Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

shuffol

As far as selections and gameplan is concerned we've seen absolutely no vision over the past 2 years. Some of the selections in particular have been downright baffling. Murrays rapid promotion, Paddy Wallace as back 3 cover for the entire 2011 6N, SOB being behind Leamy for the 2010 AI's when he's the form player in the country. 2 locks injured now and still Tuohys nowhere to be seen. Its morale sapping stuff.

ambid

Good put down from Rory Best to some random prat on twitter who was giving him grief. First correct his spelling, then rise above the abuse.

Rory Best ‏ @RoryBest2
“@dh4005:how are you captaining ireland I jut don't get Declan kidney #noaffence” FYI its offence but none taken #ifurgoingtoslaglearn2spell"

duckysauce

ambid wrote: »

Good put down from Rory Best to some random prat on twitter who was giving him grief. First correct his spelling, then rise above the abuse.

sweet

thomond2006

ligind

shuffol

Even his put downs are done in an unassuming manner.

CatFromHue

shuffol wrote: »

As far as selections and gameplan is concerned we've seen absolutely no vision over the past 2 years. Some of the selections in particular have been downright baffling. Murrays rapid promotion, Paddy Wallace as back 3 cover for the entire 2011 6N, SOB being behind Leamy for the 2010 AI's when he's the form player in the country. 2 locks injured now and still Tuohys nowhere to be seen. Its morale sapping stuff.

I'm going to play Devils Advocate here.

Paddy Wallace covers 12 and 15 (he's played a fair bit there for Ulster) and the back line for most of that 6 Nations was Fitzgerald, Earls, BOD, D'arcy, and Bowe.

If D'arcy has to come off it's a direct swap with Wallace. If BOD comes off Wallace comes on at 12 and D'arcy moves to 13. If Fitzgerald gets injured it's a direct swap for Wallace. If Bowe or Earls gets injured then Wallace comes on at 15 and Fitzgerald moves to the wing. So all the backline positions are covered in the event of an injury with only the one or two changes.

If Trimble were on the bench he realistically only covers wing. If Fitzgerald got injured Earls could cover with Trimble coming to the wing. If D'arcy got injured though the cover would have to be Fitzgerald. So the backline then would have three changes in it: Trimble to wing, Earls to fullback, and Fitzgerald to 12. That's alot of changes for the one injury.

While Leamy was on the bench for the SA, NZ, and Arg games they both got the same amount of starts i.e. they both played against Samoa.

Who are the two locks that are injured? I can only think of POC. McCarthy was in the initial RWC training squad and also played against the English Saxons so it is assumed he is ahead of Tuohy.

irishbucsfan

That scenario is completely let down by the fact Wallace hasn't a hope of playing 15 at international level.

I think it was more like Wallace on at 12 and D'Arcy covering the wings with Earls covering full back.

Fireball07

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That scenario is completely let down by the fact Wallace hasn't a hope of playing 15 at international level.

I think it was more like Wallace on at 12 and D'Arcy covering the wings with Earls covering full back.

This. But didn't Wallace come on to the wing at some stage? And I seem to remember it ending badly.

Wallace covers 12...he's a good 12. But that's it. I'd rather have a person who only plays wing on the bench than someone who can just play 12.

Leinster7

desertcircus wrote: »

I honestly don't get this. Assuming that the average pro's Test career is eight years (which is probably optimistic), you're looking at pulling through a full squad of thirty over that time frame. Add two just in case, and we arrive at a need to produce 32 Test internationals - not 32 players who happen to have won a couple of caps - every eight years, or four new long-term picks every year. Of course, there's World Cup years, and the following year is ranking-points year, so those are crucially important and blooding players has to take a backseat. Let's say we blood two major new Test players in each of those years. In an eight-year cycle, that means the two off-years are your chance to produce serious contenders for the jersey. You need six new major players in each of these years; players you've tested in the right circumstances, not just players you've thrown in because of injury. In Ireland's case, this means that we need to produce twelve players between 2013 and 2014; to do that, we'll need to give at least sixteen players a serious chance to prove themselves (what that means is at least three games, picked to give them a chance; there's no point in giving a promising 22-year-old thirteen a starting cap against New Zealand) in those two years. I can't emphasise how important this is; it's the difference between being able to cope with an injury and having more or less no idea what's going to happen in the event of one. It's the difference between a succession plan and a total panic.

Paul O'Connell is out for the rest of the Six Nations, and we honestly have no idea who'll perform best in a green jersey out of Dan Tuohy, Mike McCarthy, Devin Toner and Ryan Caldwell, because we've made virtually zero effort to give those players a chance to show what they can do. We don't know whether to select Peter O'Mahony or Chris Henry, because the management team might never have even bothered playing Sean O'Brien if it hadn't been for an injury crisis. Both Conor Murray and Eoin Reddan got their serious shots at the number nine jersey only once their predecessor had imploded spectacularly, at which point they were handed their first real chance at the biggest competition in the world. Brian O'Driscoll is out and Gordon Darcy is in poor form and we have absolutely no idea what to do about the midfield because the management have quite literally never planned for it. It's a shocking, abysmal failure to look past the next game, and as long as it remains the same we'll shoot no higher than a few Triple Crowns and a Six Nations title once every few decades. We might as well forget the World Cup completely.

By the end of 2014, the Ireland management need to know how Sherry, Strauss, Hagan, Toner, McCarthy, Tuohy, Ruddock, Ryan, Henry, Marshall, Madigan, O'Malley, McFadden, Spence, Cave, Gilroy, Kearney Jr, Zebo and Jones are likely to do in an Ireland jersey at the deep end. We should be looking into the Six Nations 2015 knowing EXACTLY what those players' strengths and weaknesses are at Test level, who they need to be partnered with if they're still wet behind the ears, and what kind of gameplan they're best suited to.

In reality, of the nineteen players named above, I'll be genuinely astonished if half of them get five games in those two years without getting their chance due to injury to the established first (and probably second) choices.

And this is why we won't get past the quarter finals on the next RWC. The IRFU are most at fault for this lack of vision not only in their selection of Kidney as manager but their seeming inability and lack of courage to fire him when we continue to faulter and stagnate after 3years....

Leinster7

Leinster7 wrote: »

And this is why we won't get past the quarter finals on the next RWC. The IRFU are most at fault for this lack of vision not only in their selection of Kidney as manager but their seeming inability and lack of courage to fire him when we continue to faulter and stagnate after 3years....

would you ever settle? You post the same thing on every single thread. We get it, in fact I agree with you on most points, but you're like a wee little jack russell begging for attention.

leftleg

Deleted User wrote: »

would you ever settle? You post the same thing on every single thread. We get it, in fact I agree with you on most points, but you're like a wee little jack russell begging for attention.

Hes absolutely aloud his opinions; if you have a problem with them; just press ignore

onlyrocknroll

phog wrote: »

@emerald rugby tweeted

Congrats to Rory and the record to be broken the following week, hopefully with two wins under his belt as captain.

That's even more impressive when you consider his age and that he had competition from Flannery.

.ak

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

That's even more impressive when you consider his age and that he had competition from Flannery.

It helps that he doesn't karate-kick people.

Otacon

.ak wrote: »

It helps that he doesn't karate-kick people.

Flannery doesn't karate-kick people, he was just trying to punt the ball into space.

So the ball was still in the opponents hands, everyone can mistime kicks.

:pac:

Fishooks12

leftleg wrote: »

Hes absolutely aloud his opinions; if you have a problem with them; just press ignore

sadly you can still see when he's quoted

NikNak8

Impressive, and am surprised due to the Flannery competition, wonder how many were from the bench compared to Wood.

leftleg

Fishooks12 wrote: »

sadly you can still see when he's quoted

I know, I know (sighs) we all try our best not to get involved but its the nature of the game im afraid; boards.ie "now yer talkin"

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That scenario is completely let down by the fact Wallace hasn't a hope of playing 15 at international level.

I think it was more like Wallace on at 12 and D'Arcy covering the wings with Earls covering full back.

As Fireball said against Wales Wallace came on at 15 for Fitzgerald with Earls staying out on the wing. It didn't end badly either. He didn't pass to Earls at the death but cut in and set up again.

I assume though Wallace was on the bench as there would have been fewer positional changes overall in the case of injury to the starting 15 than if Trimble were on the bench.

phog

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

That's even more impressive when you consider his age and that he had competition from Flannery.

I would think Woods missed out a lot from injury and Best may have a lot more cpas from the bench. Not knocking his contribution as I have massive regard for him, even when Fla was fit I never minded him getting the nod, would always have preferred the Munster guy to be ahead but overall I never threw the toys out of the pram.

RoundBox11

SOB is out with his foot for the Scotland game. Shane Jennings has been called up to the squad

Noopti

RoundBox11 wrote: »

SOB is out with his foot for the Scotland game. Shane Jennings has been called up to the squad

Will be very interesting to see how POM goes now. As usual it takes an injury for Kidney to give a young player a chance.

MungBean

Hope POM has a huge game, great opportunity for him as it wont be a picnic but we should have enough to secure a win. Good hard fought win will break him into the squad nicely.

.ak

Jennings on the bench.

Clegg

This 6 Nations is going from bad to worse.

All our best players keep getting injured.

Don't agree with the Jennings call up either. He's not as good as he was in previous seasons.

Chris Henry has been shafted in this selection.

CiaranMT

Aye should have been Henry. Jennings won't be in the reckoning for the next WC. Henry should be.

tolosenc

How Jennings and POM are ahead of Henry is mystifying.

Does Deccie hate Ulster now? Has no choice when it comes to Ferris and Best, after that he ignores quality players like Henry, Touhy, Marshall, Gilroy...

Clegg

Michael Corcoran is saying that Henry has an achilles injury. This probably explains the Jennings call-up.

Although Kidney probably would probably have called up Jennings even if Henry were fit.

padraig.od

Clegg wrote: »

Michael Corcoran is saying that Henry has an achilles injury. This probably explains the Jennings call-up.

Although Kidney probably would probably have called up Jennings even if Henry were fit.

d

shuffol

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm going to play Devils Advocate here.

Paddy Wallace covers 12 and 15 (he's played a fair bit there for Ulster) and the back line for most of that 6 Nations was Fitzgerald, Earls, BOD, D'arcy, and Bowe.

If D'arcy has to come off it's a direct swap with Wallace. If BOD comes off Wallace comes on at 12 and D'arcy moves to 13. If Fitzgerald gets injured it's a direct swap for Wallace. If Bowe or Earls gets injured then Wallace comes on at 15 and Fitzgerald moves to the wing. So all the backline positions are covered in the event of an injury with only the one or two changes.

If Trimble were on the bench he realistically only covers wing. If Fitzgerald got injured Earls could cover with Trimble coming to the wing. If D'arcy got injured though the cover would have to be Fitzgerald. So the backline then would have three changes in it: Trimble to wing, Earls to fullback, and Fitzgerald to 12. That's alot of changes for the one injury.

While Leamy was on the bench for the SA, NZ, and Arg games they both got the same amount of starts i.e. they both played against Samoa.

Who are the two locks that are injured? I can only think of POC. McCarthy was in the initial RWC training squad and also played against the English Saxons so it is assumed he is ahead of Tuohy.

Thats a fair point about Wallace being bench cover but tbh I highly doubt that was the logic that Kidney was following, I suspect it was a decision based on seniority, experience and not having the balls to drop an established guy from the squad. All I know is that we'd 2 centers with no test level experience at anywhere other than center and all our back 3 players had test level experience at center and we go and pick a guy who can realistically only play 12 to cover our back 3. It was a selection that offered poor coverage in case of injury in all but one position and very little impact from the bench, as evidenced by the fact Wallace only made 2 appearances, one as injury cover that went poorly and a 2 minute cameo against England when the game was won. Alternatives were Trimble(covers 11,14 and has played test rugby at 13), Mcfadden(covers 11,12,13,14) and for the England game Fitzgerald was dropped out of the squad altgether and he can cover 11-15.

As for SOB and Leamy getting the same amount of starts, Leamy was selected in every matchday squad in the AI's, SOB was selected in one, a fairly meaningless game against Samoa. This despite the fact that he was arguably the most impressive performer in Europe that season, had extensive experience at 7 and we'd a 34 year old no.7 who's career was coming to a close. At least give SOB a cameo against NZ or S.A and see how he does, it was conservatism gone mad, I wonder would SOB be in the Irish squad even now had injury not forced Kidneys hand.

The two locks injured are POC and Cullen, Cullen was selected in the original squad.

Sorry to return to this now but I felt like an ould rant, feel better now though.

CatFromHue

shuffol wrote: »

Thats a fair point about Wallace being bench cover but tbh I highly doubt that was the logic that Kidney was following, I suspect it was a decision based on seniority, experience and not having the balls to drop an established guy from the squad. All I know is that we'd 2 centers with no test level experience at anywhere other than center and all our back 3 players had test level experience at center and we go and pick a guy who can realistically only play 12 to cover our back 3. It was a selection that offered poor coverage in case of injury in all but one position and very little impact from the bench, as evidenced by the fact Wallace only made 2 appearances, one as injury cover that went poorly and a 2 minute cameo against England when the game was won. Alternatives were Trimble(covers 11,14 and has played test rugby at 13), Mcfadden(covers 11,12,13,14) and for the England game Fitzgerald was dropped out of the squad altgether and he can cover 11-15.

As for SOB and Leamy getting the same amount of starts, Leamy was selected in every matchday squad in the AI's, SOB was selected in one, a fairly meaningless game against Samoa. This despite the fact that he was arguably the most impressive performer in Europe that season, had extensive experience at 7 and we'd a 34 year old no.7 who's career was coming to a close. At least give SOB a cameo against NZ or S.A and see how he does, it was conservatism gone mad, I wonder would SOB be in the Irish squad even now had injury not forced Kidneys hand.

The two locks injured are POC and Cullen, Cullen was selected in the original squad.

Sorry to return to this now but I felt like an ould rant, feel better now though.

I don't think you can say he didn't have the balls to drop Wallace as Fitzgerald didn't make the RWC but McFadden did and if Felix Jones hadn't of gotten injured Geordan Murphy wouldn't have gone. Neither McFadden nor Jones had anything remotely near the seniority or experience of Fitzgerald and Murphy either.

As I mentioned in my earlier post Wallace provided better injury cover than Trimble. All the positions could have been covered with less positional changes.

I don't think the Samoa game was meaningless, or it was as meaningless as the other games in the AI's. If I remember right SOB didn't set the world alight in that game (not that anyone did in fairness). The below was written about him:

"Those close to the camp say O'Brien has become grumpier this season. Sadly, that didn't translate on to the pitch in sufficient force to oust David Wallace from the starting blocks for next weekend's tie"
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/autumn-internationals/ireland-player-ratings-2420313.html

I have to say I forgot about Cullen completely.