Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Teferi

CatFromHue wrote: »

No, you're not!

Alot of the so called humour is embarrassing.

I find the Kidney clock frankly cringe worthy.

We're supposedly all adults here but that's how children act.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds this Kidney (and ROG better than international class) stuff embarrassingly pathetic?

Ah get over yourselves lads.

The Kidney Clock is making humour out a completely dire situation and the ROG comments poke gentle humour at a ridiculous statement. No harm in either of them.

Personally I find nasty, bitter little nicknames like Houdini embarrassingly pathetic.

jamiedav2011

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds this Kidney (and ROG better than international class) stuff embarrassingly pathetic?

Didn't you once whinge about Heaslip wearing the wrong colour boots?!

CIARAN_BOYLE

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Didn't you once whinge about Heaslip wearing the wrong colour boots?!

Wasn't it the wrong colour scrum cap

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

His defence seemed to playing on his mind alot.

As it should have, it wasn't good enough. Girv was ultimately the better full back.

chupacabra

I made that kidney clock thing without any malice or ill will intended. It was just a humorous idea and wasn't born out of any intent to **** all over what Declan Kidney has done for Irish rugby. Its the people who love to point out how "pathetic" and how "embarrassing" it is that give it those connotations in the first place. Lighten the feck up will ye?

jm08

GerM wrote: »

It's interesting but does it actually tell us anything we didn't already know? EOS himself admitted that he had his preferred side that he settled on and those guys were the ones he would be using. EOS certainly seems to have had some major shortcomings in terms of man management but I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for Murphy from that extract. Seems to be wallowing in self pity a bit.

Its an extract from a book - you'd need to read the rest of it to state that he wallows in self-pity.

If you're an international full back, you're going to be roasted if you get skinned by a hooker. You shouldn't be expecting your coach to come out and defend you for that. I don't recall if EOS addressed it at all publicly but ROG made an offhand comment about it not being good enough in the RTE documentary. That's how it's viewed and no surprise.

Your coach saying publicly you are only 2nd choice isn't going to inspire a lot of confidence. In the newspaper they had two panels with his opinion on ROG and Martin Johnson. Seems to have massive respect for both. He said he reckoned ROG would play until he was 41!

Reading the full extract, he comes across as a nervous enough fellow with a level of self doubt. Many agreed that he wasn't the best option for the jersey and the extract seems to be an opportunity to have a pop. Glad to read the honesty but it's a bit of a mountain out of molehill considering he got the guts of 50 starts for Ireland under EOS and went on a Lions tour where EOS was the second in command.

Playing for Leicester (which I'd imagine was a demanding place) he seemed to have no self-doubt - and don't forget his captain was Martin Johnson who wouldn't be known to suffer fools gladly.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

As it should have, it wasn't good enough. Girv was ultimately the better full back.

Girv was a bit underated, but Geordan was the one who got selected for the Lions Tour under Woodward despite not being first choice for Ireland.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

Its an extract from a book - you'd need to read the rest of it to state that he wallows in self-pity.

Your coach saying publicly you are only 2nd choice isn't going to inspire a lot of confidence.

Playing for Leicester (which I'd imagine was a demanding place) he seemed to have no self-doubt - and don't forget his captain was Martin Johnson who wouldn't be known to suffer fools gladly.

He's either feeling sorry for himself or trying to make something out of nothing to sell copies regardless of it being only an extract or not. 46 starts under EOS. A Lions tour where EOS was second in command including a test start (where he had a shocker defensively again), 15 starts at full back in a row at one point. He has no reason to complain. EOS didn't come out and defend him and publicly admitted he was second choice. Poor man management undoubtedly but it was nothing but true. Murphy was second choice and that was based on his own failings defensively which a lot of people accepted and agreed upon.

As we've often said before, there's a big difference between club/province and international levels. Murphy would shine a lot more at Leicester where he has God like status. He was exposed repeatedly at a higher level. MJ would have had little reason to take issue with him at a lower level where he was one of the most dangerous players of his generation.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

Girv was a bit underated, but Geordan was the one who got selected for the Lions Tour under Woodward despite not being first choice for Ireland.

Murphy was absolutely first choice for Ireland in 2005. He started every 6N game at full back. EOS was second in command on that tour and would have had significant input into selection.

thomond2006

GerM wrote: »

Murphy was absolutely first choice for Ireland in 2005. He started every 6N game at full back. EOS was second in command on that tour and would have had significant input into selection.

Didn't Dempsey play games on the wing and all?

jm08

GerM wrote: »

He's either feeling sorry for himself or trying to make something out of nothing to sell copies regardless of it being only an extract or not. 46 starts under EOS. A Lions tour where EOS was second in command including a test start (where he had a shocker defensively again), 15 starts at full back in a row at one point. He has no reason to complain. EOS didn't come out and defend him and publicly admitted he was second choice. Poor man management undoubtedly but it was nothing but true. Murphy was second choice and that was based on his own failings defensively which a lot of people accepted and agreed upon.

I doubt if GM would have had any input into what would be serialised - that would be up to the newspaper and his publisher who are obviously going to use what people are interested in.

And that was shocking man management. Even Alex ferguson stands by his team when they get public criticism when they probably deserve it. Its no wonder Eddie can't get a coaching job.

Anthony Foley had a few digs at Eddie and no one said anything about it (one was when he was on the podium when Munster won the Heineken Cup and in his memoir he recounted about going from captaining Ireland to being dropped from the match day squad with a text message from Eddie).

As we've often said before, there's a big difference between club/province and international levels. Murphy would shine a lot more at Leicester where he has God like status. He was exposed repeatedly at a higher level. MJ would have had little reason to take issue with him at a lower level where he was one of the most dangerous players of his generation.

Yep, fair play to Eddie - Geordan Murphy could be a confident fullback with Leicester, a club that is famously into not molly coddling their players and when Geordan is in Ireland he fulfils Eddie's expectations of him - and misses a couple of tackles.

Pretty much all of the current internationals have missed important tackles, but I haven't heard anyone come out and castigate them and say we'd be better if Tommy Bowe/brian O'driscoll etc. was playing. Kearney's defence wouldn't be the greatest - but at least he isn't terrified into making even more mistakes.

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

Didn't Dempsey play games on the wing and all?

He did. Think Shaggy was injured. (Just checked - he seems to have been missing from mid-dec to mid-feb with Leinster).

Girvan was starting on the wing for Ireland instead of Shane Horgan (who also made that tour).

totallegend

jm08 wrote: »

Your coach saying publicly you are only 2nd choice isn't going to inspire a lot of confidence. In the newspaper they had two panels with his opinion on ROG and Martin Johnson. Seems to have massive respect for both. He said he reckoned ROG would play until he was 41!

He said that ROG wants to play until he was 41, not quite the same...

On Murphy, I'm glad that we're getting to hear a bit more about what happened in the last days of Eddie's reign; I suppose it's no surprise that Murphy doesn't have the most positive slant on it so it might be more instructive to hear what one of the "untouchables" of 2007 has to say on it.

Regarding Murphy's selection/non-selection over the years, it's a myth that he was hard done by (and the chief myth-peddler is Thornley); he got plenty of caps, plenty of starts at full-back but he was pretty calamity-prone. The France games in 2006 and 2007 were inexcusable IMO, and in a back line with D'Arcy, O'Driscoll and Hickie, there was no shortage of attacking flair that would have justified the risks attached to Murphy playing.

GerM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Didn't Dempsey play games on the wing and all?

A number of times although originally it was Dempsey at 15 and Murphy on the wing. In 2005, Murphy became the nailed on full back and Dempsey moved to the wing to accommodate him. Murphy only lost the spot after a long run in the side which was brought on by his performance against NZ which he mentions in the extract. He says that he had a disagreement with EOS in the video analysis was the catalyst. He fails to mention he was basically muck in the NZ game. He missed tackles, turned over possession and had little or no impact going forward. That's why he was dropped.

Podge_irl

Murphy against France in 2006 was one of the worst personal performances that I have ever seen from a pro player.

His defence was no better for Leicester - it was just exposed less as its a lower level.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

Yep, fair play to Eddie - Geordan Murphy could be a confident fullback with Leicester, a club that is famously into not molly coddling their players and when Geordan is in Ireland he fulfils Eddie's expectations of him - and misses a couple of tackles.

Pretty much all of the current internationals have missed important tackles, but I haven't heard anyone come out and castigate them and say we'd be better if Tommy Bowe/brian O'driscoll etc. was playing. Kearney's defence wouldn't be the greatest - but at least he isn't terrified into making even more mistakes.

It wasn't a few tackles and saying that suggests how little you recall of Murphy's international career. Take a look back through comments on various fora and you'll see how people felt about his presence in the team from 2005 - 2008. Some people seem to recall Murphy's Irish displays with rose tinted glasses inexplicably. After he broke his leg he never replicated his Leicester form for Ireland.

There was much more than missed tackles. He was turned over regularly. He gave the ball away with erratic passes and aimless kicking. He was attacked mercilessly. He was very poor in that game against NZ and was hammered widely after the first test. The criticism from David Kelly of Murphy was so strong that it contributed to the players and EOS refusing to speak to Kelly. In 2006 6N, he was destroyed in Paris, skinned for tries and threw an intercept try too in one of the single worst performances by an Irish player; that game was the beginning of the end of his stint as first choice. In 2007, he missed on Ibanez. In 2008, Clerc scored a hat trick on his wing. For the Lions, he was walked through for a try in a test. There were basic errors in almost every single game aside from those obvious ones. No other Irish player had such a litany of errors to their name over a similar period of time.

After his leg break, his impact as an attacking threat (what he was lauded for) was reduced hugely. He scored more tried in his first two years for Ireland than he did in the next 8. In his last 55 caps he scored 8 tries. Take away his attacking threat and there wasn't much of a decision to make.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

It wasn't a few tackles and saying that suggests how little you recall of Murphy's international career. Take a look back through comments on various fora and you'll see how people felt about his presence in the team from 2005 - 2008. Some people seem to recall Murphy's Irish displays with rose tinted glasses inexplicably. After he broke his leg he never replicated his Leicester form for Ireland.

My point is not that he missed tackles - its the fact that the coach blamed him for them. Most coaches will refer to it as a system failure and not single anyone out.

There was much more than missed tackles. He was turned over regularly. He gave the ball away with erratic passes and aimless kicking. He was attacked mercilessly. He was very poor in that game against NZ and was hammered widely after the first test. The criticism from David Kelly of Murphy was so strong that it contributed to the players and EOS refusing to speak to Kelly. In 2006 6N, he was destroyed in Paris, skinned for tries and threw an intercept try too in one of the single worst performances by an Irish player; that game was the beginning of the end of his stint as first choice. In 2007, he missed on Ibanez. In 2008, Clerc scored a hat trick on his wing. For the Lions, he was walked through for a try in a test. There were basic errors in almost every single game aside from those obvious ones. No other Irish player had such a litany of errors to their name over a similar period of time.

After his leg break, his impact as an attacking threat (what he was lauded for) was reduced hugely. He scored more tried in his first two years for Ireland than he did in the next 8. In his last 55 caps he scored 8 tries. Take away his attacking threat and there wasn't much of a decision to make.

In other words, Eddie had turned him into a wreck with no confidence in his own ability. Eddie expected him to fail, so he did what was expected of him.

And just for the record, I would be a Girvan fan and deserved to be first choice. What I don't think Geordan deserved was to be publicly humiliated by the coach.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

In other words, Eddie had turned him into a wreck with no confidence in his own ability. Eddie expected him to fail, so he did what was expected of him.

EOS chose him for 15 games on the trot and brought him on a Lions tour. He gave him every opportunity he could. Once he made up his mind on Dempsey though, that was it and he had no issue saying it. Up until then, GM had the absolute backing of EOS. When Kelly penned that article after the first test in NZ, EOS refused to speak with Kelly and played GM for the 80 minutes in the second test where he promptly had another stinker. There was a breaking point.

I have no idea how anyone can form the opinion that EOS turned him into a wreck after showing ridiculous and misguided faith in him over a sustained period. He should have been dropped before he was.

Also, I never recall EOS criticising GM for any missed tackle. He was asked in a press conference about not selecting GM against France in 2007 and he said that France had not been happy hunting for GM in the past. I don't recall anything being said about a specific incident but am open to correction on that. If that constitutes being publicly humiliated, then we've some sensitive souls in Irish rugby. The off hand comment from a team mate in an RTE documentary would have been more cutting, I'd have thought.

danthefan

He was in incredible form for Ireland before he broke his leg too, real shame that happened, for him personally obviously and for the team.

theKramer

Some interesting articles by Brendan Fanning on his blog..
First one is about the IRFU and the second is about how Farrelly leaving the Indo will affect Kidney. Quite intersting reads, actually

What’s needed is a chill wind to blow out the old farts.

(Sunday Independent 19/8/12)

Has Fanning sold his soul to his enemy's paper!?

jm08

GerM wrote: »

I have no idea how anyone can form the opinion that EOS turned him into a wreck after showing ridiculous and misguided faith in him over a sustained period. He should have been dropped before he was.

When he did pick him he made comments on the selection to the effect that Girvan was first choice fullback and he was stuck with Murphy.

Not even a hard nut like Alex Ferguson would say something like that (because he knows he would affect the confidence of his player, not because he is a nice person).

Also, I never recall EOS criticising GM for any missed tackle. He was asked in a press conference about not selecting GM against France in 2007 and he said that France had not been happy hunting for GM in the past. I don't recall anything being said about a specific incident but am open to correction on that. If that constitutes being publicly humiliated, then we've some sensitive souls in Irish rugby. The off hand comment from a team mate in an RTE documentary would have been more cutting, I'd have thought.

Most coaches don't single out anyone for public criticism as its very much a team sport.

As for the O'Gara comment - he wasn't picking team & motivating them to go out and play well (Anyway, O'Gara is known for being outspoken and he gets criticised for it).

irishbucsfan

EOS made mistakes with Murphy. It was very clear watching him play in his what an absolute class act he was. One of the best natural back 3 players we will ever produce.

Just a real shame that he never showed it for Ireland. I don't believe for a second that had anything to do with his own ability level, just an unfortunate clash of characters.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

When he did pick him he made comments on the selection to the effect that Girvan was first choice fullback and he was stuck with Murphy.

Most coaches don't single out anyone for public criticism as its very much a team sport.

Your reasoning have no context at all. He made the comments about Dempsey being first choice full back long after Dempsey had established himself ahead of Murphy. I think it was the 2008 6N, long after EOS had dropped him as called for by the majority of the public and a section of the media. That was years after EOS selected him non stop for a couple of seasons and backed him despite heavy pressure. He gave him about 40 starts for Ireland before 2008 without any comment.

He didn't single Murphy out at all. He was asked a direct question about GM in a press conference (by Thornley, I believe). He answered it quite poorly but there was no singling out whatsoever. "I think historically Geordan's last two games haven't been a hunting ground for him." That's the "criticism". Quite tame considering what most of us actually thought of Murphy's showings against France earlier that year and in 2006.

Your all over the place with your reasoning and information here, jm.

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

As for the O'Gara comment - he wasn't picking team & motivating them to go out and play well (Anyway, O'Gara is known for being outspoken and he gets criticised for it).

I'd have more issue with an active member of a team publicly singling out another player on the team and criticizing them moreso than if the coach did it.

As much as we like the sensationalism that surrounds ROG your teammates are just that, teammates at the end of the day.

shuffol

Even in 2010 Murphy missed a shocker of a tackle on Beattie against Scotland in a game where Ireland were going for the triple crown, you cant blame EOS for that.

Fishooks12

Ya Murphy, for all his talent, tended to miss one or two big tackles every now and again

Still think he should have at least 20 caps more than he got though

Podge_irl

I think he should have had about 20 fewer. After he broke his legs he was never the same at international level. It wasn't just his tackling. He was poor going into contact and regularly made poor decisions. How many intercepts did he give away?

profitius

Murphy was good but error prone. Dempsey was easily the better player.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think he should have had about 20 fewer. After he broke his legs he was never the same at international level. It wasn't just his tackling. He was poor going into contact and regularly made poor decisions. How many intercepts did he give away?

He absolutely was the same player. He just never showed that at international level. That was his fault as much as it was EOS's and Kidney's.

The guy is seen by Leicester fans as one of their best ever players. That's an incredible compliment to pay to someone at any club, let alone a club of that stature. The difference between the games he was excelling at when he and Leicester were in their prime and the games he was looking poor for Ireland was very small. He just wasn't comfortable in the setup and seemed to flounder a bit. He was still one of the best players at one of the best teams that European rugby has seen, and I don't believe they were that far behind where we were at the time.

His attacking game was a great example of it. The Irish guys were so far behind in an attacking sense that he just couldn't get on their wavelength. I think it's still the case for some of our players, certainly Joe Schmidt believed it when he arrived.