex on new documents, as sex is usually mistaken for gender anyway

Laminations

PeakOutput wrote: »

my personal opinion having not read this entire thread but seeing a link to it from ah is as follows

anyone should be able to marry anyone they want in any public place and have the same legal rights as anyone else who is married

any person or couple should be able to adopt a child if they are deemed to be good aprental material and weather or not htey are both male or both female or a single male or single female should not make a difference

the above applies to transgendered people aswell HOWEVER i dont think they should be able to change their birth cert (a historical record) or be able to change anything historical. im undecided on how they should be legally allowed to fill out forms(ie which gender to tick) but my gut says they should have to tick the gender they were born as physically.

Agreed on all points except the part about ticking gender on forms. Are you confusing gender and sex?

PeakOutput

Laminations wrote: »

Agreed on all points except the part about ticking gender on forms. Are you confusing gender and sex?

i saw how you define gender and sex i just dont agree

is there any scientific proof to show that a transgendered person who is born with a male body has anything other than a male brain? is there any physical difference in their brain that makes it a female brain?

i dont know the science but im guessing that just like homosexuals their brains are exactly the same as everyone elses of their natural born sex

wonderfulname

PeakOutput wrote: »

i also think that it shouldnt be impossible for people to find out that a person has had a sex change if they really want to ie if your thinking about getting into a relationship with someone, its not going to be foremost on your mind obviously but lets say something has happened to make you suspicious i think you have a right to know if your partner or potential partner was born a man or a woman and i think changing birth certs and passports makes that too difficult

That is a question of morals not of rights, a person has a right to be recognized for who they are but a moral obligation to inform partners of any massive events in their history, having a child, being married, criminal record etc.

PeakOutput wrote: »

i completely think that transgendered should be able to have whatever operations they wish to make themselves be happy with themselves but i dont think that it actually changes their sex and therefore im not convinced they should be allowed have a passport that says female if they were born male and vice versa.

Do you really think they will be happy with themselves if they have to tell every tom dick and harry who needs to see ID their past?

wonderfulname

PeakOutput wrote: »

is there any scientific proof to show that a transgendered person who is born with a male body has anything other than a male brain?

Yes, I'm just waiting for the barrage of links your hopefully going to get

I'd advise you to get a little basic knowledge on a subject before you debate it.

philologos

I'm not 100% sure about this. Isn't a birth certificate meant to describe a birth, rather than what people have done in their lives since that birth?

A separate document would have been a better way to go about this, that this person wishes to be recognised by this name, and by this identity. Or does the change only mean that the information is updated while keeping the birth gender?

wonderfulname

ome recent findings have provided clues and possibly answers as to how or why some or most cases of transsexuality occur. In 1997, J.N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab conducted tests on the brains of transgender individuals. Their tests showed that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Their study was the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.[77] Perhaps confirming why this brain difference occurs, in 2008 at Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne, biological studies were performed to attempt to find a link between genes and transsexuality. Their study shows male to female transsexuals are more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. They say that it is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.[78]

Laminations

PeakOutput wrote: »

i saw how you define gender and sex i just dont agree

is there any scientific proof to show that a transgendered person who is born with a male body has anything other than a male brain? is there any physical difference in their brain that makes it a female brain?

i dont know the science but im guessing that just like homosexuals their brains are exactly the same as everyone elses of their natural born sex

Very quick answer. Do men and women think and act differently? Is there a difference between feminine and masculine behaviour? If you said yes to these then where do you think these differences arise other than the brain?
These is differences in terms of size, ventricular position, lateralisation, hypothalmic regulation, neurotransmitter levels, there are probably even differences in early synaptic pruning processes.

But having a female brain or 'thinking like a woman' does not make one biologically female

PeakOutput

wonderfulname wrote: »

Yes, I'm just waiting for the barrage of links your hopefully going to get

I'd advise you to get a little basic knowledge on a subject before you debate it.

id advise you to chill out i gave my opinion clearly expressed as my opinion im not debating anything and didnt state anything as fact i asked a question

That is a question of morals not of rights, a person has a right to be recognized for who they are but a moral obligation to inform partners of any massive events in their history, having a child, being married, criminal record etc.

a person has a right to not be tricked into a relationship under false pretenses too so how do we resolve this? something being a moral obligation can be easily ignored to the detriment of the person who thinks they are in a relationship with a man or woman when they arent.

i will completely respect a mans decision to change to a woman if they want, i will treat them exactly how they want to be treated to the best of my ability(iv never encountered a transgendered person as far as i know i can only hope that i treat them no differently but im sure id find it wierd at least initially and thats just being honest) but do i really believe they are now a woman? honestly, no.

PeakOutput

Laminations wrote: »

Very quick answer. Do men and women think and act differently? Is there a difference between feminine and masculine behaviour? If you said yes to these then where do you think these differences arise other than the brain?

of course but a man can have feminine characteristics in their personality and not want to be a woman. what about feminine gay men are their brains the same as transgender men? were does the line start and end?

But having a female brain or 'thinking like a woman' does not make one biologically female

maybe im taking that a different way to how you meant it but i agree with that sentence completely. so what makes you a man or a woman if its not how you act or how you think? i would say its a physical characterstic

Eliot Rosewater

PeakOutput wrote: »

a person has a right to not be tricked into a relationship under false pretenses too so how do we resolve this?

If you're going to run with the argument that the state should be protecting people from being "tricked" then there's a lot of side effects. If I cheat on my other half, but declare otherwise, should the state have a responsibility to tell her because she's being tricked?

I personally trust adults enough to conduct their personal affairs without having the state interfering.

In any case, I don't see how that particular aspect affects birth certs. A horny young man in a nightclub will be asking to see things beginning with a "b" alright, but certainly not birth certs!!

Laminations wrote: »

I've already suggested a 'change of circumstance' cert which allows one to alter sex on official documents so one is not anchored to the transient state they were in at birth for the rest of their lives.

That's fair enough. However would that result in a stigma occuring? Here's my *cough* change of status *cough* cert.

If those certs only had one function it'd be pretty obvious what had been "changed", and people may not be comfortable with that.

Laminations

PeakOutput wrote: »

of course but a man can have feminine characteristics in their personality and not want to be a woman. what about feminine gay men are their brains the same as transgender men? were does the line start and end?

there are no clear lines in terms of gender. there are clearer lines in sex. What makes me a man is my sex, what makes me feel like a man is my gender. Sex usually underpins gender so gender and sex usually overlap, people define themselves moreso by gender- how they feel they are. But this definition shouldn't interfere with a recorded sex on a birth cert.

maybe im taking that a different way to how you meant it but i agree with that sentence completely. so what makes you a man or a woman if its not how you act or how you think? i would say its a physical characterstic

no that's how I meant it. Sex is not subjective, gender is more personal and harder to determine biologically. The physical characteristic is the sex, the psychological (which obviously still has physical dimensions hence brain/hormone differences) is the gender

PeakOutput

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

If you're going to run with the argument that the state should be protecting people from being "tricked" then there's a lot of side effects. If I cheat on my other half, but declare otherwise, should the state have a responsibility to tell her because she's being tricked?

I personally trust adults enough to conduct their personal affairs without having the state interfering.

ye i agree with that too its a tough one and admitedly the case of someone being tricked would probably be so rare that it might be worth allowing so that the rest can live happy and fullfilled lives but again i dont actually believe they are females after the transformation so i have a hard time agreeing with them being able to tick female on a form.

maybe iv found one thing issue im ignorant and backward about

That's fair enough. However would that result in a stigma occuring? Here's my *cough* change of status *cough* cert.

If those certs only had one function it'd be pretty obvious what had been "changed", and people may not be comfortable with that.

i think the people involved would have to lump the stigma like homosexuals have to to an extent. the anti discrimination laws should apply obviously but there will always be people who will treat you differently and they will have to accept that so that they can integrate with the reasonable majority

Laminations

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

That's fair enough. However would that result in a stigma occuring? Here's my *cough* change of status *cough* cert.

If those certs only had one function it'd be pretty obvious what had been "changed", and people may not be comfortable with that.

the only person to know would be the civil servant in whatever official document office (passport, drivers licence etc) you were applying. Once you had said document it should look no different than anyone elses

philologos

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

That's fair enough. However would that result in a stigma occuring? Here's my *cough* change of status *cough* cert.

If those certs only had one function it'd be pretty obvious what had been "changed", and people may not be comfortable with that.

If it were used to clarify any change in life status including changing names it could be a more robust document.

wonderfulname

PeakOutput wrote: »

id advise you to chill out i gave my opinion clearly expressed as my opinion im not debating anything and didnt state anything as fact i asked a question

I am chilled out, the phrasing and tone of your question suggested it was not so innocent, and my advise still stands, I'm not one for forming opinions based on assumption.

PeakOutput wrote: »

a person has a right to not be tricked into a relationship under false pretenses too so how do we resolve this?

I wouldn't call it trickery tbh but my point still stands on this and its not an issue which should influence legislation.

PeakOutput wrote: »

i will completely respect a mans decision to change to a woman if they want, i will treat them exactly how they want to be treated to the best of my ability(iv never encountered a transgendered person as far as i know i can only hope that i treat them no differently but im sure id find it wierd at least initially and thats just being honest) but do i really believe they are now a woman? honestly, no.

Lol I'm not sure you'd notice any different we're not talking about a man in a wig here.


Just thinking, all i really wanted to know here was where the Labour manifesto is at, how did we go so far off topic??

Eliot Rosewater

Perhaps the best solution would be to give a birth certificate at birth, but any more copies of the certificate that are requested (due to certificate losses etc) would be instead titled "Person Cert" or something.

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont actually believe they are females after the transformation so i have a hard time agreeing with them being able to tick female on a form.

Once someone has female parts and identifies as a female, I don't see why not.

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

i saw how you define gender and sex i just dont agree

is there any scientific proof to show that a transgendered person who is born with a male body has anything other than a male brain? is there any physical difference in their brain that makes it a female brain?

Yes, it was posted earlier in the thread.

Iwasfrozen

wonderfulname wrote: »

That is a choice which comes after the fact. Identifying as the gender in the first place is not a choice.

Exactly.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

A brain of one gender trapped in the body of another would strike me as leaving one with as little choice as to constitute none at all.

How do you work that one out? They can decide wether or not to have the operation. That is a choice.

Iwasfrozen

Memnoch wrote: »

A birth cert is required for many formal applications and can have a huge impact on a person's life. (Eg. someone applying for citizenship has to provide a birth cert.) If someone's birth cert. says "male" and they have had their gender changed to reflect what they feel this will and does lead to raised eyebrows, discomfiture and discrimination both direct and indirect.

While, ideally we should be working towards changing the attitude of society, the practical and HUMANE solution is to simply allow the change of gender on the birth cert to avoid unnecessary and unfair treatment.

I don't think the real issue with those who object is honesty or dishonesty. Those who are getting hung up on semantics are, in my view, doing so simply as a veil to cover their intolerance, because they know, full well, the real world implications of the issue for the person affected. And they also know that should they voice their protest as such, they would be seen for the intolerant person they really are.

The birth certificate is a statement of fact at the time of the childs birth. In the case of a male to female transexual the data recorded on the certificate would be the data that was collected at the time of the certificates composition. To doctor it at a later date would be a doctoring of the facts, surely you can see such a thing is dishonest to say the least.

I think you are trowing caution to the wind here and playing the intolerance card which always seems to rear it's ugly head in these discussions. Especially by calling those with a differing view of you as intolerant and making out that we have some sinister plot to prevent Transexuals changing their birth certificates. That is not true and I will not allow you to paint myself or anyone agreeing with me as intolerant bigots.

Regardless in my view there is no need for Transexuals to doctor their birth certificates. So what if people raise their eyebrows, people raise their eyebrows at more or less anything these days. Transexuals should be happy in the knowledge that they are their chosen sex and comfortable in our uber p.c sexuality laws. To hell with other people.

wonderfulname

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How do you work that one out? They can decide wether or not to have the operation. That is a choice.

So... I have gay thoughts, but I'm only gay if I act on them? Thats much the same argument. Please tell me your not one of those I like to pretend they don't exist.

Iwasfrozen

wonderfulname wrote: »

So... I have gay thoughts, but I'm only gay if I act on them? Thats much the same argument. Please tell me your not one of those I like to pretend they don't exist.

If they decide to have gender reassignment surgery or hormonal therapy then that is a choice they have made. They have decided to have the procedure rather then not have the procedure. That is a choice they have made.

I'm not sure what the "one of those" you're referring to is. But no doubt you'll enlighten me.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The birth certificate is a statement of fact at the time of the childs birth. In the case of a male to female transexual the data recorded on the certificate would be the data that was collected at the time of the certificates composition.

They don't test the brain, do they?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How do you work that one out?

The seat of human conciousness indicates that it is of a 'female' orientation. The essence of the person is thus predicated towards a female role. How could a person not be compelled to change their outward form to more fittingly portray their actual nature.

Laminations

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How do you work that one out? They can decide wether or not to have the operation. That is a choice.

An operation doesn't determine someones gender, people get surgery or hormone treatment in an attempt to bring their sex (quite visible) in line with their gender. You and I feel like men for more reasons than the fact we pee standing up. But the fact we have a penis a pee standing up is down to biology and it's what makes us male (sex wise). Gender is most likely heavily determined by genetics too but 'gender' is not what is listed on birth certs.

A 'change of status' form covering a multitude of areas would be best, but I think except for birth cert, official documents should record gender rather than sex. It's a mix up of categorisation and a bias towards sex when gender is most likely more important for how people define themselves.

If you work in a factory doing inventory categorising bottles and jars. Bottles usually contain liquid and jars contain jam. How do you categorise a bottle with jam in it? Well obviously it's still a bottle but you begin to question whether it's more important to be categorising contents. I have no idea whether that's a good and clear analogy for sex vs gender but it made sense to me, though I am tired

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

They don't test the brain, do they?

Of course not.

Nodin wrote: »

The seat of human conciousness indicates that it is of a 'female' orientation. The essence of the person is thus predicated towards a female role. How could a person not be compelled to change their outward form to more fittingly portray their actual nature.

Eariler in this thread I linked the definition of male from dictionary.com. The first definition I found was this:

Dictionary.com wrote:

a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.

I then went on to state the following:

Iwasfrozen wrote:

Notice the definition of a male is a person bearing an X and Y chromosome and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles. Meaning that these attributes are not necessary to be classified as a male. Thus any baby that carries an X and Y chromosome pair at the time of their birth is a male. That is a fact and any attempt to doctor this would only be conveniently changing the truth.

From this we can conclude that yes the brain is the seat of human conciousness and yes the mind of a transexual baby boy may similar to the brain of a normal baby girl. But that brain is made up off brain cells and in the nucleus of each one of those cells lies an XY chromosome pair.

The presence of this XY chromosome pair and the external features of a male is all the doctor needs in order to classify the child as a male according to my dictionary.com definition.

Iwasfrozen

Laminations wrote: »

You and I feel like men for more reasons than the fact we pee standing up.

Speak for yourself.

Laminations wrote: »

Gender is most likely heavily determined by genetics too but 'gender' is not what is listed on birth certs.

Exactly. Sex is listed on the birth certificate. And the childs sex is based on the observations made by the doctor and his medical team.

Laminations wrote: »

A 'change of status' form covering a multitude of areas would be best, but I think accept for birth cert official documents should record gender rather than sex

I think such a thing would be silly. Especially since Transexuals can legally change their sex anyway.

Nodin

Life and the human being are rather more complicated than that, however.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Life and the human being are rather more complicated than that, however.

Determining the biological sex of a new born baby is not more complicated then that. Maybe when the child get older and begins to make choices for themselves then yes, it gets tricky. But the birth certificate is a statement of fact at the time of the childs birth.

aDeener

Links234 wrote: »

Sad to see some of the bigotry in this thread, but we're finally seeing a much needed basic human right for transgender people in Ireland, and this is just wonderful news!



That's just not true though, there are plenty of babies that carry XY chromosomes at birth but are documented as female.

ah throwing out that card i see.... :rolleyes:

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Determining the biological sex of a new born baby is not more complicated then that. Maybe when the child get older and begins to make choices for themselves then yes, it gets tricky. But the birth certificate is a statement of fact at the time of the childs birth.

As its not based on a complex analysis of the brain and its chemistry, its not taking into account all the facts, therefore it cannot be a statement of fact but the best assessment available at the time. Saying that such a thing cannot be revisited when new information becomes available strikes me as irrational.

philologos

Why is it essential that everyone regards gender in the same way as others do? If one wishes to change their appearance, that is up to you. Not everyone should be forced to applaud anothers decision though.

Isn't that not the more reasonable way to end this impasse?

Annasopra

wonderfulname wrote: »

Back on topic, having trouble finding Labours party manifesto, anyone have a link?

The LGBT section of Labours 2007 manifesto is as follows

http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/12.html
http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/thefairsociety_manifesto2007.pdf

Gay Rights
Labour's Civil Union Bill was defeated by the present government parties. In government, Labour will reintroduce and enact this legislation. The Bill will create a status relationship equivalent to marriage for the benefit of people who are of the same sex and who, under the current constitutional understanding of marriage, cannot marry each other. In most respects, the same rules that apply to marriage will apply to civil unions.

Partners in a civil union will have the same rights, privileges and benefits and be subject to the same obligations, penalties and other sanctions as those that apply to spouses in a marriage. They will also be responsible for the support of one another and for any dependent child to the same degree and in the same manner as married persons.

The Bill provides that parties to a civil union who are living together may apply to adopt a child. The Bill also states that all adoption decisions must be made in the best long-term interests of the child.

Our objective, in due course, is to bring about constitutional change to provide for full equality between heterosexual and homosexual couples. In addition, Labour will take a number of measures to improve the position and well-being of lesbian, gay and transgendered citizens in our society.

We will:

Put in place policies to tackle homophobic bullying in our second level education system.

Amend employment equality legislation to prohibit schools from discriminating against their employees on the grounds of sexual orientation or marital status.

Introduce a gender recognition act to provide transgendered people with the right to realise their gender identity.

Introduce a gay and lesbian strand to the National Anti-Poverty Strategy based on updated research on poverty issues among gay and lesbian people.

Provide for a lesbian and gay community-building framework within the Pobal Strategic Plan and amend the legislation governing Community Development
Projects to allow for non-locality based community projects

Appoint an official in the Department of Health to have responsibility for advising the Minister on LGBT health issues and for liaising with the LGBT community on same. We are committed to on-going funding of gay HIV strategies.

Create a national LGBT monitoring and advisory committee, under the aegis of a relevant government department

Annasopra

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The problem is that the birth cert is interpreted as being a true reflection of the characteristics of someone now. When one applies for a passport one uses one's birth cert as evidence relating to one's state now.

Passports and Driving Licences are already issues in the acquired gender