Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Gelio

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

He is also very slow for an international 15.

Stopped reading after this. He is one of the fastest on the Irish team. Did you watch the Ireland autumn international against South Africa? Really, some of the stuff you come out with :rolleyes:

val_jester

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Kearney is terrible in defense, I wouldn't put a huge amount between himself and Murphy in that regard. He is also very slow for an international 15. He hasn't been training under Schmidt all year so I doubt that his offensive game has evolved much from spinning away from tackles, refusing to pass and garryowens. Personally, I don't think that he has proven that he can play the attacking game that Ireland are looking to play but, he would be brilliant in the Quarter Finals against SA.;They still rely heavily on a kicking game and he is (one of) the best in the world under a high ball.

Thats a load of rubbish. The longer he has been away the worse his form gets. He was actually playing well before injury. As for the Lions tour if you could actually remember the games you'll realise that although SA kicked a lot of ball, Kearney ran the majority of it back, sometimes he takes the wrong options in attack and defence but to say he can't pass or tackle is ridiculous.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I also don't understand why posters here have no problems bringing Ferris/Kearney/Murphy after long injury layoffs but, the same posters are totally against bringing Flannery, even if he proves himself fit in the warmups . He has been out longer than the rest but, they have all been out so long that doubt it would make an extreme difference.

There is a difference between Kearney and Murphy in that they have had one injury and been out for half a year. Flannery has had a number of comeback attempts which have all resulted in re-injurying himself. The difference with Ferris is that Ferris is one of the best players in the world in his position, Flannery is not.

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And he is perfectly capable of playing an attacking game. If you don't think Kearney is capable of playing an attacking game then it means you haven't seen him playing for Leinster (when he's in form).

I never said that he can't play an attacking game, he just hasn't proven that he can play the attacking game that is now expected of fullbacks. He was worldclass under the old interpretations and was brilliant for the Lions but, he suffered from the post-Lions hangover and never recovered form before his injury.

TOL/Fitz/Leamy/JOC are not playing like the players they were after their injury troubles and we can't assume that Kearney is the player he once was. I have no problem with him being given a shot in the warmups or gametime in the SH but, he doesn't deserve the undeserved gametime that Fitz has gotten with Leinster when we have unproven players like Jones who could prove to be more suited to the game that Kidney wants Ireland to play.

val_jester

Deleted User wrote: »

May I digress and say that Dempsey was the better option purely because he was an absolutely outstanding full back, who was never ever caught out of position and read the game so well that even without the attacking prowess of other 15s, managed to score buckets of trys for club and country?

Sorry if I sound like I'm talking him down, Dempsey was an outstanding player for Ireland and I'd agree with what you say but I don't think you could ever say he was the best full back in the world whereas I truly believe that Murphy had the potential to be, or at least I did in 03.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I never said that he can't play an attacking game, he just hasn't proven that he can play the attacking game that is now expected of fullbacks. He was worldclass under the old interpretations and was brilliant for the Lions but, he suffered from the post-Lions hangover and never recovered form before his injury.

TOL/Fitz/Leamy/JOC are not playing like the players they were after their injury troubles and we can't assume that Kearney is the player he once was. I have no problem with him being given a shot in the warmups or gametime in the SH but, he doesn't deserve the undeserved gametime that Fitz has gotten with Leinster when we have unproven players like Jones who could prove to be more suited to the game that Kidney wants Ireland to play.

not one of our full backs available has done this.

val_jester

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I never said that he can't play an attacking game, he just hasn't proven that he can play the attacking game that is now expected of fullbacks. He was worldclass under the old interpretations and was brilliant for the Lions but, he suffered from the post-Lions hangover and never recovered form before his injury.

TOL/Fitz/Leamy/JOC are not playing like the players they were after their injury troubles and we can't assume that Kearney is the player he once was. I have no problem with him being given a shot in the warmups or gametime in the SH but, he doesn't deserve the undeserved gametime that Fitz has gotten with Leinster when we have unproven players like Jones who could prove to be more suited to the game that Kidney wants Ireland to play.

TOL was a one season wonder, Joc is too small, Leamy's game was based on power which hes lost with his injuries and Fitz was never as good as Kearney imo. Kearney will be first choice full back if fit and rightly so, he is well able of playing the Leinster gameplan and he isn't short on confidence so he'll be fine.

val_jester

Deleted User wrote: »

not one of our full backs available has done this.

I'd argue that Earls is capable of playing it. Jones and Kearney can both play, as can Adam Darcy but he isnt good enough.

GerM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I also don't understand why posters here have no problems bringing Ferris/Kearney/Murphy after long injury layoffs but, the same posters are totally against bringing Flannery, even if he proves himself fit in the warmups . He has been out longer than the rest but, they have all been out so long that doubt it would make an extreme difference.

Lets put it into context:

Kearney: 4 ML starts, 2 HEC starts, 2 international starts - 590 minutes and is back in full training.

Murphy: 11 AP starts, 4 HEC starts, 1 international start - 1348 minutes and is back in full training.

Ferris: 4 ML starts, 1 ML sub, 4 HEC starts, 3 international starts, 1 international sub - 807 minutes

Flannery: 1 ML sub, 1 HEC sub - 52 minutes.

The others have far more game time and are back training. Flannery is well into his thirties and has a horrible injury record. It's completely understandable that some people don't see him as an option for the WC. Some people are wondering if he'll be able to return to the professional game.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I never said that he can't play an attacking game, he just hasn't proven that he can play the attacking game that is now expected of fullbacks. He was worldclass under the old interpretations and was brilliant for the Lions but, he suffered from the post-Lions hangover and never recovered form before his injury.

Regardless of his form before his injury, or his post-lions hangover, he is the best Irish full back and will be on the plane. That's the discussion here.

val_jester

val_jester wrote: »

I'd argue that Earls is capable of playing it. Jones and Kearney can both play, as can Adam Darcy but he isnt good enough.

Agreed, and I think I'd like to see the Earls experiment again at 15, even though he's been sensational at 11 in the 6N. Back 3 of Bowe Earls Trimble could be so dangerous.

Also, because Earls' kicking game is weak, and his running game is a serious strength, we'd enjoy the games much more!

However, I think that "Proof" that Jones is capable (6 games?) is still missing, Kearney and Murphy both have to prove fitness before they can prove ability, I like D'Arcy but he's finished the season quite poorly, Duffy seems to be the forgotten man of Irish rugby.

Basically, there's loads of things that could happen to change who starts 15 in the WC, but luckily we've enough time (maybe not matches though) to figure it out.

Cpt_Blackbeard

val_jester wrote: »

Thats a load of rubbish. The longer he has been away the worse his form gets. He was actually playing well before injury. As for the Lions tour if you could actually remember the games you'll realise that although SA kicked a lot of ball, Kearney ran the majority of it back, sometimes he takes the wrong options in attack and defence but to say he can't pass or tackle is ridiculous.

There is a difference between Kearney and Murphy in that they have had one injury and been out for half a year. Flannery has had a number of comeback attempts which have all resulted in re-injurying himself. The difference with Ferris is that Ferris is one of the best players in the world in his position, Flannery is not.

I didn't say that he can't pass, I don't know much about his passing game as he refuses to pass or offload when it would be the better option. He is a poor tackler as he often refuses to commit to the tackle. Earls' try against Leinster in '09 is a good example (Its the first example that comes to mind). A 15 has to be fully commited to every tackle as they are often the last line of defense.

The statement in bold is just not true. Flannery at his best was one of the best hookers in the world, however we don't know if he can get back to level as he has been constantly injuring himself. Ferris isn't guaranteed to start for Ireland anyway, as it would result in moving SOB to 7 where he isn't half as effective as he is at 6.

Deleted User wrote: »

not one of our full backs available has done this.

I completely agree, which is why they should all be given an equal opportunity in the warmups.

Stev_o

Kearney just isn't consistent enough at times to make people appreciate him.

A bit like Murphy i guess.

Anyway i remember last year home in the HC against the Scarlets where the first thing he did was drop the ball. The second thing he did was beat everyone on the pitch and score a cracking try. Got another great one aswell.

When he plays at that 90% of his potential he is absolutely deadly but when he's in the slumps he's quite poor.

sock puppet

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The statement in bold is just not true. Flannery at his best was one of the best hookers in the world, however we don't know if he can get back to level as he has been constantly injuring himself. Ferris isn't guaranteed to start for Ireland anyway, as it would result in moving SOB to 7 where he isn't half as effective as he is at 6.

Ferris and O'Brien have never played together iirc. So even if you think McLaughlin-O'Brien-Heaslip don't work well together that's no reason to think that Ferris-O'Brien-Heaslip wouldn't.

val_jester

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed, and I think I'd like to see the Earls experiment again at 15, even though he's been sensational at 11 in the 6N. Back 3 of Bowe Earls Trimble could be so dangerous.

Also, because Earls' kicking game is weak, and his running game is a serious strength, we'd enjoy the games much more!

However, I think that "Proof" that Jones is capable (6 games?) is still missing, Kearney and Murphy both have to prove fitness before they can prove ability, I like D'Arcy but he's finished the season quite poorly, Duffy seems to be the forgotten man of Irish rugby.

Basically, there's loads of things that could happen to change who starts 15 in the WC, but luckily we've enough time (maybe not matches though) to figure it out.

He's been like that all season, moments of magic followed by sheer stupidity.

I don't think Earls' kicking game is that weak, its just a bit inconsistent and obviously compared to Kearney it's weak but thats nearly a good thing with the gameplan being tried out. I'd love to see 12 bod 13 bowe 11 trimble 14 horgan 15 earls line up for one of the warm ups, even just for half i think it could be quite good and it would allow us to have bowe and horgan in the same team

If we had a Ferris-SOB-Heaslip backrow playing at their best form, we could sneak Jennings and Wallace into the second row instead, we'd avoid scrums at all costs, but boy would we play fun rugby to watch.

It'd be like "the Bash Brothers" in The Mighty Ducks.

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Regardless of his form before his injury, or his post-lions hangover, he is the best Irish full back and will be on the plane. That's the discussion here.

I'd personally have him on the plane if he can prove himself in the warmups but, I don't think that he should be given all 4 games to reach form. If he cannot find form within ~2.5 games and Jones still looks solid, I'd bring Jones.

I'd love to have Kearney and Earls alternating at 15 in a horses for courses approach but I feel that Jones is the perfect middleground to Earls attacking play and Kearney solidarity at the basics of a 15.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Deleted User wrote: »

I like D'Arcy but he's finished the season quite poorly.

First season of professional rugby, he has run out of steam since he isn't used to the physical demands. I'm not sure he is able to step to international class without some more professional experience

val_jester

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I didn't say that he can't pass, I don't know much about his passing game as he refuses to pass or offload when it would be the better option. He is a poor tackler as he often refuses to commit to the tackle. Earls' try against Leinster in '09 is a good example (Its the first example that comes to mind). A 15 has to be fully commited to every tackle as they are often the last line of defense.

That is one example and its the only one I can think of. His passing game is fine sometimes he chooses not to pass when he should have but everyone makes mistakes.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The statement in bold is just not true. Flannery at his best was one of the best hookers in the world, however we don't know if he can get back to level as he has been constantly injuring himself. Ferris isn't guaranteed to start for Ireland anyway, as it would result in moving SOB to 7 where he isn't half as effective as he is at 6.

If fez is fit he starts, its that simple. Sob and him will be fine. There is no talking to you about Fla so im not going to go over it again.

Gelio

Deleted User wrote: »

If we had a Ferris-SOB-Heaslip backrow playing at their best form, we could sneak Jennings and Wallace into the second row instead, we'd avoid scrums at all costs, but boy would we play fun rugby to watch.

It'd be like "the Bash Brothers" in The Mighty Ducks.

I honestly think that could be a way to go in the future. I really think having jennings in the second row would be more useful to Leinster than the likes of Toner.

val_jester

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

First season of professional rugby, he has run out of steam since he isn't used to the physical demands. I'm not sure he is able to step to international class without some more professional experience

Payne has been signed as 1st choice full back for ulster next year and I'd like to see Gaston/Gilroy as 2nd choice by the end of the year.

GerM

If only Kearney had gas or the ability to defend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZV2QPGjlzQ

CatFromHue

jolley123 wrote: »

haha Oh my, the stuff being written about Kearney on here.

He's a poor passer. He's very slow for a full-back. He is a poor tackler. He's a poor attacker.

How on earth did he ever make it onto a rugby pitch!?

he is a poor passer. he rarely passes the ball, he usually takes it into contact even if a player is in a better position.

in defence he tends to jump on people or swing out of them. im not sure if ive ever seen him perform a textbook tackle.

there are things he is the best in the world at but he is not the perfect player.....yet!

edit ger the link below is the other side of his defence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhS1kgZMyzo

val_jester

GerM wrote: »

If only Kearney had gas or the ability to defend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZV2QPGjlzQ

Clearly a photoshop allied with the way the light was shining made it look more impressive than it is.


edit: Just looking at that video again, god the commentary is awful, saying he was caught out of postion, when
he was clearly where he should be for the Irish attack before they managed to knock it on.

jolley123

CatFromHue wrote: »

he is a poor passer. he rarely passes the ball, he usually takes it into contact even if a player is in a better position.

in defence he tends to jump on people or swing out of them. im not sure if ive ever seen him perform a textbook tackle.

there are things he is the best in the world at but he is not the perfect player.....yet!

Saying he rarely passes the ball does not mean he's a poor passer. If he was a poor passer he would be passing forward balls or putting too much or too little weight on the pass. I agree that he's steered away from his attacking instinct and seems to have a poor awareness of where the space is. He does seem to run into contact a lot.

I think a lot of those swinging tackles appear so because, as a full-back he's running at the players laterally rather than head-on, so most missed tackles would appear in that fashion. However, it must also be remembered that as the last line of defense, not only does he have a lot of defensive pressure on his shoulders, but any missed tackles are going to be highlighted above any other player on the pitch.

By no means is he the perfect player.

IMO, he would do well under the Schmidt regime; as I think under Cheika he resorted to the up and under too often. As a backs coach I'm sure Schmidt would be able to coach him to attack the space and create for others. Kearney is very fast and very elusive. Much like Fitz, he's very talented but his talents are going to waste by simple errors. Simple tweaks to his game can change that, and I hope those tweaks are made.

By no means am I claiming he deserves to board the plane, but comments like "he's very slow" and "he's a poor passer" and "he's a poor tackler" are unjust statements.

The only thing missing in Kearney's game is his spacial awareness and his tackling technique. the latter could do with improvement, but I would not classify it as poor.

endabob1

totallegend wrote: »

Maybe Kearney isn't going to South Africa after all, the Stormers are denying it:
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/rugby/article1082817.ece/WP-playing-it-close-to-their-chest

Given that the Stormers are topping the SA pool and would be likely to be involved in the playoffs I can see the rationale, the boks will start asking for players to be rested at some point and the 2 current options are regular bok squad members, Jantjes & Aplon.
Kearney also had a great Lions tour and there was rumours after that about one of the SA teams talking to him with a view to coming over, it'd be great for him if it did happen, Super 15 is a very high standard at the top level, there are a few weak sides but the top 8 are packed with sanzar internationals.

That said there are a few bok players they would like back to get a closer look at, Steyn, Pienaar & Hougaard so it's more likely imo that one of those will be picked up on a short term deal.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

edit ger the link below is the other side of his defence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhS1kgZMyzo

Wow I've never seen that video before.

If he can't stop Rocky Elsom from 2 yards then he clearly is a pathetic defender :rolleyes:

Rob Kearney was being called the best 15 in the Northern Hemisphere in the 2009 6 Nations and after the Lions tour he was being called the best in the world.

GerM

CatFromHue wrote: »

edit ger the link below is the other side of his defence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhS1kgZMyzo

Ah, I'm well aware CFH. Kearney isn't a world class defender but he's not a bad defender. My video was in response to other claims that were clearly frivolous. Mainly, I wanted to highlight that Kearney isn't slow despite what some may think. Kearney is far from slow, just doesn't have lightning acceleration.

On another note, Dave Kearney made some absolutely smashing tackles against Ulster last week. Got across to the breaking player at full pace on a few occasions and wrapped them and brought them to ground in text book fashion.

TheHighRoad

GerM wrote: »

If only Kearney had gas or the ability to defend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZV2QPGjlzQ

What on earth are you doing letting facts get in the way of an argument with Cpt Blackbeard? Didn't you know that Kearney is too slow for full back, can't pass, is a poor defender and can't attack?

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If he can't stop Rocky Elsom from 2 yards then he clearly is a pathetic defender :rolleyes:

nice roll eyes smilie! now look at what kearney does. he shoulder charges elsom, he didnt tackle him. this highlights what i was talking about.

kearney is still standing when elsom is touching the ball down. thats not a position i want my full back to be in when a guy has just ran past/through him to score.

people have mentioned his attempted tackle on juan smith in nov. its a good clip of his pace but to me it also highlights his poor tackling technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8tu6-GvK2g

i think jolley summed up better was i was trying to say regarding his passing. spatial awareness is a better term.

dont get me wrong i think he is a good player but like luke fitz's overrunning of passes there are a few areas of his game that drive me mad.

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It doesn't really matter that much that Kearney hasn't played in so long. Murphy has been in full training for a few weeks now.

There are 106 days between now and our 9/11 clash against the Americans. In that time, every player in the squad has the same number of games to prove their fitness and form, apart from Munster/Leinster/Leicester players... they have 1 extra.

After Saturday, every player will have 2 months off. Form will go out the window. Playing fitness will as well. By the time the team walk out onto the pitch for the first test against Scotland it will have been more than 2 months since each of them last played. The team will be picked on training performances, and both Kearney and Murphy will be (and are now) fully fit when that training starts.

Unless both Murphy and Kearney pick up another injury between now and September I severely doubt Duffy or Jones will feature. Even if Murphy or Kearney are unable to travel/play I think Fitzgerald/Earls will be trusted as extra full back cover.

God I hope not. He's pretty tragic there this season. Couldn't catch a cold. He needs a proper break to recoup his form.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I guess we'll see what Murphy's up to in August. Fingers crossed. He's the best Irish full back of all time. We could really do with him in top form.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I actually said that he's the best Irish full back we've ever seen. Not the best full back Ireland have ever had... which are two quite different things.

Things would have been different for him if he'd had a run in the Irish team that didn't involve him being played at 11. That never happened though, mostly thanks to EOS. Dempsey was a class act though so no real complaints about that.

" Fingers crossed. He's the best Irish full back of all time. We could really do with him in top form."

He certainly isn't though he is good and of course has played in the professional era. Tom Kiernan, Hugo MacNeill, Tony Ensor, (Mike Gibson towrds the end of his career),Rodney O'Donnell, Girvan Dempsey were all better.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

First season of professional rugby, he has run out of steam since he isn't used to the physical demands. I'm not sure he is able to step to international class without some more professional experience

D'Arcy has played eight and a half months of professional rugby with no pre-season training and was rather thrown in at the deep end. He came here as a part time player from Manly Marlins.

He has ability and pace and though we haven't seen it, he is apparently a dead eye goal kicker. He has plenty of room for improvement but has been a revelation at times and undroppable. He has made one or two big mistakes but those mistakes need to be put it in a bit of perspective. The good he has done far, far outweighs his errors and he has scored 5 tries in 24 games. This could easily have been 10 or more given a bit of luck. It isn't totally beyond the realms of possibility that he might actually become very good indeed as an I.Q. 15. He is in need of putting on a few kilos of muscle as he is 6'0" tall but only 13st. 4lbs.

Payne will play 15 and at times at 13 so we may see less of him or see him on the wing. We do have plenty of wings though with guys like Gilroy and Cochrane and Gaston (who is also a full back, is very, very quick indeed and built like a tank) never mind Trimble and Danielli.

Anyway, that's for the future. As for a 15 for the RWC, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Jones and Kearney were on the 'plane. (Let's hope it keep[s the 15 jersey away from Fitz if he is selected). It is stretching things a bit to say that Rob Kearney was having a good season. He wasn't. Not a bad one but definitely not his most irresistible best. He looked off the pace a bit at times. His failure to pass the ball to supporting players after making good breaks, which then come to nothing as he goes to ground, is a massive failing on his part.