Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Podge_irl

If Kidney doesn't know which young 10 to back he could bring in 2 of them and not bother having ROG there.

profitius

GerM wrote: »

Conversely, profitius (and I'm not trying to be inflammatory), we have ROG who is actively failing to prove himself in the big games. Despite his own assertion, he was poor last season. His biggest games were against Wales and Ulster where he struggled in both. His shortcomings in the HEC pool games were masked by two cracking drop goals but his contribution previous to those kicks was one of the major reasons they were needed.

It's quite likely that IK won't get an opportunity to prove himself in big games and the same can be said of IM. We don't have the pool of players to rule out two talented young outhalves.

I agree about ROG. I said the same about ROG after the drop goals. I think hes finished and I'd be more in favour of a 10 who threatens the line too as opposed the traditional type of 10.

I'm not worried about the squads mainly because I think Kidney will pick the same team anyway. The younger players are just as well off fully concentrating on their provincial teams (IMO) and it will also give up an extra season to see who improves.

It's good to see DOC2, Henderson and Marshall in there but as we all know they'll find it hard to get a game or make a squad. So apart from the personal boost of being called into the squad its not really going to help Ireland because the team is already picked.

RoundBox11

One thing that puzzles me (and i don't think anyone has mentioned it yet) is why there's only 4 props? Surely now that we'll be having 23 man squads we'd want at least 5 involved.

If any one of the 4 lads gets injured we'd have to call up somebody who's never been involved (most likely McGrath and *sigh* Archer). Seems a bit silly to me.

On the other hand, it is nice to see for the first time in as long as i can remember, all four props selected are genuinely good scrummagers. I'd have full confidence in Court alongside Fitzpatrick if they were needed.

Similarly to everyone else i've no idea why ROG has been selected. I don't think it's doing Madigans chances any good leaving him behind. He needs to get involved now before more time is wasted. Also, Leinster are probably the only province who can afford to lose their remaining FH for a while as Nacewa can step in.
Pretty pissed off that Toner still isn't being called up. I'd have him ahead of Macca, Tuohy and DOC.

Swiwi

RoundBox11 wrote: »

One thing that puzzles me (and i don't think anyone has mentioned it yet) is why there's only 4 props? Surely now that we'll be having 23 man squads we'd want at least 5 involved.

If any one of the 4 lads gets injured we'd have to call up somebody who's never been involved (most likely McGrath and *sigh* Archer). Seems a bit silly to me.

On the other hand, it is nice to see for the first time in as long as i can remember, all four props selected are genuinely good scrummagers. I'd have full confidence in Court alongside Fitzpatrick if they were needed.

Similarly to everyone else i've no idea why ROG has been selected. I don't think it's doing Madigans chances any good leaving him behind. He needs to get involved now before more time is wasted. Also, Leinster are probably the only province who can afford to lose their remaining FH for a while as Nacewa can step in.
Pretty pissed off that Toner still isn't being called up. I'd have him ahead of Macca, Tuohy and DOC.

After Ire v Eng in the 6N, it will take a very good game for me to have full confidence in Court. I know he was playing tighthead, and he's a loosie, but those scrums were very painful to watch...especially as it was England.

irishbucsfan

Swiwi wrote: »

After Ire v Eng in the 6N, it will take a very good game for me to have full confidence in Court. I know he was playing tighthead, and he's a loosie, but those scrums were very painful to watch...especially as it was England.

If you know he was playing TH and he's a loosie, then why are you remembering it at all?!

Lelantos

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Swiwi wrote: »

After Ire v Eng in the 6N, it will take a very good game for me to have full confidence in Court. I know he was playing tighthead, and he's a loosie, but those scrums were very painful to watch...especially as it was England.

If you know he was playing TH and he's a loosie, then why are you remembering it at all?!

Because it was a nitemare?

Podge_irl

If Healy played at tight head it would be embarrassing. It wouldn't mean he was no longer one of the best loose heads in the world. Court was asked to cover both sides from the bench because he was the only one remotely capable of doing it. It was never envisioned that he would spend 60 mins at TH.

Hagz

I'm looking forward to the 23 man squads. It's about time.

Oh Declan, you crazy.

I am going to adopt this approach to the national squad for a bit



Far easier than dealing with your obvious disconnect from these three words

"Modern" "Rugby" "Development"

Can't deal with
' Ah the lads gave it a go'
anymore!

Decccccccccccccie

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If you know he was playing TH and he's a loosie, then why are you remembering it at all?!

Because it wasn't pretty at all. And I note he played tighthead for Ulster prior to his switch to LH, so it's not as if he was a novice at TH. If Kidney knew he was incapable of covering TH, then he should have had 2 specialist props on the bench, and sacrificed a back reserve.

Swiwi

Podge_irl wrote: »

If Healy played at tight head it would be embarrassing. It wouldn't mean he was no longer one of the best loose heads in the world. Court was asked to cover both sides from the bench because he was the only one remotely capable of doing it. It was never envisioned that he would spend 60 mins at TH.

Healy is definitely world class, agree with you there. I expect to see him in a Lions shirt. Clearly, Court was not even remotely capable of covering both sides of the scrum, so either Kidney should have chosen someone else, put a LH & a TH on the reserves, or pleaded golden oldies when Ross got injured. In any case, the enlarged subs bench, if it comes in, will solve that problem for Ireland.

WeeBushy

Swiwi wrote: »

Healy is definitely world class, agree with you there. I expect to see him in a Lions shirt. Clearly, Court was not even remotely capable of covering both sides of the scrum, so either Kidney should have chosen someone else, put a LH & a TH on the reserves, or pleaded golden oldies when Ross got injured. In any case, the enlarged subs bench, if it comes in, will solve that problem for Ireland.

Kidney should have (if he could have), but he didn't. That still says nothing of Courts ability to scrummage at TH (which is fairly good), which was the original point.

Swiwi

WeeBushy wrote: »

Kidney should have (if he could have), but he didn't. That still says nothing of Courts ability to scrummage at TH (which is fairly good), which was the original point.

Well, getting back to my point, I would like to see evidence of same at international level before I would be confident. RoundBox11 said he would have full confidence in Court to play loosehead at international level, but for me - even though I acknowledge TH is not his position - he was so out of his depth, that I would want to see him have a decent 80 mins at LH against a good scrumming side (eg Arg, SA in November) before I would be so confident. There are plenty of examples of players who were perfectly fine, even excellent, at provincial level, but never cut it internationally. However, the way I phrased this seems to have been misinterpreted above.

desertcircus

I don't get the idea that using a naturalised player ahead of a native one is somehow bad. Either naturalisation is nonsense and naturalised players should never be picked, or naturalisation is legitimate and Strauss is exactly as Irish as Varley once he completes the process. There's no principled position that allows the use of the three-year rule but only if you're really desperate in that position.

shuffol

Funny enough Court actually put in a pretty good display at tighthead for 80 mins against New Zealand in 2010. Before the debacle in Twickenham I'd have regarded him as reasonably dependable TH cover, but for whatever reason he was totally incapable of dealing with how England scrummed that day.

molloyjh

desertcircus wrote: »

I don't get the idea that using a naturalised player ahead of a native one is somehow bad. Either naturalisation is nonsense and naturalised players should never be picked, or naturalisation is legitimate and Strauss is exactly as Irish as Varley once he completes the process. There's no principled position that allows the use of the three-year rule but only if you're really desperate in that position.

Sure Court was born in Brisbane and I'm not seeing any complaints about his selection. If a player has made this country his home then we should be happy to see them in the national squad. I would imagine most players who move do so with the view to playing international rugby. It's not the money but the lure of playing at that level. And I've no issue with that myself.

Benny Cake

molloyjh wrote: »

Sure Court was born in Brisbane and I'm not seeing any complaints about his selection. If a player has made this country his home then we should be happy to see them in the national squad. I would imagine most players who move do so with the view to playing international rugby. It's not the money but the lure of playing at that level. And I've no issue with that myself.

Personally, I've no issue with naturalised players lining out for Ireland. However, lets not delude ourselves, money is a huge motivation for project players coming to Ireland with a view to playing international rugby...

Money motivates all of us in our working lives, why would we expect it to be any different for professional athletes?

danthefan

Has everyone forgotten the England game in 2011? We won well but Ross got injured in the 2nd half and Court came on at TH. Our scrum went from being a weapon to being a complete liability. The warning signs were there long before Twickenham this year.

molloyjh

Benny Cake wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

Sure Court was born in Brisbane and I'm not seeing any complaints about his selection. If a player has made this country his home then we should be happy to see them in the national squad. I would imagine most players who move do so with the view to playing international rugby. It's not the money but the lure of playing at that level. And I've no issue with that myself.

Personally, I've no issue with naturalised players lining out for Ireland. However, lets not delude ourselves, money is a huge motivation for project players coming to Ireland with a view to playing international rugby...

Money motivates all of us in our working lives, why would we expect it to be any different for professional athletes?

I'm not saying money isn't a factor. I just reckon that for a lot the biggest factor is the opportunity to play international level. If I move job I don't do it for money alone, and money tends not to be the driving factor behind my choice of job. I want the right kind of job in the right kind of company. And I'd be willing to turn down more money for a better position assuming there isn't a huge different in the money stakes.

RoundBox11

It's totally irrelevant how Court is as a tighthead now because he won't have to play there again with the 23 man squads.
As i'm sure most of yee know i was referring to Court as a loosehead, where i personally think he is a good scrummager.

I think he's looked very good for Ulster this season so far too.

Still tho anybody know why we only have 4 props in the squad??

GerM

23 man squads is a trial for this autumn only. Don't be surprised to see everything back to where it was for the 6N.

totallegend

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Still tho anybody know why we only have 4 props in the squad??

There aren't any credible candidates at Munster that Kidney could parachute in ahead of better-qualified players at other provinces, so he decided to introduce nobody.

Don't worry, if Kilcoyne and Archer get a bit more gametime, they'll be in the squad asap.

Jesus but I'm sick of him.

Lelantos

totallegend wrote: »

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Still tho anybody know why we only have 4 props in the squad??

There aren't any credible candidates at Munster that Kidney could parachute in ahead of better-qualified players at other provinces, so he decided to introduce nobody.

Don't worry, if Kilcoyne and Archer get a bit more gametime, they'll be in the squad asap.

Jesus but I'm sick of him.

A nice fruity red whine never goes amiss

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

There aren't any credible candidates at Munster that Kidney could parachute in ahead of better-qualified players at other provinces, so he decided to introduce nobody.

Don't worry, if Kilcoyne and Archer get a bit more gametime, they'll be in the squad asap.

Jesus but I'm sick of him.

Just reminded me of Archer getting picked for the wolfhounds last season :pac:

Clegg

Ireland are short on good tightheads. What not select Tagdh Furlong for this training camp. I know he hasn't played for Leinster yet but he's shown a lot of potential in his appearances for the Under 20s.

I'm not saying he should seriously consider him for the AIs or the 6 Nations. I just think he should bring him into the camp so he can measure his progress.

totallegend

Lelantos wrote: »

A nice fruity red whine never goes amiss

That wasn't meant to be anti-Munster, just anti-Kidney.

He made such a song and dance about our lack of props after Twickenham, so what's he doing about it? Hagan, Loughney, Wilkinson, Macklin, McGrath, Furlong, Kilcoyne, surely one of them could benefit from this.

Fishooks12

Clegg wrote: »

Ireland are short on good tightheads. What not select Tagdh Furlong for this training camp. I know he hasn't played for Leinster yet but he's shown a lot of potential in his appearances for the Under 20s.

I'm not saying he should seriously consider him for the AIs or the 6 Nations. I just think he should bring him into the camp so he can measure his progress.

Plenty of TH's ahead of him that have played for their provinces and have plenty of potential too. Would be a joke if he got called up before them tbh

jamiedav2011

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Plenty of TH's ahead of him that have played for their provinces and have plenty of potential too. Would be a joke if he got called up before them tbh

Iain Henderson?

irishbucsfan

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Iain Henderson?

Iain Henderson played well in a match against Munster, so Declan has heard of him

Clegg

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Plenty of TH's ahead of him that have played for their provinces and have plenty of potential too. Would be a joke if he got called up before them tbh

How would it be a joke? Furlong is rated as one of the best talents the Leinster academy has seen in years. And if you're good enough, you're old enough.

I never said that other options should be ignored either. I just can't see the harm in including someone like Furlong. He's recovering from shoulder surgery though so this training camp was probably too seen for him.