Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

shuffol

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't think you can say he didn't have the balls to drop Wallace as Fitzgerald didn't make the RWC but McFadden did and if Felix Jones hadn't of gotten injured Geordan Murphy wouldn't have gone. Neither McFadden nor Jones had anything remotely near the seniority or experience of Fitzgerald and Murphy either.

As I mentioned in my earlier post Wallace provided better injury cover than Trimble. All the positions could have been covered with less positional changes.

I don't think the Samoa game was meaningless, or it was as meaningless as the other games in the AI's. If I remember right SOB didn't set the world alight in that game (not that anyone did in fairness). The below was written about him:

"Those close to the camp say O'Brien has become grumpier this season. Sadly, that didn't translate on to the pitch in sufficient force to oust David Wallace from the starting blocks for next weekend's tie"
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/autumn-internationals/ireland-player-ratings-2420313.html

I have to say I forgot about Cullen completely.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Wallace, again he offered reasonable injury cover in a fairly limited scenario and virtually no impact. He really only covered 12 to any significant competence and as we can see now thats a position Sexton can also cover. The bench spot could've been put to far better use as evidenced by the fact that Wallace despite being in every squad only played about 20 mins through the whole tournament.

As for the Samoa game, it was effectively meaningless in that no matter how well SOB played he was probably never going to get him into the next squad, can you give me a single example under Kidney of a player forcing his way into a squad for a big game on the basis of a performance against a tier 2 side. Such games only seem to become meaningful where the player performs poorly.

CatFromHue

shuffol wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree about Wallace, again he offered reasonable injury cover in a fairly limited scenario and virtually no impact. He really only covered 12 to any significant competence and as we can see now thats a position Sexton can also cover. The bench spot could've been put to far better use as evidenced by the fact that Wallace despite being in every squad only played about 20 mins through the whole tournament.

As for the Samoa game, it was effectively meaningless in that no matter how well SOB played he was probably never going to get him into the next squad, can you give me a single example under Kidney of a player forcing his way into a squad for a big game on the basis of a performance against a tier 2 side. Such games only seem to become meaningful where the player performs poorly.

John Sexton after playing very well against Fiji got the start for the next game against South Africa in 2009. SA were the then reigning Tri Nations champions.

jm08

shuffol wrote: »

As for SOB and Leamy getting the same amount of starts, Leamy was selected in every matchday squad in the AI's, SOB was selected in one, a fairly meaningless game against Samoa. This despite the fact that he was arguably the most impressive performer in Europe that season, had extensive experience at 7 and we'd a 34 year old no.7 who's career was coming to a close. At least give SOB a cameo against NZ or S.A and see how he does, it was conservatism gone mad, I wonder would SOB be in the Irish squad even now had injury not forced Kidneys hand.

sorry for disturbing your rant but ...

sob had only started 2 heineken cup games prior to the AIs the season that he played against samoa in the AIs (saracens & racing) as that is all there were by that stage of the season and both games he was at 6, not 7. peter o'mahony is getting similar treatment in how he is being selected even though he has had a lot more heineken cup games under his belt than sob had.

edit: p wallace is kept in the squad becuase if anything happens to sexton or rog, they need someone to sub who trains with the team and knows all the calls.

CIARAN_BOYLE

jm08 wrote: »

sorry for disturbing your rant but ...

sob had only started 2 heineken cup games prior to the AIs the season that he played against samoa in the AIs (saracens & racing) as that is all there were by that stage of the season and both games he was at 6, not 7. peter o'mahony is getting similar treatment in how he is being selected even though he has had a lot more heineken cup games under his belt than sob had.

edit: p wallace is kept in the squad becuase if anything happens to sexton or rog, they need someone to sub who trains with the team and knows all the calls.

Brive, prior to Samoa
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/3880.php

Scarletsx2 prior to Samoa
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=lineups&fixid=95371

and of course Castres back in 08
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=lineups&fixid=95368

jm08

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Brive, prior to Samoa
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/3880.php

Scarletsx2 prior to Samoa
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=lineups&fixid=95371

and of course Castres back in 08
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=lineups&fixid=95368

the dates can get confusing but

The Samoa game was on 13th Nov 2010.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/20969.php

leinster played Racing on 09/10/2010
saracens on 16/10/2010

Next Heineken cup game was after the AIs.

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-zoom-5350-hcup-2010-game.html

Scarlets was the year before ('09) (and in december anyway which would have been after the AIs).

Incidentally, sob got 40 mins against Fiji & SA in the '09 AIs.

irishbucsfan

2010 wasn't the first time SOB lookked great for leinster though.

Also, people weeent looking for him to start, just to be in the squad ahead of Denis Leamy.

Why wasn't Mike Ross in the squad?

gaius c

shuffol wrote: »

As for the Samoa game, it was effectively meaningless in that no matter how well SOB played he was probably never going to get him into the next squad, can you give me a single example under Kidney of a player forcing his way into a squad for a big game on the basis of a performance against a tier 2 side. Such games only seem to become meaningful where the player performs poorly.

The thing about SOB is that he was still on his way back from a lengthy injury layoff, which caused him to miss the summer tour a few months previously.

irishbucsfan

gaius c wrote: »

shuffol wrote: »

As for the Samoa game, it was effectively meaningless in that no matter how well SOB played he was probably never going to get him into the next squad, can you give me a single example under Kidney of a player forcing his way into a squad for a big game on the basis of a performance against a tier 2 side. Such games only seem to become meaningful where the player performs poorly.

The thing about SOB is that he was still on his way back from a lengthy injury layoff, which caused him to miss the summer tour a few months previously.

He played the full season and was effectively the best player on the pitch in 3 massive games for leinster, against Munster and in the HEC. He had been fully fit for months.

Why are people trying to revise history to pretend the selections of Leamy over O'Brien and Hayes/Buckley over Ross werent terrible? It was obvious at the time, let alone now years later when our frustrations have been vindicated.

The selection of Leamy over O'Brien was poor.

The selection of Hayes/Buckley over Ross was borderline insanity.

NikNak8

Deleted User wrote: »

The selection of Leamy over O'Brien was poor.

The selection of Hayes/Buckley over Ross was borderline insanity.

Depends whether you prioritise scrums or lineouts and restarts. Lineouts have defo gone downhill but scrums have improved.

NikNak8

NikNak8 wrote: »

Depends whether you prioritise scrums or lineouts and restarts. Lineouts have defo gone downhill but scrums have improved.

how often do you concede 3 points or 50m of field position and possession from a lineout?

Hayes was a great lineout lifter, but the difference between him and AN other at lineout time was absolutely nowhere near the difference between Ross and Hayes/Buckley at scrum time.

leftleg

NikNak8 wrote: »

Depends whether you prioritise scrums or lineouts and restarts. Lineouts have defo gone downhill but scrums have improved.

Not sure what exactly you mean by this; are you trying to say in some cases its ok to play Buckley at international level??

NikNak8

Just saying that before our lineout used to be a weapon and last weekend we missed a glorious oppertunity of scoring with a lineout in the French 22 and also conceeded a try after messing one up too. Happened against Wales also and probably will happen this weekend.

GerM

NikNak8 wrote: »

Depends whether you prioritise scrums or lineouts and restarts. Lineouts have defo gone downhill but scrums have improved.

Line outs were wobbling badly before Ross arrived. He's definitely not as good a lifter but there's a lot more going on there. Scotland in 2010 for example where there was just a complete systems failure in all facets and we had a nightmare in the line out. POC is a fantastic jumper, the best we have but his calls are odd at times. The demise of our line out has been down to a number of things. Hayes, Flannery, MOK and O'Donovan were all major components in the best line out in the world. Also didn't hurt when our entire line out was the Munster pack which knew each other inside out.

leftleg

NikNak8 wrote: »

Just saying that before our lineout used to be a weapon and last weekend we missed a glorious oppertunity of scoring with a lineout in the French 22 and also conceeded a try after messing one up too. Happened against Wales also and probably will happen this weekend.

Best had an off day with the darts; John Hayes has retired; please get over it

NikNak8

Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of Ross, but it is interesting to consider the different facets of the game different players bring and what the trade off is. Hayes was a big contributer to our lineout and this has been acknowledged by all concerned. Since he left it has not been anywhere near as effective in my opinion.

NikNak8

Get over what? I dont have any angst or bitterness or sense of loss. I am merely highlighting what these players that someone was critisising brought to the game.

leftleg

Id take a fully functioning scrum and pretty good lineout any day over a non existent scrum and excellent lineout.

leftleg

NikNak8 wrote: »

Get over what? I dont have any angst or bitterness or sense of loss. I am merely highlighting what these players that someone was critisising brought to the game.

Hayes is retired and Buckley is useless; there is/should be no discussion on this imo

NikNak8

leftleg wrote: »

Hayes is retired and Buckley is useless; there is/should be no discussion on this imo

Then why are you discussing it iyo?;)

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

2010 wasn't the first time SOB lookked great for leinster though.

Also, people weeent looking for him to start, just to be in the squad ahead of Denis Leamy.

Why wasn't Mike Ross in the squad?

we talking about the season that sob filled in for jennings when he was suspended and was dropped by leinster to the bench as soon as jennings came back even though jennings hadn't played for 3 months?

don't think sob had any Heineken cup experience playing at 8 whereas leamy had international experience at 6 and 8 so would have been a better bench option then.

ross - presumably because he hadn't been playing much up to a few weeks before the AIs and he was going to have to last the full 80 mins. then buckley had been excellent on the tour that summer so he wasn't undeserving.

leftleg

NikNak8 wrote: »

Then why are you discussing it iyo?;)

lol you got me!!

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

we talking about the season that sob filled in for jennings when he was suspended and was dropped by leinster to the bench as soon as jennings came back even though jennings hadn't played for 3 months?

don't think sob had any Heineken cup experience playing at 8 whereas leamy had international experience at 6 and 8 so would have been a better bench option then.

ross - presumably because he hadn't been playing much up to a few weeks before the AIs and he was going to have to last the full 80 mins. then buckley had been excellent on the tour that summer so he wasn't undeserving.

And what about after "that tour"

Let me refresh your memory; he was crap; hence the furore about picking a crap TH instead of the on form TH in Ross.

I suppose your with Kipling on this one too.

Rattlehead_ie

Quoted from the BBC. Love it

Rory Best facts
Made his debut as against NZ in 2005 as a replacement
Helped Ireland win 2007 Triple Crown
Part of 2009 Grand Slam-winning team
Captained Ireland on 2009 North American Tour
Owns prize-winning cattle

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17283477

If this is against the new rules, sorry and edit accordingly

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

we talking about the season that sob filled in for jennings when he was suspended and was dropped by leinster to the bench as soon as jennings came back even though jennings hadn't played for 3 months?

don't think sob had any Heineken cup experience playing at 8 whereas leamy had international experience at 6 and 8 so would have been a better bench option then.

ross - presumably because he hadn't been playing much up to a few weeks before the AIs and he was going to have to last the full 80 mins. then buckley had been excellent on the tour that summer so he wasn't undeserving.

Dan Tuohy and Ed O'Donoghue were both excellent on that tour if memory serves. However, when it came to the AI's, there were better options available, and as such were chosen.

Your logic process is a mis-match of inaccuracy.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, I imagine you might still infer that Buckley did as well as anyone could ask from a TH in that scenario.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Dan Tuohy and Ed O'Donoghue were both excellent on that tour if memory serves. However, when it came to the AI's, there were better options available, and as such were chosen.

Your logic process is a mis-match of inaccuracy.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, I imagine you might still infer that Buckley did as well as anyone could ask from a TH in that scenario.

Your memory isnt serving you well. o'donogue was not capped by ireland and tuohy was a sub against australia in the AIs.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Your memory isnt serving you well. o'donogue was not capped by ireland and tuohy was a sub against australia in the AIs.

Tuohy

On May 2010, Tuohy was named in the 33-man squad for Ireland's summer tour to New Zealand and Australia. He went on to play for Ireland in the non-cap match against the Barbarians on 4 June 2010. On 12 June 2010, Tuohy made his test debut, coming on in the first half of the game against the All Blacks in New Plymouth. Ireland lost the game by 66–28, with Tuohy scoring a try in the first minute after coming on.

Ed O'Donoghue

He was called up to the 2010 Ireland rugby union tour of New Zealand/Australia. He made his first non-cap start against Barbarians and New Zealand Māori in June, 2010.

now shut up

dtpc191991

So we've moved on to lineout bashing. Our lineout has generally been good for the last four seasons. It had a bad day at the office against Scotland 2010 and France last week but that can happen to ant team. If people would only take a look at the stats or even rewatched the match they would see that the Lineout was the one place we beat Wales a few weeks ago.

jm08

leftleg wrote: »

And what about after "that tour"

Let me refresh your memory; he was crap; hence the furore about picking a crap TH instead of the on form TH in Ross.

I suppose your with Kipling on this one too.

Ross on form? - wasn't that around the time that everyone was shouting for schmidt's head because leinster were not doing it up to the game against munster in the aviva in october, a couple of weeks before the AIs.

love the way everyone has moved away from sob onto ross now:D

Cpt_Blackbeard

Kate Harsh Lightning wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

we talking about the season that sob filled in for jennings when he was suspended and was dropped by leinster to the bench as soon as jennings came back even though jennings hadn't played for 3 months?

don't think sob had any Heineken cup experience playing at 8 whereas leamy had international experience at 6 and 8 so would have been a better bench option then.

ross - presumably because he hadn't been playing much up to a few weeks before the AIs and he was going to have to last the full 80 mins. then buckley had been excellent on the tour that summer so he wasn't undeserving.

Dan Tuohy and Ed O'Donoghue were both excellent on that tour if memory serves. However, when it came to the AI's, there were better options available, and as such were chosen.

Your logic process is a mis-match of inaccuracy.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, I imagine you might still infer that Buckley did as well as anyone could ask from a TH in that scenario.

From what I remember, Buckley fully deserved to be starting in the AIs. He was phenomenal against the all blacks and looked to be finally fulfilling his potential. He was solid in the AIs. It was the Ospreys game that signified the start of his implosion.