Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

profitius

GerM wrote: »

Why would we call up a bloke who is on the verge of turning 32 and will never be international class? Downey has consistently done a certain job at a certain level. That has never equated to being international class. Luke Marshall is the right call.

If we play Wales we might need him. He would nullify their midfield power advantage. He isn't a long term prospect but D'Arcy isn't the player he was either.

.ak

I like Downey's one dimensional aspect, but I agree he should've been brought into the squad 2 or 3 years ago when he was on the radar.

jacothelad

Swiwi wrote: »

Because it wasn't pretty at all. And I note he played tighthead for Ulster prior to his switch to LH, so it's not as if he was a novice at TH. If Kidney knew he was incapable of covering TH, then he should have had 2 specialist props on the bench, and sacrificed a back reserve.

Court was becoming a very good tight head, winning plaudits and was m.o.t.m in quite a few games. He stopped playing there in 2007 when B.J. Botha arrived and moved over to l.h. and began the learning process again. Up to 2007 Court was playing alongside Ulster and sometimes Ireland skipper and tight head Simon Best who was a good player bizarrely used mainly at loose head for Ireland.

Swiwi wrote: »

Well, getting back to my point, I would like to see evidence of same at international level before I would be confident. RoundBox11 said he would have full confidence in Court to play loosehead at international level, but for me - even though I acknowledge TH is not his position - he was so out of his depth, that I would want to see him have a decent 80 mins at LH against a good scrumming side (eg Arg, SA in November) before I would be so confident. There are plenty of examples of players who were perfectly fine, even excellent, at provincial level, but never cut it internationally. However, the way I phrased this seems to have been misinterpreted above.

In terms of that day against England, Corbisiero was allowed to scrummage illegally with total impunity by Owens. He simply drove in at right angles and stood up. It was exactly what Tendai Mtawawira did to the Lions in the first test in '09. Illegal and dangerous then and illegal and dangerous in 2012. If you want to see Court scrummaging successfully against a good tight head I recommend watching last weeks Ulster v. Munster game.

profitius wrote: »

If we play Wales we might need him. He would nullify their midfield power advantage. He isn't a long term prospect but D'Arcy isn't the player he was either.

The trouble with that is it condemns Ireland to a bash it up the middle game, destroying any opportunity to get a wide game going. ...and what happens if they just run the ball wide anyway and bypass our 12.

GerM

profitius wrote: »

If we play Wales we might need him. He would nullify their midfield power advantage. He isn't a long term prospect but D'Arcy isn't the player he was either.

I'd genuinely prefer seeing Luke Marshall in the jersey against Wales. Make an investment in him now and prepare him for next year. Give him 80 minutes against Fiji and go from there. He's a ferociously strong guy and doesn't lack power or bulk. At over 15 stone and the hands of an outhalf, he's someone that has an all round game for the spot.

Whilst Downey is great defensively in terms of the collisions and making hits, his positioning and line speed aren't particularly impressive.

Fishooks12

I think Downey warranted a call up. Plus it's a little unfair to say he's not international class when he has never been given the chance to show if he is or not. Who's to say if his admittedly limited but effective game wouldn't work in test match rugby

Now given his age it would probably be counter productive bringing him in at this stage, but at the same time it wouldn't bother me to see him start

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I think Downey warranted a call up. Plus it's a little unfair to say he's not international class when he has never been given the chance to show if he is or not. Who's to say if his admittedly limited but effective game wouldn't work in test match rugby

Now given his age it would probably be counter productive bringing him in at this stage, but at the same time it wouldn't bother me to see him start

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. It would bother me hugely to bring in a guy in his thirties who has been a weak point in HEC games in the past. He was shown up badly against Llanelli last season and we saw how he did when faced with the Welsh back line as they turned him inside out and his own handling let him down badly. The same happened in the HEC final against Leinster. He has generally struggled against the top HEC back lines. I don't fancy seeing it happen at international level. It just makes little sense to me when we've a hugely promising option coming through that has looked like a potential international for some time.

profitius

GerM, I'd have Downey and Marshall ahead of D'Arcy. I mentioned Downey last year too before he signed for Munster so its not a Munster thing.

I can see your point of view though and would have no complaints at seeing Marshall being developed.

Theres also the option of Sexton playing at 10/12 with Madigan. They could share responsibility.

jacothelad wrote: »

The trouble with that is it condemns Ireland to a bash it up the middle game, destroying any opportunity to get a wide game going. ...and what happens if they just run the ball wide anyway and bypass our 12.

Depends on how they use him. Munster are playing some good attacking rugby with him in the side.

The opposition won't have the option of bashing it up the middle against us.

irishbucsfan

Downey isn't selected for the same reason he hasn't been selected his whole career. He's not up to it.

tolosenc

profitius wrote: »

Theres also the option of Sexton playing at 10/12 with Madigan. They could share responsibility.

No.

Sexton is a 10. One of the best in the game at the moment. The only reason he ever plays 12 is so that Deccie can massage ROG's ego, and the latter 2 shouldn't have anything to do with the international set up in this country.

GerM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Downey isn't selected for the same reason he hasn't been selected his whole career. He's not up to it.

Solid, dependable, does certain things excellently and that's where it ends, as far as I can see, and I've followed him since the AIL for Tarf. There's a good reason he was let go by Leinster and Connacht and he had to go to Italy to get some rugby. David Quinlan was the man that would have been a far more potent weapon in the same role.

Cpt_Blackbeard

GerM wrote: »

Solid, dependable, does certain things excellently and that's where it ends, as far as I can see, and I've followed him since the AIL for Tarf. There's a good reason he was let go by Leinster and Connacht and he had to go to Italy to get some rugby. David Quinlan was the man that would have been a far more potent weapon in the same role.

That's more than can be said for Darce in an Ireland shirt for a number of years now.

CatFromHue

The 12 jersey has been a bit of a problem for Ireland for a season or two now. After what happened, unfairly, to Wallace in NZ I can't see him being given another shot. D'arcy is and will more than likely always be ahead of McFadden for both Leinster and Ireland so why not bring in Luke Marshall. It's only a training camp after all.

Benny Cake

If it was a straight choice between Darcy and Downey I'd have Downey, Darcy has been poor for quite a while now... However, I would prefer to see Marshall get some gametime as he clearly has a bright future ahead of him.

totallegend

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

That's more than can be said for Darce in an Ireland shirt for a number of years now.

Give it a rest. Did you watch the summer tests? The difference D'Arcy made in the second test was obvious even to the most blinkered observer. Downey is not fit to lace his boots, that's the reality of it.

Cpt_Blackbeard

totallegend wrote: »

Give it a rest. Did you watch the summer tests? The difference D'Arcy made in the second test was obvious even to the most blinkered observer. Downey is not fit to lace his boots, that's the reality of it.

The second test was also the only one where BOD wasn't poor. The only thing that has saved Darce is his partnership with BOD.

totallegend

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The second test was also the only one where BOD wasn't poor. The only thing that has saved Darce is his partnership with BOD.

OK, you've finally lost it. I'm out.

tolosenc

Surely it would make most sense for McFadden to play 12?

Cpt_Blackbeard

tolosenc wrote: »

Surely it would make most sense for McFadden to play 12?

He'll have to get ahead of D'Arcy for Leinster first, which doesn't look like happening anytime soon. His performances in an Irish shirt haven't inspired much confidence either.

Podge_irl

From the looks of things McFadden may well be Leinster's starting 11 for the first half of the season. I think Marshall is the best bet going forward and I'd be of the opinion that throwing him in now is the way to do it.

shuffol

I think it would be ridiculous if we were in a position where D'arcy is still starting in the AI's, he was awful in last years 6N and had the look of a player who's time has passed. Be it Luke Marshall or Mcfadden somebody has to come in. I mean what was the last 12 months of crap results for if we're still no further on in sorting out a position thats been an obvious problem for years.

GerM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

That's more than can be said for Darce in an Ireland shirt for a number of years now.

And probably more than can be said for Downey at anything above AP and Pro12. C'est la vie. Darce still performs much better at HEC standard than Downey which is the highest level they both compete at. Neither should be near the 12 jersey for Ireland in the future.

RoundBox11

In one sense it's pointless argueing that Downey would be better than D'Arcy at 12 for Ireland because we've no idea whether Downey would be capable of playing at international level. But on the other hand it's not too fair to just say he's not when he hasn't been given a chance. That ship has sailed tho imo.

I'd love to see what Sexton and Luke Marshall could do together in 2 years time. With a new backs coach...

profitius

totallegend wrote: »

Give it a rest. Did you watch the summer tests? The difference D'Arcy made in the second test was obvious even to the most blinkered observer. Downey is not fit to lace his boots, that's the reality of it.

What about all the poor performances? Personally I'd have Marshall or Downey ahead of him for the 6 nations. I'm a fan of D'Arcy but hes well past his best.

I'd rather have solid and dependable Downey in there so at least teams wouldn't be able to walk through the Irish midfield.

Leifimi Mafi was a similar type of player to D'Arcy and Downey has been an improvement on him.

leftleg

profitius wrote: »

totallegend wrote: »

Give it a rest. Did you watch the summer tests? The difference D'Arcy made in the second test was obvious even to the most blinkered observer. Downey is not fit to lace his boots, that's the reality of it.

Leifimi Mafi was a similar type of player to D'Arcy and Downey has been an improvement on him.

Sorry I don't see any resemblance between those players.

GerM

profitius wrote: »

I'd rather have solid and dependable Downey in there so at least teams wouldn't be able to walk through the Irish midfield.

Don't understand the logic. Downey had struggled at HEC level against these international players. The Welsh players for Llanelli cruised past him last year. Leinster and D'Arcy tore him apart the year before.

Strangely, there was never any significant clamour from people for Downey to be starting in the Irish team before this season.

profitius

GerM wrote: »

Don't understand the logic. Downey had struggled at HEC level against these international players. The Welsh players for Llanelli cruised past him last year. Leinster and D'Arcy tore him apart the year before.

Strangely, there was never any significant clamour from people for Downey to be starting in the Irish team before this season.

Leinster are far better than Northampton and ran rings around the whole Northampton team in the final. Its unfair to single Downey out. Jamie Roberts has done nothing of note for Cardiff Blues but is a good international center when used right.

Downey over D'Arcy is a horses for courses selection from me. Irelands backs are not the biggest so in a tight call go with the bigger man I'd say. Also, with Kidney in charge they play a basic brand of rugby. They might as well pick the bigger, more solid player. The mismatch in size against Wales was always asking for trouble. Just one or two more solid players could have changed the game.

As I said earlier, I mentioned Downey playing for Ireland before he signed for Munster.

irishbucsfan

Downey is nowhere near as good defensively as D'Arcy. Not even close. One of the reason the Saints dropped him originally.

It's not even a close run thing. D'Arcy is far better. However I'd like to see Marshall get the chance Paddy Wallace didn't to put him under a bit of pressure.

Deano7788

profitius wrote: »

Leinster are far better than Northampton and ran rings around the whole Northampton team in the final. Its unfair to single Downey out. Jamie Roberts has done nothing of note for Cardiff Blues but is a good international center when used right.

Downey over D'Arcy is a horses for courses selection from me. Irelands backs are not the biggest so in a tight call go with the bigger man I'd say. Also, with Kidney in charge they play a basic brand of rugby. They might as well pick the bigger, more solid player. The mismatch in size against Wales was always asking for trouble. Just one or two more solid players could have changed the game.

As I said earlier, I mentioned Downey playing for Ireland before he signed for Munster.

I'd say it was the standing off in defence that was asking for trouble, rather than just size difference alone.

Cpt_Blackbeard

GerM wrote: »

Don't understand the logic. Downey had struggled at HEC level against these international players. The Welsh players for Llanelli cruised past him last year. Leinster and D'Arcy tore him apart the year before.

Strangely, there was never any significant clamour from people for Downey to be starting in the Irish team before this season.

In fairness, that isn't even remotely true. A quick search showed posts calling for his inclusion in the Irish squad going as far back as 2009, and a whole thread asking as to why he is being ignored was posted in 2010. You'll see even more calls for his inclusion on other forums.

Teferi

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

In fairness, that isn't even remotely true. A quick search showed posts calling for his inclusion in the Irish squad going as far back as 2009, and a whole thread asking as to why he is being ignored was posted in 2010. You'll see even more calls for his inclusion on other forums.

Funnily enough you didn't call for his selection until after he signed for Munster although you did call him "ageing" a few months before that.