Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Tox56

D'Arcy was awful in the 6 Nations, but he came back to Leinster and was excellent, and then in his only Irish game since that he put in a great performance against the All Blacks. It's obviously a position we don't have many promising young players in, and Downey is only a year younger so he wouldn't exactly be one for the future, so I really don't see the point in introducing him now, same with Wallace. However, if D'Arcy plays like a drain again, of course he should be replaced.

Benny Cake

Tox56 wrote: »

However, if D'Arcy plays like a drain again, of course he should be replaced.

Why do we have to wait for him to play crap for Ireland again? Haven't we seen enough at this stage?

irishbucsfan

Benny Cake wrote: »

Why do we have to wait for him to play crap for Ireland again? Haven't we seen enough at this stage?

He was very good in his last game, so maybe not.

I think it should be between himself and Wallace until a younger guy puts his hand up.

Tox56

Benny Cake wrote: »

Why do we have to wait for him to play crap for Ireland again? Haven't we seen enough at this stage?

D'Arcy was one of the best players on the field v the All Blacks last time out. If a 25 year old had put that performance in (combined with his provincial form) there would be no selection dilemna.

thomond2006

I'd give Downey a run, I don't think he's a player that will disimprovely hugely with age. His game doesn't primarily rely on pace.

I'm concerned about the AIs, Argentina are no pushover on the basis of their performances in the Rugby Championship. However most of their players play in the Top14 and while they have to be released by their clubs if requested for the Autumn tests, you'd wonder if quietly some of the Argies have been told to excuse themselves from duty so they can hold onto their club contract. Just a thought...

Hagz

Benny Cake wrote: »

Why do we have to wait for him to play crap for Ireland again? Haven't we seen enough at this stage?

Because Declan Kidney is our coach that's why. I think we're going to give Donncha O'Callaghan about 7-8 more games to see if he can regain form....

I'd imagine we'll see D'Arcy play most of the 6 nation games unless Kidney decides to see BOD at 12 and Earls at 13. O'Callaghan was played in 3 6nations games last year despite there being a much better option in the form Donnacha Ryan. In D'Arcy's case, there isn't a "much" better option. There are "alternatives" but I doubt Kidney will want to know much about them.

In my opinion, Downey's not the answer. Given his age, and the one dimensional game-style he has, I see no benefit in investing any time in him. Therefore I think these AI should be used to look at the likes of Marshall, McSharry and co., and if one of them steps up, then we'll have a fresh 12 for the 6 nations. If none of them step up, then we'll have to play it safe with D'Arcy for one last time.

GerM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'd give Downey a run, I don't think he's a player that will disimprove hugely with age

Even if he was able to maintain his current level for a decade, I wouldn't want him near the team. The last 18 months has shown his level and it is far from international. He has not performed well against any serious back line but has been shown up by several. He missed 3 tackles against Ulster last week who had the only half decent back line he has faced this season.

GerM

profitius wrote: »

Leinster are far better than Northampton and ran rings around the whole Northampton team in the final. Its unfair to single Downey out. Jamie Roberts has done nothing of note for Cardiff Blues but is a good international center when used right.

 The mismatch in size against Wales was always asking for trouble. Just one or two more solid players could have changed the game. .

I think it is reasonable to single him out when he missed a couple of tackles, Leinster poured through midfield and he was hauled off.

The Welsh backline point doesn't hold as Downey had a very poor game against most of that backline when he faced Llanelli.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Teferi wrote: »

Funnily enough you didn't call for his selection until after he signed for Munster although you did call him "ageing" a few months before that.

Funnily enough you'll find that I was touting him for selection ahead of D'Arcy from around the same time as the Leinster-Northampton HEC final, but I'm sure your search of my posting history showed up those results. Try harder!

Cpt_Blackbeard

Tox56 wrote: »

D'Arcy was one of the best players on the field v the All Blacks last time out. If a 25 year old had put that performance in (combined with his provincial form) there would be no selection dilemna.

Any decent performance by D'Arcy in an Irish shirt earns him plaudits, because it is so much better than the rest of the middling performances he has put in in recent years.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Any decent performance by D'Arcy in an Irish shirt earns him plaudits, because it is so much better than the rest of the middling performances he has put in in recent years.

Maybe, but also (rather crucially) it is the most recent game he's played.

GerM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

In fairness, that isn't even remotely true. A quick search showed posts calling for his inclusion in the Irish squad going as far back as 2009, and a whole thread asking as to why he is being ignored was posted in 2010. You'll see even more calls for his inclusion on other forums.

No, you'll find a thread with a couple of people saying he might be worth a look but the definite majority saying he is not international class. In fact, there are posts there from people who say he's not up to scratch and are now saying he should be included. Thanks for highlighting that.

profitius

GerM wrote: »

I think it is reasonable to single him out when he missed a couple of tackles, Leinster poured through midfield and he was hauled off.

The Welsh backline point doesn't hold as Downey had a very poor game against most of that backline when he faced Llanelli.

What about all the tackles D'Arcy has missed?

I think D'Arcy has been average at best for a few seasons now at international level. You'd think he was Sonny Bill Williams judging some of the comments on here. No offense to D'Arcy who is a play I admire but like ROG, his time is up. We have alternatives and they should be given a go.

irishbucsfan

profitius wrote: »

What about all the tackles D'Arcy has missed?

I think D'Arcy has been average at best for a few seasons now at international level. You'd think he was Sonny Bill Williams judging some of the comments on here. No offense to D'Arcy who is a play I admire but like ROG, his time is up. We have alternatives and they should be given a go.

D'Arcy is as good defensively as any 12 in the world.

Foxtrol

Cpt is it not a tad bit hypocritical of you to be harping on about wanting Earls to play 13 for Munster in the big games instead of Laulala due to potential long term benefits for the team while now also wanting Downey to be brought into the Irish set up to the detriment of chances for much younger and potentially much better players?

Cpt_Blackbeard

Foxtrol wrote: »

Cpt is it not a tad bit hypocritical of you to be harping on about wanting Earls to play 13 for Munster in the big games instead of Laulala due to potential long term benefits for the team while now also wanting Downey to be brought into the Irish set up to the detriment of chances for much younger and potentially much better players?

I want him included ahead of the D'Arcy. I'd like to see both him and Marshall included, but I feel that Downey would be great to steady the ship and offer some go-forward until a new 12 is ready to step up.

We need to gravitate away from the fraying BOD-Darce comfortblanket.

Teferi

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Funnily enough you'll find that I was touting him for selection ahead of D'Arcy from around the same time as the Leinster-Northampton HEC final, but I'm sure your search of my posting history showed up those results. Try harder!

You made one post in the Leinster V Northampton thread about touting Downey for selection. I assume you touted him for selection because you were so blinded by rage that Leinster had won the second of their 3 Heineken Cups.

11 months ago (this is after the HC final btw...)

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

other than the ageing Downey there are no obvious options. I think that McFadden will be too far down the pecking order when he gets back to Leinster so, my two picks would be Fitzgerald or Spence;

So there you go, you decided that there were better options than Downey until he signed for Munster.

1 year, 5 months ago

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

We need a centre and will definitely be signing a centre (or 2?). I think we need a proven creative player like Conrad Smith. We've all seen how Mafi played with Tipoki so maybe Smith might bring the best out in him. But we'll probably just get Downey.

You've only said truly positive things about Downey since he signed for Munster, you were only calling for him to start ahead of Darce before that because you hate Leinster. It really is that simple.

Foxtrol

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I want him included ahead of the D'Arcy. I'd like to see both him and Marshall included, but I feel that Downey would be great to steady the ship and offer some go-forward until a new 12 is ready to step up.

We need to gravitate away from the fraying BOD-Darce comfortblanket.

By bringing in someone who is practically the same age as Darcy? Isn't that the exact same kicking the can issue that you've been railing against as far as the Munster 13 selection goes?

If you're going to make a change you might as well bring in a young player as none of the candidates have shown that they are currently better than Darcy.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Teferi wrote: »

You made one post in the Leinster V Northampton thread about touting Downey for selection. I assume you touted him for selection because you were so blinded by rage that Leinster had won the second of their 3 Heineken Cups. 11 months ago (this is after the HC final btw...)

So there you go, you decided that there were better options than Downey until he signed for Munster.

Cop onto yourself lad. You've only said truly positive things about Downey since he signed for Munster, you were only calling for him to start ahead of Darce before that because you hate Leinster. It really is that simple.

I'm sure you've also seen me put forward Downey as a solution to our problems in the Scotland V Ireland match thread before the WC. The post in which I label Downey as ageing, I also call him an obvious option to provide some ballast and go forward from out midfield. Neither of the other two possible candidates I mentioned are available for selection for differing reasons.

I don't think many posters were enthused with the signing of Downey. When you have your eyes set on a superstar NIQ 12, the signing of a 13 and the effective Downey is a bit of a let down. That does not mean that isn't capable of bridging a gap for Ireland though.

I think I'll bow away from your hostility before the mods get involved. If you wish to take this to PM in a calm reasonable matter, feel free. Cheers.

Foxtrol wrote: »

By bringing in someone who is practically the same age as Darcy? Isn't that the exact same kicking the can issue that you've been railing against as far as the Munster 13 selection goes?

If you're going to make a change you might as well bring in a young player as none of the candidates have shown that they are currently better than Darcy.

Downey is no more of a long-term option that D'Arcy is, but could bring some freshness and size to our centre partnership. Were BOD ready and willing to step inside to 12, I'd see no issue with Downey being excluded, but I don't see that happening. Ideally BOD would partner Earls (substitute Cave as needed) in the centre and once Earls is established, we could go about bedding in a young 12 like Marshall.

Downey's inclusion would also suit the Kidney tactic of giving it to our biggest player to run at the defense. His inclusion in midfield would free up one of Ferris/SOB/Heaslip to concentrate more on rucking etc.

The Munster 13 issue is different as Earls and Laulala are both of a similar standard. Marshall has yet to really get a sustained run for Ulster and he is likely to be dropped once Wallace is back available.

CatFromHue

I don't think size is a problem D'arcy suffers from. He's played against alot of bigger centres and it could be argued that only the RWC QF against Wales did he suffer. Our defensive tactics were poor against Wales in the first 6 Nations game which gave them an extra advantage I think.

I'm not sure what the best route here as we've Downey, D'arcy, and more than likely Wallace as first choice 12's for the main provinces. I'd imagine Wallace will come back as first choice as he will help Jackson an awful lot on the field. It would be a fairly ballsy move from Anscombe to field both Jackson and Luke Marshall at 10 and 12. Just looking at the Connacht team sheets and they've used Fifita and McSharry at 12 so far this season. There is an opportunity here for a young Connacht player to put himself in a good position. Is Griffin still injured?

I think our centres for this season will be D'arcy and BOD. I think the boat has gone now, unfairly, for Wallace and the other alternatives aren't as good as D'arcy. Even though attack wise he's been poor for Ireland for a while now. It has to said that he's been at fault for a couple of high profile bloopers in defence too.

Podge_irl

For all of D'Arcy's problems at international level, he was still better then Downey at HEC level last season so I see no reason to think Downey will somehow step up to be a better option for Ireland. He wasn't good enough at Northampton and he isn't now. He is marginally better then Marshall now, but the latter has far, far more potential and if anyone other then D'Arcy should be put in now then it is him.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Podge_irl wrote: »

For all of D'Arcy's problems at international level, he was still better then Downey at HEC level last season so I see no reason to think Downey will somehow step up to be a better option for Ireland. He wasn't good enough at Northampton and he isn't now. He is marginally better then Marshall now, but the latter has far, far more potential and if anyone other then D'Arcy should be put in now then it is him.

I'm straddling the fence with Downey. I want to know if he is good enough, but I don't want to see gametime wasted on someone his age to find out. I'd prefer to see him included ahead of D'Arcy for more important games though . He is more suited to our lack of an attacking gameplan and any change is change for the better at this stage.

If Kidney will revise the BOD-Earls centre pairing with Marshall/whoever on the bench, I think it would be the best and easiest way to go forward. Depending on how the game is going, Marshall's inclusion could be a straight swap for BOD, or a winger could be taken off and Earls shifted outside.

Swiwi

I absolutely rubbished Darcy before test 2 v the ABs, but he surprised me with his defence which kept SBW quiet. He still doesn't appear to offer a lot on attack these days, but defence can be the best form of attack. Clearly there needs to be a succession plan, but to drop him you would need someone clearly playing better defensively & offensively. I have watched no Pro-12 this season so I can't really suggest any names, except I don't think McFadden is quite good enough for international midfield duties, as much as I think he is a good player, and comes across as a decent bloke.

D'Arcy has a lot of miles on his clock at this stage. He is starting to ship niggly hits and knocks too.

With a coach that realises that we don't have to play the same 23 every single week, and an eye on more than just the next game, we could potentially see some movement about, testing combinations like Wallace and Earls, Marshall and Cave or BOD and Griffin.

Unfortunately, we're all arguing exactly as Declan sees the issue. "Who is the best 12 today, and can he help me win tomorrow's game?".

The answer is D'Arcy, then Wallace then Downey, and probably Fergus McFadden, Luke Marshall and guys like McSharry and Tonetti after that.

However, if you're asking who would be the player that a coach should be most excited about trying to fit into the team, trying to find space for him now, trying to help with his development etc then none of the first three named should be included in the list.

Different questions, different answers. I think Kidney has proved how being a coach with the first mindset is pretty obviously wrong.

GerM

profitius wrote: »

What about all the tackles D'Arcy has missed?

I think D'Arcy has been average at best for a few seasons now at international level. You'd think he was Sonny Bill Williams judging some of the comments on here. No offense to D'Arcy who is a play I admire but like ROG, his time is up. We have alternatives and they should be given a go.

I purposely haven't mentioned D'Arcy as I think Downey should be looked at as a potential international on his own merits. I don't want it to be Darce good, Downey bad or vice versa. It should be neither of them. D'Arcy is winding down, Downey never got there to begin with.

Timothy Bryce

Heard last night that Madigan will be called into the squad as ROG is injured.

snow mad

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

Heard last night that Madigan will be called into the squad as ROG is injured.

great if true

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately, we're all arguing exactly as Declan sees the issue. "Who is the best 12 today, and can he help me win tomorrow's game?".

Yep, pretty much. Most of us here are looking for Ireland to be successful in the future but Kidney will be looking for a new contract. Since that contract depends on short-term results, we can't expect much in the way of long-term planning.

Hopefully some of the younger guys can show him that the two are not mutually exclusive, but they have to be given the chance.

With a round of interpros and then two HC matches with everyone back in harness, there should be plenty of opportunity for guys to stake their claims. I just hope DK is watching.

Teferi

Where will Kidney stand at the end of the November internationals if we perform badly as surely we must? At that stage the IRFU would have to consider buying out the rest of his contract and installing a real coach, right?

Timothy Bryce

snow mad wrote: »

great if true

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/27203.php

Following the weekend action involving the Irish provinces in the RaboDirect Pro12, there have been several additions to the Ireland training squad meeting up in Carton house this week.

Gordon D'Arcy took a knock to his ribs and is unable to train, with uncapped Munster centre James Downey called up to replace him.
Outhalf Ronan O'Gara has a dead leg and is also unable to train, so the uncapped Leinster back Ian Madigan joins the squad.

Scrumhalf Paul Marshall comes into the squad in place of Eoin Reddan who was unable to play at the weekend due to a leg injury.

Prop Ronan Loughney comes into the squad in place of Declan Fitzpatrick, who is continuing rehab on a knee injury in Ulster.

Second row Mike McCarthy picked up a calf knock and is replaced by Leinster second row Devin Toner.

The final change is Simon Zebo, who turned an ankle and is unable to train. Craig Gilroy replaces him in the training squad.

Link.