OUTRAGED AT PISTOL PHOTO'S

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Would NEVER post pictures of my guns on facebook for security reasons and I have my face book account completely locked down, only mates can see my page and pics. Some of my friends don't even know I have a gun :P

I shot my first rabbit when I was about 12 or 13, about the same time I learned how to drive

jill_valentine

sikastag wrote: »

. Firearms arent all that different to a golf club or tennis racket to me. (Not to joe public obviously). I do not view them as a WEAPON.

This is very much my problem with the idea that introducing kids to guns at an early age will teach them a healthy respect for firearm safety.

A gun is not like a golf club or a tennis racket. It's not like those things at all, and it should not be treated as such - a gun is a very potentially and instantly lethal piece of kit, and that should carry a healthy taboo with it because that's something that should be taken very seriously indeed.

I've worked with a lot of guns and a lot of people using them, and it's been my experience that the longer people are around them, the more complacent they tend to get about it. It doesn't matter how much they're drilled and trained and lectured, it's just a natural human response. The more you handle them, the more you start to view them as a tool just like any other, and that's something that should be consciously resisted.

You shouldn't ever be comfortable carrying a gun. It only takes the once for something to go badly wrong.

Tackleberrywho

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is very much my problem with the idea that introducing kids to guns at an early age will teach them a healthy respect for firearm safety.

A gun is not like a golf club or a tennis racket. It's not like those things at all, and it should not be treated as such - a gun is a very potentially and instantly lethal piece of kit, and that should carry a healthy taboo with it because that's something that should be taken very seriously indeed.

I've worked with a lot of guns and a lot of people using them, and it's been my experience that the longer people are around them, the more complacent they tend to get about it. It doesn't matter how much they're drilled and trained and lectured, it's just a natural human response. The more you handle them, the more you start to view them as a tool just like any other, and that's something that should be consciously resisted.

You shouldn't ever be comfortable carrying a gun. It only takes the once for something to go badly wrong.

I have to Disagree Jill, Hunters and shooters use them to shoot.

I'm guessing where your experience lies, and if I am correct the people you refer to rarely fire firearms.

There is quite a difference between competence and complacence.
Practice makes permenance, permenat practice makes perfect

Respect yes, fear no. If you are afraid of a firearm it is because you do not understanmd it fully.

jill_valentine

If I am correct the people you refer to rarely fire firearms.

We fired them very frequently indeed. That said, I also grew up with a couple of guns in the house, I'm familiar with them in a couple of contexts.

But it is something you see creep in, among people who'd never admit it and should know better. Trigger safety or carry angle, things like that shouldn't just be observed out of habit and muscle memory. You should be actively aware of where your trigger finger is and where your barrel is pointing, because the piece of machinery in question has the potential to do real damage to somebody if you aren't careful.

I don't think you should be trembling in your boots everytime you have one in your hands, and it's a good thing to be very familiar with it's workings - but you should never let yourself get relaxed about it.

And that does go for hunters too - even if somebody only ever uses a gun for shooting rabbits, it's still a gun, and it can still do damage if they get sloppy with it. I hate seeing people talk about their gun as if owning or using one comes with all the responsibility of an iPod or a mobile or something. I'm not saying that's happening here, but it's a particular bugbear of mine, it drives me bananas.

Most people will never see the worst happen, but they shouldn't ever forget that it can.

Tackleberrywho

jill_valentine wrote: »

We fired them very frequently indeed. That said, I also grew up with a couple of guns in the house, I'm familiar with them in a couple of contexts.

But it is something you see creep in, among people who'd never admit it and should know better. Trigger safety or carry angle, things like that shouldn't just be observed out of habit and muscle memory. You should be actively aware of where your trigger finger is and where your barrel is pointing, because the piece of machinery in question has the potential to do real damage to somebody if you aren't careful.

I don't think you should be trembling in your boots everytime you have one in your hands, and it's a good thing to be very familiar with it's workings - but you should never let yourself get relaxed about it.

And that does go for hunters too - even if somebody only ever uses a gun for shooting rabbits, it's still a gun, and it can still do damage if they get sloppy with it. I hate seeing people talk about their gun as if owning or using one comes with all the responsibility of an iPod or a mobile or something. I'm not saying that's happening here, but it's a particular bugbear of mine, it drives me bananas.

Most people will never see the worst happen, but they shouldn't ever forget that it can.

I do not think that most shooters hunters on here do not think what can go wrong.
A hunter sees first hjandf what a firearm can do.
I would even go as fas as to say Hunting makes one even more safety concious.
Military and LE have a much higher ACCEPTABLE accident rate than civilians have.

Trigger safety goes without saying, so too muzzle safety. All hunters/Shooters have this drilled into them.

One would be dismissed off a civie range before the could say oops for such an infringement.

Most guys and gals on here carry firearms in the fields.
It is through proper training , (albeit from parents or from courses) that people get confident with their firearm.

If one has gone to the effort of tuning a firearm to be a precesion piece of kit, one does not way it around the place like a cattle prod.

Most on here have done at the very min of 1 safety course.

I myself have done loads of them, and instructed on them.
One has to be confident in what one is doing not to make mistakes.

Lack of confidence breaths mistakes.
Every shooter has a routine of cleaning, stripping etc.
This never changes or varies it is a routine.

Teaching ones son to do it, I feel is not a bad thing.

My grandfather taught me about firearms when I was 10.(many years ago now)
I know much about them today as I was instilled with the confidence and education at an early age.

I have seen adults make more mistakes than children with firearms.
Children will, after all; LISTEN TO INSTRUCTION

Adults think they know it all after watching Ross kemp

Manic Moran

Well I just think that its a far better policy to train the child to stay away from guns rather than to be picking them up and handling them, whether supervised or not.

The NRA in the US has a program called "Eddie the Eagle", which basically is aimed at kids aged about 8 and below. Basically the curriculum consists of teaching the youngsters "If you see a gun, stop, don't touch, leave the room, tell an adult"

I'm not going to put a definitive age on the difference between 'Don't touch' and 'touch under my supervision.' I'll see how my progeny develop and make a judgement call on my own when I think they're ready. The best answer I've seen so far is to have the kid's own rifle (A .22LR, of course) which lives in the safe with Dad's. We'll go shooting it whenever they want, but until I feel they're ready, they won't go shooting it without my being right next to them. Takes the mystery and desire out of the equation, and just becomes a normal thing. Not, as Sparks put it, the "Holy Grail"

Like some of the others already posted, I believe that the Irish legally mandated age limits are over-cautious, to put it mildly. If you don't want to look at the US for examples (And face it, despite the occasional news of mis-use, the vast majority of the tens of millions of gun owners in the US have figured out gun ownership without trouble so I wouldn't go disregarding US experience in the matter). This Swiss picture is telling.



No adults within arms reach of the kids with the pistols, no parents freaking out, and the 'instructor' giving the guidance to the nearest shooter doesn't look to be in her teens herself.

Look at the years of birth of the winners of the Knabenschiessen of 2009, using the Swiss military service rifle, not some pansy little .22LR.
http://www.knabenschiessen.ch/htdocs/?m=rankings&action=view_single_rankings
The winner was 16. The fourth-place shooter was 13. This is a national, government-sponsored competition with huge publicity. Think about it, if you're going to be the 4th place shooter (Out of almost 5,000) under age 17 in the country with a military-grade rifle at age 13, at what age would you have started? Not 12.

Kids around the world, including demonstratably right next door, have shown a capability to use firearms without causing great trauma and outcry. That Ireland has isolated itself from this knowledge for the past four or five decades does not detract from the truth of it.

NTM

rrpc

ivanthehunter wrote: »

I think you wrong one that point rrpc
IIRC there are several exemptions as to when a firearms licence is not required by the individual holding the gun and this is one such instance.

IIRC the law allows someone other than the licensed holder of the firearm, to fetch the gun to them under the licence holder direct instruction... it also allows for the licenced holder of the firearm to instruct an individual to stow the gun..

Yep the master of the house or the lord of the Estate would instruct his man, Alfred to fetch the DBSG in double quick time old chap...

And that's specifically catered for in the firearms act old chap:

2(4)(f) the carriage for sporting purposes only of a firearm or ammunition under instructions from and for the use of the holder of a firearm certificate for such firearm or ammunition;

Not the same thing, and by its inclusion, excludes all others old bean

sikastag

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is very much my problem with the idea that introducing kids to guns at an early age will teach them a healthy respect for firearm safety.

A gun is not like a golf club or a tennis racket. It's not like those things at all, and it should not be treated as such - a gun is a very potentially and instantly lethal piece of kit, and that should carry a healthy taboo with it because that's something that should be taken very seriously indeed.

I've worked with a lot of guns and a lot of people using them, and it's been my experience that the longer people are around them, the more complacent they tend to get about it. It doesn't matter how much they're drilled and trained and lectured, it's just a natural human response. The more you handle them, the more you start to view them as a tool just like any other, and that's something that should be consciously resisted.

You shouldn't ever be comfortable carrying a gun. It only takes the once for something to go badly wrong.

Firstly it was an analogy not a comparison. Secondly I disagree with your post.

I do believe if you quoted the rest of my post it might fill in the gaps in what seems like a pretty outrageous statement. Throughout my post I mentioned safety as I genuinely do believe in maintaining high levels of safety.

To reitterate my point about the golf club. I do not view my firearms as a weapon or something to harm people. That doesent necessarily make me complacent when using them. Again another point i mentioned which you chose to omit was that I beleived my exposure to firearms was a healthier option to the light in which the film industry/media etc portrays them in.

sikastag

jill_valentine wrote: »

We fired them very frequently indeed. That said, I also grew up with a couple of guns in the house, I'm familiar with them in a couple of contexts.

But it is something you see creep in, among people who'd never admit it and should know better. Trigger safety or carry angle, things like that shouldn't just be observed out of habit and muscle memory. You should be actively aware of where your trigger finger is and where your barrel is pointing, because the piece of machinery in question has the potential to do real damage to somebody if you aren't careful.

I don't think you should be trembling in your boots everytime you have one in your hands, and it's a good thing to be very familiar with it's workings - but you should never let yourself get relaxed about it.

And that does go for hunters too - even if somebody only ever uses a gun for shooting rabbits, it's still a gun, and it can still do damage if they get sloppy with it. I hate seeing people talk about their gun as if owning or using one comes with all the responsibility of an iPod or a mobile or something. I'm not saying that's happening here, but it's a particular bugbear of mine, it drives me bananas.

Most people will never see the worst happen, but they shouldn't ever forget that it can.

ipod or mobile? Are you referring to my post? Thats a bit unfair. Theres even a massive difference between owning a mobile and a golf club. I own both. And you might not beleive this but a golf club is just as lethal as a firearm, just their effective ranges differ considerably.

Even the use of a golf club for me was based around safety. I started at a similar age to hunting. For example, swinging the club in the house, if your at a practice range etc always check there is nobody behind you before you swing. I have seen the results of that and it wasnt nice. Always check the hole is clear in front of you before striking the ball. This I can vouch for. Getting struck in the back with a flying object like a golfball hurts! There is the potential to be struck with a golfball from 250-300mts.

I accept your point about complacency. It could creep in. But from my experience. Complacency is much more pervasive in adults who arent exposed at a young age. As mentioned in my first post, I have seen grown men starting out shooting make fundamental mistakes with firearms, luckily without due harm to others but this may have been down to not having an intimate knowledge of the firearm and all that goes with it (safety etc).
I think the attitude 'Im old enough now to use a firearm' sometimes can lead to a belief that a person is automatically qualified in its use. Scary thought that.

Sparks

sikastag wrote: »

a golf club is just as lethal as a firearm, just their effective ranges differ considerably.

Actually, with two of my three firearms, the golf club's lethal range is greater than the possible lethal range of the firearms themselves (you'd have to use all of them as clubs to be lethal and the golf club is longer).
And my firearms are hardly that esoteric.

Thomasofmel

I think it is important to show your kids what a weapon (rifle, pistol, etc) is and educate your kids about them. I clean my rifles at home, my kids (4yr & 7yr) are interested, ask a lot of questions, which I do answer to best of my knowledge.

I do not let them use them, not in the field or on the range, nor I show where in the house they are kept. All ammo is locked away in the house as well. I will get a junior air rifle or pistol in few years time for the kids as it is the way I started shooting. It is a sport as any other, and it is safe when you act safe. :cool:

I would not post pics of my rifles in FB though... :rolleyes:

meathstevie

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is very much my problem with the idea that introducing kids to guns at an early age will teach them a healthy respect for firearm safety.

A gun is not like a golf club or a tennis racket. It's not like those things at all, and it should not be treated as such - a gun is a very potentially and instantly lethal piece of kit, and that should carry a healthy taboo with it because that's something that should be taken very seriously indeed.

I've worked with a lot of guns and a lot of people using them, and it's been my experience that the longer people are around them, the more complacent they tend to get about it. It doesn't matter how much they're drilled and trained and lectured, it's just a natural human response. The more you handle them, the more you start to view them as a tool just like any other, and that's something that should be consciously resisted.

You shouldn't ever be comfortable carrying a gun. It only takes the once for something to go badly wrong.

I think you're making one major mistake in your post, if you are handling carrying and using a firearm be it recreationally or professionally you should be as comfortable as possible with it. You should be familiar with it workings, you should know how to safely load and more importantly unload. There's nothing worse than a jittery git holding something they're not comfortable carrying or are unfamiliar with; that's when accidents happen.

tac foley

Manic Moran wrote: »

The NRA in the US has a program called "Eddie the Eagle",...etc NTM

Great post, Mr Moran, and one for which I offer my unconditional support.

I took my first step toward shooting as a hobby and pastime when I was six years old - with my dad's Colt .45 M1911. True, he had his hands wrapped firmly round mine, and the backstop was the ocean, but the KA-BOOM was something I'll never forget as long as I live - as were the size of the holes in the garbage can lid that we were shooting at. I was impressed.

Later that same year we moved on to his Walther .22 rifle - I have it still - always closely supervised until, at age nine, I was allowed to stand and shoot it by myself. I moved on from there...that was 55 years ago.

I get to shoot over in Switzerland every couple of years with my old Swiss stuff, BTW, and the sight of all the youngsters shooting the socks off their elders is a real treat.

Same as Camp Perry and the CMP this year, watching a small-framed girl shooting her own M1 Garand in the standing match and beating the military in score.

Take care, eh?

tac
Member - Clark rifles, Brush Prairie, Ft Vancouver WA

demonloop

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

If you are afraid of a firearm it is because you do not understand it fully.

sikastag wrote: »

I do not view my firearms as a weapon or something to harm people.

Sums it up for me.

Or, as Sigmund Freud said, 'A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity'

I'd tend to fear a madman holding a butter knife more than the parish priest with a Barrett .50

deeksofdoom

Manic Moran wrote: »

The NRA in the US has a program called "Eddie the Eagle", which basically is aimed at kids aged about 8 and below. Basically the curriculum consists of teaching the youngsters "If you see a gun, stop, don't touch, leave the room, tell an adult"

Excellent post and thats exactly what I'll be teaching my little girl when she's old enough to understand.

DeVore

I grew up near the sea. The first thing my father did was teach me to swim. I learned about the awesome power of the sea and rip tides and currents and was a strong swimmer before I ever went near the sea.

If you have guns in your house, teach your kids about them and then keep them out of their reach when you are not teaching them. Dont just tell them not to go near daddys special bangstick, make sure they physically cannot get near it once you have drilled it into them that they are dangerous. Dont let them see how it is accessed either (or they might pinch your keys!)


A house with a swimming pool is more likely to kill a kid then a house with a gun.

I'm not a big fan of guns, but I am a big fan of intelligence.

DeV.

Grizzly 45

Long ,long time ago before anyone had heard of child protection laws ,insurance,and common sense ruled the day[most of the time]
And Grizzly was a very young cub[around the mid 1960s].His old man being a firm beliver in keeping his firearms loaded and on a gun rack over the mantle piece,and hadnt botherd reading the Doctor Spocks manual on child rearing...[Go Google it if this has lost you]
Yours truly decided one day after being told DO NOT TOUCH!! to do so.
I got such a trashing,I think I ate dinner standing up for a week afterwards,because my ass was so sore.But I never touched the guns again,unless I was with my old man and under his explicit instruction,and supervision.But I was by the age of ten shooting by myself with my own .410 SBBL shotgun on our farm.Reason ,I was trusted not to go off and do somthing stupid with it.

Grizzly 45

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is very much my problem with the idea that introducing kids to guns at an early age will teach them a healthy respect for firearm safety.

A gun is not like a golf club or a tennis racket. It's not like those things at all, and it should not be treated as such - a gun is a very potentially and instantly lethal piece of kit, and that should carry a healthy taboo with it because that's something that should be taken very seriously indeed.

I've worked with a lot of guns and a lot of people using them, and it's been my experience that the longer people are around them, the more complacent they tend to get about it. It doesn't matter how much they're drilled and trained and lectured, it's just a natural human response. The more you handle them, the more you start to view them as a tool just like any other, and that's something that should be consciously resisted.

You shouldn't ever be comfortable carrying a gun. It only takes the once for something to go badly wrong.

Do tell what exactly is your experiance Jill ??Army or Police??

Jill,you could apply that arguement to power tools,kids in souped up cars,or the " Fiesta pony tail Blonde" woman driver with the 14 kids climbing over ,around and out of the car:rolleyes:...The farmer with the non PTO gaurd on the tractor or the "quiet" bull.They are the ones that have the complacency problem and the most fatalities here in Ireland.
Yes complacency kills,no doubt about it.BUT we have more road deaths than firearm deaths here.I could never understand why in the US they pull you in every 5years to redo your driving test..Until I started driving for a living in Ireland!!Complacency and idiocy rules on our roads.In comparision us gunowners are 99.9% safe.

kildare.17hmr

I think the OP is right to teach his son from a young age if he shows an interest, i think its great! my da thought me to drive as soon as i could see over the steering wheel always in a safe environment like the OP cleaning his gun with his son. Prob not the best idea for security tho puttin the pics on facebook but its his choice and as for the friend, who needs friends like that anyway??? hope your son keeps the interest in the future

Kev

Grizzly 45

WTF anyone would want to put anything on Facebook or such in the first place is wayy beyond me.Do we really have to advertise everything about our lives to the whole world??But please continue to do so.It makes my life in tracking&tracing folks all the more easier..;):D

DeVore

Yeah, wouldnt have put the pics online tbh. Its not a good idea and it advertises that you have a gun in your house to criminals.

DeV.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

WTF anyone would want to put anything on Facebook or such in the first place is wayy beyond me.Do we really have to advertise everything about our lives to the whole world?

Speaking personally, I have photos of me with guns on my facebook pages.
It's just that you guys can't see them because of the privacy settings (well, except for a few taken at matches and the like). I have them there so my folks and siblings can see what I'm up to and they do the same, it's how we stay in touch when all of us are scattered all over the country and only meet up physically every few weeks. Same with some friends of mine who've had to emigrate to follow the work and the like.
It's like a chainsaw - very useful if you use it properly with the right safety equipment; and a fast way to damage yourself if you don't.

Dvs

jill_valentine wrote: »

We fired them very frequently indeed.

It's great to see we have another,
SWAT-Spec Op's-Top Secret-Sworn to Secrecy-Expert,
on the boards shooting forum......





:rolleyes:

Dvs.

P.S.
The tales I could tell about the world of Espionage,
but for my vow sub rosa,
as I was saying to the Director of the CIA the other day.......

:rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho

Dvs wrote: »

It's great to see we have another,
SWAT-Spec Op's-Top Secret-Sworn to Secrecy-Expert,
on the boards shooting forum......





:rolleyes:

Dvs.

P.S.
The tales I could tell about the world of Espionage,
but for my vow sub rosa,
as I was saying to the Director of the CIA the other day.......

:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Valentine

Say no more, Skirmish did I hear you say? Read between the lines

Sparks

That's not a problem with boards.ie though DvS.
If I had a euro for every time I heard at the post-match banter of how person X was a world-acclaimed expert in field Y and therefore fact Z should be taken as gospel, I could afford to buy some very nice toys by now.
And that's just the stuff we heard face to face. Start reading through the magazines aimed at our small community and you could buy a small house with the same funding model...

Dusty87

Sparks wrote: »

Speaking personally, I have photos of me with guns on my facebook pages.
It's just that you guys can't see them

Sparks, add me pleaaaaase:D:D:rolleyes:

Sparks

Dusty87 wrote: »

Sparks, add me pleaaaaase:D:D:rolleyes:

Ah, they're not that interesting
(And the ones that are are up on 10point9 anyway).


Though it's true that one or two are funny

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Ah, they're not that interesting
(And the ones that are are up on 10point9 anyway).


Though it's true that one or two are funny

Whats the story with the Butchers apron?;)

Sparks

Same story as with the chef's hat - I was cooking at the WTSC BBQ at the time, we had a concurrent fun 5-shot match, so I had just enough time between waves of burger-seekers to get upstairs and shoot the five shots, but only barely, hence the lack of changing kit

Hasn't stopped the comparison's to the Swedish Chef's doughnut-making technique though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbs64GvGgPU

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Whats the story with the Butchers apron?;)

It gives you a good idea what he was doing to that target.