Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

totallegend · 26-05-2011 8:38am

Murphy was never the same player in attack after that leg break, but for me his greatest failing was always his weakness in defence. I still have nightmares about that missed tackle against France in 2007...

There's a bit of a myth out there that he never got a fair shake; he got plenty of opportunities but never really grasped any of them. Dempsey was the all-round better player, it's as simple as that.

Still, if he's fit (according to yesterday's Times, he will be) and Kearney isn't, he has to go to the RWC.

irishbucsfan · 26-05-2011 9:21am

totallegend wrote: »

There's a bit of a myth out there that he never got a fair shake; he got plenty of opportunities but never really grasped any of them. Dempsey was the all-round better player, it's as simple as that.

It's not a myth. He and O'Sullivan were barely talking by the time EOS left precisely because O'Sullivan kept selecting him out of position and never gave him a fair shot.

Podge_irl · 26-05-2011 12:34pm

myflipflops wrote: »

It's relevant to the player (not the 2011 squad selection) when you are dismissing a mans 69 cap international career with this:

You're right. I was possibly overly harsh. But the vast majority of his career was after that incident and he was a poor international fullback afterwards as far as I am concerned.

O'Sullivan kept selecting him out of position and never gave him a fair shot.

What would you consider a fair shot? He played every single game in the 05 and 06 6N at 15.

irishbucsfan · 26-05-2011 12:42pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

What would you consider a fair shot? He played every single game in the 05 and 06 6N at 15.

Must have been pretty good so. Especially considering his relationship with the coach.

GerM · 26-05-2011 1:31pm

Murphy is/was a hugely talented player but was prone to being exposed at the highest level, particularly in defence. It wasn't just for Ireland. He was badly caught out for the Lions and was made one or two defensive howlers for Leicester early this season. Gatland selected Dempsey ahead of Murphy at full back also so the EOS relationship angle doesn't entirely hold especially given that EOS was the one who gave Murphy the guts of 20 consecutive starts at 15. That ended when Murphy had a poor game and ROG was walked through defensively down in NZ in 2006 after which EOS reverted to the safer Dempsey for the next game to solidify the defence. He never got back into the team with any regularity after that.

Injury obviously robbed him of a chunk of his pace which was never the same after the leg break. With all that said, Dempsey was solid as a rock and, unless they're chasing the game, a coach will play the percentages and go with the safe bet which was Dempsey every time. Dempsey, whilst not as talented a footballer, was very quick himself (2nd fastest in Leinster behind Hickie back in the day) and had a decent nose for the try line (more international tries than Murphy but in 10 more caps).

Murphy could have been an all time great. For natural talent, there's few in his league but it's a different story at the top level and talent only means so much. It's a shame because he was one of the best players to watch in his generation.

totallegend · 26-05-2011 2:04pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Must have been pretty good so. Especially considering his relationship with the coach.

Whether Murphy got a fair go of things is highly subjective so we'll agree to disagree, but the argument that it was EOS holding a grudge sort of overlooks the fact that Kidney took over and installed Kearney as first-choice FB more or less straight away.

irishbucsfan · 26-05-2011 2:12pm

totallegend wrote: »

Whether Murphy got a fair go of things is highly subjective so we'll agree to disagree, but the argument that it was EOS holding a grudge sort of overlooks the fact that Kidney took over and installed Kearney as first-choice FB more or less straight away.

Murphy was probably more likely the one holding the grudge imo. It's not an argument, Murphy has said it himself. He even told EOS he didn't want to play for him.

And it was Michael Bradley who installed Kearney as first choice full back.

EDIT: This is getting a bit overplayed. My point was that if Murphy is fit he should be brought ahead of Jones or Duffy. I can see no reason not to.

Podge_irl · 26-05-2011 2:30pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

EDIT: This is getting a bit overplayed. My point was that if Murphy is fit he should be brought ahead of Jones or Duffy. I can see no reason not to.

He hasn't played in a long time and was a questionable full back last time he was fit.

totallegend · 26-05-2011 2:37pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

it was Michael Bradley who installed Kearney as first choice full back.

Correct; he only had two (three?) games in charge but Kearney was a revelation on that tour, the Aussies were raving about him. Next time I hear George Hook banging on about how Kearney can't counter-attack, I'm sending him a DVD of those matches.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

EDIT: This is getting a bit overplayed. My point was that if Murphy is fit he should be brought ahead of Jones or Duffy. I can see no reason not to.

Ah yeah, definitely. Even if Murphy is not the best full-back we've ever had, he's still better (or at least more proven) than Jones and Kidney just seems to have no time for Duffy. It's all about his fitness.

GerM · 29-05-2011 10:57am

So where do we go from here? Last night was the final opportunity for several players who are sitting in limbo to push themselves forward for a spot in the training camp and for the plane. I think DK will find it easier to justify a few selections now but they're not as clear cut as last night suggests.

Props: Hayes will be on the plane now I think. DK is a massive fan. He was alright last night but not great. Another referee would have whistled him off the park for his scrummaging. Dropped a couple of scrums and stood up in a few. However, the abiding memory will be a penalty try. If there's going to be a man to lose out it will be Buckley who is having surgery and is out for 7 weeks. His WC preparation will be sorely interrupted and with him off to Sale in the summer, it would make it an easier decision. I think Buckley should still definitely travel ahead of Hayes though if it comes down to a straight call. Neither great in the scrum but Buckley at least has a bit outside the scrums if he's coming on for 20 minutes.

Hooker: Flannery is back in contact training according to Ralph Keyes. Good news but the clock is ticking very quickly. Varley will probably be involved in the training camp as the replacement should he not make it. Varley was mediocre last night and isn't the required standard. Would love to see Sherry given a shot to stake his claim but it won't happen.

Lock/flanker: The shoot out last night went to Ryan. I think it's still going to come down to the warm up games between himself and McLaughlin though. If this is a selection DK is going to go with, it's probably the closest call in the squad right now; I couldn't nail my colours to the mast on this yet but I've a feeling it will be Ryan.

Flankers: Jennings has been hammering on the door but I don't think he'll get an answer which is borderline criminal in my opinion if it comes to pass. I really hope we don't take a glut of blindsides and no real openside again. Wallace, SOB, Ferris, McLaughlin/Ryan and Jennings would be a very nicely balanced selection with a variety of options. Leamy is just not at the required level anymore. He has fallen down the pecking order and loyalty should not play a part here.

Scrum half: I would think Reddan is the only nailed on player here. Murray's credentials are demanding recognition at this point and I think/hope that DK is going to reward his performances with a place in the training squad. Despite having incriminating photos of DK (one must assume) I think TOL could be out in the cold on this one. I just can't see any justification even in the mind of DK. It would be scandalous if he travelled and Murray or Boss was left at home. Select on form, not love child status please.

Back line: Felix Jones is going to be in the training squad and has a very good chance of making the final cut. DK is an admitted fan. Geordan Murphy at this point is out in the cold I think and won't be on the plane. He's one of the most talented players of his generation and the likelihood is that he'll only have made the 15 for one WC game in his life. Disappointing. McFadden did not make a big claim last night. I still don't particularly like him at inside centre to be honest. His hands have improved but they're still not very good. In the centre his distribution is poor still by international standards. Failed to take a pass last night out wide that would have seen him score in the corner probably. I'd bring him for his versatility but I don't think DK will. Seeing as he has been benching a lot, he has a lot to do to make the squad in the warm up games to force himself into DK's plans in reality. Paddy Wallace will probably travel but shouldn't at this stage and I have been a big fan of his in the past. Luke Fitz will travel I'm 99% sure despite the flak he takes lately. Still great in defence and his attacking game is beginning to come back. Class is permanent. Trimble will travel I reckon. Kearney will go if he shows anything in the warm up games.

So...with all that said here's my revised squad for the WC. This is what I think will be selected as opposed to what I would select:

Props: Healy, Ross, Hayes, Court
Hooker: Flannery, Best, Cronin (Varley)
Lock: POC, DOC, HEC winning captain and all round nice guy Leo Cullen
Lock/Flanker: Ryan
Flankers: Ferris, Wallace, SOB, Leamy
No. 8: Jamie Heaslip
Scrum Half: Eoin Reddan, Peter Stringer, Conor Murray
Outhalf: Sexton, ROG
Centres: BOD, Darce, Wallace
Wings: Earls, Trimble, Fitz, Bowe
Full back: Kearney, Jones

Stand by: McFadden, Jennings, McLaughlin, TOL, Buckley, Murphy, Varley.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 29-05-2011 11:29am

GerM wrote: »

Hooker: Flannery is back in contact training according to Ralph Keyes. Good news but the clock is ticking very quickly. Varley will probably be involved in the training camp as the replacement should he not make it. Varley was mediocre last night and isn't the required standard. Would love to see Sherry given a shot to stake his claim but it won't happen.

It could be very good for Munster in the long term if Varley went to the WC since it would give Sherry a run of games to seriously claim the #2 shirt for next season. I think if Varley goes to the WC he will come back to play second fiddle to Sherry.

roycon · 29-05-2011 1:10pm

good points there all round.i think mcfadden had a good game though apart from that dropped ball on the wing. tomas,reddan,murray would be my three scrumhalves in that order. time and time again i think its been proven that you need a physical scrum half. tol has done little wrong except for get injured

irishbucsfan · 29-05-2011 1:11pm

roycon wrote: »

tol has done little wrong except for get injured

And play absolutely shockingly poor rugby.

29-05-2011 1:12pm

TOL is actually very good at rugby, but he's a brutal scrum half. If he was 3 inches taller he'd be a centre.

I reckon the only reason he plays 9 is because he's short.

roycon · 29-05-2011 1:17pm

i think its just become fashionable to hate him for the last while. really cant see any reason why stringer should travel. id prefer boss to stringer. stringers been around for years and hes done his job but hes just very narrow minded in his decision making and doesnt offer anything but the pass

LostPassword · 29-05-2011 1:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

TOL is actually very good at rugby, but he's a brutal scrum half. If he was 3 inches taller he'd be a centre.

I reckon the only reason he plays 9 is because he's short.

He's taller than both our centres.

irishbucsfan · 29-05-2011 1:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

TOL is actually very good at rugby, but he's a brutal scrum half. If he was 3 inches taller he'd be a centre.

I reckon the only reason he plays 9 is because he's short.

He made his debut on the wing for Munster. I'd much prefer if they kept him there as a squad player.

When he plays SH he chokes the life out of the Irish team.

totallegend · 29-05-2011 7:26pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He made his debut on the wing for Munster. I'd much prefer if they kept him there as a squad player.

When he plays SH he chokes the life out of the Irish team.

I always think TOL is picked for what he might do rather than what he actually does. He might make a break and he might use his physicality around the fringes, fourth back rower etc. Once in a while this comes off and Ireland benefit.
What we need is a SH with accurate, snappy passing, good reading of the game and a decent kicking game. TOL has none of these qualities.

For me, Reddan is the only option at the moment but I'd like to see more of Murray.

profitius · 30-05-2011 3:41pm

Its been a good end of season for Donnacha Ryan, Jones and Murray. They have put their hands up for world cup spot. Donnacha Ryan and Murray should have been used more during the season though and not have to wait for other players to get injured or lose form.

PhatPiggins · 30-05-2011 4:06pm

profitius wrote: »

Its been a good end of season for Donnacha Ryan, Jones and Murray. They have put their hands up for world cup spot. Donnacha Ryan and Murray should have been used more during the season though and not have to wait for other players to get injured or lose form.

Murray definetely is a bolter for the WC. Ryan could have done with starting more games in the second row but has shown what he can do when given the chance, fair play. He really should move to another team though, he's going to get plenty of game time at 6 for Munster where he's useful but if he really wants to establish himself as an international its in the second row. It's a pity moving abroad is a death sentance for Irish internationals because there's no room for him in any team in Ireland bar Connacht (no offense Connacht).

That said he does seem to be a Kidney favourite so he could still be in the WC mix.

GerM · 30-05-2011 4:12pm

I think it's Ryan's spot to lose at this point in time. There's still a lot to play for in the warm up games but DK will be looking for a lock that can cover flanker as opposed to a flanker that can cover lock I think. He's already well covered in the blindside department so a player who can fit in at lock with minimum fuss. After his form in the last 3 weeks, I wouldn't begrudge him the spot although I would feel for Kev McLaughlin who has had a fairytale return following his horrific injury last season.

smurphy29 · 30-05-2011 4:18pm

Jennings, Donncha Ryan, Jones and Murray have all made a late charge. You could include John Hayes after the last two weeks also. So long as Jennings' arm heals on time he has a big chance, as he brings something different to our other backrows. Then again, Kidney has never been a fan...

Going backwards you have Leamy, Buckley and Boss, who missed his big chance to impress this weekend.

thomond2006 · 30-05-2011 4:49pm

I never rated Ryan but he has really made me look the fool. His form in the last month has been exceptional. Hayes has also returned to form and deserves to go to NZ.

FORWARDS (16)

Props: Healy, Court, Ross, Hayes

Hookers: Best, Cronin, Flannery/Varley

Locks: POC, DOC, Cullen, Ryan

Flankers: SOB, Wallace, Ferris/Jennings

8s: Heaslip

BACKS (14)

SHs: Reddan, Murray, Boss

OHs: Sexton, ROG

Centres: D'Arcy, BOD, McFadden

Wing/FB: Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Horgan, Fitzgerald, Kearney/Jones

SomeFool · 30-05-2011 4:54pm

You'll have to cut one of the backs Thomond as I reckon Paddy Wallace will travel as cover for 10/12. I like the look of it otherwise.

thomond2006 · 30-05-2011 5:04pm

SomeFool wrote: »

You'll have to cut one of the backs Thomond as I reckon Paddy Wallace will travel as cover for 10/12. I like the look of it otherwise.

I wouldn't take Wallace, he hasn't played well all season. McFadden or Murray can kick in an emergency.

Podge_irl · 30-05-2011 5:08pm

Wallace is going to go as third choice 10. Frankly I don't see the point. If it gets down to us having to play Wallace at 10 we're screwed anyway.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 30-05-2011 5:23pm

Think that I might as well have a go at naming my squad.

Props: Healy, Horan, Court, Ross, Hayes.
Hookers: Best, Cronin, Flannery (Varley).
Second Rows: POC, DOC, Cullen, Ryan.
Back Rows: SOB, Ferris (Leamy), Heaslip, Wallace, Jennings.

Scrum Halves: Murray, Reddan, Stringer.
Out Halves: Sexton, ROG.
Centres: BOD, D'Arcy, McFadden.
Back 3s: Earls, Trimble, Jones, Kearney, Bowe.

If we go for a 16/14 split, I'd drop Horan and bring Kearney.

We will need 5 props as, we have both Russia and Italy in our group. Horan will be unpopular after his antics at the weekend but, we need experienced props and he has been playing well.

Sherry is unlucky to miss out; he is a better player than Varley and would, probably, have gotten ahead of Cronin if he had played/started more.

Ryan is in ahead of McLoughlin as, he has been playing brilliantly the last few weeks and we need a lock who can cover 6, not the other way around.

9 is still a hard spot to pick but, I have gone for Stringer as he is a brilliant impact-sub. The other 2 lads are the best 9s in the country. Murray is the only 9 we have who isn't poor in every second game he plays.

Fitz might be unlucky not to travel but, he simply isn't playing well enough. Horgan is very unlucky to miss out but, he is a bit of a one-trick-pony (restarts) and could be exposed for pace against Australia. McFadden should be perfect as a second-choice 14 as, he is much more versatile. I'm not positive about bringing 2 out-and-out 15s but, Kearney does have experience on the wing if needed. If Kearney isn't fit, Horgan deserves to go but, Fitz may edge it for versatility.

Podge_irl · 30-05-2011 5:26pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Kearney does have experience on the wing if needed.

Experience of being rather poor unfortunately though.

I highly doubt both Jones and Kearney will travel. Both realistically only cover 15. If Kearney shows any form in the warm-ups I would expect Jones to miss out.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 30-05-2011 5:30pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Experience of being rather poor unfortunately though.

I highly doubt both Jones and Kearney will travel. Both realistically only cover 15. If Kearney shows any form in the warm-ups I would expect Jones to miss out.

Its still experience nevertheless. I doubt that both of the will travel myself tbh. Kearney is a proven commodity and is very highly rated in the SH but, Jones' defense would edge it for me. Kidney is a huge Jones fan and I'd be surprised to see him snubbed.

Dr.Evil · 30-05-2011 5:33pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I never rated Ryan but he has really made me look the fool. His form in the last month has been exceptional. Hayes has also returned to form and deserves to go to NZ.

FORWARDS (16)

Props: Healy, Court, Ross, Hayes

Hookers: Best, Cronin, Flannery/Varley

Locks: POC, DOC, Cullen, Ryan

Flankers: SOB, Wallace, Ferris/Jennings

8s: Heaslip

BACKS (14)

SHs: Reddan, Murray, Boss

OHs: Sexton, ROG

Centres: D'Arcy, BOD, McFadden

Wing/FB: Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Horgan, Fitzgerald, Kearney/Jones

If you're saying bring either Ferris or Jennings, you only have 15 and can bring another back row. In that case, you could bring both. :P
I quite like the look of that squad. Although Kidney might go with Mick O'Driscoll, he seems to be quite the fan of him. He didn't have a bad season either to be fair. I wish Tuohy hit form throughout this season, he has serious potential..

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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