Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Kilkenny14

danthefan wrote: »

60-0.

We've been struggling badly to attack or defend. The sooner Kidney goes and we get a proper backs coach the better.

For me, Einstein's quote on the definition of insanity being repeating the same process over and over again and expecting different results springs to mind on no Irish backs coach again...

totallegend

Does all this make a compelling case for the creation of a Director of rugby post? To let the coach do the coaching and let someone else worry about backroom staff, dealing with the provinces etc?

At the moment, who is Kidney reporting to? To whom is he accountable for the repeated hassles of the team? Is it an IRFU committee? That's no longer appropriate for the pro era.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

How in Gods name can the IRFU let this happen? You'd swear they didn't give a monkeys about how the national side does.

As long as they're putting bums on seats they don't.

GerM

leftleg wrote: »

"Titles are titles. I've had this structure in Munster where we've won before, guys doing defence also did the backs with me and then we had a collective wisdom along with that.
"I'll run the shop and it will be the way I want it to run. I wouldn't envisage any changes .

Fortunately, nothing has changed since 2008 and that time in Munster. South Africa are still RWC champions playing an all crushing, kick it away game. Munster are HEC champs dominating teams with their one out attacking and 10 man rugby and Leinster are ML holders after completely moving to a forward game and scoring less tries than they have for years.

That quote is ridiculous and it definitely looks like DK is on the back foot and feeling the heat. I genuinely cannot believe he advocates his time at Munster as an example of success with a back line. The Riddler has finally lost it.

Quint2010

.ak wrote: »

As long as they're putting bums on seats they don't.

But are they? The AI tickets have gone on public sale six weeks before the matches take place-some for as little as 20 euro.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

At the moment, who is Kidney reporting to? To whom is he accountable for the repeated hassles of the team? Is it an IRFU committee? That's no longer appropriate for the pro era.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/7412.php

IRFU Director of Rugby Eddie Wigglesworth talks about the competitiveness of the Magners League and the importance of the Heineken Cup to Irish rugby, the standing of Irish rugby in a global sense and the 'aspirations' for the senior team of winning the Six Nations title and reaching a Rugby World Cup semi-final. Click here to listen to the interview in full.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

Fortunately, nothing has changed since 2008 and that time in Munster. South Africa are still RWC champions playing an all crushing, kick it away game. Munster are HEC champs dominating teams with their one out attacking and 10 man rugby and Leinster are ML holders after completely moving to a forward game and scoring less tries than they have for years.

That quote is ridiculous and it definitely looks like DK is on the back foot and feeling the heat. I genuinely cannot believe he advocates his time at Munster as an example of success with a back line. The Riddler has finally lost it.

My reading of that comment is that you frequently have coaches double jobbing on defence / attack. For example, Schmidt is the attack & defence coach for Leinster, Tony McGahan used to be the defence and attack coach. I don't think Munster have named a defence coach now. I think Ulster have a defence coach, but they don't have a scrum coach.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

My reading of that comment is that you frequently have coaches double jobbing on defence / attack. For example, Schmidt is the attack & defence coach for Leinster, Tony McGahan used to be the defence and attack coach. I don't think Munster have named a defence coach now. I think Ulster have a defence coach, but they don't have a scrum coach.

yeah but none of them have the "wisdom" that Kidney has

jm08

leftleg wrote: »

yeah but none of them have the "wisdom" that Kidney has

The "collective wisdom" is what you get if you are doing both jobs and not just being concerned with one aspect.

For example with a very dominant defence coach, your attack might be pretty poor. You can see for instance Shaun Edwards influence on how the Welsh team now play - completely different to the Welsh Way of previous generations.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

My reading of that comment is that you frequently have coaches double jobbing on defence / attack. For example, Schmidt is the attack & defence coach for Leinster, Tony McGahan used to be the defence and attack coach. I don't think Munster have named a defence coach now. I think Ulster have a defence coach, but they don't have a scrum coach.

Yes but he's clearly advocating it as a proven successful approach that he sees as transferable to the current national set up. My point was that rugby has evolved hugely in the last 4 years from the ELV borefest that suited a pack based game and a back line that were there to kick and tackle and now where there's far more innovation and a back line is used as the primary method of attack. It's madness using his experience at Munster 4-5 years ago as the reasoning why it will work for him now.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

Yes but he's clearly advocating it as a proven successful approach that he sees as transferable to the current national set up. My point was that rugby has evolved hugely in the last 4 years from the ELV borefest that suited a pack based game and a back line that were there to kick and tackle and now where there's far more innovation and a back line is used as the primary method of attack. It's madness using his experience at Munster 4-5 years ago as the reasoning why it will work for him now.

He is talking about a structure, not an approach. He says:
"I'll run the shop and it will be the way I want it to run. I wouldn't envisage any changes.*"

edit: *we're not hiring a backs coach.

molloyjh

Quint2010 wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

As long as they're putting bums on seats they don't.

But are they? The AI tickets have gone on public sale six weeks before the matches take place-some for as little as 20 euro.

Time will tell I suppose. I won't be there (unless I get freebies and have nothing else on). After the RWC warm-ups last year I decided it wasn't worth my money. Who'd pay to be utterly infuriated and depressed? Even the offer of freebies might not be enough....

.ak

Quint2010 wrote: »

But are they? The AI tickets have gone on public sale six weeks before the matches take place-some for as little as 20 euro.

True, but don't the IRFU make the bulk of the money on the home 6N fixtures? AFAIK they still make silly money there. Some would have you believe the vast majority of the IRFU's income comes from 6N related profit - including the cash flow from the branches.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

He is talking about a structure, not an approach. He says:
"I'll run the shop and it will be the way I want it to run. I wouldn't envisage any changes.*"

edit: *we're not hiring a backs coach.

Structure/approach. Purely semantics and goalpost moving as standard. It's a structural approach if that's more palatable for you and one that he cites as successful based on previous experience from a dead era for the game.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

Structure/approach. Purely semantics and goalpost moving as standard. It's a structural approach if that's more palatable for you and one that he cites as successful based on previous experience from a dead era for the game.

He could just as easily have used Leinster as an example who successfully use the same approach/structure to the hiring of staff (and not the style of play) which is what he is talking about.

Kidney emphasised that "he runs the shop" as he dismissed any proposals to add to his coaching staff, despite a suggestion from Sean O'Brien that Schmidt's involvement "could come naturally" for the Kiwi.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

He could just as easily have used Leinster as an example who successfully use the same approach/structure to the hiring of staff (and not the style of play) which is what he is talking about.

It works for Leinster, but do you think the current approach to hiring staff is working for Ireland?

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

It works for Leinster, but do you think the current approach to hiring staff is working for Ireland?

I don't know enough to see anything wrong with it. Ireland did have a separate Backs Coach and Ireland didn't play any better than they are doing now.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

He says:
"I'll run the shop and it will be the way I want it to run. I wouldn't envisage any changes.*"

---

google translate

"My way or the highway"

---

S'later Deccie

ScissorPaperRock

GerM wrote: »

Structure/approach. Purely semantics and goalpost moving as standard. It's a structural approach if that's more palatable for you and one that he cites as successful based on previous experience from a dead era for the game.

I think what jm08 is saying is that Kidney meant that he doesn't envisage any changes in the management/coaching structure and not that he doesn't envisage any changes in the approach to how games are played.

Though obviously there hasn't been much to suggest over the past few years that the current coaching setup has much to offer in the way of fresh ideas.

ionadnapokot

totallegend wrote: »

Does all this make a compelling case for the creation of a Director of rugby post? To let the coach do the coaching and let someone else worry about backroom staff, dealing with the provinces etc?

At the moment, who is Kidney reporting to? To whom is he accountable for the repeated hassles of the team? Is it an IRFU committee? That's no longer appropriate for the pro era.

I like the Idea of a Director of Rugby that would be properly empowered by the IRFU.

BOD revealing that the Irish team "need to get clarity on who the point of reference is for our attacking game" was a welcome insight for us fans.
It is surely only a scratch on the surface on what his true frustrations are with the inadequacies of the Kidney regime.
As Kidney is the head coach he will take the plaudits for what worked against Australia in the World Cup. A well thought out and well executed game plan. Every player new exactly what they were doing and went about it with a furiousness that shocked the saturated the Australians.
He must equally take the criticism for what failed against Wales in the same tournament. Ireland were out thought and out fought by a Welsh side. The players looked clueless in how to unlock the Welsh defence and how to stop their attack. It was one dimensional and Ireland looked rudderless.
Unfortunately that is exactly what Ireland have played like in the majority of games under Kidney and the lack of a specialised attack coach has only highlighted what has been an underlying malaise within the Irish team since the Slam.

The 60v0 humiliation is a bridge too far. I cannot see how this Ireland team with Kindney in charge and with less specialised coaches than before can somehow become 6 nation champions again.
I would argue that Ireland was standing on that metaphorical bridge during the World Cup before it collapsed under the team. We could have won that World Cup with a properly prepared team.
With the calibre of player Ireland have, its a downright disgrace to see the level of performance achieved.

IRFU, Management, Coaches, and the players themselves must realise the mistakes they have made since ’09. Do they know how to rectify the problems? I don’t think so and certainly not this season.

molloyjh

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I like the Idea of a Director of Rugby that would be properly empowered by the IRFU.

BOD revealing that the Irish team "need to get clarity on who the point of reference is for our attacking game" was a welcome insight for us fans.
It is surely only a scratch on the surface on what his true frustrations are with the inadequacies of the Kidney regime.
As Kidney is the head coach he will take the plaudits for what worked against Australia in the World Cup. A well thought out and well executed game plan. Every player new exactly what they were doing and went about it with a furiousness that shocked the saturated the Australians.
He must equally take the criticism for what failed against Wales in the same tournament. Ireland were out thought and out fought by a Welsh side. The players looked clueless in how to unlock the Welsh defence and how to stop their attack. It was one dimensional and Ireland looked rudderless.
Unfortunately that is exactly what Ireland have played like in the majority of games under Kidney and the lack of a specialised attack coach has only highlighted what has been an underlying malaise within the Irish team since the Slam.

The 60v0 humiliation is a bridge too far. I cannot see how this Ireland team with Kindney in charge and with less specialised coaches than before can somehow become 6 nation champions again.
I would argue that Ireland was standing on that metaphorical bridge during the World Cup before it collapsed under the team. We could have won that World Cup with a properly prepared team.
With the calibre of player Ireland have, its a downright disgrace to see the level of performance achieved.

IRFU, Management, Coaches, and the players themselves must realise the mistakes they have made since ’09. Do they know how to rectify the problems? I don’t think so and certainly not this season.

What frustrates me most about these interviews we've been reading is that it is again the players holding their hands up and saying they need to change. Yes the players bear some of the responsibility. But so do the coaches. There has been no acknowledgement from the coaches that they need to change. The only comment we've seen suggests they believe the opposite. There seems to be an environment in the Irish camp where the buck stops with the players. And that is wrong.

There are also slightly mixed messages coming from them too. Sexton suggests they are only small margins away from victories, citing the Wales and France games as examples where in fairness we didn't play very well. Then Drico talks about performances being the main thing and that performances drive results.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/weve-had-to-swallow-some-hard-truths-admits-sexton-3240512.html

Heroditas

jm08 wrote: »

I don't know enough to see anything wrong with it. Ireland did have a separate Backs Coach and Ireland didn't play any better than they are doing now.

Yes but the backs coach in question was Gaffney.
Some of the stuff that Ireland and Leinster produced with him was absolutely dire.

GerM

Heroditas wrote: »

Yes but the backs coach in question was Gaffney.
Some of the stuff that Ireland and Leinster produced with him was absolutely dire.

Did he have a significant input? The tactics and approach that we've seen over the past few years bore no resemblance to any of the standard Gaffney tactics. To be honest, I think he was past it and his ideas have had their day. However, all signs point to him being a spectator within the Irish set up over the past couple of years. The fact that the existing coaching team absorbed his role seems to confirm that they were already calling the shots.

totallegend

Reading in the Times today, Les Kiss is quoted as saying that the summer humiliations will have "ignited a bit of hunger" in the players.

Firstly, that line is right out the Declan Kidney phrasebook for why nothing should change, so are we getting to the point where all the coaches are of the one mind?
Secondly, does Kiss think it's acceptable for international rugby players to need to be on the end of a record-breaking defeat to find the hunger for the game? If a guy needs to be fired up to perform, doesn't that indicate his time is up?

I'm probably reading too much into it, but since dull clichés are all we ever get from this coaching ticket, we have to work with what's available.

Heroditas

GerM wrote: »

Did he have a significant input? The tactics and approach that we've seen over the past few years bore no resemblance to any of the standard Gaffney tactics. To be honest, I think he was past it and his ideas have had their day. However, all signs point to him being a spectator within the Irish set up over the past couple of years. The fact that the existing coaching team absorbed his role seems to confirm that they were already calling the shots.

Flat backlines shovelling the ball sideways like pass-the-parcel?
Certainly seemed to resemble what Gaffney had been doing for much of the last decade.
However, I always did wonder what he was up to with the Irish set-up. It seemed a strange appointment at the time.

totallegend

Quint2010 wrote: »

But are they? The AI tickets have gone on public sale six weeks before the matches take place-some for as little as 20 euro.

Interesting contrast here to the AIs in 2010; back then, a four-game package for SA, NZ, Argentina and Samoa was €340, nominally broken down as €100, €100, €90 and €50 (regardless of where in the ground you were sitting).

The IRFU were rightly lambasted for those prices back then, but still, the difference between then and now is striking; tickets for the SA game this year range from €20 - €65 and for Argentina they're €10 - €55.

As the success rate of the team has collapsed, the commercial value of these games has gone down with it. Obviously there are more factors at play (recession etc) but a winning team sells more tickets at a higher price than a losing one.

Something for the IRFU to consider maybe.

GerM

Heroditas wrote: »

Flat backlines shovelling the ball sideways like pass-the-parcel?
Certainly seemed to resemble what Gaffney had been doing for much of the last decade.

Aside from the large number of set play tries that were scored by back lines that he coached at Leinster and Saracems? How many times did we see that with Ireland? Our set play was to load the ball onto a heavy hitter (more often than not Ferris or SOB) in midfield, crash it up and go from there with little variation or use of width unless in the opposition 22. That's certainly not the way Gaffney has become known for coaching his back lines.

Heroditas

GerM wrote: »

Aside from the large number of set play tries that were scored by back lines that he coached at Leinster and Saracems? How many times did we see that with Ireland? Our set play was to load the ball onto a heavy hitter (more often than not Ferris or SOB) in midfield, crash it up and go from there with little variation or use of width unless in the opposition 22. That's certainly not the way Gaffney has become known for coaching his back lines.

With Leinster? The backlines played awful stuff under him. Absolutely atrocious.
I have difficulty remembering very many innovative set pieces under him.

danthefan

GerM wrote: »

Aside from the large number of set play tries that were scored by back lines that he coached at Leinster and Saracems? How many times did we see that with Ireland? Our set play was to load the ball onto a heavy hitter (more often than not Ferris or SOB) in midfield, crash it up and go from there with little variation or use of width unless in the opposition 22. That's certainly not the way Gaffney has become known for coaching his back lines.

In Gaffney's last season at Leinster the number of tries scored in the league was really low but there were actually plenty scored in the HEC, 19 in 6 games with 3 bonus points. Contrast with 27 tries in (I think) 18 ML games.

danthefan

Heroditas wrote: »

With Leinster? The backlines played awful stuff under him. Absolutely atrocious.
I have difficulty remembering very many innovative set pieces under him.